| Author | Message | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 327 Registered: 3-2002 |
Martin, The 911 has its transmission case in front of the engine, closer to the cars center of mass. With the engine behind the rear axle, I assume that qualifies for 'rear engined'. Thus the entire 3x V8s should qualify as 'mid engined' as the engine mounts are all forward of the rear axles. 360 too. | ||
| neal (95spiderneal)
Junior Member Username: 95spiderneal Post Number: 166 Registered: 3-2002 |
glad to see another 348 on track! its so much fun. ive been about 10x with my spider and its easier to control than my old boxster. key to safety for me is to leave enough room to brake and downshift prior to turning wheel towards apex. its a slow shifter so if not enough time to complete shift you will lock wheel in turn and spin. manual steering is a plus for safety also since allows for easier counter steering if back does start to come around. be esp. careful if wet otherwise go slow enough to always be in control and have fun!! | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 420 Registered: 4-2003 |
In relative terms, and for a mid-engine car, the Slope Nosed Audi (Boxster) was definetly the most user friendly. | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 419 Registered: 4-2003 |
Depends on your reaction time. I raced 80 shifter carts on YDS tires and moved up 125 shifter carts on sticky tires. Talk about lightening quick reaction times. | ||
| Hill Bullock (Mrpotential)
New member Username: Mrpotential Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2002 |
I can attest to the dangers of trail braking a Boxster (or any mid-engined car?), unless handled delicately. They can come around on you in a hurry. | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 418 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hmm, that is food for thought. There must be a bit more to it though. As alluded to earlier, I have driven a P Boxster exteremly hard. That is also a mid-engine car. At speed and with a whooping 215 HP, you can throttle steer it (inducing weight transfer) quite easily. I can say that is pretty dang hard to get tail happy at speeds. You really need to get the rear end light for it to start to step out. Again, beyond the location of the engine weight (center vs front/rear) there must be additional factors (center of gravity, caster and camber specs, front/rear ride hieghts, spring rates, etc,) influencing the characteristics of each mid-engine car. | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 144 Registered: 2-2003 |
Jens: quick comment. I'll leave aside the usual advice for track-day rookies, as I think many people have covered that aspect, and covered it well. Consider too looking around on the web at various websites, especially PCA regional websites in the states, as they'll have checklists of things to bring and things to think about. Specifically to your question -- mid-engined cars handle well on the track, generally speaking, because they have what is called "low polar-moment-of-intertia". Because the weight of the car is concentrated between the axles, the car is easier to turn (and spin); rotation around the center of gravity is easier. Consider an ice skater; if her hands and arms are outstretched, while she is spinning, she spins slowly; when she pulls them in, the speed of the spin increases. Conversely, a mid-engined car will tend to snap-spin more easily and be less stable. Contrast a 348 with, say, a Porsche 944; that car is front engined and the transmission is located behind the rear axle. It is a "high-polar-moment-of-intertia" vehicle; very stable, very forgiving, but requires more force to rotate. This translates into the 348 being a lot of fun to drive, but it will have a tendency to "come around" - the transition to oversteer is pretty quick, especially if your car is an earlier example with the narrower offset rear wheels. So, enjoy the track, just be cautious about trailing throttle, trailing brake and power oversteer. vty, --Dennis | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4828 Registered: 5-2001 |
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| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4827 Registered: 5-2001 |
Hey, you may be right here. Since it is midENGINE not midTRANNY car  proves you how much I know. I guess that was the "foot-in-the-mouth-special" | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 843 Registered: 9-2001 |
Marin, As long as the center of gravity of the engine is before the rear axle it�s a mid engine car. I think this centre is before the rear axle at the 348. I might be wrong of course but I think I have read quite often that the 348 is a mid engine car. Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1291 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bremen - Hamburg. No limits...only occasional Trekkers (nott!). Martin, I thought the 348 was a mid engine car myself. I think the only definition point is, where the engine sits, if it is in front of the rear axle, it qualifies. Regardless of the tranny. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4825 Registered: 5-2001 |
From Stuttgart direction Muenchen. No speed limits. Rob, I thought since the tranny hangs behind the axle and there is no usable space behind the engine eg trunk the car classifies as a rear engine, much like the Pcars. Do you go by the block or the tranny or the overall location more towards mid than rear? The balance on a mid engine is better since you get a better (closer) 50/50 weight transfer than on purely rear. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 842 Registered: 9-2001 |
Andreas, I am living in Bonn which is near Cologne. There are several no speed limit highways where you can easily test out the car. Long three lane straight for several Kilometers on the A555 for example. I always max out the 348 at least once when having a spin and highways are free. About Stuttgard I don�t know to be honest. Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1290 Registered: 10-2002 |
