| Author | Message | ||
| Chris F. (Chrisfromri)
Junior Member Username: Chrisfromri Post Number: 56 Registered: 1-2003 |
I absolutely agree Mark! The other consideration is that many such cars are more what one might call "virtual cars" -- and cannot show up... Kind Regards, Chris | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 591 Registered: 5-2002 |
There was a thread a while back that started quoting magazine specs and lap times in the �a this will beat a that because� mode. It got a little old and I simply posted that in spite of the published specs, I believed my 20 year old 308 would beat any of them because in order to beat something, you need to race it and I didn�t believe any of them would show up and enter the race. The only thing I required was that it was a sanctioned race event. I also stated that prefer a timed event over a wheel to wheel because I don�t want to damage the car. The response was all but one dropped away immediately, I suggested solo2 because no car prep is required, but that was not acceptable, apparently that is about driving well and he wanted to show me how fast his car was. I suggested solo 1, it�s high speed, but requires some prep, roll bar, etc, well that was no good because of the car prep required. He preferred to race at a club track day where they don�t require the prep. I pointed out that the one rule they have at all club track days is no racing and restated that I will race at a sanctioned race event only. He got pretty upset with me and never really seemed to understand the difference between having fun driving fast at track day and entering a race or why I would insist on a sanctioned race event that requires all that car prep when the track day doesn�t. Again I pointed out that the only place that I know they will let you race a street car is at a solo 2 event because it is simply not safe at higher speeds without making some basic modifications, like adding a roll bar. I never did manage to get the point across then...... | ||
| Kent R. DeAvilla (Lust4spyders)
New member Username: Lust4spyders Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2003 |
I drove my 87 Mondial 3.2 Cabriolet from Reno to Las Vegas in 3.5 hours on Hwy 395. Average speed 120 mph. I was with Jimi in his 87' Testarossa. I had a top speed of 154 mph. Good Times.... | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 942 Registered: 1-2003 |
Vincent...No. They canceled that event. Kinda sad with all of the fast cars in the bay area..Maybe next year! | ||
| Chris F. (Chrisfromri)
Junior Member Username: Chrisfromri Post Number: 54 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dino, I frankly didn't expect you to accept my challenge to a real sanctioned SCCA Solo2 race to settle which of us is better "trained" at racing their car through an unfamilar technical race course. However, I thought it might make you put up, or shut up. My point has simply been to be reasonable when pushing one's car and ability, as we on this board do have something to live for. I have too many friends that are now dead, handicapped, or have injured others to continually remind me of this. It's the same thing with road rage. I am professionally trained to get out of the way and simply let these idiots go away, since I have a lot more to live for than they. None of this has to do with my prowess in the bedroom. It has to do with my being successful in business and in marriage, and my desire to live a long life enjoying the fruits of my success with my family and friends. Life is about balance, and wonderful cars and driving experiences need not upset that balance. With your long list of wonderful cars I would think that you would have a similar desire as me. However, you seem much more willing to risk it all in a split second that could ruin the quality of your life forever. That is your decision, and clearly your right to go boldly forth embracing -- just don't ruin the quality of anyone else's life (such as an innocent participant in this forum, or some unknowing driver on the street). Now, you were the one who tossed out the term "wimp" in your earlier discourse, so we should dispatch that matter right now. Is the "wimp" the person who made the challenge to a fair legally sanctioned race of driving speed through a race course where neither racer has the advantage of being familiar with the race course? Or, is the "wimp" the person who backed down from the challenge saying "I have nothing to prove", and then softened their stated position? I find it ironic that you were the one who tossed out the term, to only in the end have it apply to yourself. BTW, I am not taking offense to any of your comments, since I believe it's quite evident that all you have managed to do is embarrass yourself in front of everyone here. Kind Regards, Chris | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 941 Registered: 1-2003 |
Vincent...No. They canceled that event. Kinda sad with all of the fast cars in the bay area..Maybe next year! | ||
| Dino Micalizio (Ingenere)
Junior Member Username: Ingenere Post Number: 53 Registered: 12-2001 |
Chris F: Apparently, judgeing by your response, you are having WPS (weak penis syndrome). SCCA Solo is a great series. However I am involved in running a vintage Indycar ('87 March/Cosworth). I'm sure your class B is a great car....but frankly I have nothing to prove...especially to people that I don't know. My point....if you thought it through....was to enjoy life and not live it with the perverbeal stick up your butt...live it safely, reasonably...but always to the max, and that Europeans have it going on when it comes to driving. We Americans spend most of our time worrying what everyone else thinks , trying not offend anyone and blaming everyone else for their problems. Have fun in class B... | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 696 Registered: 4-2003 |
Peter, Did anyone race the airplane, sorry i couldn't make it. But that's how fast you should drive it. vincent | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 933 Registered: 1-2003 |
