| Author | Message | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 406 Registered: 3-2001 |
Brian, It's obvious from your comments to Manu that you are an accomplished driver....I suspect most people on this board aren't (myself included)...To be fair to the Ferrari instructors they are targeting (at least on the Fiorano Course, enthusiastic drivers)....They let you do the course in normal mode ASR on/off, sport mode ASR on/off. Given the skill level of their clients, the fastest times are almost always with sport mode on & ASR off. The way the 360 handles on the edge is known to be a handful (I don't know if you've seen the video of Schumacher driving a Challenge car, when he nearly 'loses' it....He even makes a comment about being careful when driving the car near the limit as its difficult to handle). | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 147 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hubert, I was being *ironic*. It was a rhetorical question. My point was that F1 banned those devices because the cars were too easy to drive and too fast. By banning them, the cars slowed down, drivers made more mistakes, and costs were reduced (until, of course, a car spun off into the armco). So we're in agreement.... vty, --Dennis | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 904 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dennis: I think b/c you used the word "slower" I got the impression that you meant, well, that the cars went slower b/c they were hindered by ABS and TC. Why'd you say, slower? | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 145 Registered: 2-2003 |
Um, uh, Hugh, I'm a little confused. When I wrote, ">>Don't believe me? Ask yourself, why did Formula 1 **BAN** ABS and slip control? Because it was making the cars *slower*?<<", I was trying to make the point that driving with ABS and slip control will make the car faster and safer in F1... I think that's the same point you were making. So I dunno why you replied, "This is utterly false." ? | ||
| Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2002 |
Manu said "I jump onto the brakes at the last second (let the ABS kick in) wrench the wheel in..." I think you answered your own question with this statement. First apply the brakes, then apply the pressure. I believe you were simply asking too much of the front tires. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 894 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mitch: you're comments also depend on, mostly, driver skill; experienced driver: ASR off; novice: ASR on. I've seen a lot of novice drivers pitch their cars into the pit walls b/c they put a wheel, or two of, plowed back on the track, and had the car snap backwards -- inside of the track. I think it's just a matter of people overdriving their cars b/c they've got too much confidence in the electronic aids. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 765 Registered: 4-2002 |
An interesting conversation occurred the previous weekend at TWS. We were discussing ASR systems and crashes. It seems to us that crashes are different with ASR than without. In a car without ASR the typical crash is a spin off the outside of the track. In a car with ASR, the typical crash is a spin, caught by ASR, that then throws the car towards the inside of the track. Given the typical (semi favorable) runoff areas outside of typical turns, and less favorable runoff areas towards the insides, ASR may be adding to the expense of crash repairs at track facillities. In addition, drivers of such cars may never know the true joy of piloting a car in big lurid 4-wheel drifts! | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 888 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>Don't believe me? Ask yourself, why did Formula 1 **BAN** ABS and slip control? Because it was making the cars *slower*?<< This is utterly false. ABS was banned simply b/c it was seen as an unfair advantage; one of the reason F1 cas have multi, multi piston calipers is to provide modulation to foster threshold breaking as if it were ABS equipped; i.e., no lock-up. Cars (race or street) will always be quicker, and safer, 'round a circuit than non-ABS. And, cars with TC have always (at least in F1) been easier to drive, and quicker... per the comments of DC "... you turn in, and keep the throttle pegged, TC does the rest..." | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 345 Registered: 3-2002 |
Agreed. ABS is relatively simple for a device to do really well... and a good system can brake each wheel separately, making it way better than even the best possible human who has just one brake pedal.
Agreed. Some are useless, some overly aggressive, some pretty good in some positions. But...
Not any system on a road car that I am aware of. Can you name any car where top-notch track drivers leave the system on? The systems are designed to keep average drivers out of trouble... but to drive fast around a track, you have to get the car into slip angles where normal drivers would necessarily be in trouble... the system *should* be keeping you out of the very zone you want to be in on the track (but not on the road). Hence...
