| Author |
Message |
rich (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 295
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 2:00 pm: | |
I guess I didn't realize the emmissions stuff caused that big of a hit. I mean, 68hp per liter certainly isn't terrible (beats the heck out of my '81 2L Fiat wth 102hp, ha!), but we've learned to expect so much from Ferrari (pre-smog little 2L dino v6 put out over 85hp/liter after all).
Considering the cars that 512 engine was in though, who really needs more than that hp. I've driven my friend's Testarossa and it scares the crap out of me as is! |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 815
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 1:42 pm: | |
"I'm also surprised the 512 engine only put out about 68hp per liter. Why is that? It's got a 9.2:1 CR."
Its a two valve per cylinder engine, developed at the beginning of the emissions controlled era. |
rich (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 290
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 10:32 am: | |
Sorry Doug. I should have clicked your profile to see what year your car was. When I hear "Boxer", I think 365GT4BB (which has 380 at 7200rpm). I looked up the testarosa and peak comes even lower, 380 at 5800. I didn't realize the flat 12s are so low revving. Knowing this, what Chaz is doing is particularly ridiculous. I'm also surprised the 512 engine only put out about 68hp per liter. Why is that? It's got a 9.2:1 CR. Hmm...
Anyway, That graph on that page is very interesting. I can't believe how severly torque falls off in the boxer engine! I had imagined it being more flat. If we had the gear ratios, we could easily calculate optimum shift points, i.e. the point where you'll be making more torque to the wheels (multiply torque listed on the chart at that rpm times the gear ratio) in the next gear than you are in the current gear. |
Doug meredith (Dougm)
Member
Username: Dougm
Post Number: 335
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 6:38 am: | |
Rich
If you look at the dynos in the link
http://www.ferraris-online.com/cars/27001/27001a.html you will see that in a fresh, rebuilt 512bb engine, the hp starts to drop in the 6600 range. I have that same engine, so beyond that point nothing is gained. Believe me, I drive around all day long between 4500 and 7000, but beyond that in a 512bb, nothing is gained except the potential for excessive wear. |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 807
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:53 pm: | |
TO cut to the chase, the following graph shows how much thrust of arrives at the rear wheels. This is based on an F355, but the principle is the same.
I show the thrust without air resistance for each gear in solid lines and the thrust after considering air resistance in dotted lines. The higher the thrust, the faster the car is accelerating based on accel=thrust/weight.
There come a point in time where more revs do not cause more acceleration. If you are causing high rates of engine wear, and not getting acceleration out of it, what is the thrill?
Car engines are designed to tollerate extreme abuse up to redline. In the olden days, we used to have 3 operating areas: 1 safe, 2 yellow, 3 red. Operation in the red was strictly prohibited, operation in yellow was permitted for short durations on the order of 1 minute. Modern engine metalurgy has advanced to the point where components are not breaking at and above redline. More like the yellow line area of long ago. However, the extreme stress can be setting this engine up for a let-go in the not distant enough future, and at best is causing accelerate wear of the valve train and bearings. Some of the ancilaries and their belts and bearings are also put at risk.
This figure shows that you relationship between available HP and vehicular velocity. If you are trying to accelerate, you will choose the operating region when the most power is available. And you will shift when there is more power available in the next higher gear than there is in the current gear. Also notice the point of cross over is just about dead at red line, in all gears, at all speeds. The only thing you need to ask is whether you are trying to accelerate.
If you are not trying to accelerate there is not justifiable reason to be damagine this beautiful engine.
|
rich (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 289
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 11:16 pm: | |
Oh, I agree. Chaz does seem to be doing it just for shits and giggles and it's not even his car! This I would never support. But I also think Doug can be a little rougher on his Boxer and it'll still live a long happy life. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 586
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:53 pm: | |
Rich,
What you are talking about is completely different to running a car in a certain gear until it will not go any faster. This is what Chaz was doing.
I am full of praise for doing that in top gear but not any other ... just change up and go faster.
Thus Rich, please do not confuse these engine abuses in to thinking that what you are talking about and what they do are one and the same. Completely different.
Pete |
rich (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 288
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:47 pm: | |
Doug, the talent doesn't come in putting your foot down. For some of us it comes in properly building our engines and in knowing that the engine can take it. Ferrari engines, and all Italian engines, are meant to be driven at high rpms! Something like the V6 Dino will run all day long at 7000rpm and not complain a bit. It's where it is supposed to be driven. I know nothing about the modern engines but I can't imagine that with all the fancy materials and computer software for designing them that they would be weaker than the V6 which is basically a 1950s design.
