| Author |
Message |
PeterS (Peters)
Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 932
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 9:10 pm: | |
One thing I find is the outstanding people here on FChat that will contribute their time, posts and money to someone they never met. Raising money for a magazine tribute, other offers, etc., now THIS is a forum community of people with a high degree of class. |
Robert McNair (Rrm)
Member
Username: Rrm
Post Number: 493
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 5:38 pm: | |
I haven't had a chance to log on to Fchat for the last couple of days and I was very sad to hear the news. My thoughts and prayers go out to the families and Jens and Amar I hope you are at peace. God bless. |
J R K (Kenyon)
Member
Username: Kenyon
Post Number: 426
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 3:53 am: | |
This a tragic event and I am really lost for words.We must learn from this event.
Can we learn some thing positive from it ??? |
Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member
Username: Artherd
Post Number: 483
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 3:26 am: | |
I would like to know. I would like the events to come to light as soon as possible, so that others with 360s can maybe learn something, or, god forbid, we can discover something that went mechanically wrong and look out for it. It could save somebody's life.
I am sad and humbled by their deaths, hearing the news brought tears welling up in my eyes, even typing this I have a lump in my throught.
I never even conversed with Jens or Amar, but I read many of their posts and I can tell they were true enthusiest. I was looking forward to hearing about their track day...
The Hemmingway quote has never been more appropriate.
Frankly, I think I am so shaken because it could have been any one of us. I have to say though, and I say this with all due respect, when my time comes, I can think of worse ways than driving my dream car on a track. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 165
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 4:41 pm: | |
It has come to my attention that the driver had some degree of track training. Allow me to apologise for any indication that hinted that he was untrained. Thankfully some of the details of this event are coming to light. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 3183
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 11:26 am: | |
When its your time its your time i guess.
stuff like this happens-
http://forum.rallyfreak.com/zerothread?id=2313
it just shows that you never know what can happen. I didnt know either of the two guys but its still sad, especially since from what i understand they were pretty young. |
Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi12
Post Number: 1352
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:50 am: | |
You guys made some great points. Me too I was wondering, why on Earth did I get that emotional? Then I was thinking, what if somebody would have posted on Friday, that e.g. Jens died because he fell down a stair. That would have been sad and a loss too, but I'm quite sure, I wouldn't have reacted as strongly as I did and still do. Bad things happen in life all the time and we move on.
So I figured it had to do with the way they died or more precise what they were doing that caused their deaths. THAT is where the connection comes in.
I cried on Feb 1 when Columbia was lost. I care deeply about manned space flight and that was a hellish time for me as well. But I didn't loose a tear when Apollo astronaut/hero Conrad died on a motorcycle (his passion). That was 'just' a bad thing.
So I guess it hits us the most, when we have that interest/connection/bond in what these people were doing.
PS: The other very sad part of this is the simple fact, that they're gone. We will all eventually get over our shock and emotions. But we will never chat with them again on line. That is second hard pill to swallow and leave an emptieness eternally. |
Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member
Username: Bryanp
Post Number: 126
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 10:26 am: | |
you nailed it DGS! - I get the sense that a lot of us who never met Jens and Amar are similarly bewildered by our emotions. I sat at my computer at work on Friday with tears streaming down my face, wondering why I was reacting this way for two guys I had only swapped emails w/ a few times. " . . . still accelerating at the end of the straight" made me do it again, dammit.
We are brothers in a kinship that people outside it cannot fathom.
(that includes you, Nika, and our other racerladies)
I eagerly await the opportunity to contribute to a Forza tribute and/or a scholarship fund, whichever is deemed to be the most appropriate for the families and our community.
|
Scotty (Pzerowaster)
Junior Member
Username: Pzerowaster
Post Number: 94
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 9:17 am: | |
Well put DGS. I myself am not only shocked and profoundly upset over this loss, but I am also bewildered over how deeply it has effected me. You did a fine job of putting it into perspective.
Godspeed gentlemen. |
Ton Visser (Lion315)
Member
Username: Lion315
Post Number: 638
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 7:46 am: | |
Jeffrey,
I agree! No hard feelings at all. These questions are in all our minds. It's just that the pain is still very much present.
