| Author | Message | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 742 Registered: 1-2003 |
Maybe Tony likes to get a group's feathers ruffled just to watch them fight...This is not the first such post. In the future, not replying to them will make them go away...Whats his next post, 'You 308 owners are a bunch of low-prol, trailer-trash lowlifes'?....What a waste of time  | ||
| Jesse Hoffman (Hoffmeister)
Junior Member Username: Hoffmeister Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2002 |
Uh yeah...back on topic: Check out this poser!  Me | ||
| Mark Lambert (Mlambert890)
Junior Member Username: Mlambert890 Post Number: 94 Registered: 4-2002 |
Arlie... I don't blame anybody for not buying Japanese or German products for whatever reason they may have; it's certainly their perogative. My point is that if every person chose to blacklist anyone they had perceived had wronged them, there would be nearly no international trade and the world economy would be even worse than it is now. Right or wrong, there are a lot of people throughout the world who are of the opinion that the US has hurt them in very recent history. I don't personally agree with that position, obviously, but it's how they feel. We can say we don't give a rats ass about them or what they think, but capitalism needs expanding free markets in order to stay healthy. The fact that the majority of Americans and Europeans were able to see past the sins of WWII and allow Japan and Germany back into the world economy has been beneficial to everyone. Japan has been a great competitor and has forced us to be better while, at the same time, stimulating economic growth and a move towards democracy and capitalism in Asia. Germany has had less impact, but was still instrumental in pushing Europe forward. Luckily, most people are able to move on, so it's kind of a moot point... | ||
| Don Norton (Litig8r)
Junior Member Username: Litig8r Post Number: 164 Registered: 6-2001 |
Robert you are an ignorant tool. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 87 Registered: 5-2003 |
HUmmm... robert is a "retired Musician" from California.. can you all say LIBERAL? Typical sorry piece of crap.. wants the right to drive a Ferrari and then make fun of the GOP that made wealth in america possible. Hey Robert... Why don't you sell the Ferrai and give the money to Greenpeace? | ||
| Tom Lassen (Nzo4re)
New member Username: Nzo4re Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2003 |
Robert, Your so-called "leader with a third grade comprehension" has an MBA from Yale. Just because he has a folksy way of speaking does not mean he's not intelligent. I suppose to you, all people from the south are stupid because of the way they speak. The real reason is, you don't like his politics because he's willing to kick ass. I suppose you'd prefer Wooden Al who would allow the terrorists to blow up the country and give them a welfare check in support of it. Your lack of understanding is apalling...How did you ever have the clarity of mind to buy a Ferrari? | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 976 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob, voted for Gore, didn't ya... :-) Hey, "I report,...you decide" :-) | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 157 Registered: 2-2002 |
I HAD A NEIGHBOR WHO WAS TORTURED IN THE JAPANESE CAMPS, ONLY BUYS JAPANESE CARS NOW, WHEN I ASKED HIM WHY HE SAID LIFE IS TO SHORT TO HOLD GRUDGES.... I THINK THE MOST DANGEROUS COUNTRY IN THE WORLD IS US PERSONALLY. ALL THE MONEY AND POWER AND A LEADER WITH THIRD GRADE COMPREHENSION, AND A UNINFORMED CITIZENS WHO WATCH FOX NEWS AND THINK SDI IS A GOOD IDEA. | ||
| Paul Green (Diesirae)
New member Username: Diesirae Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2001 |
Slavery, Nazis, Facists, Death Camps...So,I guess all this would lead us to the conclusion that we 308 owners are not 'posurs'(?) I'm just trying to figure out if I should keep my car, or are they on to me and I should sell. ;-) | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1274 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nice try with the slavery issue. But that angle has been played a zillion times. But the truth is: There is not one person alive in the United States who owned slaves during the Civil War. And there is not one person alive in the United States who was held as a slave during the Civil War. It's a totally dead issue. On the other hand, there are tens of thousands of people alive who suffered in the concentration camps, saw their friends die in Japanese prison camps, watched their fellow friends and soldiers die in combat at the hands of German and Japanese soldiers. There are still former Nazis hiding out throughout the world. Can't blame anybody for not buying Japanese or German products, especially if they themselves or their family members suffered under the Nazi Swastika or the Rising Sun. | ||
| Mark Lambert (Mlambert890)
Junior Member Username: Mlambert890 Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wow! If Americans should avoid buying Japanese and German products as a result of WWII, should all Brittish products be avoided by Asians as a result of their brutal imperialism in the 19th century? And who, I wonder, would buy *American* products besides Americans? A good portion of the world population perceives the United States to be a dangerous imperial power who conveniently backs brutal dictators when it suits them. Even IN the US, should black Amerians buy American? After all, blacks were forcibly dragged here in chains and enslaved for over a hundred years. Talk about a slippery slope! "Lets hold grudges forever and blame the people of today for the sins of the past" is a reciped for armageddon. But hey, maybe that floats your boat... | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 626 Registered: 11-2002 |
