| Author |
Message |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 436
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 6:28 pm: | |
Caveat Emptor. Buyer beware. In California a private party sale is automatically assumed "As Is" and putting that in your Bill of sale is just redundency. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 120
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 2:26 pm: | |
KDS... do you mean that if an owner has major repair done that he does not have to declare that to a buyer? Many a suit has been lost by owners that held back that info. Most States require either complete disclosure or an AS-IS statement. |
Kds (Kds)
New member
Username: Kds
Post Number: 23
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 12:55 am: | |
Jeffrey....
He is only correct in that the door for recourse is open against the VENDOR of the car if the VENDOR does not comply with the terms of the sale and provides the records in a manner acceptable to the PURCHASER at the time of delivery or unless otherwise documented.
The previous or current servicing dealer is under no obligation whatsoever to provide anything without written authorization. We weren't sitting around the coffee table with those two when the deal was drawn up.
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Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 117
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 12:46 am: | |
Damn.. hate to agree with JRV but he is correct. There is verly little legal recourse a previous owner has in refrence to service records. Carfax or a title search will provide you with detailed info about owners and any car sold in the US that is represented as having records and then sold without them opens the door for legal action against the seller and/or the owner by state goverment.There is no legal expectation of privacy given to owners that sell their cars.once you put it on the market full disclosure is actually the letter of the law in ALL states. don't you remember the risks of fines, loss of dealerships and jail time that lead to that neat little piece of paper on all used cars? |
Kds (Kds)
New member
Username: Kds
Post Number: 21
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 12:28 am: | |
"Note to replies"....laws vary from state to state and province to province....I am speaking with regards to where I do business. Please understand that I sympathize with those of you who have gone thru this situation.....I do on almost a weekly basis.
JRV....
To me, the term "sold with records" refers to a car that is delivered with the "original" receipts/copies of work orders/stamped owners service book/etc provided by the selling owner. It does not mean that a dealer/service shop will open a car file after the fact, and copy whatever the new owner wants just because he bought the car from the previous owner. I deal with this all the time when I purchase cars or take them on trade. Co-incidentally, many lease companies write a clause in their contracts and penalize you accordingly if these items (books/records) are not returned with the vehicle at lease end.....for obvious reasons.
It is incumbent upon the purchaser and the vendor to assure that the documentation expected/provided is up to their expectations. It is not legally up to the dealer/service shop to disclose anything unless they have been authorized to do so by the previous owner by way of direct instruction as in a letter of authorization.
Mr.Doody.....
I have often verbally confirmed services done to a car and stamped the service books at no charge to polite requests from new owners of cars. That is IMHO a moral obligation that I do out of goodwill. Anything beyond that however better have a letter on file.
BrianW.....
Selling a car with records is done all the time....if you get them in the first place to hand to the next owner. People that are too busy to remember to get the book stamped, or put their copy of the work order in the leather pouch are the situations that I have difficulty with. Just saying to me that the dealer has it on file doesn't cut it with me.....nor would it with a prospective purchaser.
I once saw a service manager inform a guy who requested a complete 20 year old car file on a Mercedes SL be copied for his records as he had just purchased the car from a used car broker. I heard him say that he would happily comply with the previous owner of records authorization letter and a hourly flat fee of $85 for the white out work and copying of some 100 pages. The guy refused....he thought that the dealer where I worked should have taken one of our salaried employees off their regular work for 3-4 hours to do this for free. Incidentally.....the previous owner whom we spoke to a few days later on a totally unrelated matter would have refused to give him a letter in any event.
Ken....
Good point. Lots of exotic owners for example who bang their cars pay for the repairs at a body shop as opposed to setting off alarm bells at insurance companies, etc, where carfax/similiar services or the legal DMV authority would get notified of the repair. Some go so far as to order parts from thousands of miles away and ship them to a source where they are picked up and then reshipped to the bodyshop to wash the order.
What recourse would the previous owner of said car have against a business for the unauthorized release of details of a "business contract for goods and services" to a person who was not party to the original contract ?
Dave Penhale.....
Of course they create value.....that is not the debate here however.
Insofar as concealement goes, if you are referring to me that's unfortunate, because you don't know me and are unaware of the laws under which I operate and the penalties that I can suffer if I practice what you state.
I operate on the basis on full disclosure. Always have....always will....it's year 15 now. It's also morally correct. FYI dealers in the jurisdiction where I operate are required by law to do so under severe penalty that is enforced....believe it or not.....it's been long overdue.
Peter.....
We don't want to mishold information. Just release it legally without recourse aginst us.
Ricky....
Congrats.....looks like you'll have the pedigree for your car in place shortly.
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Ricky Nardis (Rickyn_f355)
Member
Username: Rickyn_f355
Post Number: 380
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 9:12 am: | |
hey guys, thnx for the responses...i didnt think it was that crazy of a thing to request. Anyhow, i left a message for the previous owner and he was nice enough to call me back...he is going to call Miller and another dealer in Toronto and ask them to release the service records to me. It was nice to hear him confirm that the car had only been brought in for oil changes and minor services. Funny how much more "complete" it feels to know exactly where your car has been!
:-) |
Peter (Bubba)
Member
Username: Bubba
Post Number: 442
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 8:22 am: | |
I don't see why dealers would withhold such info from you. When I bought the Mondial, the dealer showed me a huge binder filled service records and photos from when it first arrived in the mid-80s. I was able to see who owned the car from when. If I really wanted, I could have asked them to photocopy the whole thing.
