| Author |
Message |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 609
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 7:01 pm: | |
I initiated this thread out of frustration - the frustration that everyone experiences upon the loss of someone close - the frustration that manifests itself by the comment, "Damn, I wish I could just have one more moment with them." Or, "Damn, you dumb s##t, what were you thinking? Why did you do that?"
Despite the well-known bumper sticker, "Life is not a dress rehearsal," it is a dress rehearsal. We learn from others' mistakes. If we don't, then we are doomed to repeat them. Let me be perfectly clear, there is no disrespect intended to two F-chat colleagues. In my initial post, I said that no one knows of his driving ability or of the car's flaws. Simply stated, the proof is in the pudding. Something went wrong; terribly wrong. We MUST learn by it. We must not repeat it, and the simplest lesson has nothing to do with cars or driving: Unless you are an island, someone cares about you. Don't put yourself in this situation.
Jim S. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 127
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 6:14 pm: | |
NEAL>.. amen. I have always believed that ownership of any high powered machine should only be allowed if the buyer can produce proof of his ability. Even if they are really great people, wealthy untrained owners are a hazard to themselves and other drivers when they are on the road or the track. A 45 year old man with no previous racing experience would not be hired to drive for a F3000 team so why would they be any more able to handle their very first 450HP Ferrari. Putting them on a track and encouraging them to go fast is the same as giving a child an Uzi. He may or may not figure out how to shoot it.. but everyone in the area is at risk. Mix in the EGO and vanity that usually is required to be sucessful enough to own that Ferrari and you can see the risks go up. |
neal (95spiderneal)
Junior Member
Username: 95spiderneal
Post Number: 168
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 4:34 pm: | |
the attitude that "youre times up when its up" has no place in a dangerous hobby like ours!
a true tribute that might lead to something positive coming of this tragedy would be for all of us to realize we ARE in control of our fates on the track. i saw way too many shunts at a recent fca event that were all avoidable if the amature drivers would put their egos aside and go for fun not im faster than you.
also, too many of the silly my cars faster than an fcar threads turn into "i can drive faster than you" contests so lets meet on some track. theres no place for this.
ultra aggressive, 10/10ths driving will only ensure youre time will be up. |
Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 2079
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 4:27 pm: | |
THANK YOU HUBERT, MY SAME SENTIMENTS IN THE "JENS ACCIDENT" THREAD
BRUCE |
Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member
Username: Hugh
Post Number: 936
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 4:23 pm: | |
At this point any discussion is vivdily flawed with speculation; the only facts we've been able to gather is that Jens and Amar died, what precipitated that event was an automobile crash. The reasons surrounding, leading up to, and finally culminating in the series of events that caused their deaths are still unknown; therefore, there is no empirical data from which to extrapolate any basis for a relavent, technical, and objective discussion. This invariably reduces any "racer talk" or "engineering" talk to the equivelant product of barber shop gossip. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 124
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 3:58 pm: | |
Martin.. thanks for expressing thoughts that I also shared. Putting a road car on a race track without any of the precautions that a racing machine or racing event requires is just upping the risks. Allowing any owner with a high powered toy to attack a course like the ring without some form of training is. in my mind, criminal. |
Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 4918
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 3:54 pm: | |
A day later and I am not sure if it is time but one thing really scares me at the Ring:
- It is open to all drivers and all idiots that can afford $14 for a ride.
- There is no safety equipment needed to ride. No fire extinguisher, no rollbar requirements, no helmet (now that is dumb), no fire suit requirements etc.
To me the absolute must on the track is always a fire bottle. If you can not help yourself with it you may be able to safe someone elses life. I am sure there were several people behind the two thgat could have sprung into action but had nothing they could do.
A helmet may have saved them. Rolling they may have banged their heads on the frame and became unconcious (and one can only hope so).
A fire NOMEX gives you some extra seconds to get out.
Jim,
if ther eis a lesson to be learned it is no more rides and ride alongs without helmet, NOMEX suit, fire bottle. If you enjoy the track like I do, no day without. After seeing my friend burn up his Lambo Diable GTR I will never get into any car on the track without those 3 essential things! Never again!
Other than that I agree with William, when your time is up, its up.
I posted on the german treat of the Ring fan that they should fix the current lack of safety requirements. They are just as shocked as we are and they are more familiar with the death of the Ring. Some have seen Amar and Jens roll out. It hit them and they have the right idea. There needs to be an improvement.
We need to look at our own safety requirements for club events as well. If you own a $ 30K - $200K car you can hopefully afford a NOMEX suit for $300. So should your passenger! And especially in the Touring group is where mistakes can happen.