BTW Frank when your done with the Boxer let me know, mabey we can make a deal! | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 625 Registered: 11-2002 |
Fair enough! | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 593 Registered: 4-2002 |
Kenny, My statement in no way supports the Japanese. I find the behaviour, Govt. santioned and supported with deliberate orders, of that Nation during WWII to be the most henious and atrocious in history. I would describe the Japanese of that period as nothing less than barbaric. Of coarse the SS were the same... US Marine soldiers in the pacific campaigns typically did not take prisoners. It was no quarter battle on both sides. Japanese soldiers fought until the death not only due to Bushido code, but because they had no other choice. I am not passing judgement on that reality at all. In fact, given the realities of the Bataan death march and typical Japanese treatment of prisoners and civilians I dont blame the Marines. My point however is that the horror of war will often push even the "good guys" into doing horrible things. Its easy for us to sit in our living rooms passing judgement.... we werent there. I view the US WWII veterans as heros of the absolute first magnatude. I am awed by their experiences and deeds. I also have tremendous respect for many historical German WWII veterans. They fought for their nation through a sense of duty and honor just as most US vets did. I have actually met Gunther Rall at a Smithsonian symposium. Incredible guy. He is very good friends with many US WWII fighter pilot veterans. He also used to give lectures at US Bases on tactics and flying. The man was one of the best fighter pilots to ever live. The war is over. Its ok to realise than an old enemy can today be a friend. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2436 Registered: 9-2001 |
Charles, I LOVE Dinos. But, I plan to drive my old Fiat Boxer for a few years and then maybe buy a 550 or 575. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 623 Registered: 11-2002 |
Whats this Frank wants a Dino? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2435 Registered: 9-2001 |
Remember Enzo made machine parts for the Mussolina government which was part of the Axis which including Hitler and the Nazis. So , sell your Ferraris now so the market will be flooded and prices will drop and I can buy me a 550 or 575 for $100k or so. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1271 Registered: 5-2002 |
"you pretty much must include every non-jewish German who lived. Thats basically nuts." Crippled B-17 and B-24 bomber pilots knew when they were flying over German soil even at low altitute because of the constant small arms fire they drew from the ground as they limped along at tree top level trying to get back to England. They also knew when they were over friendly soil because people would stand on the roof tops and wave and cheer as they passed over. The average German, including Porsche was behind Uncle Adolph. Guys like Porsche could have escaped early on if they had wanted to. I don't have my reference material in front of me, but I believe that Zora Arkus Duntov, the father of the Corvette and it's high performance heritage, escaped from Nazi Germany before things got bad. How come Porsche couldn't do the same? Because those Nazi war contracts were just too fat and juicy to run away from! I wonder if he was having dinner with the Feurer and Fatso Georing while Doctor Mengele was performing hideous "experiments" on those concentration camp prisoners. As Kenny said: "Porsche knew exactly what was going on, yet continued his work for the Fuhrer.. In fact, he submitted one of 3 major designs which later materialized as the Tiger Tank, one of the most feared pieces of arsenal the nazis which rolled out in 1942... He was also responsible for work with tracking devices utilized in Panzer tanks and other military vehicles in WW2.. " Just more of the truth. My point in general? Have you ever wondered why many older Americans of the WWII generation will not buy German or Japanese vehicles or merchandise? It's because they haven't conveniently forgotten the past. (By the way, I drive American.) If I were to buy a foreign car, it would most likely be a Ferrari. At least Ferrari wasn't rubbing elbows with Uncle Adolph. And any argument made concerning the Japanese or their treatment rings hollow. When you attack the U.S. Navy in a blatant act of war, you get what you deserve. The Japanese naval commander said it best himself: " I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant". He knew they had bit off more than they could chew and would pay for it after the smoke cleared. The Japanese were just a bunch of conquering thugs who got their first dose of ultimate justice on August 6th, 1945. The second dose came on August 9th, 1945. A few days later, game over. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 749 Registered: 4-2002 |
****Warning attempt at humor***** "...WHO was helping the Nazis..." The World Health Organization was helping the Natzis? | ||
| Keith Maxwell (Keith_maxwell)
Junior Member Username: Keith_maxwell Post Number: 94 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ok, Enzo and Ferdinand were facists and supported their respective governments before and during a time of war. Good thing we won that war or, in addition to making lousy cars; Ford, GM, Chrysler, et all would be war criminals too. Stupid. Simply stupid. I've owned 3 Porsches, a 911sc, a Boxster and a 3.2 Carrera. The SC was a fun car that was easy to drive fast and very hard to drive REALLY FAST. The Boxster was so civilized that it was uninspiring. The Carrera 3.2 is a sweet handling car with the same unforgiving trait that is shared with every rear engined Ferrari; if you get into a corner too fast, stay on the loud pedal - whatever happens will be better than if you lift. Simple. Very simple. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 612 Registered: 11-2002 |