As we F-car owners know, we need to keep track of when to change the belts and such. Without prior records, how do we go about doing that. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 720
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 8:11 am: | |
ugh, upon reading further there's a nasty taste of 'concealment' coming out of a couple of members on this thread, be ashamed you should be. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 719
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 8:09 am: | |
KDS, what a load of bull, get real kidder, as JRV points out, those service records often form part of the sale value of the vehicle. |
Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member
Username: Paulie_b
Post Number: 362
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 7:39 am: | |
I would try to get it directly from MM otherwise take the suggestion of KDS. Ask for it in wriitng. It is certainly good info to have on your car. Good luck. Keep us posted. Does anyone on FChat have a friend at MM that can help Ricky out? |
Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member
Username: Allyn
Post Number: 1004
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 9:57 pm: | |
Interesting moral dilema! On the one hand, a mechanic needs to be an owner's friend. What was done on a car; and NOT done for whatever reason, is something an owner may not want to be made public. When he sells the car, and says he has "some" records, he may want to cover up "suggested" maintainence that he couldn't afford or didn't want to do.
So he's not lying but covering up some history. What about the mechanic? Should he be an accessory? Or does he feel he wants the new prospective owner to know what he knows. I can't say right off what I would do. I need to be loyal to my customers, but cars are art and there's a basic honesty that an artist would adhere to and thus feel an obligation to tell the new prospective owner of things he knows about the car. |
Brian W (Jetx)
New member
Username: Jetx
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 9:36 pm: | |
>>>it's kinda like walking into a doctor's office and asking to see a new girlfriends medical records without her knowledge.<<<
It's not the same thing. We're talking about an inanimate object, and I hardly think the Ferrari care's whether the new owner thinks he should/shouldn't see the previous records.
Additionally, I can understand making photocopies and "whiting" out the previous owners name and contact info.
But knowing you don't supply records, how do you actually sell Ferraris (as an exotic car salesman)? I'd never buy a car without records, and you are very clear in that without consent, you don't release them. |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1255
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 8:26 pm: | |
notwithstanding kds's legal metaphor, i actually can't recall any FNA dealer NOT sharing records they had on a car i asked about over the phone. certainly they all were happy to talk about it ("oh, we did X and Y on date Z; and then there was a problem with A on date B and we had to do recall M then as well" etc.). many faxed me copies of the paperwork. in retrospect, they were quite trusting - i could easily have been some joker looking to argue my way to a false title or whatnot - who knows. maybe MM is better about this than most?
doody. |
stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Member
Username: Ethans_dad
Post Number: 334
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 8:17 pm: | |
If MM has the records, I'd keep trying. Seems like a reasonable request to me. I requested the service records from the independant that serviced my car and they simply gave me a file folder with the complete history photocopied. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1748
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 8:10 pm: | |
>>As you were not the owner who contracted the work at the time of the service you have no legal rights whatsoever to the documents<<
...that is only true "if the car was specifically sold WITH NO RECORDS".
Now IF the car was sold with books and records the seller is in legal default if they forget, refuse, lost, the records.
Additionaly a "service history" is not a legal contract between previous owner and anyone...it is a recorded historical care and maintance situation that belongs to the car and whomever owns it all the way down the line. |
Kds (Kds)
New member
Username: Kds
Post Number: 20
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 2:36 pm: | |
Ricky....
As you were not the owner who contracted the work at the time of the service you have no legal rights whatsoever to the documents, unless some warranty/whatever arising from the work may have accrued to you for your benefit in which case the dealer may still refuse and IMHO rightfully so.
It's kinda like walking into a doctor's office and asking to see a new girlfriends medical records without her knowledge.
I appreciate your frustration.......and I know why you want them.....I would too......
I'd be curious to see what is their stance in this regard anyways ?
Good luck. |
Ricky Nardis (Rickyn_f355)
Member
Username: Rickyn_f355
Post Number: 378
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 2:11 pm: | |
kds, given that i own the car now i dont see what i shouldnt be entitled to the paperwork. I mean it's a car, not someone's first born. Anyway, i have never been able to reach the owner because i think he is an ER doctor and doesnt list a home phone. |
Kds (Kds)
New member
Username: Kds
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
As a car dealer I refuse to release previous service records to anyone unless I have a written consent on file and have made a phone call to the previous owners in question to verify the authenticity of the said letter.
Service records are copies of a legal contract for services between a vehicle owner and a business establishment and get treated as such.
This may be why you are having issues.
On a side note, but a similiar vein.....people often ask me what a particular car sold for....to which I reply......"It was listed at XXX,XXX however the final agreed upon price is between the buyer and seller".......if an owner wants to tell....fine. But not me.
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Ricky Nardis (Rickyn_f355)
Member
Username: Rickyn_f355
Post Number: 377
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 2:05 pm: | |
Miller Motorcars. They sold and serviced it from 95 to 99. I would greatly appreciate if anyone could help me out. Thnx. |
Erik (Teenferrarifan)
Member
Username: Teenferrarifan
Post Number: 272
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 2:03 pm: | |
Ricky where was your car sold orig. I am sure some guys here will be able to help you out with whatever dealership sold it to you.
Erik |
Ricky Nardis (Rickyn_f355)
Member
Username: Rickyn_f355
Post Number: 376
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 1:48 pm: | |
from previous owners? I'm having a hard time getting them for my car. |