Those are the lessons. |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 738
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 1:33 pm: | |
William,
That is very interesting and a good point.
Fred |
William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member
Username: Countachxx
Post Number: 2659
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 10:01 am: | |
Jim, Yes & no. I believe that when your # is up there is nothing you can do about it.
The great race car driver Tazio Nuvolari was asked by a reporter "How do you summon the courage to get into your race car when you could be killed at any time?"
Nuvolari answered " How would you wish to die?"
reporter " Asleep in my bed"
Nuvolari "Then how do you summon the courage to get into bed every night?" |
DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 82
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 9:05 am: | |
James, I also tend to retreat from shock into the colder logic of engineering. But that doesn't really work for everyone.
It's a little early for a root cause analysis, I think.
Meanwhile, if it helps you: http://www.atlinc.com/racing/page14.htm
Or:
Simple minded brain,
for now you succumb
Nothing changes your way
This worlds insists to be the same
based on our mistakes
The flowers fade along the road
Don't blindfold your eyes,
so loneliness becomes the law of a senseless life
Follow your steps and you will find
The unknown ways are on your mind
Need nothing else than just your pride to get there...
Go!
Now we have to face another day
You won't be alone
This life is forcing us to stay
- For how long?
Cold is the wind and thunder struck on a stormy night
But can't you see, I'm by your side
We are marching on!
Follow your steps and you will find
The unknown ways are on your mind
Need nothing else than just your pride to get there...
So, carry on,
There's a meaning to life
Which someday we may find... from Angra - Carry On - from the album "Angels Cry"
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James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 608
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:54 pm: | |
Wasn't intended to be a sermon - more an engineering analysis. Something bad happened. Let's learn by it.
Jim S. |
Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member
Username: Me_k
Post Number: 574
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:34 pm: | |
Well, it may not be time for a lesson, but it should be time for reflection. As an engineer, when something goes wrong I want to fix it. I think that is where James is coming from. Some things just can not be fixed, and the future can not be predicted. Sometimes, even when you do everything right bad things happen. I think we all know that driving fast on the street is extremely dangerous. It�s safer at a track, so that makes it very dangerous, I think we try to forget that. I try to forget it because I enjoy it so much. After personally seeing a couple of terrible accidents at closed course events, I�ve begun preaching the virtues of sanctioned events, which probably brings it down from very dangerous to just dangerous. Bad things can still happen, they just don�t happen as often. |
Erich Walz (Deleteall)
Member
Username: Deleteall
Post Number: 404
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 10:01 pm: | |
I didn't know either one of them, never even traded jabs with them, but this is clearly one of your issues and you're using their deaths as a vehicle for your sermon-really uncool.
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Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member
Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 1156
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 9:57 pm: | |
Indeed James . This Sad day needs to end .
Goodnight to you too.
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James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1760
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 9:53 pm: | |
Andrew
I think we all need some sleep. Goodnight my friend.
Best |
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member
Username: Amenasce
Post Number: 1155
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 9:45 pm: | |
I dunno , i dont think its time for a lesson.
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James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 607
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 9:34 pm: | |
Indeed, their loss is heart felt. However, the real tragedy is that this should not have happened. This was not an accident, and therefore, we can learn by it. An accident, by its very definition, offers little to learn and cannot be avoided. However, this was, to a certain extent, predictable. Therefore, this community should study the event, thoroughly understand the preceding actions that led to it, and make sure that it doesn�t happen again. The families� left to suffer and, perhaps, your families, deserve a careful analysis.
Why was it predictable? While only a few of us were privileged to know these gentlemen and their driving skills, clearly, it was their skill or automobile that fell short. This, I assume, was not their profession. This was their hobby. The consequences of a hobby should not leave a family grieving. What of a rock climber, or a hang glider? I maintain the same. These are �selfish� hobbies in the lack of respect for those that will be left behind should a catastrophe occur. I have had the pleasure of �cruising� with several Southern California F-Chat members, and believe we were driving too fast. It takes but an instant for a child to run into the street, or a dog to cause you to lose your line through a turn, or a failed wheel bearing to reveal itself.
Yes, this was on a closed circuit. Yes, this was a car capable, in theory, of speed. Yes, these were young men with young reflexes. Despite this �perfect� situation, bad things happened.
The next time you are enjoying your F-car on the edge, ask yourself what your wife, or kids, or parents will feel should a bad thing happen. It just is not worth it. Drive at 70%, not 110%. If you want to drive beyond the limit, do it on ice in a large parking lot with orange cones. At 20 miles per hour, it is a thrill, and no one will get hurt.
If you make your living driving fast, then disregard these comments.
Just my thoughts.
Jim S.
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