You guys are unbelievable! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2429 Registered: 9-2001 |
What else could a company do when it's government demanded that it build something ? American companies are still building products for the USA government even after Bush had all those poor Iragis murdered for no good reason. I bet they are even building WMD for our government as we speak which Bush will sell to another dictator who is now our friend who will be our enemy in a few years. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 611 Registered: 11-2002 |
You guys just don't understand Arlie. This is how he gets his kicks. He is just playing with you and you are all doing exactley what he wants you to do. Nice job Arlie as usual. I particularly liked this one. "Imagine that! A Porsche can handle well. Amazing what kind of excellent handling car can be developed by Nazi ruled technology in Adolph Hitler's WWII Germany. (Didn't the Porsche powerplants get their start from the Volkswagen, i.e., "The People's Car" which was developed at the insistance of Adolph Hitler himself?) Or was it from Mercedes Benz technology which helped provide transportation for the entire Nazi war machine? What a wonderful automotive heritage! Forget those Ferraris built upon a legacy of Enzo's racing history. I want a Porsche that was pioneered by Uncle Adolph's twisted military industrial complex. (SARCASM SWITCH OFF) " I know you knew that was going to start a riot. | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Junior Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 81 Registered: 9-2001 |
Terry- Your statement regarding Ferdinand Porsche's involvement with the third reich is only partially correct... Porsche knew exactly what was going on, yet continued his work for the Fuhrer.. In fact, he submitted one of 3 major designs which later materialized as the Tiger Tank, one of the most feared pieces of arsenal the nazis which rolled out in 1942... He was also responsible for work with tracking devices utilized in Panzer tanks and other military vehicles in WW2.. Your statement regarding the Japanese is a rather curious one... Being of korean descent, my parents still would never consider a Japanese car, and I was always discouraged from purchasing goods which originated from Japan.. As one of my asian friends who happens to be chinese put it... "at least the Germans know how to apologize" | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 287 Registered: 1-2003 |
they're not "posur's". | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 288 Registered: 8-2002 |
Enzo manufacutured engines for training aircraft in WW2 and machine tools, he moved to Maranello in'43 he had a cherry orchard there, as a result of the Industrial Decentralization Law, he bought land to build the factory some specualted the Facist Gvt put up some of the money | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 592 Registered: 4-2002 |
The French locked up Ferdinand Porsche. The locked him up because he refused do provide designs and assistance to Puegeot (sp) to build a french peoples car. He was also basically being held for ransom, at a figure the Porsche family could not pay. Another point... Ferry Porsche, the son, founded the modern Porsche company while his father was in prison. This company was related to the pre-war Porsche activities only by family. The 356 was built with little to no direct involvment of Ferdinand, so your "direct Hitler link" exists only in your warped fantasys. A couple of other minor points: When Porsche did work on the peoples car program that became the volkswagen, it was 1934. This was a time when persecution of the Jews had not picked up steam and the German people were grateful to Hitler for the economic miracle sweeping Germany. To condemn Porsche or any other German for working within the Nazi system during this period assumes they were able to see the future and should be judged on this basis. In other words... its stupid. How do you feel about the Japanese? I am assuming you own nothing made in Germany or by a German owned company since you hold all German related things to be Nazi. Do you own anything made in Japan? Remember, the Japanese killed more Chinese and other Asian civilians than the Germans killed Jews. Nanking ring any bells? How about the Japanese treatment of US POW's? Have you ever traced the background of companies like Mitsubishi, Nissan, Fuji, or Toyota? As to opinions of families of people killed.... how do you think Japanese families feel about their soldiers killed in the Pacific. You do know about US Marine corps prisoner policy? Ever hear how many Japanese prisoners were taken on Okinawa or Saipan? Yes, though its not talked about much the murder of the unarmed was common on all sides. Hey, you get no arguement from me relative to Hitler or Tojo being horrible people. I also think many where really were guilty of war crimes skated by after the war. However, to include the Porsche family means you pretty much must include every non-jewish German who lived. Thats basically nuts. Its really just more of the deliberatly inflamatory nonsense posts that your becoming well known for. I am not going to respond further. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1032 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm telling you. The more you argue the less credibility you have. Stop it, please, hahaha. We had a little fun exchanging posts, but now you're running the risk of REALLY looking like a horse's ass. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1031 Registered: 11-2002 |