Ton |
David Mcguire (Matkat)
New member
Username: Matkat
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 6:05 am: | |
DGS,it makes perfect sense to me. |
DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 86
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 7:57 pm: | |
I was not personally acquainted with either of them, although, like most of us, I've been in discussions with Jens. Perhaps that's why I'm not ready to analyze the accident, as I am still struggling to analyze why I'm feeling this loss.
I've had some experience pushing a car to (and sometimes beyond) its limits (although only in local events). In this age of oversized commuter boxes, those of us who still recall that "drive" was once (and can still be) a transitive verb are a shrinking community. A loss from that community is a loss among brothers of a sort.
I work every day with people who see cars as just an ordinary appliance, and who view a Ferrari as just an "expensive car". Somehow I feel more kindred with two men I've never personally met, who share the joys of bending the laws of dynamics to our will, than with those I see daily, but with whom I cannot in this vein connect.
Does that make any sense? |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 129
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 6:38 pm: | |
DGS.. no prob. I am certain that if I had known these men I would also be in mouring. |
PeterS (Peters)
Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 842
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 6:26 pm: | |
DGS..That was an extremely commendable post reply. Its members like you that make this forum a good one that garners great respect. |
DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 85
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 6:23 pm: | |
Jeffery, Concorde, my apologies. Knee-jerk reaction.
The press was constantly doing "instant analysis" of airline accidents before any data was in. I didn't want to see us making the same mistake -- drawing conclusions from incomplete data.
But this is a different environment.
I see your point, Concorde. Analysis threads occur when the participants are ready, even if some of us aren't.
Just make sure we pay attention to the difference between analysis and pure speculation.
|
PeterS (Peters)
Member
Username: Peters
Post Number: 841
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
I may lean towards Jeffrey's side on this particular post. He asked a question that is a fair one on a separate thread, which shows some class. I would have taken an extremely dim view if he made the same post on the 'Memoriam' thread, for that would have been of extremely poor taste. Between the lines, he apologized if anyone thought he lacked respect when he stated 'I hope that is understandable. I feel for their families.' He wants to know what most of us want to know, and that is how to be safe behind a wheel of a car. As unfortunate as any event is that causes great injury or death to the participants, this is how we learn and technology advances for its betterment. Though the time of his post may be sensitive to some members, I don't feel we should lambaste him for his post. |
ken rentiers (Rentiers)
Junior Member
Username: Rentiers
Post Number: 197
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 6:20 pm: | |
This is for Jen and Amar, from those of us on the Ferrarilist who share the grief of those on this board.
There are only three sports: bullfighting, motor racing, and mountaineering; all the rest are merely games.
-Earnest Hemingway
Security is mostly a superstition. It does not exist in nature, nor do the children of men as a whole experience it. Avoiding danger is no safer in the long run than outright exposure. Life is either a daring adventure or nothing.
-Helen Keller
People living deeply have no fear of death.
-Anais Nin
Someone once asked Sam Posey what was the fastest he had ever driven. He replied that it was around 235mph on the Mulsanne straight at Le Mans (formerly the longest straight in motorsports) driving a Porsche 917. Posey said that he really wasn't sure exactly how fast the car was - it was still accelerating at the end of the straight!
Jen and Amar lived. Perhaps they are out there somewhere even now, still accelerating at the end of the straight....
God Bless Jen and Amar. God Bless us all, every one.
The Ferrarilist |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 125
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 5:46 pm: | |
Thanks mike... I started this thread for that reason. I prefer to discuss the reasons for the accident... was it a failure of the machine or a diver that was in over their head? Could some form of safety equipiment onboard or on track have saved them? Without discourse nothing changes. |
mike 308 (Concorde)
Junior Member
Username: Concorde
Post Number: 230
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 5:39 pm: | |
That's one of the things this board is all about... differing opinions, and accepting them. Everyone reacts to things differently, and there is no absolute right or wrong here.
Out of respect, the "analysts" should probably stay out of the "shock and mourning" threads, but likewise the "mourners" shouldn't negate others' interest and discussion in the non-personal aspects for those who weren't on a personal basis with Jens or Amar. |
Mark Pautz (Malfark)
Member
Username: Malfark
Post Number: 301
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 5:31 pm: | |
I agree Ton. MARK |
Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 2080
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 4:56 pm: | |
THANK YOU TON.......
BRUCE |
Ton Visser (Lion315)
Member
Username: Lion315
Post Number: 636
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
I was there when it happened. Andreas is right. But Bruce is even more right! This is not the time for analysis. That can wait.