Its definitely *possible* to build an ASR system that is faster... I don't think they exist yet... the problem is far more complex than the ABS problem... HOWEVER, if you invest enough in it, it could get much better, especially considering that it could brake each wheel independently. I think that's why they banned ASR... they see people investing HUGE $$$ trying to get there. They ban ABS because its too easy to cheat and slip in ASR or launch control variants once ABS is in there. Brian | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 141 Registered: 2-2003 |
Two quick points: 1. Cars with ABS will always be faster than non-ABS cars around a given road course. A good, modern ABS system today will, simply put, allow you to out-brake even yourself with the ABS turned off. If you're good enough to threshold-brake, the ABS never intervenes. If you're not quite perfect, the ABS saves you. It's also very good for allowing you to brake as hard as possible while downshifting, and also makes trail braking easier. 2. Not all "ASR" systems are created equal. Some cars with some systems will be FASTER at some courses with the system turned on. Theoretically, you'll be faster with a good ASR system activated -- think about it. The computer can modulate the power to the rear wheel at the very threshold of slip, so you'll get MAXIMUM power to the wheels; a human literally cannot improve upon it. Of course, the reason why many cars are slower is because some ASR-type systems are relatively crude (for $$ reasons), while others are much more "child-proof" -- designed to keep the driver away from the edge of the performance envelope. Don't believe me? Ask yourself, why did Formula 1 **BAN** ABS and slip control? Because it was making the cars *slower*? Having said all that, it's more fun driving without ASR/TC, most of the time, on the track. I enjoy balancing the car with the throttle, even when I misjudge it and get the tail a bit loose. OTOH, I don't enjoy driving without ABS, as I tend to be a late and heavy braker and don't enjoy flat spotting my tires. Just my $.02. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 754 Registered: 2-2002 |
Very interesting feedback guys... the opportunities to drive 360s are frequent but in very few am I given the chance to REALLY drive 'em - I'll certainly bear what you guys have said!! It's always said that the fastest drivers deliver smooth aggression... I need to learn this. I jump onto the brakes at the last second (let the ABS kick in) wrench the wheel in... etc etc...Not next time. Having said that - this is NOT the approach I would take to a 550M/456GT - it's just I expected a 360M to 'cope' with it... I was wrong - off the back of your advice, it's a car that, like any other, appears to respond to proper driving. Cheers guys. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 445 Registered: 6-2002 |
Car shouldn't get un-duely unsettled in a 3rd gear corner (damn!) 360 is very stable at speed. Longer wheelbase does make it I think more catchable. I also can't belive lap times are faster with ASR on, no way. ABS on, MAYBE (lets you hold braking on turn-in a little bit longer on a GOOD 4-channel system that allows partial tyre slip.) I echo what Brian said, the best way to think of driving fast is to actually slow down, and "roll" on and off the gas and throttle. The very fastest drivers I've seen in-car footage, are never working very hard or moving very fast, yet they are hanging the car on the edge of control throught the entire course. Reason: any quick movements, in any direction, at 10/10ths will spin you off the track  Best! Ben. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1921 Registered: 1-2002 |
Yeah...I am MUCH faster in the 550 on track with the ASR off...which I do after a good warm-up lap. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 340 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jason, that's an interesting note on the Fiorano course. That makes me second-think whether I want to pay the huge $$$ for that course. If they are saying that, its just because they are scared of their students. There is *absolutely*no*way* that ASR on is faster. The ASR won't let you get anywhere near the limit. If I forget and leave ASR on, the stupid thing kicks in during the very first turn... when I am still going "slow" as the tires and brakes warm up. If I left it on for a whole lap, it would essentially be kicking in anytime I wasn't on the brakes. For me, ASR could be relabeled "Guest Driver Mode". ;^) I don't use it otherwise. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1915 Registered: 1-2002 |
Manu, listen to Brian here. He is spot-on. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 405 Registered: 3-2001 |
Manu The car is a real handful driven hard with the ASR off. I know on the Ferrari pilota course at Fiorano, the instructors recommend driving it in sport mode with the ASR on. (better lap times were achieved that way.) | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 338 Registered: 3-2002 |
Manu, I always start with car stuff first, and look at the driver second... but since you are re-focusing on the driver, let me give some suggestions. What you describe is not uncommon experience for drivers. I can easily induce horrific understeer in any car by simply jerking the steering wheel hard into the corner. And since drivers tend to turn in even harder when the car doesn't respond, its a downward spiral. Under heavy braking, you are using most of the traction of your front tires. Turn-in too quickly and that addition of turning forces will instantly exceed the tires' traction... at which point they will just plow straight ahead... if you turn in quicker than the car's weight shifts, and especially if you don't give up some of the braking, then push you will. Next time you take it out, focus on turning in slowly... try not to get ahead of the weight shifting to the outside. Also be sure you are releasing the brakes as you start to turn-in. You don't need to come in less "hot", just brake a little earlier (but just as hard) at first until you get comfortable rolling off the brakes and slowly and smoothly turning in. To get a feel for what you're going for, next time you're driving around, focus on stopping without weight bounce. Normally, when drivers stop, the weight of the car is forward and then as they come to a stop, the car bounces backward a bit. Try to stop without that... to do that, you must roll off the brakes gently right at the end of the stop... matching the weight transfer. When you are on the track you similarly want to avoid any "bounce" in the weight transfer... and you want to avoid your inputs to the car being faster than the weight transfer. Make sense? See if that doesn't cure the understeer problem. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 289 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ferrari is not perect. the 360 is a road car. the factory may have the corner weights off too. You can simulate snappy turn in by having the RF-LR weight differnt from the LF-LR weight upset. Stuff like this can really mess you up on a non-race surface, too fast for the street driving, and street tires at street temperatures but you trying to do a racerish maneuver. I would deffinately check suspension settings unless you are pretty confident that this maneuver is well within your driving ability | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 753 Registered: 2-2002 |