Pete..Thank you..I printed this and it will be on my list, in my log book 'work to do' section. (Is that anal or what!) | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 573 Registered: 11-2002 |
What I refer to as the 'stub axle' is the thing that the wheel bearings run on. With a front wheel this is usually part of the hub and thus connects your suspension to the wheel. If this breaks good bye wheel!!! Thus when I built my last club car I had both front stub axles crack tested by an engineering firm and also the rear axles (as if an axle breaks, good bye rear wheel ... on that car). They paint something on the part and then look at it under some special light (I think) and cracks show up. Pete | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 931 Registered: 1-2003 |
Pete..Thanks for the post. My mechanic told me he would let me help on this job next spring. With all I am doing to it now, its not in the budget right now (the GF wants new carpet). Will you please explain the 'stub axles crack test'? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 568 Registered: 11-2002 |
Back to the real issue. PeterS, I think you should put your car up on jack stands and do an each corner rebuild. By this I mean, remove all the suspension and steering components and check them out and put them back on. Once this is done (which is similar to what race cars go through ... ) then you will know that your car really is safe and ready for some action. You probably will find play here and there that you would otherwise have missed. It is a 30 year old car after all. I would even get stub axles crack tested ... As far as speeding on public roads goes ... until they change the rules in what ever country you live in, you have to play by the rules (even if they are stupid). I do agree that the europeans are attacking road safety correctly by educating the drivers. In Australia, New Zealand and it sounds like the USA they set the laws to the lowest driver ability. They do this because it is a cheap solution, and they are not prepared to spend the money to solve the REAL cause of accidents ... ie. inept drivers. In New Zealand and Australia it is seen as your God given right to drive ... how pathetic is that! Thus PeterS, once you are really sure your car is safe, put it on the track and have some fun, or be real careful on the road. A mistake on the road could harm an innocent person!, or even cause your car to be impounded. Just not worth it, as you have to think of that lowest skill level driver in front of you somewhere ... Good luck, and yep enjoy your Ferrari to the fullest, but insane speeds (on a public road) are not required. Brisk driving on a challenging windy road is enough to know what the car is all about ... if you require more get with your club on a race track  Pete | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 912 Registered: 1-2003 |
Dino..Your post was well done with excellent information. I do not agree with your statement..."If you bought a FERRARI to drive 55-65 mph...you should have bought a model and played on your desk!"....I assume the spirit of your statement is 'if you bought a Ferrari to drive the speed limit, you should not have'...In my opinion, the faster all of the other nuts on the road around me drive, the slower I want to drive (do the limit +5-8MPH). I think that when people see a Ferrari on the road keeping up with the general flow of traffic, it gives the drive a bit more class. Let the ricers have all the speed, its expected from them! | ||
| Chris F. (Chrisfromri)
Junior Member Username: Chrisfromri Post Number: 51 Registered: 1-2003 |
Interesting view Dino. I frankly think it's mostly just a blast of bravado though. However, if you would like to compete as the real man you're bragging you are, how about actually RACING me at a sanctioned SCCA Solo2 event? There we can legally see who is the wimp. You drive any car you own, I'll drive one of my lowly B-Stock cars, and then we'll see who's quicker after we each make one run on an unpracticed course (each of us having just a course walk prior to our run, on a freshly set-up course that neither of us has run before). Do you consider this drivel now? Kind Regards, Chris | ||
| thomas daniels (Castex)
New member Username: Castex Post Number: 7 Registered: 6-2003 |
Dino, they're raising the Italian limit to 150 kph from New Year's day '04; 130 is the max here in France and most of mainland Europe. | ||
| Gary Shaw (308930g)
New member Username: 308930g Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2003 |
Hi all. How fast? read on... About a 1-1/2 weeks ago, after watching the Canadian GP, I decided to take my 78 308 GTS for a ride. My car has been serviced by the great Ferrari mechanic Bob Wallace. For the previous owner, (the original owner for 25 years)Bob had installed the euro, single distributor set-up, the racing cams and pistons (remember the 308 rally/race cars?)etc. 8000 rpm redline. All stock Ferrari part no's. I just had the carbs rebuilt and added the euro ansa muffler. New shocks etc. The exhaust manifold has no provision for the air injectors etc. 290 hp (+ or -) So, about 25 miles east of Las Vegas, I was on a very wide 4 lane highway. The road was entirely empty. Out there you can see for miles. My 2 lanes were smooth. So...3rd gear to 7200 rev's. 4th gear to over 125mph... 5th gear to 7300 rpm's. The speedo showed 154mph! No Lie. I held it at this speed for about a mile. WOW! Yes the tires are good and I always check the pressures. The brakes are perfect etc. I would NEVER do this if I even thought another car was anywhere near. In traffic, the law is the law. I've done many, many driver ed laps in my 375hp euro 930. The 308 was rock solid at this speed. If someone would do this when there are others about, not good. If they would do this w/o knowing if their machine is capable, not good and not smart. I do agree that the track is the safest place to drive to your limits. It is great to feel the limit of the car, and learn safely. After watching some guy destroy his 911 GT2 at Watkins Glen for the sake of a little extra fun, you hopefully learn fast. All the best | ||