Doug said: "Above 6800 rpm it will be dropping in power, so all I will gain is a risk of damage"
Not true. What you will gain is faster acceleration. Though the torque peak on a boxer is at a ridiculously low 3800rpms, I'm failry certain that if you want to drive the car at its maximum acceleration, you should be shifting at much higher than 6800 rpms. Heck, peak hp isn't even until 7200. I'd have to see the torque curve and calculate it with the gear ratios, but I'm going to guess that somewhere around 7500 is going to be your shift point in the first few gears and maybe down to 7000 in the higher gears where the jump is narrower.
(There's a thread with over 500 posts on the subject already but: in short, though torque falls off after torque peak, you'll still be making more power to the wheels in that gear at say 8000rpm than you will be if you shift to the next gear because the next gear has a smaller multiplying effect).
Also, there are times where it makes sense to just keep your foot in it in the current gear. For example, if a braking zone is coming up and you wouldn't be in the next gear for more than a second anyway. You'll lose more time by the act of shifting than you'll lose by running at a slightly less torque factor by "over" revving it a bit in the lower gear for that last second or two before braking (for a corner or whatever). |
Doug meredith (Dougm)
Member
Username: Dougm
Post Number: 334
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:20 pm: | |
Is high reving an engine suppposed to impress? Does it require talent? Anybody with a right foot can run an engine above and beyond redline with no rev limiter. So what is the point of this whole discussion. Beyond a certain rpm, an engine will drop in power. If you want to go beyond this just for sh*&s and giggles....that's great....go right ahead. If you blow the motor, don't cry. I personally will not do that to my Boxer because it proves nothing. Above 6800 rpm it will be dropping in power, so all I will gain is a risk of damage. For all of you that "over-rev" an engine, I could care less. This is getting .....yawn...If you take the car far above redline in 5th gear in a Boxer 12, then I will be impressed because you will be going 175+ mph with a potential to blow a motor. |
rich (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 285
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:16 pm: | |
Looks like from the picture that the red "line" is a range from 7000-1000. The car is at 9000. I seriously doubt this is damaging. If it is then Ferrari doesn't build the engines like they should. Hell, I ran my Dino engine that high plenty of times, and that's basically a 1950s design. Yes, I could have shifted at 8000-8500 (depending on gear) for peak acceleration but what the heck.
Having said that, I would never exceed the beginning of the redline in any car that did not belong to me.
-Rich |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 579
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 7:47 pm: | |
Jim,
quote:As I have said before, as someone with over 20 years in high performance driving experience, I would be on the lookout for someone who has put the car on the track a lot, ...
First of all I am not on my high horse, I am stating facts. As Mitch says using something HOW it was NOT intended is abuse.
You obviously have not read the thread that we keep telling you to because if you did you would see that:
A car accelerates fastest in a certain gear at PEAK torque. 3000 rpm above the redline is way above peak torque so the car is actually slowing down ... this may only be a little but it is still slowing.
If you have 20 years of performance driving you would be the first to agree that driving a car hard and over revving an engine are NOT the same thing. The first is using the car as intended the second is abuse of the machine.
Racing drivers do not abuse, or even are rough on engines or gearboxes, etc. because they understand NOT to rev over the engineer set red line. They also understand that if you are rough on the machine things break. Yes, it is possible to race a car without being ham fisted and thus breaking things. Yes, racing a car is hard on it, but the driver can still be relatively gentle on the car.
The very apt saying is:
To finish first, first you must finish.
Chaz, and you have no professional OR knowledgable experience as you would not over rev an engine this far. Yep you may have raced cars, yep you may have owned thousands of performance cars, yep you may have driven in hot climates but you still have not learnt the fundamental basics of automotive engineering.
Now you ask what is my experience:
* First of all I am a certified Mechanical Engineer.
* Second, my parents ran a automotive repair business, which included race preparation (in the early days). My father was multiple hill climb champion ... and raced with the likes of Steve Millen, etc.
* Thirdly, my father was a service manager for many years for a Porsche, Ferrari, etc. dealership ... that also prepared some Porsches for local race series.
* Fourthly, my mother is still service receptionist for a Porsche, Audi, etc. dealership.
* Fifthly, I have raced at club level for around 9 years and have developed my own racing engines and won championships and raced real hard!@!!!