I'm thinking about it and perhaps I was just going in wayyy too hot. Bear in mind I was driving on the ROAD in sport mode with ASR cancelled. Possible causes (aside from lame driving) - Newish tyres. - Freshly laid road (new tarmac). *That* corner that really scared me was a 3rd gear 60 degree right hander...... Might just be my shite driving.... Must try again! | ||
| Mark Lambert (Mlambert890)
Junior Member Username: Mlambert890 Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'd echo the tire wear question. Tire wear can make a huge difference and is often overlooked because it doesn't readily become apparent in normal driving and by the time it's clearly visible, the tires are definitely beyond "hairpin turn" range. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 440 Registered: 6-2002 |
Manu- how tight was this corner, first gear hairpin maybe? Sounds like you were too hard on the brakes in turn-in and then too hard on the gas, and then lifted... It also sounds like the car could have had suspension work done, which can fsck-up an otherwise good car (or make it great! I suspect setup of the car is in error, Fs can be very sensative. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 337 Registered: 3-2002 |
Manu, I regularly drive my 360 very hard... which includes going into corners too hot sometimes (on track). Your description does not sound like mine at all... in fact, if anything its the opposite... under heavy braking, giving a little steering is usually responsive, but the back end gets loose... sometimes manageably, sometimes not, forcing me to get off the brakes and maybe even on the gas to catch the back end... of course, that means I missed the apex, but that's better than looping it. IOW, almost the direct opposite of your experience. Although I would agree with your last comment... go in too hot, and the 360 is definitely tricky... but for different reason (back end gets twitchy). What wheels are on the car? What tires? What sizes? How old? How much tread? How much pressure was in the tires? What brake pads? Were you in Sport mode or Normal mode? Any changes made to the suspension? Changes to the weight of the car? Brian | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 763 Registered: 4-2002 |
Two things: 1) check tire pressures, my F355 responds to al little as 0.5 PSI 2) check ride height, the wider tires may not be of original aspect ratio. This will change the basic rake of the chassis. The F360 has a very narrow range of ride heights that the suspension is "in the sweet zone" with. | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 751 Registered: 2-2002 |
Guys, I've driven 360s before but not REALLY hard.. (at the end of the day, these are my customers cars not mine...). I went into one particular corner and couldn't BELIEVE the understeer... and seeing as it was a reasonably quick corner, my scope to righten the balance with a bit of throttle was limited too... I lifted out and wooooooooooo... out came the rear. Now I am not saying there is anything WRONG with the 360 (I still haven't driven a car that can change direction that quickly - awesome) ... but the understeer AT SUCH A LOW SPEED RELATIVE TO THE CORNER came as an unwelcome shock... And I KNOW other have reported the same thing before TO ME for me to ignore their comments in bemusment. It is not a 'corner-out' problem. It's the heavy understeer you encounter after the amazing initial turn in.... followed by the snappy breakaway if you lift out afterward. NOT forgiving AT ALL. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 1893 Registered: 1-2002 |
I have to agree with Ken & others here, Manu: sounds like a problem with the car's set-up. On the track, these cars are sweet handling gems! That said: given the relatively skinny front tires on these cars anyway, you really need to scrub a lot of speed off before entering a tight corner, because the laws of physics simply cannot be avoided on street tires. And this will vary depending on tire type/brand/etc. So, either the car is not set up properly, or you were seimply trying to carry too much speed into the corner. | ||
| Nick Berry (Nickb)
Junior Member Username: Nickb Post Number: 99 Registered: 8-2002 |
Accelerating too hard or not smooth enough through a corner transfers excessive weigh to the rear, decreasing traction at the front and causing understeer. I suspect that was the problem. You neeed to know the balance of the car. | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 323 Registered: 1-2003 |
Hey Mr C, I hope it wasn't my car! | ||
| Raymond A. Castelhano (Oglmlw)
New member Username: Oglmlw Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2003 |
Hi, I have driven 360s around Morosso and have never experienced any of the problems that you found your customer's car to exhibit. The car should be inspected. MrC | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1324 Registered: 8-2001 |
Nothing wrong with mine. | ||
| Matt (Blurr)
New member Username: Blurr Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2003 |
I have no first hand knowledge yet but I know people that swear by the challenge wheel upgrade for this very reason. They say bigger rubber size like the challenge cars 225 front, 285 rear increase the handling characteristics tremendously. The alignment should be checked as well. -matt | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 322 Registered: 1-2003 |
did any of the twicking include the suspension? my 360 sticks like glue. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 986 Registered: 10-2001 |
I've never driven a 360 but that car sure sounds like it's got some kind of setup problem. My Honda is pretty neutral when I'm pretending I'm in an F1 race. Have you ever driven a 360 before for comparison? Has your customer? I'd take it to a dealer and let them have a run and see what they think. | ||
| Manu (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 750 Registered: 2-2002 |
I've driven F355s/550Ms hard and always felt they were VERY well balanced. Well I drove, at my customers insistence a mildly tweaked 360 in REAL anger today i.e. really hard with the customer present in the passenger seat..... (this is on the road) (We had modded it to run around an extra 25hp, snappier F1 box etc.....) DAMN!!!! THE 360 understeers like a F****** PIG... Brake in a straight line and although the turn-in is instant, the car just wants to wash out and out and out..... putting your foot in harder makes the understeer terminal. Lift a bit and the back comes round *immediately*..... so basically if you go in too hot.... it starts getting VERY tricky... NOT NICE. Anyone agree? All in my opinion of course. No I am not a super driver like most of the guys here P.S. ASR is for wimps. |