| Dino Micalizio (Ingenere)
Junior Member Username: Ingenere Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2001 |
After scanning much of this thread I have to admit that most Americans are uneducated (as drivers) and wimps(Thomas from Europe's comments aside). If your car is well maintained (as it should be)...and you are a trained driver (as you should be)...you should feel safe in a Ferrari at high speed. "Things happen"....of course they do...welcome to the world. Americans try to prevent everything, and when something does happen...try to blame it on someone or something else. If you are going to go fast...be ready for it! If you bought a FERRARI to drive 55-65 mph...you should have bought a model and played on your desk! If you can't bear the thought of tracking it...get real! Track events and driver's schools are wonderful and everyone who gets one of these cars should take a high performance driving school. I have seen red line in 5th in my F40, my 348, TR and Mondial t...and my 308....and nobody got hurt. Well, maybe a few bugs! The SL 55 AMG only does 155...the limiter will be off soon! Say hi to 202! Incidently...they are all great in the corners too! The only thing that could keep up with the SL at the track was a heavily modified Porsche....on slicks! I spend quite a bit of time driving in Europe where the traffic moves along quite nicely at 180-200 kph. I see fewer accidents there than I do here. I always feel that I am on the road with people who are actually paying attention to the driving...rather than their cell phone, the kids, their make up, their lunch or whatever else they have managed to stuff in to the cup holders. As Americans we really need to sharpen our driving skills. 16 years of age, being able to see over the steering wheel and taking drivers ed from the overweight gym teacher shouldn't qualify you to operate a car. In Europe it is a 2 year ordeal to become licensed. They just raised the speed limit in Italy to 130kph because they felt at the lower speeds...people won't pay attention. Brilliant and true! Incidently that 130 is virtually not enforced. If the simplest of our NATO buddies can figure this out...why can't we? When I go on FCA drives in the US it is essentially a speed limit parade to the restaurant where prefered parking and who has the lowest miles are the topics of conversation. I usually say..."see ya when you guys get there....bye"! I'm sorry if I have offended anyone or ruffled any feathers but I go nuts when I hear this drivel about being unsafe or endangering others. If you know what you are doing, and you pick your times and places carefully, have at it! It's what God and Enzo intended! | ||
| Chris F. (Chrisfromri)
New member Username: Chrisfromri Post Number: 48 Registered: 1-2003 |
I agree Mark, at a high speed track event (sometimes referred to as a driver education event on a road racing course) I never even approach 80 percent of what the car and I can do. First, SAFETY. Second, it's not a timed event (or it wouldn't be "driver education", it would instead be a "race" or a "racing class"). Accordingly there are no posted results, and thus there is no competition. Third, I have to drive my car home (and I prefer not to flatbed it home damaged). This is not to say that these events aren't fun Mitch, as they are indeed very much fun. Heck, just driving on those famous road racing courses is exciting. However, for the above mentioned reasons the limit is never approached (at least by me and those I know). Autocross (SCCA Solo2) on the other hand allows a more conservative person to drive at 100 percent, be competitive, be listed competitively in results, work towards improving one's results and standing, and even sometimes get a trophy in recognition of one's competitive spirit. These are just slower speed highly technical courses where a 1 mile run might have several dozen turns. It is the abundance of turns that keeps the speed slower. I have heard the seat time argument before. However, in any competitive venue the time in actual competition is always a minute fraction of the total time invested (e.g.: Olympic Sports such as Skiing; Sprinting; Swimming). I still remember Franz Klammer's downhill gold medal run, and how many seconds did that run last compared to his time investment. I feel that both have their place in the life of a sports car owner. Unfortunately, I see too few Ferraris being Autocrossed. I'm not sure of the reasons, but possibly one is snobbery since as it is pretty easy to get beaten by a "lesser" car. In my own case I happen to also own another sports car that is quicker handling than my Ferrari, and they both run in B class. I want to be competitive so I Autocross the quicker handling one. Kind Regards, Chris | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 488 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mitch- I've averaged I belive 78MPH around Sears Point, a course with 11 turns in 2.5 miles, ONE short straight (turn 10) and one 100+ downhill corner! Most fun you'll have with your clothes on! Best! Ben. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 589 Registered: 5-2002 |
I love the thrill of competition and driving at 100%....but I'm just not willing to take the risk of doing it at high speed anywhere. At a high speed track event I still would never push past 90% because the car is not equiped to survive a high speed crash (roll cage, fuel cell, �), and they don't give trophies so there is no thrill of victory. An autoX is a competition and is as fast as I'm will to drive at the limit without the proper safety equipment (roll cage, fire suit and suppression system, �). I have been thinking about prepping the car for solo 1 (time track event), I probably never will though. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Member Username: Dom Post Number: 255 Registered: 11-2002 |