I wasn't even looking at this thread after my last post, but I was drawn to it since Terry had posted. Someone who's opinion I respect. Arlie, Really man, game over. Enough is enough man. Both men had involvement with the Nazis OK? By your argument, why does it matter one helped less than the other? Hahaha. Guilty is guilty my friend. DON'T get a Porsche and DON'T get a Ferrari. OK, problem resolved. Enjoy the chat. Cheers | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1270 Registered: 5-2002 |
Terry, I think the fact that the French locked up Porsche for 2 years pretty much speaks for itself as to WHO was helping the Nazis. As for some general who shot down 275 allied planes, wonder how their families felt about him after the war? Did they look upon him as a great aviator, or just another instrument of Hitler's twisted dream of world domination who helped murder their relatives? As for "ignoring the bigger picture truth", truth is, six million people died in the concentration camps along with millions of others who had to fight Hitler's regime. That is the ultimate truth. As long as we're talking Nazi history and how their involvement was conveniently ignored in later years; don't forget Werner Von Braun and how his involvement in the V2 rocket program was downplayed so that he could help develope the Saturn V moon rocket. I'm sure that a lot of former military people weren't too crazy about a former Nazi scientist standing in a Houston, Texas mission control room in 1969. "millions of Porsche loving people would agree you have extremely poor taste in automobiles." Oh really. Well, millions of mechanics would say that Ferraris are extremely poor automobiles with their constant finicky nature and expensive mechanical upkeep problems. And doesn't history tell us that Enzo didn't even like the idea of having to sell cars and put up with customers in order to finance his racing exploits? So do as Enzo would have wanted, get rid of all those Ferrari road cars that were sold to non-racing civilians. What do us non-racing types know anyway. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 591 Registered: 4-2002 |
Arlie, Your history of Porsche is blatantly false, picking out snippets to use for a skewed perspective while ignoring the bigger picture truth. Your posts here, as in many other threads do nothing but incite controversy for the sake of controversy. You clearly know nothing about Porsche, have probably never driven one and millions of Porsche loving people would agree you have extremely poor taste in automobiles. I have a suggestion for you. Why dont you go hang out on one of the many corvette boards? Its been made totally clear, by YOU, over the past months that a Ferrari is not a car that will make you happy. I dont understand why you stay around here given your attitude and general life outlook. I guess you feel guys like General Gunther Rall were also nazi filth who should have been executed after the war? HE did shoot down 275 allied planes after all. | ||
| Anka (Mechanka)
New member Username: Mechanka Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2003 |
Guys - WAKE UP!! This Tony dude is just an instigator of trouble. His questions have absolutely no content and value - It seems like he posts and watches what happens - Don't turn on each other and give this idiot the satisfaction. P.s: Tony Roberts = Michael Alpert - Same guy!! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1268 Registered: 5-2002 |
"Many, many English firms made a fortune, er, I guess Rolls Royce would be one of them ... also." I have no problem with English firms like Rolls Royce making a fortune. The English government wasn't murdering millions of people in concentration camps like Nazi Germany was. "Lets imagine you are a budding designer/engineer and the current government/president comes along and gives you the chance of a life time to design the ultimate vehicle ... are you going to turn it down. The other side is that he probably would have been shot of something if he had not played ball." A man with Porshces wealth could have easily escaped from Germany like thousands of others did before Hitler's stranglehold became complete. He obviously did not want to leave because those Nazi military contracts were pretty juicy. "Lets also remember he designed the Auto Union racing cars also ... and yes with money from the German government, just like Ferrari probably gets some money from the Italian government now." Comparing Porsche receiving money from the butchering Nazi Germany government and Ferrari receiving money from today's Italian government is an absurd comparison between apples and elephants. And the craziest statement of all: "Unless Porsche pulled the trigger on a gun and shot or harmed somebody personally you cannot pin this on the guy or company. He was just doing his job like many are now." That's a typical Nazi excuse: "I was just following orders; just doing my job." That excuse didn't hold water at the Nuremburg war trials and plenty of Nazi collaborators did their final "rope dance" because of that line of thinking. All except Porsches Picture Buddy, Fatso Herman Goering, who cheated the hangman by taking a cyanide capsule. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 84 Registered: 5-2003 |
Also.. Enzo was very pissed off when a nice group of Nazi's came and cleaned out his machine shops of all of the machine tools. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 83 Registered: 5-2003 |
