| Author |
Message |
Greg (Greg512tr)
Junior Member
Username: Greg512tr
Post Number: 166
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 04, 2003 - 12:32 pm: | |
Rob-Good choice on choosing this thread as post of the month. It was my choice as well. Informative, unique, and some very interesting opinions. Plus I got a free safety inspection on my car from JRV! |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 585
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 10:46 pm: | |
Good point about over polishing ... this is probably the cause of the over restored problem.
But to be fair I think this comes from owning an important car for too long and one keeps looking for improvements ... and possibly out of boredom they start with the polishing ... what they should be doing is driving them instead or selling them and buying a car that they actually enjoy to drive.
Pete |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 253
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 2:39 pm: | |
My god james... she is awesome. IT is so hard to imagine the minds that designed her. Did you ever do a count of how many tubes are in that frame? Just imagine the welding that went into that. |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1840
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:49 am: | |
Bryan
There is only one safe thing to do with vintage fuel tanks. See my first photo.
Over painting and polishing is a big problem as well. The rear suspension in the next photo is completely rebuilt and safe. Bearings, race grease, Ferrari recast alum uprights,etc. I have taken great care with the finish so that it still retains the proper period look.
Welds? The original ones are very primative. For safety we had to test EVERY one. Note how we perserved the character and as many of the welds and tubes.
Snap shot? Check out the Vintage threads re. color, nose, and ducting. These cars were modified every day.
Best
Jim
 |
Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member
Username: Allyn
Post Number: 1019
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:48 am: | |
<Any thoughts, JRV, on proper procedure for dealing with a 40-year-old gas tank?
If you want to be original, I'd say have an exact replica fabricated. One area NOT to mess with is fuel system components. My rusty tanks will be replaced with aluminum so I won't have to be doing this again in 20 years but as I said below, I'm not after a concourse look in things of this nature. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1825
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:21 am: | |
>>The old racing tanks tended to leak and the internal baffles effectively prevent the insertion of a modern bladder . . . <<
Bryan,
I think most guys just take out the old tank and set it aside and fit a fuel cell in it's original space when appropriate, although I've seen where the old tank was opened, gutted, fuel cell made to fit inside and put back together .
In most modern vintage racing groups lots of modern safety devices are mandatory to run, and I don't think anyone thinks twice about the fact the cars were modified for safety reasons whether for use or resale..
IMO as mentioned below, (by Taek I believe), there is a BIG difference in museum only cars and the rest of the cars.
If you go to the INDY Museum you expect to see 30 yr old cars with patina that will never see a day of work again, but outside of museums I think people expect to see cars that act like cars, machines you can safely drive down the road. |
Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member
Username: Bryanp
Post Number: 130
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:05 am: | |
great thread!
a few points-
I agree w/ Pete that there is definitely a difference between the race and production cars. The racers were definitely work horses and built as such. I doubt that any serious attention was paid to panel fit and uniform door gaps. A 500 Superfast, on the other hand, was a high end production car so attention, then and now, to panel fit is justified.
To hear Sgr. Scaglietti tell about how his shop would get calls from Ferrari to beat out a new fender in the middle of the night because a racer crunched a fender in practice is good stuff and it is clear that quality control wasn't always at the top of the priority list. We will not be filling or straightening the wavy panels on 0556MD where you can see the rows of half-moon hammer marks from Scaglietti's shop . . .
I guess I would add an item to JRV's list - if the car has been sitting for an appreciable amount of time on its Borranis, the wheels will definitely be out of true. Also, there is a high likelihood that a bunch of those old wires will be cracked - it would be lunacy not to send them to Dayton or whoever to have them rebuilt.
Any thoughts, JRV, on proper procedure for dealing with a 40-year-old gas tank? The old racing tanks tended to leak and the internal baffles effectively prevent the insertion of a modern bladder . . . |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1823
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 9:03 am: | |
>>And while I love the patina of my paint, I think repairing the stress lines and a professioanl respray would not be contrary to preserving the history of this very rare car. >>
That was my point, don't know about the talking heads, but I don't find any appeal in the 'patina' of a door that will no longer close because the hinges are worn out, or the 'patina' of old rotting leaking fuel or coolant hoses..or the 'patina' of rusted out fenders, floorboards and frames.
I suspect that the article writers reffered to by you know who listened to a very small select group of buyers and 'sellers' with agendas that gave those articles their spin.
Now as far as preseveing goes...I still have stored away the original leather that Bridgette Bardot sat on...;-)...and made nice paperwieghts out of the original pistons her cute little foot made go zoom zoom. |
Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member
Username: Allyn
Post Number: 1018
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, June 26, 2003 - 8:35 am: | |
I love this thread! Lots to think about.
I have realized that obviously all cars are not the same. Some are true museum pieces and should be left original as much as they can; they will sit in a room and be looked at.