I love autocrossing because it allows you to drive at the cars limit of handling (albeit at low speeds). The low speeds are a plus too, especially for older cars, since you are only wearing out your brakes, tires. The downside of autocrossing, as I see it, is that on a typical day, you may only get 3-4 runs. If each run lasts about 1 minute, you are taking about just a few minutes of "track" time for a whole day. Time trialing provides much more track time. However, it is much harder on the car, and there is more danger (both to the car, i.e. bent sheet metal, and to yourself) involved. I've only done a few time trials (less than 10), and none in my GT4. As soon as I have the time, I will try some time trials in the GT4. But, if I could get more track time in an autocross type event (maybe 15-20 runs?), I would go for it. Safer for the car, and for me. I've heard autocross being described as the most fun you can have in a car without getting into the back seat... Dom | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 792 Registered: 4-2002 |
"PS: While fairly new to Autocrossing, I agree it is a fun, safe, and inexpensive way to learn how your sports car handles at the limit." No particular disagreement, but: AutoX provides access to the low speed 'limit of handling'. Speeds rarely get over 60 MPH for any duration. Therefore, you are observing the mechanical limitations of the car, and never get into the realm when aerodynamics comes into play (120+). Road racing/Drivers Education events allow one to explore how the car handles when the tail comes out at 100 MPH with you foot flat on the floor. You get 20-30 minutes to get up to speed, try the line one to two dozen times, and then rest for an hour. Over a single session, it is not that difficult to average 75+ MPH on a track like TWS, a 2.9 mile 15 turn road course with 4 100+ MPH turns and 145 MPH straight; 80 MPH == 2 min 10 sec lap. In my pocket book, it is easily worth the 10X it cost to participate and quite likely much more. | ||
| Chris F. (Chrisfromri)
New member Username: Chrisfromri Post Number: 47 Registered: 1-2003 |
I'm pretty sure 308s are currently B Class for SCCA -- remember seeing it listed somewhere. A Class seems to be Vipers, Vettes, NSXs, and probably more modern Ferraris. Both my 308 QV and my S2000 have Bridgestone Potenza S-02 tires in front 205/55/16, and rear 225/50/16. Interesting they are both spec'd by the maker for identical tire sizes, huh? Both have stock sway bars, and alignment. My S2000 is a 2002 so it has stiffer springs and a softer sway bar than earlier S2000s, making it a little more forgiving in a drift. I have only been running street tires though (probably good this season since it seems to rain every other event), but I own an extra set of OEM S2000 wheels for track rubber -- although I'll have to drive there (50 miles) with with the track tires on. One of these days I'll get around to buying a set of track tires -- probably Yoko A032R in H in the OEM sizes (Hoosiers don't come in the OEM sizes). Any thoughts? Kind Regards, Chris PS: While fairly new to Autocrossing, I agree it is a fun, safe, and inexpensive way to learn how your sports car handles at the limit. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 588 Registered: 5-2002 |
Chris, Mike I only got to run mine in stock class the first year I had it, that was 3 years ago and they put it in A. It was me and a Z3, he won by about a second if I recall. When I got there, they didn't know where to put me (one guy told me he been doing it 20 years, and this was the first time he'd ever seen a ferrari roll in)and looked it up in the book, A it was. They may very well have changed it since then though, I've been running Emod (unlimited modifications, over 2 liter)the last 2 years. I have no doubt that a stock S2000 is faster than a stock 308. Good tires and bigger front anti-sway bar (one can't change the rear bar in stock class) should change that though. | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 410 Registered: 10-2002 |
My 308 competes as B-class; I believe that all 308s are. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 819 Registered: 8-2001 |
I would say 5 MPH over the speed limit should be just fine!!!!!!! | ||
| Chris F. (Chrisfromri)
New member Username: Chrisfromri Post Number: 45 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mark, or anyone who autocrosses, Is a stock 308 really in A Class, I thought it was a B Class car? A is even a rougher class than B, with even less PAX help. Mine is a stock 308 QV, and I've never taken it to an autox. I have instead been taking my bone stock S2000 to the autox since I feel I can go quicker in it (and I thought both were B Class cars, easier decision I guess if the 308 really is an A Class car). Kind Regards, Chris | ||
| John Millard (Jmillard308)
New member Username: Jmillard308 Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2003 |
Drive it like you stole it! ;-) | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5438 Registered: 8-2002 |
In Los Angeles, If you are racing another car, they sieze it and sell it. M | ||
| mike 308 (Concorde)
Junior Member Username: Concorde Post Number: 231 Registered: 8-2002 |
Here in the U.S., if you're caught going over 100 mph on the road remember that most states don't just give you a ticket, they put you in JAIL. That's an added risk if you're NOT on the track. | ||
| Peter Jesson (Redeye308)
New member Username: Redeye308 Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2003 |
How fast can I drive my 308? No faster than your capability. As soon as you become a passenger behind the wheel, you're in trouble. Prior to buying a 308 I had a trio of Porsches. I once did 145+ in my 3.2 Carrera and it felt reasonably safe. One does however experience tunnel vision at these speeds and events close by may be missed. I doubt I will ever push the 308 past 125-130 on a quiet motorway (interstate) or dual carriageway (divided highway)it feels more delicate and I can't afford to hear a loud bang behind my seat. I think everyone who owns a high performance car wants to remind themselves occasionally that they are not in a Ford Focus; just choose the time and place carefully - and know your limitations... | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 586 Registered: 5-2002 |