I have never, ever stated that my Alfa ownership means that I know all about Ferraris, but my automotive experiences and engineering knowledge has put me in a good position to understand that a Ferrari engine is JUST another engine and when it was designed (by somebody with far more engineering knowledge than you or I) set the rev limit at the position he did. He did this because that is WHERE peak power is ... NOT above this point, or anywhere else, BUT at that point.
Thus in conclusion, no body that understands OR as even bothered to look at the power and torque curves of an engine would seriously over rev an engine ... there is NO point.
The only justifiable reason to SLIGHTLY over rev an engine is to ensure that upon a gear change that the engine ends up in the right rev range in the next highest gear ... to ensure maximum acceleration OVERALL.
Thus please, please Jim, go and read some books on engines and think about what you are saying. I would even suggest that you read about engineering and design, and what safety factors are and designed life of components and how components (like conrods, etc.) are designed to operate in certain stress levels, etc.
Regards and best of luck.
Pete
ps: Every driver/owner on this forum thinks you guys are unnecessarily abusing your car, but most cannot be bothered to post. I imagine that most think you are not as you state and thus having us on ...
ps: I am not working on that sort of child abuse project. I am working on a system to track and monitor and ensure safety, etc. for children who suffer abuse at home or else where. |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 803
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 5:22 pm: | |
"I just don't agree that a speed test, or whatever you want to call it is 'abuse' as was done in this case"
Abuse: definition: use of something outside its permitted range.
Red line: factory definition: the maximum permitted RPMs of the engine.
How is rumming 3000 RPMs above red line NOT abuse? It certainly is beyond what the factory permits; is it not? It certainly meets the definition of abuse; does it not?
--------------------------------------------------
What you are trying to imply is: "I got away with it: therefore its all right"--yes?
Would you use this same philosophy for bank robbers? |
Jim Avery (Boxer12)
New member
Username: Boxer12
Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 4:52 pm: | |
Pete,
I applaud your effort to help abused children. I have made several trips to Africa myself and with others to help children effected by the war in Sudan.
I just don't agree that a speed test, or whatever you want to call it is 'abuse' as was done in this case, and it is a far cry from 'driving around at high rpms'. Anyway, there are certain engines, and I know that my Carrera was one of them, which also was a boxer design, that simply seemed to love being driven hard. Nearly everyone at the Posha club track events would agree (just drain a little of the oil out before running hard was the common sentiment). I suspect the Ferrari is the same way, but maybe not. I see you drive an Alfa, which I can tell you by experience (my brother drove an Alfa for many years) that they are a different breed of auto from a Ferrari. Maybe you are on your high horse not realizing it is not so high in reality. As I have said before, as someone with over 20 years in high performance driving experience, I would be on the lookout for someone who has put the car on the track a lot, or driven a lot in very hot weather (ala L.A. 100 plus degrees), which engines tend to get warped heads, blown gaskets, knocks, etc., rather than condemn poor Chaz and me or blacklist (or slander title to) a car.
Purely because of the entertainment value of the discussion, I have been talking about this to the head of our local Ferrari Club of America chapter, who has owned Testerossa and 512Tr (now has a 355 F1) and he believes from personal experience that the cars continue to put out power up to 9500 rpm. "Beyond that, it loses a little" were his words, so obviously, he has been to the place where Chaz' photos were taken. |
Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Junior Member
Username: Andrewg
Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 8:29 pm: | |
Chaz, kenyon etc..... if the oulton 16th thing is more than just me (you have no idea how bad the food was last year!!!!!!!) drop me a line and I'll set up the oldf hospitality thing in the padock!!! (beer blunts and a BBQ!) |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 572
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 8:21 pm: | |
Boxer12,
Just saying it how I see it. I have no respect for anyone that abuses anything ... infact I am working on a project to help abused children right now.
Please read the thread "tell me about driving around at high RPMs" and you will learn why you guys are wrong.
Cheers
Pete |
Jim Avery (Boxer12)
New member
Username: Boxer12
Post Number: 32
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Hey guys, I have been working all day and find your recent chats much amusing. I am glad everyone is all chummy and we got that finger nail thing worked out. I just glanced at Pete's profile and discovered he is in a far off land. We are three ships sailing different seas as we converse. It is a good thing to expose our asses to others but not to grab unauthorized glimpses of the ladies or lads. Lets do it bona fide, eh chaz, the old fashion way with guile and whit, seduction my friend of that perfectly proportioned woman of your dreams.
Pete, I am still sensing quite a bit of hostility. I hope you are taking it out on us and not the dog, or worse. Its ok, I think you found a couple of tough skinned bruthas to insult. As a trial lawyer, I get kicked on, •••• on, and spit on, so hey, this doesn't even come close to the worst of it! As a man of color, I know that you have also experienced the worst humanity has to offer. I hope that you don't see too much of it in our little chat line here.