BTW.. have to agreee with Taek... Enzo was always worried that after the war he would be branded a supporter of el duce. Read Brock Yates wonderful book | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arlie, Come on, while it 100% correct that VW started as a directive by Adolf Hilter to create his people car, many many people made lots of money from wars. Many, many English firms made a fortune, er, I guess Rolls Royce would be one of them ... also. Lets imagine you are a budding designer/engineer and the current government/president comes along and gives you the chance of a life time to design the ultimate vehicle ... are you going to turn it down. The other side is that he probably would have been shot of something if he had not played ball. Lets also remember he designed the Auto Union racing cars also ... and yes with money from the German government, just like Ferrari probably gets some money from the Italian government now. I would like to see you turn down the ultimate job when Bush turns up at your door with everything you need, etc. because you do not agree with his parties political direction. Unless Porsche pulled the trigger on a gun and shot or harmed somebody personally you cannot pin this on the guy or company. He was just doing his job like many are now. Yes not the greatest start to a company, but you have to admit that his execution of Hilters people car was extremely well done ... and the stupid British and Americans after the war that looked at the VW Beetle and thought it would amount to nothing and thus did not take it over, well how silly do they look now. Pete | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1265 Registered: 5-2002 |
Nice try yourself Taek. Here's another ironic link. http://www.carstreet.com/fullstory.asp?code=296 It describes the Porsche Volkswagen developement. Also noted that Porsche was held in a French prison for 2 years after the war. Think that had anything to do with pro-Nazi activities? Interesting that nobody held Enzo in prison. Also note on that same page the story of Enzos prancing horse logo. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1020 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hahaha. Good one Jerry. I'm bored of this too. Nice try Arlie. Porsches are cool, Ferraris are cool, the sun will shine tomorrow even if clouds block its view. Cheers | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 707 Registered: 7-2001 |
I wouldn't have a Porsche shoved up my ass. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1018 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ferrari's factories were not commandeered. They were turned into war machines with Enzo's blessing. Stop it. The more you type the more credibility you lose. Ferrari did what he did to keep his dream alive. Porsche did what he did to keep his own dream alive. The VW was conceived by Hitler, but the plans for a rear engined sports car was in Porsche's mind way before. Stop it. Porsche parts and machines were used because they were reliable and Hitler saw value in their reliability and ruggedness over Mercedes and even the fledgeling BMW. Ferraris were finicky machines and racing machines. Not suited for the rigors of war. Rest assured a lot of the machining in those factories produced parts that eventually became war instruments. They just never put a cavallino on them, that's all. Also, if Wayne's around, there is documentation of one of Fangios wins under the Scuderia. It proudly has the colors of the Mussolini regime. Cheers | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1264 Registered: 5-2002 |
Snore... "With the second world war taking place, the car racing battles were stopped, and Ferrari became involved with war production". So how were pre-war or post-war Ferrari automobiles a product of any association with the Fascist regime? He was already making cars before the war and continued to do so after the war until his death. But the Porsche automobile owes its very existance to the directives of Adolph Hitler. And Porsche willingly lept to the challenge to construct a "people's car" which became the Volkswagen and ultimately led to the Porsche which lives on today. Porsche's legacy can be traced straight back to Adolph Hitler. Ferrari just happened to own a car factory that was commandered by a dictator for it's own uses. Apples and oranges. Anxiously awaiting those references to Ferrari military vehicles. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1015 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yawn... "Mussolini seized the government on January 3, 1925 and led through a totalitarian form of government. He was in control of every aspect of the government. Ferrari was awarded an honor from the Fascist regime of Cavaliere dell'ordine della Corona d'Italia and elevated to Commendatore (Nye, 1997, p.12)." "With the second world war taking place, the car racing battles were stopped, and Ferrari became involved with war production (Crow, 1981, p.44). During the war, the allies bombed his shops and he moved the factory to Maranello (Crow, 1981, p.44). After the war, Ferrari was shunned for his "reputedly too-enthusiastic support of the old Mussolini regime" (Nye, 1997, p.12). For people that knew Ferrari, this was not surprising." Excerpts from Terri Wagner, Univ of Wisconsin. There are pictures of Enzo standing with Il Duce by the way, but sincerely don't have time to looking for these. Funny how is fondly remembered as Il Commendatore, a title given to him by Mussolini. Porsches are nice, Ferraris are nice. Sorry to open ugly doors here Arlie, but I don't like to mix politics with motorsports. You've kindly done that. Cheers | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1263 Registered: 5-2002 |
Here's an excellent link showing the proud heritage of Porsche complete with a photo: http://www.vwheritage.co.uk/history1.asp Note the photo of Porsche with his buddy Adolph Hitler. And also note what appears to be Herman Goering, Luftwaffe Commander on the right. What a proud heritage. Porsche proudly standing between the most notorious mass murderer in human history and his air force commander. Makes all the Porsche owners feel all warm inside I bet. Especially notworthy is this line: "Besides cars, the factory was also used to repair German airplanes, make stoves for the soldiers on Eastern front and to produce V1 flying bombs." How many Porsche owners are proud of their "Little Buzz Bombs"??? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1013 Registered: 11-2002 |