"Always remember, you can die just as easially in a Toyota in rush hour traffic, as in a Ferrari having the time of your life. Might as well have some fun." Actually, although it's pretty easy to have a fender bender, it's pretty hard to die in rush hour trafic, and it's surprisingly easy at 120+....much less chance at the track than or the street, but I still wouldn't really call it safe...fun is the word I usually choose which dodges the issue nicely. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 477 Registered: 6-2002 |
"As fast as you are willing to accept the consequences for" I couldn't agree more. Don't go 5mph in the parking lot if you are not comfortable, and prepared to accept the exponentally increasing consequences should anything go wrong. Which at 120+ are basically, death. Thomas- if you'd ever been to the track with a well run group, you will know it is THE safest group of drivers to run with, peroid. I am amazed at how hard it is to hit somebody else on the track. You do take your life into your hands, but you do that every morning when you step off your front porch. On the track you have - at least minimally focused drivers (cell phones don't work through helmets!) and NO idoit soccer moms halfway on the road, deer jumping across your path, etc. Always remenber, you can die just as easially in a Toyota in rush hour traffic, as in a Ferrari having the time of your life. Might as well have some fun. Best! Ben. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 864 Registered: 1-2003 |
Damn, the autocross sounds fun! I need to find one soon in the Modesto-Stockton-Sacramento area. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 160 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now that i think about it, i can't imagine Ferrar NA *not* supplying Z tires from day one on the TR, as Z tires have been around since before the TR, and with the TR originally billed as being 180+ mph, that's not sumpin' Ferrari would scrimp on... Am thinkin' the doc had a second set of tires, got some 'V's (save a buck, lose a wife?)... Damn, now i'm GONNA have to dig up that Autoweek, i gots to knoweded on this one...i remember being quite interested in the story, got a fair amount of press at the time(TV, other car mags, etc.) | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 159 Registered: 11-2002 |
James, as I recall(and it *has* been a while), there were actually Z rates tires available for the TR, but the doc didn't have 'em on. Don't remember for sure if Ferrari NA was supplying them on this guy's car(for some reason, am thinking his TR was a 1987/8 car), but they damned sure starting supplying Z tires after this incident. Typical U.S. approach, instead of owning up to his screwup, he sued Ferrari over the tires, and I think he may have sued somebody with Silverstate race, too, but don't exactly recall. Autoweek had an extensive writeup on this situation at the time. Coincidentally, I'm in the process(big job) of cleaning up/reorging my garage area, where I have a bunch of 1980s/90s car mags stored, am gonna try to sort all of this stuff out over the next week or two...i'll keep my eye out for that Autoweek and report back w/details(i remember saving it, is now just a matter of FINDING it ) | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 202 Registered: 3-2003 |
Peter, You should check with the local Porsche Club of America chapter and also the BMW Club of America. Both of them run autocrosses. I think Porsche does a bit better job of this in my area in that they have a novice session a couple of times a year during which you get some great instruction from experienced people. This is a great way to get started. On the subject of track events, these are great too, FCA events include novice groups and classroom instruction and there is supposed to be no passing. Invariably there is some passing but its done on the straight aways. In fact there is usually more passing done in a novice session than you will see in an F1 race - but its controlled. Driving events are IMO the best events. You should come away from any of these events with some new skills and a new found appreciation for your 308. Enjoy. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 584 Registered: 5-2002 |
Peter, Yes you need a helmet to play. They allow motorcycle helmets because the speeds are low. Every one I have ever been to had loaners available if you don�t have one. On the scratches, I�ve never gotten one, but I guess in theory you could. The cones are pretty soft plastic, all�s I�ve ever gotten are scuffs that polished off, they are cone material on the car, not paint off the car. The point really is not to hit the cones, they add 1 second to your time for every cone you knock out of place and the winner is usually not more than a couple tenths of a second in front, so hit just 1 cone and you lose. You usually get at least 3 runs though the course and often more like 5, then at the end if there is still light, the club raises money with fun runs, they charge $1 per run to let you run through the course. I use the fun runs to play with tire pressure, shock and spring adjustments and such. If you�re worried about the ferrari, take your daily driver the first time. They will have a class for it and you will have a good time, then go to the next one with the ferrari and have a better time. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 654 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thomas: re your statement: "I might take my car on the track one day, but hammering the tyres and brakes in close proximity to others on the limit is a pleasure I'll enjoy only very rarely." Not all track events allow wheel-to-wheel driving. When I host a track event at TGPR, we only allow 5 cars on the track at a time, spaced out, and passing only on the front straight with permission/cognizance of the one being passed. I refer you to my message with link earlier in this thread. And as Mark mentioned, there are also SCCA events where you're not driving next to other cars. These types of events in a controlled environment are much safer than driving similarly on the road. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1785 Registered: 10-2002 |