Pete-Your defense of machinery would be admirable, if it were not accompanied by your insult of persons. I guess machines have a higher place in your personal hierarchy than your fellow man. That is sad. I say this so you can become a better chatter and have a rat's chance in h_e_l_l of convincing someone of your position, not because I care. |
chaz richards (Chaa)
Junior Member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 56
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 2:38 pm: | |
I dont think there will be any more agro pete i think we are all tolerating each other,and J.W.A and i will probobly have a love child. EY? did i say that.C |
PeterS (Peters)
Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 921
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
This needs to go to the Agression thread in Off Topic |
chaz richards (Chaa)
Junior Member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 55
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:45 pm: | |
Oh yes i see what you mean Thomas i do look like a white dude,but in fact i am halfcast a kind of coffe colour.Hey if you are calling me a lier i can always post a pic of my big brown bottom TE! HE!I think it was becourse the flash on the camera mate.As for the person who took the pics it was my boss him self,we had a laugh,he is a good dude and can be as reakless as my self,he has a yacht moored in Marbaya spain currently under repairs after an interesting event we had two monthes ago.I did not know there was a club show on the 16th but i will be there,i was at the Auto Italian show last month.If anyone else is going please form an orderly line to insult and hit me.HA! HA! |
Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Junior Member
Username: Andrewg
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:45 am: | |
Chaz, if your at the owners club thing at Oulton Park on the 16th I'll happily be a witness |
thomas daniels (Castex)
New member
Username: Castex
Post Number: 8
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:36 am: | |
Chaz, the thumb holding the wheel in your 2nd gear picture is white. The owner of that thumb also needs to cut his nails, I'd say. Did you get your boss to hold the wheel while you took the picture, or what? Is he a she?
BTW, I don't think it's very sporting of you to be leaving mirrors around the place like that. |
chaz richards (Chaa)
Junior Member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 54
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 6:30 am: | |
Oh yea when we all ever do meet i am guessing that you will beable to tell J.W.A and my self apart,i dont know about him but my self i am black,6ft and a 19 stone body builder quite distinctive,J.W.A and my self would be easy to identify at the U.S Grand prix, just look on the grass banking for one white dude and one black dude having a laugh while we are looking up the skirts of unsuspecting girlies as they walk over the mirrors that we would have planted on the ground, with empty cans of BUD all around and the joint papers which was there when we sat there officer.Personally i think it disgraceful that Ferraris can be owned by people who enjoy them self too much.HA! HA! |
chaz richards (Chaa)
Junior Member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 53
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 6:06 am: | |
J.W.A your prety cool man your ok,as are other dudes on this thread....er that includes you to an extent PSK why becourse at least your still here fighting and that more than i can say about one other doubter in particular who has not responded after the photos were up.Psk my frend why did you not say you wanted to see a pic in top gear,give me a couple of weeks with that one and you will have it( with a little help from J.W.A i hope).I would smoke a joint with you all any time and while you are all high J.W.A Boxer and my self will steal the keys to your Ferraris and take them for a goooood thrashing,and will evern leave a good photo of us doing it on the dash,oh yea bring your girlfrend and wives along i always feel RAMPANT after a good run.HA! HA! HA! |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 562
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:37 am: | |
Oh no, where here again:
quote:Then tell my why my car continues to accelerate on a steady curve as I go past the redline...and if you don't believe it does, let me send you the video.
I think EFWUN is back (?, no offense intended EFWUN ... ) ... I won't waste my breathe correcting this comment ... refer the "tell me about driving around at high RPMs"
Pete |
Jim Avery (Boxer12)
New member
Username: Boxer12
Post Number: 31
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 12:16 am: | |
Pete, that's a damn exciting idea! Now that you mention it, I think I will go for it, if el Chaz doen't beat me to it! (Glad to see you are getting into the spirit of things old boy...can I borrow your car to do it?)
To the physics minded posters, please tell me why a Bumble can fly, ok? I have been stumped by that one since H.S. Then tell my why my car continues to accelerate on a steady curve as I go past the redline...and if you don't believe it does, let me send you the video. (they won't let me post a file that big) |
L. (Testaroja)
New member
Username: Testaroja
Post Number: 26
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:39 pm: | |
Im a ferrari owner, helicopter pilot, scuba diver, black belt since '87, virtuoso guitarist, divorced 3 times, speak 4 languages, got to big cojones, but who cares. I personally think that you hate your boss and hey its ok to trash his car, but dont stop at his testarossa just do it to all of his collection and post more pics. This one was nice, I hope he is got a nice looking daughter, post some of that also will you |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 560
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
Chaz and Boxer12,
I would only be impressed if that was in top gear ... any other gear and you are too scared to go as fast as possible, girlies (sorry no insult intended for females.)