Both went for it for the love of innovation and racing. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1012 Registered: 11-2002 |
Arlie, Read up on Ferrari history. You will find that Mussolini helped Ferrari out quite a bit. Something which he was deeply saddened by after seeing the results of Benito's rule. Both automakers were in a sort of damned if you do and damned if you don't situation. Cheers | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1262 Registered: 5-2002 |
Taek, would you please direct me to any web site or reference book that will show any illustration of any Fascist or Nazi military vehicle with the name Ferrari emblazened upon it? Or any WWII military vehicle that was built by the Ferrari factory? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1009 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jeff, Hold on, I'm playing with Arlie right now. And I'm talking about Porsche in general, not just 911s. I too have owned Porsches and am a current owner. Good cars. Cheers | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 82 Registered: 5-2003 |
"It wouldn't handle like a Porsche. Few things do. " Taek... having owned both a 911sc and a 930 I feel I have the background to comment. The 911 Sc was tail heavy by design and the 930 was almost lethal by design. During my Porsche days the "drivers" took great pride in their ability to control a car with such an awful weight split. I was always amazed that any drinver would want a car that you have to adjust your skills ( up and down) to adapt to. Are they fast ? somewhat. My 930 was damn quick. And the Sc was okay. But nothing comapred to the balance and handling of my Esprit. It has the speed and the handling to smack the 911's and does it with 2 less cylinders. AS for the "new" Porsches... I am not amazed that you can take 4 decades and improve a car. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1008 Registered: 11-2002 |
Keep stretching Arlie. Dig into those books first though. Both are excellent cars. Politics aside. Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1007 Registered: 11-2002 |
So you prefer Mussolini's machinery? He did help in keeping Ferrari afloat you know. A black mark in Ferrari history for sure. Cheers | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1261 Registered: 5-2002 |
Imagine that! A Porsche can handle well. Amazing what kind of excellent handling car can be developed by Nazi ruled technology in Adolph Hitler's WWII Germany. (Didn't the Porsche powerplants get their start from the Volkswagen, i.e., "The People's Car" which was developed at the insistance of Adolph Hitler himself?) Or was it from Mercedes Benz technology which helped provide transportation for the entire Nazi war machine? What a wonderful automotive heritage! Forget those Ferraris built upon a legacy of Enzo's racing history. I want a Porsche that was pioneered by Uncle Adolph's twisted military industrial complex. (SARCASM SWITCH OFF) | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1005 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>(desperately trying to prolong any possibility of an anti-Porsche thread.)<< At the risk of sounding stupid? Go ahead. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1260 Registered: 5-2002 |
Why is "handling" the determining factor of whether a car is "good" or not? Bonneville salt flat racers and dragsters can't handle worth a hoot, but they still do 300 mph and more. Can a Porsche do that? (desperately trying to prolong any possibility of an anti-Porsche thread.) | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1004 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>I could drop a 426 hemi in a Ford Edsel and make it move fast.<< Arlie, It wouldn't handle like a Porsche. Few things do. Cheers | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Intermediate Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 1259 Registered: 5-2002 |
Porsches look like an overgrown Volkswagen. The resemblence is close enough that I never understood what the attraction was about Porsches. So what if they perform well. I could drop a 426 hemi in a Ford Edsel and make it move fast. Would that make it a desirable car? Still ugly. Just like a Porsche. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1002 Registered: 11-2002 |
Keith, I agree with a lot of what you are saying... As for Ferrari owners not wanting Porsches... http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/266452.html?1055282908 Sorry, had to do it. Neither is better. It's whatever suits your needs at the time or whatever you feel like. Both fantastic marques. If you haven't guessed I own a Porsche too. Cheers | ||
| Keith Maxwell (Keith_maxwell)
Junior Member Username: Keith_maxwell Post Number: 92 Registered: 5-2003 |
Don, I own a 911 - yeah, only 6 cylinders. I bought it in lieu of a Mondial 3.2. Seems I met too many Ferrari owners that blew their wad on the car and couldn't afford to drive and maintain them. Those folks were poseurs. As in all things automotive, there are true enthusiasts that love the cars; Porsches, Ferraris, Loti, and Lambos; and there are jerk offs with just enough cash to buy the car and build a shrine to the marque. Whatever car you love, and damn do I love Ferrari and Porsche both (is this infidelity) - enjoy it. Any passion - for cars, for women, for wine, spoils with arguement over which is best. | ||
| peter james moran (Pjm)
Junior Member Username: Pjm Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2002 |