V.Z. I agree totally. Re the TR/Silverstate incident. I think I read that the tires were speed rated for the TR at the time of mfg. there was no Z rating. I'm not exactly sure what was determined. Anyone? | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 157 Registered: 11-2002 |
the only correct answer for this question is: For whatever speed you're willing to accept the consequences. Actually, it's probably a testament to the design/construction of Fcars that you don't hear crash/death stories, such as 20Jun more often. HOWEVER, these kind of events should function as a reminder that it doesn't always "happen to the other guy". I remember when i got my first Fcar(308GTB), it took me a while to work up to 95+ mph, in a comfortable mode. Later, 120-140 was ok on good straight(U.S.) roads, WITH NO TRAFFIC ISSUES. If all you wanna do is blow it out a bit with a quick run up to 1xx mph, chances are your car would probably be fine. Consistent high speeds are another matter, as the machinery really must be in tip top shape for sustained high speed driving(not to mention roads, weather, traffic, etc.). Have fun, don't to anything tooo stupid(how to define 'stupid'? Well...ask me if you don't make it back). If you've been around a while, you may remember the story of the Silverstate race(closed road race in Nevada), several yrs ago, where some doctor(as if being a doctor makes anyone smarter than the rest of the population), ran a TR on 'V' rated tires, vs. the 'Z' tires that were supposed to be on the car. Well, he made it back, but his car and the passenger(his wife) didn't. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 857 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mark..Thanks for that info. That sounds fun while being a good learning experience. The first thing that comes to mind is hitting the cones that are on the course that may cause a few good scratches on the side of the car. Is this a problem at these events and does one need to wear a helmet at them? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 583 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thomas, I should have looked to see where you lived instead of assuming we were talking about US roads, I�m sorry. You are right, in Europe there are roads, and more importantly a culture that that let you drive safely at much higher speeds than can be done in the states. Again, sorry. I got the car up to 155 if I recall on the dyno run....I think that is the fastest I�ve ever been in a parking lot | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 582 Registered: 5-2002 |
Peter, An autocross is an SCCA solo 2 event. They are run in large parking lots. A course is laaid out using a lot of cones and you are timed through the course, the best time wins. They have a class for anything from formula cars (A modified), my supercharged 308 with race prep'd suspension and slicks(E modified), a stock 308 (A stock), to pick up trucks (I don't know this one). You'll learn an awful lot about driving your car, there's nothing to hit, and no tickets to worry about. I really enjoy it, although I don't get out as often as I would like. Here's a link to the different regions, I'm sure you can find something within 1-2 hour drive. My wife actually likes the ones run at a mall, any mall... http://www.wprince.com/REGIONLINKS.HTML | ||
| thomas daniels (Castex)
New member Username: Castex Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2003 |
I appreciate your concerns, Mark. There is, of course, a big cultural factor at work here - attitudes in Europe have traditionally lagged behind the 'US-PC' mould (no offence intended). Also worth considering is the speed differential between you and the average motorist - in the US people seem to adhere to some fairly low speed limits, while in France the flow is generally a lot faster. Having said this, I'm not in the slightest bit interested in screaming past other traffic. I'll floor it on the autoroute only when there's visibly nothing around. No risk is caused to anyone but myself and my wife, if she's up for it With due care and attention, no harm need be caused. ps. Nice video - there's another way of doing it safely! | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 854 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mark..You mentioned an Autocross. What is the difference between that and 'going to the track'? Are these large parking lot events? Please explain...that sounds like fun. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 581 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thomas, driving like that on a public road is a good way to die, or worse, kill someone else. The only thing I can think of to make it worse is if you have a few drinks before you head out...oh wait, you do it at 2 am when the other irresponsable people who have been drinking are on there way home..... If you want to drive fast, go to a track. You don't need to go for a wheel to wheel race, go to a club track event, there's no passing and plenty of room between the cars. If you get like to feel Gs, go to an autocross and have all the Gs your car can deliver, again with no chance of a collision. It's only like $20...It's a small price to pay to play and live... | ||
| thomas daniels (Castex)
New member Username: Castex Post Number: 1 Registered: 6-2003 |