And you guys think you are the speed kings ... ha
Pete |
J.W. A. (Boxer12)
New member
Username: Boxer12
Post Number: 30
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 6:46 pm: | |
This pic seems to have dropped out of the thread...must be the archive thing...
|
J.W. A. (Boxer12)
New member
Username: Boxer12
Post Number: 29
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 6:35 pm: | |
You know, I have been to the UK and there is an 8 hour time difference....I would have to be in two places at once or up all night to be him!
No, we are not the same guy. I just get a kick out of his antics. Besides, why would I borrow my bosses car? Another thing, I am the boss.
Besides, if we can get him to Indy for the F1 race, everyone can see we are not the same guy! I, for one, am not shy and you will be able to find me very easy. Look at my profile. Give me a call. I love to chat about
 |
Dave (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 519
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 6:25 pm: | |
Why do I get the impression that Chaz, and J.W.A. are the same person? |
J.W. A. (Boxer12)
New member
Username: Boxer12
Post Number: 28
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | |
Ya know, when you loan a Ferrari to someone, I think either a) you know them pretty damn well or b) Fcar is just another horse in your stable. I don't get the impression that el Chaz is the kind of guy who would take the car out and sneak around, like say, a valet at your local martini bar. Either way, you know, when you loan your car, it is just a loaner car. No big deal, ok? 70K isn't that much money to most folks who spend it on a car.
Another point, just for discussion, I guess if any conduct that could cause premature failure is the definition of abuse, then racing should be banned. My neighor puts a new engine in his Viper about every season, he has slammed the wall at MidAmerica,...he still loves the car. Go to any Fcar track event and watch guys take their 550 Maranello out and tear it up on the track. Then they go out and sell them to you guys without ever telling you that the 5000 miles on the car were punishing...Where the hell are you naysayers coming from? |
chaz richards (Chaa)
Junior Member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 52
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 10:47 am: | |
History is full of stupid things that we all find interestig is it not.martain somehow i have a vision of you wearing a robe and walking the earth bare foot preaching philosophy with the calavino rampant hanging around your neck,cooooolwords guru.
|
Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 4932
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 10:05 am: | |
The sheer headline is questionable:
The notion that stupidity is interesting is strange to me.
Stupidity is not interesting but regretfull.
The question here is, is overreving stupid. I don't think so as long as you can pay for the damages you cause.
Taking somebody elses car and overreving it is almost criminal since the results of this action may not appear immeidately but later and then "it wasn't me!" will not pay for it.
just my thoughts! |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1811
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 9:42 am: | |
Mitch
The ONLY thing I disagree with that you said is that you don't even have to overrev a big V8 to have it go. 30 years later I can still hear the sound of the con rod ventilating the block in my Lola and flying through the fiberglass body ten inches from the back of my head. After I stopped shaking I looked at the tach tell tail. It was right where it should be.
Best |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 785
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 9:13 am: | |
"Is it true that the faster the engine (and drive train) revs, the more inertial force it develops?"
It depends uponw what you mean. The internal inertial forces trying to tear the engine apart gincrease with the square of the RPMs. The amount of power an engine develops peaks at (duh) max HP and decline on either side.
"Is HP a true measure of inertia?"
No, HP is a measure of (duh) power which is a function of TQ and RPMs (HP = TQ*RPM/5252). At the point of peak HP, torque is falling faster than PRMs are rising and power drops off. Noise, however, does not.
"Who knows?"
People who understand engines and physics.
"Who cares?"
People who love engines, the sounds they make, and want them to last longer than next week.
"BTW, Pete, I for one, am 45 going on 21. I have over 250,000 miles logged on high performance sports cars (Corvette at 18-26, Posha Euro Carrera from 26 to 43, Fcars now) and another 150,000 mi on high performance motorcycles. Still revving it, baby! Check out trackattack.com and go have some fun. Or drive my car. Maybe if you were in someone else's car you would enjoy it! Come to our party on F1 race day. Chaz and I want to take you on a trip to the wild side!"