Some are almost unique (like the P4) that if restored as a driver some concessions need to be made, but Jim is having his done in remarkable original fashion which we all applaud. He has spent much more in restoration even on a relative scale than most of us who own vintage cars can afford, myself included. But a car like a P4 deserves this kind of program.
Then there's the old 'not so special' cars like Tommy Yang's. He also has kept an eye to originality but wants a reliable daily (well almost) driver and has kept the look of the car original but has fabricated many parts that are not. This keeps costs down while keeping the car looking correct.
My point is that there are no rules that apply to all cars as far as what *should* be done. My 1972 Europa TC has no real historical value and does not seem destined to be any kind of sought after collectable, yet my ongoing 'restoration' of it forces me to consider what I want to keep original and what I'm willing to stray on. I have made many minor concessions to driveability while keeping a keen eye to what Colin intened for this car in both looks and performance. I feel like what I've done and intend to do is propor for this car but would be a sacralige on say Jim's P4, such as changing how minor acillary parts such as ignition and exhaust work. But I have a car that I can daily drive and a concourse Europa would be difficult to do that with.
And while I love the patina of my paint, I think repairing the stress lines and a professioanl respray would not be contrary to preserving the history of this very rare car.
|
Chris Coffing (Valence)
Junior Member
Username: Valence
Post Number: 103
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:44 pm: | |
Mr. Glickenhaus, you are a badass. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 578
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 11:21 pm: | |
Jeff,
First and foremost they are cars, and the most important thing is that they drive like they were designed. Everything else comes very much second!
We have enough art sculptures without treating all old cars the same.
Even if I owned a 375MM, I would restore the running gear to full working order, so I could drive it hard and fast. And I would not care if I had to replace the crank, rods, pistons and every single valve, and camshafts ... even the block, if it was faulty. What I would do is keep all the old bits just so I could look at them and prove continuous history.
If you cannot drive them their soul is gone and who cares if they are original or not ... drifting into a corner LIKE Fangio is so much more fun and enlightening than looking at a broken engine and telling everybody that Fangio raced that engine once.
Same with the Mona Lisa. They restore that painting all the time I imagine. And they do not care that the paint is younger than the original paint, they are just ensuring that the painting remains for all to view. If they did not touch it then it would have been lost by now ...
Pete
ps: I would only replace what was absolutely necessary, as the more of the orginal that survives and continues the better ... but the machine must be restored to full working order. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 238
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:58 pm: | |
AS for paperwork.. If a PPI showed flaws that required major work such as bad accident repair i would agree that a full tear down is the answer.. but if it is only lost and PPI shows things okay... just start the trail with you.. and keep it perfect from there |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 237
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:56 pm: | |
Let me add Taek.. This is not my design.. I really like this thinking but it came about through years of judging by the concours experts. I think it is like the Indians... they had one person keep track of history so that it could not be diluted. Good, Bad or indifferent. Once you strip a car and repaint it and adjust every wart, even if you take really good pictures, you dilute what it was. Taek... if you went in and had your face redone and as a result looked perfect( not saying you don't now.. lol) would you still be you? Inside you might feel like you.. but you would behave differently. Bolder, more outgoing at least. Same with a redone car. In the end it becomes more than what it was. Make the engine more stable than it was by using a newer crank and you dilute the reality of what was. Who cares if it ran like a piece of S**t. Making it run like a deer is changing the truth. |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1268
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:53 pm: | |
Well at least we all agree on the importance of provenance in these cars.
Which brings me to another thing I thought of. If there is paperwork missing on a car. Not the racers or real rare cars, but some of the more "mundane" cars. Wouldn't a full restoration be a means to bring the car to the way it was intended?
Cheers |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 236
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:46 pm: | |
Again.. Very good point. I guess we have hit upon the real quandry... Intent of the factory vs what they actually did..LOL. |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1267
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:46 pm: | |
Jeffrey,
Don't you think the history could be preserved by having some great restoration stories?
Look at Jim's P4 being documented right before our eyes! Even if it doesn't come out exactly as it did when it was first created and then redone, and all, we have learned at every step of the way because of the documentation.
I feel exact documentation is more of a history preserver than an as is example. It's also great to see these cars realize their full potential. Imagine if someone was to tell you that the Le Mans Bentleys from today will be driven on the street 40 years from now. You would of course know that it would have to undergo some modifications to do that. By documenting it and realizing the dream, history would be best served. Better than having all these preserved originals sitting in a garage.
Cheers |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 576
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:41 pm: | |
Hmmm, I do not consider many early Ferraris to be production cars ... so it gets really complicated!
But road Ferraris from the 60's on I do ... before then he was making race cars, and thus did not intend to make a beautiful production car (just rip some poor sucker off, probably  )
But when Ferrari starting making real production runs and real road cars surely the goal was to make high class road cars and thus have the fit and finish to match ... ???