I believe its posers (poseurs - tr� sheik, no?) Never the less posers come in all shapes and sizes. An owner who acts like he's some great driver (Mario Andretti, or Michael Schumacher, etc�) because they own a Ferrari weather a 308, 333sp or 512lm is a (Ferrari) poser. And there are many kinds of posers - just go to a (good) coffee shop on a Sunday and see all shiny clean mud free Mt. Bikers, or the leather clad roadracers with nubs on the edges of their tires, etc� Anyone can buy almost anything, but ownership comes from a different place. If you buy a 308 because you like the lines, what to concourse a Ferrari, or love the marquee, or drive the wheels off it, or just cruising it, you are an owner. But if you think buying a (any) Ferrari (or any make) makes you a better person, just to pick up chicks or implies your status in the world you are a poser. Tony, your friend sounds like the poser as he looks down upon others This was funny, Don- cracked me up! �Tell your bud that the difference between Ferrari Owners and Porsche Owners is that Ferrari Owners don't want Porsches.� | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 996 Registered: 11-2002 |
<--- Blown out of his socks here... 308s are awesome. I want one. I don't care what people think of it. It drives nice, makes nice sounds, feels nice, and looks nice. Cheers | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 590 Registered: 4-2002 |
Well, if a 308 is a poseur car, the general public has not been informed. My 308 is still laid up, but I have been driving the Daytona every day. It does not garner the attention and comments the 308 did. Many people ask of the Daytona what is it, or comment that its a beautiful car. The 308 however tends to literally draw crowds at the gas station. EVERYONE recognizes it, lusted after it when they were young and is VERY enthusiastic to see one. The Daytona seems to either get little to no reaction from Joe Public, but Mr. Car Guy is blown out of his socks. If someone is wanting a Ferrari just to get attention and a reaction from others.... buy a 308 for sure. No point spending more, because the general public views the 308 as THE Ferrari. Hea.. the bonus is they are great driving cars too! | ||
| Stephen A. Thompson, II (Sat4re)
New member Username: Sat4re Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2003 |
It's a little known fact that in the mid-seventies Ferrari set-out to design what they then termed "designo especialisto PF-308," otherwise known as Poseur Ferrari 308. Ferrari knew that if they could come up with a world class sports car to replace the infamous 246 and play little brother to the BB, that 20 plus years later, people would hate it and snicker at those who own it. This way, the company could keep up its image as producer of fine 12 cylinder cars that everyone loves, but always keep observers on their toes wondering what the hell they're doing developing incredible 8 cylinder cars that are truly fantastic. You morons out there who disrespect the 308...what freak'n planet do you come from? I suppose it's not cool to own something you want or have dreamed of owning since childhood? My mind must be warped! I must sell my 308 now and buy a 360, 'cause that's what's cool now, and hopefully noone will notice that its the same car the 308 was 20+ years ago. Idiots! I think you all are intellectual poseurs. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 596 Registered: 1-2002 |
Tony, Why don't you have your "friends" log on so we can deal with them directly. Dave | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 725 Registered: 2-2001 |
I just don't get all of this knocking the 308s. It is a 25 year old design that still looks fresh. People all of them time are suprised when I tell them it is an 83. For its time it was a top performer and is still fast enough to be fun and get you into trouble. It has great sound and feel. It is a great all around sports car. Evertime I drive it I get thumbs ups, and people asking about it and saying nice things. IMHO it is still one of the best looking cars on the street. I love it and wouldn't trade it. | ||
| Robert W. Garven Jr. (Robertgarven)
Junior Member Username: Robertgarven Post Number: 150 Registered: 2-2002 |
Dear Friends, I was in a heavy metal band for 22 years. Bands like Motely Crue, Ratt etc we called posers as they wore womens make-up and bad hair days,si if you see any one of these guys in a 308 he is probably a poser, however if you see this guy in a 308 he is definitely not a poser! :-)  Rob ducking back to the tech area! | ||
| Don Norton (Litig8r)
Junior Member Username: Litig8r Post Number: 157 Registered: 6-2001 |
Tell your bud that the difference between Ferrari Owners and Porsche Owners is that Ferrari Owners don't want Porsches. | ||
| Steve M (Steve308gtsi)
Junior Member Username: Steve308gtsi Post Number: 91 Registered: 5-2002 |
Some how this Tony guy keeps starting all these ridiculous threads like Ferrari vs. Corvette where another person he knows thinks Ferrari guys are snobs. Now another friend says we are posurs in this thread. I think these threads are created just to agitate people. I don't beleive it at all. | ||
| David McGee (Damcgee)
Junior Member Username: Damcgee Post Number: 66 Registered: 2-2003 |
I don't understand all these threads lately about 3x8 ownership stigmas?!?! Do I think 20 years from now people will look down on me because I own a Modena? The more pertinent question is, "Will I care?" No, I won't. I'll say to myself, "I've dreamed/lusted of this car for 25 years, screw them" If I was a 3x8 now, this would be my opinion as well. Opinions are like A**holes, everyone's got one, ad most are sh*tty. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2617 Registered: 2-2001 |
what does your friend drive ? Maybe he's just jealous | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 423 Registered: 9-2002 |