This paragraph is written in the style of someone who is not older (mentally) than 16.7 years, all bravado, no control. If you indeed do ride motorcycles, and have survived, you are presenting a different image at Ferrarichat than you are on the road. Otherwise we would never have had the chance to converse on you idiotic things you do to lovely engines.
"(I am sure this thread will be banned soon...it is expressing some very questionable notions, eh?)"
You might be surprised, Ferrarichat is accomodating to those who are stupid just as well as to those who actually know what is going on.
What you do not understand is that an engine like the TR is finely balanced, and build with quality components. This means it can put up with some serious abuse (above redline is the definition of abuse), but the life of the engine will degrade very fast. LTes just say (for example only) that the TR engine can tollerate 10 minutes of 10,000 RPM operation before something really bad occurrs--like a conrod going through the block. Is this what you want, and engine that is in need of $30,000 worth of work sometime in the next year? to make your $70,000 automobile road worthy again?
In addition to being hard on the maintenance budget, it is not fast either. If you want to understand lookup the thread "tell me about driving around at high RPMs" and you will see that holding onto a lower gear much past the HP peak is causing lower performance than shifting at readline or at most 300 RPMs above redline (and only in the lower 2 gears). 300 RPMs above redline will still accelerate the wear of an engine, but it is eminently more gentle than 3000 RPMs above redline.
Actually, I'm surprised the engine has not already let go; if it were any kind of american pushrod V8, it would have; these tend to bend pushrods at any more than 700 RPMs above redline. |
Steve Marschman (Hossheim)
New member
Username: Hossheim
Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
Okay so it is possible to over-rev a flat 12... but why? They don't make any power above about 6500 rpm, so what's the point? On the dyno my TR lost horsepower after 6300 rpm and lost torque after 6100 rpm. |
Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Junior Member
Username: Andrewg
Post Number: 76
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 8:40 am: | |
Chaz, V funny thread so far, just one thing, could you give everybody from the Uk on here the heads up if you or your boss sell your F cars! |
chaz richards (Chaa)
Junior Member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 51
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 5:27 am: | |
MOAN ••••••• MOAN,i am sorry if i dont comform to the sterio typical ferrari owner,becourse i dont give a ••••!I have always chased the buzz started young at 16 i joind the Royal marines comandos spent nine years doing great things that the average guy would •••• him self at,left the mob traind to be a C.P.O thats where i am today,and had alot of exciting moments that office seat shiners only read about and thanking there lucky being boring farts.Always had fast cars and bikes would not have it any other way.I am sorry if i dont fit the average ferrari owners description but thats life.also have taught and been teaching the martial arts for 26 years this is me guys not your sterio typical ferrari owner,i love talking risks damm i have evern done base jumping ••••••• cool.As far as my maturity is concerned i am 36 and wether working in any hot high risk situation looking after a client or working in a five star environment i am very good at what i do thats why i am paid well and am at the peak of my working life,just like all the office seat shiners i suppose.But the differance is i get my adrenelin fixes from more extreme measures as opposed to the average fuddy duddy ferrari owner who thinks the sound of there car chirping its rear wheel is orgasmic.Horses for courses my brothers.May i sugest you get out of your office seats and go straight to the office coffe machine and may be as you pass Susan give her backside a pinch....go on live a little dudes. And i know not all the people on this site do not work in the office but we all know which ones i am talking about dont we.Love this site.....Oh yea PsK had a call from a guy last night from this site who been on it for a while and we both think you should get a life.LOVE YOU ALL!!!Flame away ladies.C |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 558
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 2:17 am: | |
What has adrenalin got to do with over revving an engine. Speed and acceleration and cornering speed give you the adrenalin.
Boxer12, I know I have been there done that on the track and road (yep now embarrassed about that one ... ). I have had the rush so bad that my legs could not stop shaking , yeee ha ... but this has nothing to do with abusing engines, or revving them to they brake. Once broken, no more fun!
To go fast change UP gear and keep the foot flat on the floor. Do not be a wimp and NOT change up as you are NOT accelerating fast enough.
:banghead:
Please do a performance driving course and learn something about going fast. Destroying things is not one of them.
Good luck to you Boxer12, I do hope your car keeps going, but read about performance before you debate that over revving is cool, and has anything to do with optimising your speed, because it doesn't.
Chaz, just wants to break the car. He probably sticks fire crackers up little puppies arses so he can watch them blow up and wince in pain ... he has the same sick mentality. Bring back Tony Roberts any day over this confused car destroyer.