As for the Fangio seat and steering wheel ... it is still the same seat and steering wheel if sensibly restored (if they really needed to be restored, only). After all the rest of the car has been maintained since then, so as with all racing cars probably very little is the same as it was on that actual race day. Thus continous history is all I would need to feel smug
Pete |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 234
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:36 pm: | |
AS a side note.. Road and Track,when they reviewed the 308 series, often noted how cheaply the switch gear was. They made the old and tired joke that you bought the engine and got the car for free. This is kinda what we are all saying. A Vintage exotic is not about shiny paint and perfeect fit.. those are ego points. If dents and bad fit were okay for Fangio, Phil HIll, Fons Portago and many others why would we complain. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 233
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:31 pm: | |
PSK.. you raise a question. Lets all agree that some of the early ( some hehehe) Ferraris were lacking in fit and finsh. Now, if we take and adjust the fit and respray them with the correct paint.. but get it applied correctly we have a nice to look at machine. But let's say a person that does not know the history comes to look. They will see our perfect machine and assume that was the quality of the time. Now the other side... We leave the wavy panels and buff the paint but you can still see the crappy paint work.
Now a layman would wonder what all the fuss was about. Until they saw it run and heard that sound.
I agree with many of you. I like a car to be perfect and adjusted many a door and panel. But I really like the new thinking... I will save the truth and the history for the next generations. Sitting in a seat that Fangio sat in and knowing that it is the same wheel and leather and the same view he had is soo much better than fresh leather and paint. |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1265
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:24 pm: | |
Pete,
I think you captured the essense of what I've been trying to say the past couple of posts! Thanks!
I agree entirely with Pete who worded it so much better than me. That's why there are bragging rights for a million dollar D Type. But for a street car? Unless you're a nutcase (and I say this respectfully ) like Jim and drive your GT40 in the snow!
Cheers |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 575
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:19 pm: | |
I think restorations should return the car to how the factory intended to build the car, not to how it was actually built by some lazy, pissed off employee.
Otherwise when you rebuild and engine you would have to ensure that it performed just as badly as when it left the factory ... not blue print it and make it work properly.
With a production car panel fit should be good, because the only reason it was bad is because the fitter was a •••• head (thus if you find a machining balls up by the factory you do not leave it so the engine will fail again do you?), but with a race car like the P4, or 250F Maserati they should be restored (IMO) with some of the knocks and imperfections as they are racing tools and all these marks add character, and the builder did not care as he was more interested in weight and performance not finish.
Pete |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 231
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:18 pm: | |
Agreed taek... the designers have grand ideas and then the welders just kinda make it work LOL. But thats the point. It's not what a car should ahve been or could have been.. it's what it really was. Think about the guy that paid the million for the JAg... do you think he will even consider making it "right"? NO way. He now has Million dollar bragging rights as to how "original" his car is. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 230
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:15 pm: | |
I think we all agree that the P4 is worth any adjustments as a piece of history. If you only allowed one viewing day a year I would stand in line every time. |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1264
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:15 pm: | |
Jeffrey,
I think I've read plenty about the mighty Italian cars. They're my favorite reading materials!
I think you misunderstood my comments. Don't confuse an engineer's intentions with the way the car turned out.
James,
That's awesome! Yeah, magnesium does not have the structural integrity of some of it's stronger cousins. A purpose built machine like yours was not particularly designed with the intentions of being enjoyed 40 years down the road. It was designed with Enzo's fervor to winning in competition! I have a feeling that what you are doing is going to please even the most puritan or car purists out there, mag or alum aside.
Cheers |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1837
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:08 pm: | |
Castings can be problematic. The original P4 uprights are mag. After 36 years of racing and repairs they became too sketchy for me. I've put them aside and replaced them with Alum. ones that Ferrari Spa. cast for me. They also made a spare set so my grandkids will be covered. The same thing with the wheels. The original mags have seen a lot of battles so I had Campanello recast two sets in alum as well. These pieces aren't original but they're cast from the original molds by the Co.'s that made the originals are more importantely, they're safe. |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 228
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 10:06 pm: | |
Taek.. you need to read some of the books about Ferrari, MAserati and Porsche from the old days. They were all Famous for bad workmanship. A true story from the Ferrari factory... During one of the strikes some of the workers placed trash inside the doors. I have witnessed first hand bad door fit and leaking trunks. This is from the factory. I know that if I were to open my door and find a piece of trash from a factory worker I would leave it after taking a few pics. |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1260
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 9:58 pm: | |
Jeffrey,
That's a good point.
A while ago I read some article on Jay Leno's XK120. These cars were built by hand and one of the things Jay liked most about it is that "it showed!" The way the hinge was placed on one side was different from the other. When he restored the car he did ensure a proper fit but made sure the "improperly" place hinge was attached "defectively".