Hi everyone, The road is the place to play. I might take my car on the track one day, but hammering the tyres and brakes in close proximity to others on the limit is a pleasure I'll enjoy only very rarely. Until then I know I'm safer going as fast as a straight allows at 2am - and there are some long ones hereabouts - as most people are doing 90 in the outside lane procession at midday. It's not particularly irresponsible IMO, it's fun, it's what your car is for. Choose your time and location wisely, and make sure you pump the tyres up a little. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2664 Registered: 2-2001 |
The road is not the place to play. Too many Grandmas & oblivious Soccer Moms. + The Cops are no nonsense these days. Best bet is too take it to the track. Of course if you are way out in the boonies then thats a different story Now supposing you found a straight long enough you could see maybe 145 or so in a 308QV, dont know about a 77 but I'd check everything very well before doing that in a 26 year old car | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 199 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jim and Philip have posted some especially good advice. The condition of the car's essential systems is critical. Steering and suspension points, brake system, and tires are most important. The overall security of everything else that hangs or is mounted to the car comes next, followed by the condition of the drivetrain. After you're sure their in top condition, have them checked by a tech with race prep experience. Where you drive it matters too. Once you do a track event you start to appreciate how important it is to know the road you are approaching (not where it goes, but who is on it, what direction are they facing, are there any obstructions on the surface - rocks, sand, animals, etc.). I find it safer to be on the track than on the road. In fact, after a couple of track events I found that I looked down on any attempt to challenge me on the road. In other words, I didn't respond to idiots who wanted to weave through traffic or race to the next whatever when they pulled up next to me with their invitation. Before the track events, I would have taken the challenge. If you're asking how fast your car can go, its probably because you intend to find out. That's a great thing to do, but you should be in as much control of the situation as you can. So have fun - your car was meant to be comfortable at 120mph. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 651 Registered: 8-2002 |
Peter: Depending on the track, it can actually be safer to find your cars limit there than on the road. For example, at "little Talladega" (not the big oval, but the roadcourse) we have had a Ferraris miss a turn at least once every day I've rented the track over the last 10 years, and we've NEVER had a car damaged (other than a cracked spoiler once) or somebody hurt during one of those "excursions". To get an idea of why, check out www.TradeTutor.com/tgpr/ Be sure to also read the "stories" (articles) from links near the bottom of the page. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 843 Registered: 1-2003 |
Phillip...I agree with your post (and appreciate all the others). I too like the feel of the way my 308 handles on sharp turns (and the faces of those with me...Some who�s face is in a bag or their purse!). I usually spend the time doing the speed limit, but in making fast 90 degree turns, its makes all that I have spent on the car worth it. In regard to tracking the car, I may not have the cahonee's for it just because 'things happen'. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 295 Registered: 7-2002 |
>>The real fun for me isn't really top speed driving, but pulling G's around curves and understanding where the car's handling limits are.<< Mike I couldn't have put it better. There are much quicker cars. The trick for me is getting the best from the chassis within my abilities. I was talking to the head of service at my local dealer recently about the 288. He indicated it would spin the wheels at 100 mph on the tire technology of the day. Personally, I don't think I am ready for this at the track yet. I need a couple of years more of experience. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 647 Registered: 8-2002 |
My 308QV certainly drives very well at over 100 MPH, and at 120 it just sucks down firmly to the road and feels as firm as it does at 80. That's generally where I'm comfortable as a top speed, but that's more personal preference than a limitation of the car. I've gotten my car up to 145+mph more than once, and the car wasn't really breathing heavy but I was and had to slow down. The world goes by very fast at that speed, and if something DOES go wrong, it is going to be nasty. The real fun for me isn't really top speed driving, but pulling G's around curves and understanding where the car's handling limits are. | ||
| James (Jim_red308)
Junior Member Username: Jim_red308 Post Number: 59 Registered: 3-2001 |
As fast as you don't get caught. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 578 Registered: 5-2002 |
I agree completely with Philip. If your car is well maintained AND you drive within your ability, you can have a great time at the track. A 308 is a great car and there are no parts that will fail as a result of driving it fast. The stock shocks and springs are pretty soft and personally, I was never comfortable at much over 100 in my car. There just wasn't enough feel for me to have any idea what the car was doing or going to do). With the new shocks/springs/tires it feels pretty well behaved, although still a little soft up near redline (150?). It is never safe to drive at 120 on a public road, maybe out in the desert, but even then, you just never know. I have to admit I�ve done it, but it�s really, really stupid. I�ve gotten a little funny as I�ve grown up. I think that safety rules at races are a good idea. Racing, you probably will crash, it�s just a question of when. The rules make sure you have a reasonable chance of surviving