Pete |
PeterS (Peters)
Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 889
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 1:48 am: | |
Here's a guy that needs serious help. After his post stating he was not going to post any longer, he posts about 15 more. There is nobody more despicable than a person who is entrusted with such a nice car and goes out and beats it to death and brags on a public forum. This is a place were we show our smarts. I think Chaz should have some meaningful conversations with Tony Pantera. |
Darryl Barrow (Tr328)
New member
Username: Tr328
Post Number: 1
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 1:19 am: | |
Anyone can redline a car or even tear up an engine by keeping the pedal to the floor. It is a good thing you plan to buy the car because you will have problems in the future. These cars are not indestructible or for that matter any car. Obviously you can not afford to buy the TR now, you may not be able to buy the car plus pay an additional 20K-25K for repairs. I think it can be done, you proved it, but makes no sense to abuse a fine automobile. Change your name to LUCKY. Take care and slow down. |
J.W. A. (Boxer12)
New member
Username: Boxer12
Post Number: 23
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 12:37 am: | |
Is it true that the faster the engine (and drive train) revs, the more inertial force it develops? Is HP a true measure of inertia?
Who knows? Who cares? I know one thing, Sergei F crashed his Ferrari because he is an adrenalin junkie...the playoffs are over, he is looking for that high that he can only get when running at 110, maybe 120%. Chaz is the same breed. He is addicted to adrenalin. It is a great high man. Check it out! Ferrari delivers baby! (That's my reason for driving one.)
BTW, Pete, I for one, am 45 going on 21. I have over 250,000 miles logged on high performance sports cars (Corvette at 18-26, Posha Euro Carrera from 26 to 43, Fcars now) and another 150,000 mi on high performance motorcycles. Still revving it, baby! Check out trackattack.com and go have some fun. Or drive my car. Maybe if you were in someone else's car you would enjoy it! Come to our party on F1 race day. Chaz and I want to take you on a trip to the wild side!
(I am sure this thread will be banned soon...it is expressing some very questionable notions, eh?) |
Peter Pless (Aircon)
New member
Username: Aircon
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 11:21 pm: | |
I've timed my 355CH from 100-160kph changing gears at 8000, 8500 and 9000. i'm sorry, i don't remember the times, but changes at 8500 and 9000 were the same (so change at 8500 obviously) and at 8000 it definitely took significantly longer.
palways change gears 500rpm lower than redline when running hard, I was told by some drivers that most cars do not gain any horsepower from just 500rpm bellow redline to redline. Thats the way I drive my testarossa. Any opinions about this??? |
L. (Testaroja)
New member
Username: Testaroja
Post Number: 22
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 10:43 pm: | |
B? B
palways change gears 500rpm lower than redline when running hard, I was told by some drivers that most cars do not gain any horsepower from just 500rpm bellow redline to redline. Thats the way I drive my testarossa. Any opinions about this??? |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 556
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 6:59 pm: | |
Chaz,
Never, ever called you a liar (many other things, but not this).
The only thing close to this was:
quote:Anyway sounds like the rev counter needs sorting or we are exaggerating a little.
Funny how you guys think you have to over rev an engine to think you are driving your Ferraris fast. How old are you all?
I have raced cars at club level for around 9 years and raced hard, and won championships and had a ball. Yep I have blown up engines, but over revving an engine is just stupid from an acceleration point of view and stress on the engine point of view.
Please talk to JRV, or somebody with more experience than I and find out what the professionals think.
Have a look at torque curve graphs for the TR engine (actually any engine) and you will see that you are actually REDUCING the cars acceleration potential by over revving.
There is no justifiable reason for over revving an engine. It just makes no sense what so ever, just change up and go faster!
I thought I was talking to mature people, I now realise that I am talking to the uninformed.
I feel sorry for every vehicle/bike you have ever owned Chaz (and the others). Even the awesome Busa has a rev limit, it is just very high.
I do hope that you survive until your maturity has a chance to develop, for your families sake (and any other innocent bystander that ends up in the accident that is caused by the you)
Best of luck for the future.