By the way, it was either a door hinge or latch, not sure. But the point is the same.
There are certain things that make a car the way it should be. Nevertheless, originality can only go so far. Poor panel fit, even if that's the way it came out of the factory, (again, in my opinion) should be sorted because although it's a nuance, I'm sure the engineers did not intend to have metal rubbing metal when the doors closed.
Cheers |
Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member
Username: 86mondial32
Post Number: 226
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 9:53 pm: | |
All of the things you mentioned I have agreed with as being within the new thoughts on restoration. As is said below.. the main things that have been talked about are panels and paint, Castings such as suspension pieces, Interiors ( seems that wore leather can actually work for you) and tools and acc. No one says a car should be left in unsafe condition. The auction houses and the concours judges have been expressing the view that it is more important to save the reality of old world workmanship( or the lack of it) than to improve on it. The thinking is that the marks of a panel beater or an uneven pair of quarter panels reflect the Original machine. Any owner can take their car to a over priced shop and get back a perfect but not really restored car. What I talked to a few people about at Scottdale was the thought that this type of restoration has no real investment by the owner.. other than cash. If the movement to "original" takes place then owners will have to be more involved... they would have to decide how well they want their classic to age. To me.. this seems like a great thing. |
"The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member
Username: The_don
Post Number: 5521
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 9:11 pm: | |
JRV,
I did not forget to call you today. I will call in the morning. |
"The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member
Username: The_don
Post Number: 5520
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 9:07 pm: | |
JRV,
You beat me to it.
|
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1834
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 9:05 pm: | |
JRV
Your list is a good one. I'd add wheel bearings,check instruments, and wipers. In short anything you need to operate the car as a car. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 571
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 7:54 pm: | |
Absolutely JRV, all those parts are wearing items and should be replaced to be able to fully enjoy the car.
I get really annoyed when I read a Classic car magazine road test of some old car and they go on about issues, etc. and they are not thinking about the fact that the car has not been maintained or bought up to as new condition.
Note: when I mean as new condition, I mean mechanically, not cosmetically.
A car is just a machine and needs to be constantly maintained. If I only a 250 series Ferrari I would be crack testing just about everything on the suspension/engine/gearbox/diff before I let it rip. What an expensive breakage if something fails.
No car has been maintained perfectly since it was created, and even old Ferraris need massive overhauls to keep them driving like new.
If you just want to look at it, then leave it alone ... but please do not lend it to a magazine to road test!
Thus patina has nothing to do with the mechanics of a car. No point keeping an old steering joint if it is f**ked, throw it away and replace it.
Pete |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 1816
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 7:29 pm: | |
Greg,
Here is the list I compiled for MattL to put a car roadworthy after sitting for 20 yrs. I suspect most of this might apply for your 250 Ferrari also:
The first list is known problems he noted, followed by my reccs., to bring the car current enough to drive long distances if wanted.
< 1. fuel leaks - a lot of them
2. Cam cover gaskets
3. brakes - Master is toast, pads cracked.
4. carb rebuild - leaking and clogged.
5. clutch - ?
6. electrical - mouse ate the rear wiring of the car
>>
Suggested Parts List:
3 carb rebuild kits
Fuel Pump Rebuild Kit
Fuel Filter
Yellow Fuel Lines in 8mm & 10mm
Brake Pads & shoes (58's might have shoes)
Brake Master Cylinder Kit
2 Front Brake Flex Hoses
2 Rear Brake Flex Hoses
Caliper/Wh Cyl Kits
Cam Cover Gskt Set
Oil Filters
Air Filter
Plugs
Plug Wires
Plug Connectors
Points & Condensors
Fan Belt
Wiper Blades
Radiator Cap
Have any knowledge of exhaust system condition?
Drive Shaft Donut?
Clutch?
Fuel Gauge?
Shocks?
Tires?
The above seems like a pretty comprehensive list of needs and possibilities on such an old car based on experience and your description of condition from above.
Regards, JRV |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1824
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 8:36 am: | |
Arlie
You're right about rust. The original GT40 MKI,MII,and MKIII had steel tubs and are very prone to rust. The MK-IV tub is alum, honeycomb composite which was made on the B1 bomber line by Brunswick Aerospace and is much less subject to corrosion. As we speak I'm repairing my Lola tub.
Race cars of that period have virtually no corrosion protection and that is a real problem.
Parts simply dissapear into dust. Thats why mine are always wiped down with oil. I'm not sure wether or not the judges will deduct for that when I bring my MK-IV to Pebble in Aug. Seriously I think the trend is turning and Judges are more in tune with these issues today.
Wayne is of course right about 0846 but as Ferrari needed the car for a few more races that patina was lost forever. |
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