I hear you. However doing 'just' 280 km/h would be pretty mind blowing as well. My personal best so far was 180 km/h in a Honda Civic going downhill towards Saarbruecken. You feel as if the doors are coming off any second... Autobahn IMHO is only fun in the North where there aren't that many cars. Doing 280 km/h around Stuttgart sounds suicidal to me. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 841 Registered: 9-2001 |
Andreas, The N�rburgring is indeed a special race track. Not exactly fun compared to Spa for example but gives you enormous satisfaction when getting to know the track better and knowing what come behind the next hill! Additionally the Nordschleife has lots of history especially connected with Ferrari. They have always been very succesful here especially at the 24h hour races. IMO you get a much higher respect for your car after having tracked it. You get a glimpse of what the car is capable of! Much more rewarding than "just" drive 280km/h straight on the Autobahn. Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1288 Registered: 10-2002 |
Sheesh, Jens, doesn't that make you feel so proud and connected to racing history to drive on the Ring? Man, I'd give something to do the same. That's just awesome! | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 838 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thanks for all the advice! Keep them coming please! Michael, Yes, I have been there with my car before:    Pictures where taken at Section Br�nnchen! Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| Hill Bullock (Mrpotential)
New member Username: Mrpotential Post Number: 28 Registered: 12-2002 |
A mid-engine note from the "other guy" Most of the words below are great advice, but I will add a few of my own with respect to mid-engined cars, with the caveat that I have no idea how a mid-engined Ferrari handles compared to my Boxster... I found the mid-engined format to be two different critters, depending on whether I was in an auto-cross/time trial setting (slower) or a track even/DE (faster). I found the Boxster very susceptible to snapping around on me once the tire adhesion limit had been exceeded, when going at slower speeds where the car is generally not drifting as much in total (i.e front wheels are generally planted fairly well). Conversely, at higher speeds where the car is in more of a 4 wheel drift, I found that the tail getting out was much more gradual, easier to detect, and easier to correct; not as much of penchant for snapping around. With that said, it takes a lot (of driver error) to get a Boxster out of shape enough to spin. It is an incredibly stable platform. I would assume mid-engined Ferrari's are similarly stable. Like the other guys said, take it slow, build speed gradually, accept all the instruction you can get, and have fun. | ||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
Junior Member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 235 Registered: 9-2002 |
Jens, Having done many tens of thousands of laps both alone and with people of varying diving ability, please allow me to share three simple pieces of advice: 1. Look where you want to go. The MOST important thing I can teach anyone is the imporance of vision. Rob S. has already offered excellent advice on the importance of looking where you want to go and to look far ahead in order to anticipate what is coming. Say it over and over again: "No matter what, I will look where I want to go". 2. Learn the track & go faster with each lap Too often I get in a car with someone who instantly drives over his head. These people learn very little and never go fast because they are driving in a state of panic where they have no room left in their brain to absorb what is happening and build on it. Drive the first few laps like a road you have never seen before. Then build your speed gradually. All top line racing drivers do this (they do it a bit quicker than the rest of us) and it is in this way that they learn. When Jeff Gordon drove Montoya's GP car last week, it was interesting to see how he went faster and faster as time went on. Many times you time a novice and, lets say over 30 laps, he sets his fastest time on the 5th lap. If that is the case what was he doing for the other 25 laps? 3. If in doubt DON'T LIFT If you find yourself in a position where you feel your bum get tense chances are you entered a turn just a little too fast for your comfort level. Assuming you did not enter so fast that even the hand of God could not save you, the best thing to do is to stay steady on the accelerator and just ride it out. It may feel a little uncomfortable but it is your best chance to safely make the turn. Most novices take turns well below the ability of the car so in these instances what you are feeling is you being a little uncomfortable with something that the car can easily handle. Have a great time at the Ring next week. I have been there several times and think it great test of man and machine. Lastly be sure to take the last kilometer of your in lap to cool the car. This will go a long way to ensuring that your brakes and tires are in good shape for the drive home. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 680 Registered: 11-2002 |
It is mid-engine. Rear engine is Porsche 911, VW bug first generation... Porsche 914 is mid-engine, and technically, the RX8 is front-mid-enginge, because the engine is completely within the wheelbase. | ||
| Michael Vaughan (Vanimal)