Pete |
chaz richards (Chaa)
New member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 6:51 pm: | |
Steve its a 1999 bike brought it from new and never changed it for a 00 model becourse of that reason.As a rule in the UK an unrestricted bike is more sortafter,so i will keep hold of mine mate,so my bike is capable of an indicated 200mph with a true speed of around 195.C |
Steve Burns (Sjb509)
New member
Username: Sjb509
Post Number: 10
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 6:42 pm: | |
Chaz,
If your Hayabusa is '00 or newer it is restricted in the electronic brain to 186 mph or so. Try dragbike.com for aftermarket parts to help it go faster. Some turbo 'Busa's put out over 300 rwhp on pump gas! |
chaz richards (Chaa)
New member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 6:33 pm: | |
In fact Tom the unrestricted Bussa does this with ease come on every one knows the Bussa is the worlds fastest road production bike.No bussa i have ever ridden or known floats valves becourse they DONT.I am assuming you are talking about the Bussa,becourse if you are talking about the TR i dont want to hear any more opions about what could have happend....it didnt dude every things ooookkkk! C ps. in fact i fell the need...oh •••• it iam going out again right now to do it again, TE! HE! |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 442
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 6:16 pm: | |
Your so lucky you didn't float the valves my friend |
chaz richards (Chaa)
New member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 45
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 6:05 pm: | |
Hi all, just thought i would tell you i rode my Hyabusa at 197mph tonight about an hour ago,tell me does any one know how to remove the rev limiter,i need more.And no i wont trash my self or the bike i will be here for quite a while to piss off the sensible brigade.HA! HA! only Kidding keep ya false teeth in...............er how do you remove it.C |
Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member
Username: Tvrfreak
Post Number: 293
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 2:57 pm: | |
What's an extremely valuable car to you can be a very disposable item for others. Some people worship Ferraris, others just want to exploit every last ounce of performance out of them. If they break, it's time to fix them or get a new one.
I suspect Chaz and his "boss" belong to the latter group. |
Dave (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 516
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
Hi all, It's been a while since I have posted on F-Chat,
So I thought I'd get back to it by starting off by being an A-hole.....
Chaz, you da man...
I have let other Ferrari owners drive my cars,
and I have driven other owners cars as well...
But, with the respect we share for each other, I nor my friends would ever think of doing something as stupid as over-reving a car "borrowed" from a friend!
And then just to prove that you disrespect your boss as much as the engine in his car, you over-rev it some more so that you can snap a few pics.
What are you smoking boy...
Ever see a dyno run sheet showing the power curves on that engine?
Guess not.
Well, it was good to stretch the legs.
|
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 150
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 11:07 am: | |
Steve.. JWA.. god bless you...
"here's my opinion: If it's your car you can do whatever the heck you want with it " and
"Personally, I think engine abuse is sitting in f**** traffic (ala L.A.) with the A/C on all day.
I would rather buy Chaz' test car than all the garage queens in Texas!"
Let em rip guys
|
Steve Jenkins (Stevej)
New member
Username: Stevej
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 10:04 am: | |
Chaz:
The reason I didn't post earlier is that I never hang out on this Web site, but someone who does and who knows I made that video emailed me yesterday and alerted me to it.
All you guys who have differing opinions over whether or not you should/shouldn't rev your engine to a certain level, here's my opinion: If it's your car you can do whatever the heck you want with it
Steve |
J.W. A. (Boxer12)
New member
Username: Boxer12
Post Number: 19
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 9:13 am: | |
Whats up with all the hostility?? Lets just have fun! Some guys do it in the redline, some piss their pants at 6.
Personally, I think engine abuse is sitting in f**** traffic (ala L.A.) with the A/C on all day.
I would rather buy Chaz' test car than all the garage queens in Texas!
I am from Indy and we run our cars here boys! Was on the Indy track last week and sure I was in the redzone, but who cars? I was busting thru corners, tires breaking loose, having fun! Most guys were going 30 mph! Take your little covertible out for a Sunday drive boys and have a nice look at the track. Whatever.
Want to hear what one sounds like at 8000 rpm? I made a video. Can't post it though, too big of a file.
Have fun Chaz. You are having experiences that money can't buy. (Or can it??) I know I am. |
chaz richards (Chaa)
New member
Username: Chaa
Post Number: 44
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 8:12 am: | |
Who said anything about public roads i did not.As far as the UK police are concerned they should put there own drivers in order,and before any one says they have training,becourse of the nature of my own work so have i. But i understand your point tony.C |
tony hopkins (Tonyh)
New member
Username: Tonyh
Post Number: 5
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 6:25 am: | |
you u.k. boys should be careful p.c. plod does not look at these posts!.... can't imagine they'll be too pleased about the speed you 2 are doing on public roads.
tony |
Justyn (Justynb)
New member
Username: Justynb
Post Number: 26
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 6:11 am: | |
It was the Shell petrol station at Allestree, I tooted the horn and waved and a guy waved back at me. It wasn't 5pm though, more like midday. I didn't see the reg properly but it looked like it was one number and three letters, something like "1 OUO"
From there we drove to the pub where I saw you later on.
Justyn. |
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