when it happens. At a track day event, the focus is on preventing accidents because if you crash, there is a good chance you will be seriously hurt. Most events put an instructor with you until you can convince them you know what you�re doing. There is also no passing unless you�re waive by and often stop watches are not really allowed. It is not racing and they do everything they can to make that clear to everyone. You are there to have a good time and go home safely. I really like to race, but I don�t really want to race prep my car and I really don�t want to have to buy another one after I total it, so I autocross. I get to throw it around (and occasionally spin it around) and drive at 100% of my ability. They design the courses to keep the civics under 55, but the ferrari often breaks 70 or 75. It�s still within the speed range that a crash will probably not inflict serious injury, but I can guarantee your heart will skip a few beats at 75 in a parking lot�..it seems very fast because there is a lot happening very quickly. I�ve seen a lot of guy post thing like �I�m not taking my car anywhere a civic can beat me� or �take it to a real track like it�s meant for�. The true is, your first timeout, almost everyone will be faster than you. High cornering speed and good lines are more important than hp. You�ll also quickly find out how important a good set of tires is. It�s a lot of fun, you can drive as hard as you please, and your not going to kill yourself or anyone else. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 294 Registered: 7-2002 |
One more comment. I don't take a chance on a component if it appears "iffy". Last Thursday evening, before the track day at Blackhawk, the car was leaking small amount of brake fluid (rear caliper seal gone). Result = no run. Take it apart. Fix it. Not worth leaving stuff to chance. There is always stuff you can't control. And occasionally they'll be a very high price to pay for enjoying these cars as they were designed to be used. Obviously the important thing is to control as many of the variables (car condition etc) as you can and drive within your limits. Learn the car and the track and gradually build up speed with experience. | ||
| Philip Airey (Pma1010)
Member Username: Pma1010 Post Number: 293 Registered: 7-2002 |
I have my 77 308 at the track about 10x per year. Runs like a champ. But to the points made, I am religious about checking it over - tires (Z-rated) checked every event, wheels torqued every run, brakes (race pads, ducting), rotors (new), fluid (every event or every other event) etc. Coming into turns 1, 5 and 12 at Road America hot (120 plus) means you have to nail the brakes, hard. Over time I've got more conservative on the road - fewer chances etc. Having said that, straight stretch, little chance of interference from the boys in blue or anyone else, yup, open her up. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1024 Registered: 5-2001 |
PeterS The 308 was designed to go at 120+ with no problem. The emphasis is on everything in good condition (as you pointed out). I had my previous 78 308 GTS up past 100 many, many times and a few times past 120 (once up to 125) and the car is solid and stable at speed. The early 76-77 308's were reported in period articles to do 150 and the later 78-79 cars to do 140. This is for the USA models. I take my current 328 up past 100 regularly, but I stay well within my limits which means doing this only on long straight stretches of interstate... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1768 Registered: 10-2002 |
Peter When cars reach a certin age everything is a possible source of worry. Brake lines, nuts bolts, seals, suspension. I wouldn't drive an older car at speed unless I believed it had been very carefully looked over. Older race cars, which often don't have any crosion protection at all are even more dangerous. I dissemble and inspect my race cars every winter. That said these cars were made to run and if they've been maintained they can move along quite well. They can't however contravene the laws of Physics. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 830 Registered: 1-2003 |
Chaz - Mark...To define my question, what are the first parts to 'go'? Drive axels? Gearbox? The car is stock, no roll cage, etc. Again, I will never drive at these speeds, but I am more interested to understand the general limits of the production cars. | ||
| chaz richards (Chaa)
New member Username: Chaa Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2003 |
At 150 in my 328 gts it does not feel as sure footed as my 90s 300zx,i put this down to the high tyre wall,i am due to get my 18s with 35 side profiles and a 255 width any day now so this might help getrid of that vaigh feeling.sorry for any spelling mistakes if any one gives a dam.C | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 577 Registered: 5-2002 |
What straight strech of road, is it a closed course? Have you installed a roll bar? Are you wearing a 5 point harness and helmet? Are your tires rated for that speed? A stock automobile is design to be pretty safe at 55-65 mph, if you leave the road and hit a tree you have a good chance of surviving. At 120 an impact would be 3.4 times worse than at 65, you have very little chance of surviving in a stock automobile. So what do you mean by safe? If nothing goes wrong, and it probably won't, you will be perfectly safe. If a tire blows, or a dear runs out, or for any other reason the car leaves the road, you will not be in any way safe. | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5411 Registered: 8-2002 |
Light of yesterdays events. I do not think it's wise. M | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 826 Registered: 1-2003 |
Not that I want to drive at 150 MPH (and probably never will), but with everything in good working order on my '77 308, i.e.: sound engine and gearbox, good tires, brakes and suspension, should one feel safe in driving the car at 120+ on a straight stretch of road? |