Ton |
DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 84
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 4:00 pm: | |
"... the investigation started right away ..."
I used to work for the Federal Aviation Administration. When an airliner falls out of the sky, the part of the investigation that starts "right away" is preservation of relevant data for later analysis.
We're not preserving data here, and it's too soon for us to be sure we know all the circumstances. Analysis can wait a bit, IMO.
|
Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member
Username: Merlyn
Post Number: 75
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 3:39 pm: | |
In the time I have been racing I have seen several friends killed on the track. It is a hard thing to deal with. They were brothers sharing a passion, and while I mourned their passing, I always wanted to find out what caused the accident so that I might be able to do something to insure it not happening again. Sometimes it was a mechanical failure, sometimes an error in judgment on someone's part. I always wanted to know.
For some talking about it helps, for others a time of solitude is what works best. I think it is counterproductive to lash out at another because they don't handle grief like you do.
We are all different in how we handle the loss of a friend. Let everyone handle it the way that works for them. |
Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member
Username: Mcharness
Post Number: 646
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 3:16 pm: | |
"Brother Bruce"... though I and others are sad to hear about the tragedy, many of us here, as Jeffrey said, did not know the individuals well. We are not "all in shock" or need healing, though we respect those who may be, and would understand why they might not want to participate in discussion.
But meanwhile, technical questions so that we can learn from the handling mistake are quite valid and useful. Even Ferraris have handling limits, and education can certainly help us manage the risks of driving these or any other sports cars. I've gone past the limits of my own Ferrari. That happened once early in my ownership of it on a back road, and I learned a lot from that experience, thankfully with only minor damage to my car, but I could have easily been hurt. Since then, I am much more careful and mindful of the car's limits and the environment in which I drive, including when I track the car.
We can learn from the mistakes of others, and not have to make them ourselves. When NASCAR driver Dale Ernhart died in an accident at Daytona, the investigation started right away so that other drivers could benefit from understanding what went wrong.
|
Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member
Username: Merlyn
Post Number: 74
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 3:12 pm: | |
FYI, "Flugplatz" or Flying place refers to the fact that gliders used to be launched from a nearby hill, not that cars get airborne there.
Pflanzgarten is the place where most of the spectacular airborne pictures have been taken |
Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi12
Post Number: 1350
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 3:09 pm: | |
Based on the news it happened however past the Flugplatz at the Schwedenkreuz (Swedish cross). Still dangerously fast. No narrow turns, rather blazingly fast left and right handers. As the whole Ring is, no place for any kinds of mistakes. No run off areas, just armco and hills. |
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer
Post Number: 625
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 3:04 pm: | |
I know nothing of the accident, nor did I know the unfortunate victims though I feel terrible about this (as anyone who does track events naturally would). The section of track you are referring to is called Flugplatz.... roughly means airfield or such. I believe the crown in the road there where F1 cars in the late 1960's would leap 12+ inchs into the air was cut down to make it less dangerous in the 1970s. |
Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 2078
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 2:58 pm: | |
ANYBODY I CONSIDER THAT I TOLD TO ON F-CHAT IS A "F- CHAT BROTHER" BESIDES RACER CURIOSITY CAN WAIT. LET IT HEAL FOR A WHILE......
BROTHER BRUCE |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 122
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 2:50 pm: | |
I understand. It is not morbid curiosity but more a racers question. I did not know either of the men nor do I consider them "brothers" so I am , perhaps, a little distant from it all. I am more interested in the circumstances and possible causes then feeling any sense of loss. I hope that is understandable. I feel for their families. |
Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 2077
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 2:42 pm: | |
MR WOLFE
AT THIS TIME OF SORROW, I DONT THINK ANYONE WANTS TO VERIFY ANYTHING RIGHT NOW, I THINK WE ARE ALL IN SHOCK AND ARE MOURNING THE DEATH OF 2 OF OUR FERRARI CHAT BROTHERS..I DONT THINK ITS THE RIGHT TIME YET...
MY 2 CENTS |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 121
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 2:32 pm: | |
From what I have been able to find out it happened at the turn right after the very dangerous part of the track that is called the "flying place". It is called this due to the layout of the track which can cause a car to become airborne for a few seconds. At the very least it would have it's suspension unloaded and this could lead to some very tricky handling. Can anyone verify that this was the location? |