O.k now my head is really starting to hurt. What the hell is with all this one-up-manship lately? Who the fu$k cares!! Drive what you like. And don't feel you have to defend yourself to people who have small minds!! I know multi millioniares who drive around in beat-up Fords for crying out loud. They have know interest what so ever in fancy cars,even though they could afford to write a check for ten brand new ones...they choose not to. Tell your friend to get his life in order, and to stop worrying about what other people do with their time and money. It's none of his fu$king buisness. He must have low selfesteam to compare himself to sombody he does not know just based on the car they drive. Your buddy should just Fuc$k the hell off. | ||
| Keith Verges (Kverges)
New member Username: Kverges Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2003 |
I am looking for a Ferrari and yes, part of it is poseur factor. The appearance, sound, panache and exclusivity is part of the allure of the Ferrari. Guys who won't admit that their fancy/exotic car appeals to their inner poseur must also have hairy palms ;-). I have no expectation that the car will be objectively better or faster than other cars I have, but it will be a Ferrari, something I imagine all auto enthusiasts have always (at least quietly) lusted after. | ||
| Tony Roberts (Pantera)
Junior Member Username: Pantera Post Number: 72 Registered: 6-2003 |
Dave, I thought the whole idea about this forum was for people to give their opinion. If you don't want to hear different view's why do you log in! | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 595 Registered: 1-2002 |
Tony, I second Stu.... Who here really gives a crap what your friend thinks. Dave | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 452 Registered: 4-2001 |
Tony - what's your point? | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 309 Registered: 3-2002 |
LOL Terry! You tell him. Air-cooled flat-six's only right? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 583 Registered: 4-2002 |
Geeeeeeeee accusing a 308 owner of being a poseur when he drives the ultimate poseur mobile himself! Tell him to buy a REAL Porsche! Dang 911 with a water pump driving soccer mom bedding wannabe I bet! | ||
| Paul Green (Diesirae)
New member Username: Diesirae Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2001 |
Tony, glad to hear it. I guess given a large enough sample size every driver/car on the road is a poseurs in someone's eyes. | ||
| Tony Roberts (Pantera)
Junior Member Username: Pantera Post Number: 63 Registered: 6-2003 |
DR.Ken, Your probably right! | ||
| Tony Roberts (Pantera)
Junior Member Username: Pantera Post Number: 62 Registered: 6-2003 |
Paul, I used to own a 308 and I enjoyed the car immensly. That is just his opinion not mine! | ||
| Paul Green (Diesirae)
New member Username: Diesirae Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2001 |
Knocking 308s and their owners again... I took my 308 out this weekend on our local club drive and had a great time in a great car. You know, I didn't really wonder or care about what others thought. Did you buy your 355 (or your friend his 996 cab) so that others would think you were legit? If so, what a colossal waste of resources. | ||
| Dr. Ken Lee (Kenster888)
Junior Member Username: Kenster888 Post Number: 85 Registered: 4-2003 |
Time for new friends. | ||
| Ken Thomas (Future328driver)
Member Username: Future328driver Post Number: 356 Registered: 12-2001 |
if you friend is not a Ferrari owner, then maybe he should keep his mouth shut. | ||
| Terry L (Terrykarr)
Junior Member Username: Terrykarr Post Number: 145 Registered: 12-2002 |
Poseurs-insincere person, or poser- pretend to be what one is not. Posurs- as best I can tell, is not a word. With that said, what the hell is he talking about or does he know? | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 275 Registered: 8-2002 |
Doesn't sound like he has any taste I like Panteras also | ||
| Tony Roberts (Pantera)
Junior Member Username: Pantera Post Number: 61 Registered: 6-2003 |
He drive's a 996 cab! | ||
| Tony Roberts (Pantera)
Junior Member Username: Pantera Post Number: 60 Registered: 6-2003 |
He think's Pantera's are pieces of ••••. I happen to really like Pantera's! | ||
| Ken Thomas (Future328driver)
Member Username: Future328driver Post Number: 354 Registered: 12-2001 |
Does your friend OWN a Ferrari? | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 274 Registered: 8-2002 |
Does he think guys in Panteras are poseurs? | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 976 Registered: 10-2001 |
I'm a poser in my Honda. I wish I had an Acura. | ||
| Erik R. K. Jonsson (Gamester)
Member Username: Gamester Post Number: 331 Registered: 11-2000 |
I think this is a lame question. Do you enjoy driving Ferrari- Hell Yes. Should you care what others think? Hell No. Agreeing what Louis stated... stop initiating lame posts. If you don't have anything valid/useful/positive to say, don't say anything at all. | ||
| Louis Goldstein (Lgoldstein)
New member Username: Lgoldstein Post Number: 44 Registered: 8-2002 |
This, like all of the threads Tony initiates, is going to grow quickly. | ||
| Barney Guzzo (Trinacria)
Member Username: Trinacria Post Number: 263 Registered: 8-2002 |
Can you be more specific about what he means? | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
Junior Member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2002 |
I drive a dodge viper, and I'm interested in a 308. Does that make me a poser? For going backwards in cost? LOL MM | ||
| "The Don" (Mlemus)
Senior Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 5180 Registered: 8-2002 |
Your friend has Ferrari envy. Many 308 owners have other higher dollar ferrari's | ||
| Tony Roberts (Pantera)
Junior Member Username: Pantera Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2003 |
A friend of mine think's that people who drive 308's are posurs. I told him that this is not true. What do you think? |