New member Username: Vanimal Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jens Have you done the ring already, if so please let me know how it went. Myself and a few friends (P car, Z3's and my 348 challenge) are planning a trip to the ring in August or September and would love to hear your stories. We all did it on our bikes last year and I must say it was really intimidating, no way as easy as a short track like snetterton which we did on the bikes as well. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4814 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jens, the 348 is a rear engine car. Not to be technical You were thinking of the earlier models 328 and 308 as mid engine cars. Both pretty much behave the same though, so I know what youy mean just being a wise ass this morning. Sorry I can not make it. MC and Italy was great though. | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 416 Registered: 9-2002 |
"Soon you will realize you feel like your driving slower, but you're actually faster, but far more comfortable" Definatly true (but who doubted that ), while karting (way different then "real" racing, but still) it's completly the same. Checking your lap-timer after a lap "at ease" always makes you smile. Well, almost. Ok, probably not the info you're looking for but here are some novice tips which helped me a bit: - Cornering, It's better to go in slow and out fast then vice versa - Don't squeeze your steering wheel but be gentle, to avoid cramp -Not to sure of this one but don't pull your wheel but push it, any expert comments ? - Listen to your car/kart/motor (as always) - Always do some laps slow to learn the track, look at maps/video's/descriptions (if available) btw. if you'll search the net, you'll find some great video's of the Nordschleife (Sabine, the ring-cab, for instance) although the Nordschleife is a bit long to remember in just a day ) I hope it's helpfull, prob. not since you've got more experience then me. We'll see next weekend | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 661 Registered: 4-2002 |
When someone passes you, don't increase your speed to try and keep up. That is a really good way to get into trouble. Don't try to drive your fastest late in the day when you are tired. I used to track my 328 years ago. It understeered. What I would do is go into a corner too fast. When the understeering began, I would slightly let up on the gas to move the rear end around. Once pointed correctly, press on the gas. A 328 does not have enough torque to throttle oversteer, at least in 3rd gear or higher. Just got back from a PCA event at Road Atlanta. A 993 was totalled. He hit a concrete wall, ripped a front wheel completely off and bashed the back and got the car on fire. He hit a bridge. When you hit something you generally bash both ends unless you hit it dead on. This was throttle oversteer, and he thought he could 'steer' through it. Like myself, he is a PCA instructor. Now he has a parts car although I not sure there is too much left to part out. Don't succumb to the red mist. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 677 Registered: 11-2002 |
One thing I mention to novices is the importance of feeling comfortable with what both you and the car are doing: don't drive over your abilities. I've heard instructors say, "there's no coasting in racing," which is true, but this is a track day, for fun and learning, so of course, there's plenty of coasting going on, I'd expect novices to do it. Some people "drive by numbers", which means they either saw someone else go through a corner this fast, or were instructed that the car can do it. Then they convince themselves to drive over their abilities, sometimes they succeed, sometimes the car goes to the bodyshop. Bottom line is you must work on feeling what's going on in the driving environment, and the way to do it is seat time, safe, controlled driving, smooth inputs to steering, throttle and brake, and above all else: anticipation of the next event. Look far down the track, anticipate what comes next, look where you want to go, even (especially) when the car's getting out of shape and you're correcting. Don't look to the Armco, or the tree that you don't want to hit, look down the track where you want to go. Get a coach, learn to talk about what you're feeling at specific times in the corner, get a dozen copies of the track map and start a binder of notes. Mark down shift points, brake points, throttle on point, full throttle, etc. Do this each session. Be disciplined about it and make your notes before chatting with friends. This gets you to concentrate better, learn much faster, and develop that "feel" you're looking for. Drive other cars too. Many drivers never learn how a well set up chassis feels like, they learn to drive around their own cars problems. Pay attention, anticipate, drive within your abilities, take notes and learn. Soon you will realize you feel like your driving slower, but you're actually faster, but far more comfortable. Then the speed comes naturally and without painful stops at the bodyshop. As for specifics on mid-engine chassis: you're starting with a good car. Sure, there are ways to tweak the suspension, and you can debate that later chassis are more capable. Just drive, it's all about learning to be smooth, weight transfer management, and anticipation. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 837 Registered: 9-2001 |
Hello everybody, We are having our small european FChat track meeting at the N�rburgring next weekend. Although this may have been discussed several times it would be nice if some of the "racers" of this board (Jon, Rob, etc.) could give some hints on what to look for when tracking mid engine cars like the 348. I am especially interested in how to set up the car when cornering (Speed, throttle action etc.) and what to do when the back swings out (How to avoid tankslappers etc.). In general how to drive a mid engine car on the track. This question is especially interesting since some of us are track novices. A correct car condition is mandatory of course (Tire pressure, brake fluid, oil level etc.) Any help would be greatly appreciated! Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller |