| Author | Message | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1402 Registered: 10-2002 |
There is a video for sale entitled 'In car 956', which shows you some famous tracks for a camera mounted inside a race Porsche driven at high speeds. Nuerburgring is one of the tracks and you hear the driver comment on the insane speeds you can reach there (like 150 mph, well in that particular Porsche). And you see nothing on either side but armco and hills. Yes, the Ring is dangerous. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1841 Registered: 10-2002 |
John If you view the "Video Tribute" which is a lap around this course I think you will see just how crazy driving fast on this track is. There are high curbs, no run off, trees and armco to hit. IMHO this is a track for a 6/10 cruise NOT anything faster. The endurance racers and the Grand Prix guys aggreed after it killed too many of them. I aggree totaly with your post. Best | ||
| David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Member Username: Racerdj Post Number: 307 Registered: 1-2003 |
John, very well written and it also expresses some of my same thoughts. Until you loose control of a car at speed as I did (Feb 1991) at 175 mph in a ZR1 Corvette, you can't appreciate how fast things happen traveling at over 250 feet per second. Luckily I walked away with only a few scratches and learned my lesson. I wanted to show my son who's buying my ZO6 what can happen to a car with world class brakes, suspension and safety items. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 194 Registered: 8-2001 |
Nicely said John. | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
Junior Member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 173 Registered: 11-2002 |
I understand and respect Rob and Helmut's differing positions. I respect Rob's decision to remove the post and at the same time I object to the crucifixion of Helmut for posting the photos. Its very very important for everyone in the Ferrari club community to remember this. It is so important that maybe, at some point, the pictures should be shown. Driving fast in a car can be deadly. Everyone knows this. But the problem is that modern sports cars ( Ferraris in particular) have such high performace levels that they give you the false impresion that you can go fast safely. Modern Ferraris have incredible suspension, brakes, and now even downforce. All of this masks a huge level of potential energy generated at speed. Driving a modern Ferrari with 400hp is not like driving a big block chevy with 400hp. In the chevy you know you're going fast. The suspension, brakes, and wieght tell you that you are going fast, and they remind you that the inertia is great In the Ferrari the car feels "stuck" to the road. To make things even more askew, when your on the track you keep reminding your brain that your monseterous brakes can slow the car quicker that your brain thinks you can. And you keep finding out your brakes ARE amazing and CAN stop your car quicker than you think. This gives you a false sense . . . . . Until something happens. When you loose adhesion and leave the road the ugly laws of physics reveal themselves with deadly consequence. Ever been to an F1 race and see how the cars seem to "speed up" when they leave the road? They appear to speed up because they often do. When the tires loose the adhesion, and the turning and braking forces are gone, and the car literally shoots off the road. I remember several years ago, I emailed to my Ferrari friends some very gruesome photos of a 355 that crashed in South America. Unlike the photos of Jes and Amar's accident you could see what the impact did to the bodies. I sent these photos for a reason. They horrified me (and I have seen many terrible photographs of crash victims). If any of you have seen these photos you will never forget them. They showed in shocking visual detail you what happens when you crash at high speeds in one of these cars. The forces of energy are incredilbe and terrifiying. So, as I said from the begining, we need to remember this. Not only because of friends that were lost but for the friends that may be lost if we forget. So, I understand by Helmut gave us access to these photos. As someone who has organized dozens of Ferrari track events, and does not want to realize one of my worst fears (setting the stage for the death of a friend), I am affected greatly by what happended. As someone who has held the hand of many widows and orphans, who have lost fathers, I can also understand why there is the competeing objective (and at this moment more important objective) to protect family and friends from seeing these photos. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1320 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yes, thank you Ben for contributing. I've perused your site in the past; we appreciate the special effort to lend your voice here. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 193 Registered: 8-2001 |
I just returned after being on a trip, and am just now learning of this horrific tragedy. It just breaks my heart. Both of them were such gentlemen... generous with their time and always ready to share their Ferrari passion. My thoughts and prayers are with them and their families. This sort of tragedy really makes you stop and think about things. Just a couple weeks ago I shared some email correspondence with Jens... and now this. I am shocked and heartbroken. By the way, Rob, my compliments for removing some pics that apparently were previously posted here. I did not see them, nor would I want to. Some things are just WAY more important than others! One of them being LIFE, and respect for others. | ||
| Ben Lovejoy (Ben_lovejoy)
New member Username: Ben_lovejoy Post Number: 4 Registered: 6-2003 |
Thanks, both. I'm not really a poster here (though my dream car is a 355 Spider, so perhaps one day!) - someone pointed me to the thread. I only really dropped in to provide some reassurance that death really must have been instantaneous given the severity of the impact and immediate explosion. Ben | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 327 Registered: 3-2003 |
Awesome website, Ben. Rgds, Faisal. | ||
| Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 80 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ben, Didn't realize you were a poster here. That's a very nice site you have. | ||
| Ben Lovejoy (Ben_lovejoy)
New member Username: Ben_lovejoy Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2003 |
Flugplatz is colloquially translated as 'Flying place', but only because they used to fly gliders there many years ago - nothing to do with cars getting airbourne. Flugplatz itself is the double-apex right-hander leading onto a more-or-less straight which ends at Schwedenkreuz. Schwedenkreuz is the bend where the crash occured. See: http://www.nurburgring.org.uk/satellite_pic.html The Nordschleife is an old circuit which has none of the safety features of modern circuits, let alone plumbed-in fire-fighting circuits. Most bends don't even have gravel-traps, just armco, trees and very long drops. It is essentially a one-way mountain road, and needs to be treated as such. As regards the safety of the car, even quite ordinary cars can be doing 140mph on the approach to Schwedenkreuz. No matter what safety features are installed, most crashes here will be bad ones. It is in my view the most dangerous bend on the circuit due to the combination of high approach speed, deceptiveness of the bend (it looks quite mild at first view but then tightens dramatically) and trickiness of the correct line (in particular, there is a bump that can easily cause the back of the car to be lost). I can't count how many nasty crashes I've seen there. This is not a criticism of the Ring: it is a historic circuit which is now a public road, and it would be quite wrong to expect it to provide the safety of a modern race-track. It is an extremely dangerous place, and nobody should go there without being fully aware of that fact. Although I don't think anything would have made this particular crash surviveable, I strongly recommend that everyone wear a helmet - and if you are doing anything more than a one-off visit at a tourist pace, have rollbars or a rollcage installed. Ben | ||
| Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 79 Registered: 8-2002 |
Re. the Nordschleife, a picture lap with commentary can be found here http://www.nurburgring.org.uk/photolap.html It was done on a bike, but gives a very good idea of the track. The Schwedenkreuz is found about a third of the way into the lap. Personally I thought the scariest turn on the whole course is Aremberg which is a downhill left leading onto a downhill fast section that goes under a bridge with concrete abutments very close to the track. Aremberg immediately follows Schwedenkreuz. I was fortunate enough to have twice attended BMW's three day driving schools at the Nordschleife, and have driven also it on a pay per lap basis. | ||
| Jack Habits (Ferraristuff)
Member Username: Ferraristuff Post Number: 784 Registered: 4-2003 |
Faisal, I wasn't there and I didn't see the photos but I have been reading up on the accident a little. 1) What I understand is that the car flipped over multiple times. Hardly any car (and even the roll hoops of some racing cars) are not made to resist that. 2) What I understand is that the car hit a curb, was thrown out of course, hit a tire barrier and then flipped over multiple times and burst into flames right after that. 3) I have no real good information on that. 4) I fear that would indeed be too expensive. The track is some 13 miles longs... Jack | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 320 Registered: 3-2003 |
Would those have been magnesium alloys? They're deadly. They burn with such intense heat that they just engulf everything. If you try to extinguish these fires, they spray molten magnesium everywhere, setting even more things on fire. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 198 Registered: 5-2003 |
Faisal... there was a great story in FOrza about a guy that bought and rebuilt an F50. He was able to find one that had burned due to a rim breaking and pieces hitting the side tanks. This led to a complete fire loss. I was amazed at the damage from just that. No impact or crash.. just a broken rim that threw pieces. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 317 Registered: 3-2003 |
David, get him some quality driving instruction on a track. Let him work up to the Z06. Please. Rgds, Faisal. | ||
| David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Member Username: Racerdj Post Number: 304 Registered: 1-2003 |
I sent the link to my son regarding the crash photo's with one purpose in mind- All he thinks about is when he will be able to drive the ZO6 (my car that he is buying) on a track at speed. Things happen at speed and me telling him about consequences does not accomplish my goal. I wanted him to see what kinds of things are possible on a track. If I had been killled in that crash and the photos taken could make an impression on a young person, that would be my last wish to help convince that person that things happen on a track one can not control. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 315 Registered: 3-2003 |
Apologies in advance if people find this talk morbid or inappropriate. I am genuinely concerned. 1. If the car did flip over, is the roof not strong enough to support it? I am sure it is, as this is a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard. But perhaps fitment of a roll-bar is not a bad idea? 2. Did the sliding car then impact something? Could this be eliminated, cushioned, moved, or angled to decrease the severity of impact, and therefore mitigate blunt force trauma, both to the car to keep it from destructing so badly, and to the occupants to reduce chances of bodily injury? 3. The fuel cell -- I am curious if anyone has a cutaway drawing of a 360. Any suggestions on how to improve on - its location - impact resistance - management of deformation - management of spray, spilt fuel? 4. If fire extinguishers are not required, is it too expensive to have a pipe all around the circuit, with nozzles every few hundred yards? Of course, it would have to spray something that could fight oil fires, so not just water. I think they call it a soapy slurry? The pressure would also have to be enough to enable the spray to reach all points between the nozzles. What would be really good is a remote triggering and direction controlling mechanism for the nozzles--all very feasible today. They already monitor the entire track from a central office. - Faisal. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 192 Registered: 5-2003 |
YOu are correct Dave... the "Schwedenkreuz" ( swedish cross) comes right after the "flying place" on the track. Just as you would become airborne. This was confirmed by another poster here that lives near the "ring" He named the crash site and gave some very detailed background on the location | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2055 Registered: 1-2002 |
Jeff, I don't think that Schwedenkreuz was the "flying place" seen in th ephotos. I think they are 2 different locations on the Nordschliefe...for whatever that's worth. Con saluti cordialissimmi | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 190 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ben I heard that also.. that is was called the "flying place" ( think thats the translation) in past years due to cars getting airborne. Thanks for the police info.I will attempt to contact them and see what info they can release as public knowlege. | ||
| Ben Lovejoy (Ben_lovejoy)
New member Username: Ben_lovejoy Post Number: 2 Registered: 6-2003 |
Regarding which police investigated the accident, this will be Adenau Police. The telephone number is: +49 2691 19250 I don't know what, if any, details they will release. For those condemning the driver, I would respectfully suggest that nobody knows at present what happened. It may have been driver error, or it may have been a blow-out, suspension-failure, oil on the track or any one of a hundred things. I have no idea whether or not the story is true, but one version I have heard is that air got underneath the car as it crested the rise just before Schwedenkreuz (the crash site) and flipped from the front of the car to the rear. If that is the case, there is nothing at all that the driver could have done about it. As for the pics, I've seen the pics in the deleted link, and I've also seen others, and I can tell you that they reveal absolutely nothing. All you can tell is that there was once a car there. Ben | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 538 Registered: 2-2001 |
Many years ago while working in the automotive industry a co-workers best friend was killed in his VW Bug on a mouintain road, hit by a truck. We subscribed to CHP magazine at the store, and the next issue had his dead friends mangled body on the front cover, uncensored. This was not how he - or we - wanted to remember his friend. Years later, in the Police acadamy, in the officer survival course, we spent 8 hours just looking at slides of dead officers, one view at the scene and another view at the morgue of each slain officer. As Helmut pointed out in his later post, these kinds of photos CAN be a powerfull learning tool/lesson/warning of cause and affect. I guess its a matter of personal choice, but I don't need to see pics of friends or fellow enthusiasts killed by accidents to know and understand the hazzards of certain life choices. I want to remember people as I knew them whole, not as the forces of nature or violence have left them. I have seen the results of violent accidents and fire on the human body. We don't need to remeber our friends that way. I'm not saying don't post the pics, but am saying be sure viewing them is really what you want to do. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2098 Registered: 4-2002 |
JEFFREY I JUST ASSUME TO LET THIS DISCUSSION BE HALTED BY ME.. YPUR VIEWS WONT CHANGE, MY VIEWS WONT CHANGE..JUST PRAY FOR OUR 2 LOST SOULS AND THEIR FAMILIES.. BRUCE | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 628 Registered: 4-2002 |
Well, I saw these pictures, they are out there. There is nothing really gruesome. There is also nothing to be learned from these particular photos. The car clearly flipped and burned. The fire damage was so extensive there is not much to evaluate. The photos do not show the road, you cannot even tell what direction they were travelling. There is certainly not enough photo evidence or detail to make any evaluation or gain any insite that could be useful. A terrible tradgedy, my heart goes out to the families. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2003 |
Bruce.. no offense taken and none intended. While I feel for the families I did not know these men. My interest is in what can be learned from this. Soneone here said that nothing can be learned from the photos... I must disagree. Every police department in the world uses crash site photos to help reconstruct what went wrong. Right after 911 I watched video after video of events. I am sure that was hard on each family involved. Tapes of voice messages from people in the towers or on the planes were played over and over. For some it is too painful to think about.. but for others it is a a puzzle. | ||
| Terry L (Terrykarr)
Junior Member Username: Terrykarr Post Number: 168 Registered: 12-2002 |
If you don't want to see them.....don't look at them. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 676 Registered: 4-2002 |
Name calling is never a positive for any situation. All it does is exacerbate any situation or disagreement. As for my personal opinion, posting the pictures could save someone else's life. I believe it was done with good intensions. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 4929 Registered: 5-2001 |
Andrew, Ton, Bart, Wolfgang, you all have been touched very deep by this accident. My feelings are with you as much as with the family. I talked to Wolfgang the day when we still did not know. He was truely shocked and in disbelieve. So was I and I just had a few conversations with Jens. Crash pictures do not do much to see "what happened". They will however remind us what can happen. Neither who is deeply emotionally affected should be put in a position where he/she has to see these photos. That said, I thought is what very thoughtfull that Helmut did not post the pictures but a link. He even wrote: "For those who want to see the pictures...." Reacting with name calling is not the apropriate response in my opinion but under the circumstances understandable coming from such close friends of the two. Helmut please see there point as well and lets all let it rest here. There will be a time to discuss this further, not now. My thoughts are with you all. | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2097 Registered: 4-2002 |
I DONT UNDERSTAND JEFFREY AS MYSELF, BEING AN EDUCATED HUMAN BEING, WOULD YOU WANT TO FIRST FIND OUT HOW THE FAMILIES ARE, DO THEY NEED HELP FINANICALLY OR ANY OTHER RESOURCE TO GUIDE THEM THROUGH THIS MORBID TIMES, RATHER THAN INVESTIGATING THE CRASH..THE DETAILS OF THIS TRAGIC CRASH IM SURE IS UNDERWAY RIGHT NOW WITH INVESTIGATORS..BUT HUMAN LIFE IS MORE IMPORTANT..WHERE THE HELL ARE YOUR PRIORITIES?? THIS IS NOT A BASH BUT SIMPLE HUMAN REASONING...... | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 183 Registered: 5-2003 |
BArt I tried several search engines.. no results. So don't slam Helmut for being a resource. Some of us want to know what happened. I have tried to find out which Police department handled the report but still working on it. Already some here are making noises about the location of 360 fuel cells... I am sure that Ferrari would be overjoyed to read such things. It's better to get the facts and decide what really led to this tragic event. | ||
| Wolfgang Eistert (53345)
Member Username: 53345 Post Number: 375 Registered: 3-2003 |
Thanks Andrew, Bart & Ton, thats excatly the point! | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 1187 Registered: 10-2001 |
Do you need to see pictures of a car torn in pieces to learn a lesson ? Doesnt just the fact that 2 people whith whom you chatted , or met , died is enough to teach you that lesson ? I know on sunday i was supposed to go to Spa for a Ferrari day, i just couldnt. | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 430 Registered: 9-2002 |
As I've said I wouldn't come here anymore for the next weeks, but I'm aware of what I said yesterday. And as I'm aware that I said some nasty things, I regret the things I've said and I'm sorry for that. After all things I've read and talked about the post of Helmut was the final drop. If someone wanted to see those photo's, do a search yourself. Like I said before, nobody was around at the time of the crash, so nobody will find out what happend. Let it Rest. I'll take this up trough private emails with Helmut, since it's a private matter now. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1309 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ton: what if you broker a compromise with Helmut? I don't see a legal action over these statements; nor does Helmut want to be viewed dimly by this community. Maybe, in the moment, we can all just let it rest. | ||
| Ton Visser (Lion315)
Member Username: Lion315 Post Number: 652 Registered: 12-2002 |
The talk about lawyers is because we are threatened with legal action by Helmuth. But please all stay calm. I think that Vincent at the Euro section makes a point. Whenever a F1 car crashes the pictures are everywhere in the newspapers. Nobody thinks about the impact on the family that these pictures might have. Of course it is very unappropriate of Helmuth to put down this link. But that only applies for the people who cared about the victims. The other big part of the world lives on sensationalism. That is the truth! I personally consider it a good thing that Rob took the link off this board because there is too many caring people, who are still in severe grief, participating on this site. But instead of shouting and screaming we maybe have to accept that this is also a part of this crazy world. And while there are (as some people say) lessons to be learned, I want to ask the rest of the world to consider the fact that there are people with severe grief. Please give them some slack and time. The discussion about taste is a completely different one, whom in my opinion is more ethical and worldwide. We better let it rest and mourn over Jens and Amar. Maybe we should not say too much about it anymore on this board. I hope that they rest in peace. Ton | ||
| Jeff B. (Miltonian)
Member Username: Miltonian Post Number: 385 Registered: 12-2002 |
Just a quick note of support to Rob for taking a stand. They crashed. They died. We're all sorry it happened. How many of you whining about the removal of the pictures are still anxiously waiting for Dale Earnhardt's autopsy photos to be made public? | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 427 Registered: 10-2002 |
This a tragic event and I am really lost for words.We must learn from this event. What exactly happened ? can we learn some thing positive from it ??? | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1310 Registered: 12-2002 |
Its not about censorship...Its about being posted at an inappropriate, and sensitive time. Its just not very classy --especially when family members of the victims are lurking on the website. I think some people are trying to read too much into it like some sort of conspiracy. | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 654 Registered: 11-2001 |
Good point by Henryk, I'm curious on knowing what the 360 was equipped with on that last track day, if it was stock it should have never been put to it's undetermined limit for the track. Pictures of events can tell a story in one minds eye weather graphic or not but will put an impact on your head before you do something crazy for example seeing a lot of motorcycle accidents prevents me from ever buying another bike again. Although some may think it's not appropriate to show I do have to agree it's a personal choice weather you want to view it or not, if you clicked it you were interested to check it out like I did but the pics were not here to see. Yes I can see how it may not be appropriate to show any graphic pics at this point but that is not what I was looking after anyway, I wanted to see how bad the crash was to somewhat determine how it happened. I learned from track courses to respect and to discipline your driving habits no matter where you drive and especially if you are carrying a passenger and this is one that most people do not think about but only think of how they can impress the passenger, I've seen this happen many times before and the person driving should be a very experienced one who has driven the roads before. | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 417 Registered: 10-2002 |
I understand Amars was a FOC Registered member in the UK. I think a minute silence should be given in respect to Amars and Jens at the UK National Concours on Sunday 06/07. What do you all think ???? | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 413 Registered: 10-2002 |
Helmut, I agree with you... I still have not seen the photos, but by seeing them we can all learn soemthing positive from them. We can all remeber when we are out at a Trackday to think twice and take it steady in the morning, learn the circuit and push a harder in the afternoon. My fathers friend was killed and my father parazlyed from the chest down from a racing accident. I have learned a great deal from his accident. Its upto the individual to decide if they want to look at the photos. Its not bad taste, its looking at the photos and realisng this is what can happen on a Trackday and remeber to stay safe and turn this tragic loss into something positive. I think we all, THINK trackdays are safe to a degree becuase the event is controlled and safety gear must be worn. Well, its not the case and all motorsport is dangerous... RIP Amar and Jens God bless them. | ||
| J.W. A. (Boxer12)
New member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2003 |
Remember this one? "The TRUTH! You can't handle THE TRUTH!" That's true, isn't it? | ||
| J.W. A. (Boxer12)
New member Username: Boxer12 Post Number: 25 Registered: 6-2003 |
Censorship lives in America. Read the little blurb at the top of The Times..."All the news thats fit to print!.." OK for the guys in the 'know' to go to the website (that they pass around via email) and have a look for themselves, but lets protect others from seeing it...Bullsheet. America, the great hypocracy. Why should Fchat be any different? | ||
| David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member Username: Rodsky Post Number: 76 Registered: 3-2003 |
helmut - well put. Even though I support the fact that Rob pulled the pictures, I agree with what you're saying. That's the issue with the written word. Sometimes, without a physical expression or adequate context, people are more prone to jump to an invalid conclusion. That is why you are seeing the name calling. Helmut, just like you didn't mean to offend and had the best intentions, those that responded may have done so in the heat of the moment without a full understanding of your intent. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 818 Registered: 8-2001 |
EVERY time I hear about a crash in the local area, pictures of it are on the morning news, and in the local newspaper. Isn't this also true in other areas? My point, is that, the EFFECT is more pronounced while the accident is still in our minds. The EFFECT that I am referring to is that of helping others to think TWICE!!!!!! | ||
| Branko Medenica (Branko)
Junior Member Username: Branko Post Number: 91 Registered: 3-2003 |
Helmut and Peters, well stated. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 1934 Registered: 6-2001 |
Rob: You did the right thing. Those pics were ugly, and now isn't the time to show them. Art | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 882 Registered: 1-2003 |
Jay...Good post..But with the good summer weather and many members attending such events, this may have saved one (at least from an injury). Again, I have great respect for your position on this topic. | ||
| Jay Grande (Jay)
Intermediate Member Username: Jay Post Number: 1390 Registered: 10-2001 |
Peter and Henry, I agree.But I think what Rob is saying is that it is not the right time for the pictures. Who knows, in a few weeks or months it may be appropriate. With the family looking at the site I think Rob made the right decision. I find that I am second guessing my decision to race at club events, even during family lapping where a helmet is not required. I've done 1/4 mile racing before quite extensively, but this incident has really opened my eyes to the dangers of track racing. I found that I am really disturbed by what has happened to Jens and Amar and to be honest, that might be any one of us. | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 881 Registered: 1-2003 |
'I have posted the link to the pics only to give those, who look on them, a warning what can happen if you drive with pedal to the metal on the RING'.... I support Helmut and his intention of making this post. How can someone be a 'bad person' by trying to warn us of such dangers? I read all of the posts regarding 'Tracking' cars. Its an attractive thing to do. In the last month, I have made a few phone calls to do the same with my 308. The last thing I EVER thought about was getting killed, but it happens! OK, this particular track was difficult, but accidents can happen on a field that is more tame. What if I went to Sears Point and made a fatal mistake on a track-day? Such a post (as Helmut's)could have kept me from going (and it may). Would anyone want my girlfriend to go to Fchat and make a post that ANOTHER member was killed? Lets thank Helmut for the 'spirit' of his post and not lambaste him. Sorry to all, but I feel he is doing us all a service that nobody has yet to do. Now here's a guy that loves his fellow FCar brother. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 816 Registered: 8-2001 |
While the deadly crash is tragic, I can't help to think, that my first impression, is of driver error. One poster was trying to be nice, and stated that "the car lost control". Control of what?.......it is the driver that looses control......of the car!!! I recall that in Driver's Ed, it was the crash scenes that disturbed us the most. If this wasn't true, then why would they still have them? The whole idea was to show what happens when one gets reckless in a car....and hope to stop someone else from doing the same......at the least, to think twice. The 360 was NEVER intended to be a RACE car!!!! High performance (within reasonable limits).....YES.......but race......NO!! I would guess the driver went beyond the reasonable limits, and to do it with a passenger in the car, is TOTALLY uncalled for. I understand that 6 people got killed in the LA area, after the first movie of Fast and Furious.....while drag racing. The bottom line is that showing people drinking beer, drag racing down the street, etc., does NOT save lives.....but showing what can happen to you if you go beyond the limit, DOES!!!!!! One post stated that the driver of the 360 laughed when asked to put on a helmet. If this is true, then I think it was stupid. Why not have a memorial for the 45,000-50,000 people that die on the US highways every year? Many of us have Ferraris, and should be able to see what can happen, and why. This can only serve to, hopefully, convince someone, one day, late at night, NOT to try something stupid. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5369 Registered: 12-2000 |
Helmut, I didn't hold it against you. Everyone knows I don't censor or moderate this site much at all. This time it just seemed the right thing to do. I can understand how others reacted more harshly, please understand their position too. We have a very unstable and wide range of emotions right now. | ||
| Dave Burch (Merlyn)
Junior Member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 78 Registered: 8-2002 |
I think the link should be reinstated with a disclaimer that these pictures are graphic in nature, and do not click on link if you are emotionally involved. I also wonder about a stone tablet placed at the site instead of a tribute in a magazine. I don't know the Nurburgring's policy on that though. I know there is a stone tablet at the Hockenheimring in memory of Jim Clark. | ||
| john roberts (Jr328gtb)
New member Username: Jr328gtb Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2003 |
helmut - very well said hopefully this is the end of this | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 659 Registered: 8-2002 |
Helmut - excellent post. | ||
| Helmut Schnug (Ferrari_e_basta)
New member Username: Ferrari_e_basta Post Number: 47 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello Rob and all Please read this email very carefully!! I feel I have to explain why I have given the link to the pics. It was not my intension to split the members into two camps. Also I feel very sad about what happened to Jens and Amar - there is no doubt about. I have spoken to Jens Haller some weeks ago during a long phone call and asked him to be careful by inviting other Ferrari owners to drive their cars on the most difficult and most dangerous circuit of the world. Non of them does have any or if, just less experience how to drive a Ferrari with high speed on that tricky circuit. I suggested him to book a professional instructor for some laps, also to wear a crash helmet. Jens started laughing and told me: Helmut, we don't want to held a race. We just want to do a few quick laps on the famous RING to have fun. I asked him not to share the codriver seat with somebody whom we've met thru the net just a few hours ago. Well, Jens ignored everything and you now what happened. I have posted the link to the pics only to give those, who look on them, a warning what can happen if you drive with pedal to the metal on the RING. And exactely this happened. Both, Amar and Jens drove with overestimation, too fast, they lost control and..... I know of what I'm telling about. I live just 22miles from the RING. Well, Rob - it is your site and I have to respect your decision to delete the link. OK! But I dislike the behaviour of 2-3 fellow members giving me bad words like....sick satisfaction.... ..tasteless idiot...little motherf... I will take action on Bart and Tom if they don't apology on this forum inbetween 24 hours. I will thank to those who have understand my intension to give the link to the pics. For sure, I don't publish the link again, but the ones, who will see them, shall send an email to me privately. Last but not least: I feel very sad what happened to Jens and to Amar. May their dead be a warning for all of us. Thanks for your interest and passion to read this email. Helmut [email protected] | ||
| john roberts (Jr328gtb)
New member Username: Jr328gtb Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2003 |
Mr. Doody - i wonder whether Rob would agree with your view....that this is HIS site and it is HIS to do with as he pleases. ROB???? I understand his reasons for deleting, as he clearly articulated, I just do not agree Also, i wonder whether the sponsors of this site (paying I assume) would agree that it is ROB'S site.... | ||
| PeterS (Peters)
Member Username: Peters Post Number: 876 Registered: 1-2003 |
I think that a Psychology major (if we have a degreed member here) should chime in on this post. I do not understand the attraction in having a need to see such pictures. I DO know that when people go to car races, boxing matches etc., most do not want to see great bodily injury or death, but they sure want to be there when it happens. I do remember the thread in which people sent in car crash pitures. That had quite a bit of posts in which nobody raised much fuss. I would guess it is the fact that most everyone had no connection with the people in those photos as they may have with the current accident that has garnered so much attention. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 658 Registered: 8-2002 |
I *am* an active member of this board, and while saddened by the loss, like several others I am not personally deeply affected. I agree with Dave and Jeff and John and others. Someone would have to make a conscious choice to click on the link to see the pictures. If they didn't want to, they didn't have to. Unless you knew the background, they're no worse than Ferrari test crash photos. But for those who were friends of the drivers, I understand their personal preferences, and respect them. I hate to hear of ANY driver hurt or car damaged, but it's always worse when it's someone you know; it changes your perspective. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5367 Registered: 12-2000 |
Urgh, this is the part I don't like about running FC. I can't please everyone. I still stand by my decision for a few reasons. 1) It's too emotional of a time. For the few that had a problem with me removing it, I know the majority would have a more intense view if I left it. 2) More out of respect for the family that has been provided the links to our threads of condolences in this very tough time for them. 3) For the few that want to see the pics, you don't need FC to find them. Use someone else for your medium this time around. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2011 Registered: 8-2002 |
In defense of Rob: Myself and several other F-chat members have known about the photos since earlier this morning, well before Helmut chose to post the link here. Being active members of this board, we were affected by Friday's events and never even considered posting a link on this site out of respect for others who were feeling as stirred as we were. I'm sure Rob had similar feelings and, as Doody points out, he is free to do with this site as he chooses. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Junior Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 243 Registered: 2-2003 |
Herr Doody is spot on. Whatever anyone feels, Rob can do whatever HE feels is most appropriate on HIS site, as HE is ultimately responsible for it. Not an issue of what he should or shouldn't - we can all leave with a click if we do not like it. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 1298 Registered: 3-2001 |
I don't think Rob pulled the plug on the link to censor anything... I think he did it out of respect for Jens, Amar and the others who were attending the event. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1272 Registered: 11-2001 |
Jr328gtb - this is the real world. this is rob's site. it is his to do with as he pleases. we are guests here. if you think there should be no administration of content, then you should start your own ferrari chat site. this isn't a value judgement on censorship one way or the other - it's simply the cold hard facts of the matter. doody. | ||
| john (Johnwto)
Junior Member Username: Johnwto Post Number: 99 Registered: 6-2002 |
it's a sad sad time for many involved but we are big boys. if we CHOOSE to look at the pictures then so be it. we all drive at extreme speeds from time to time. we know the risks and the dangers. | ||
| john roberts (Jr328gtb)
New member Username: Jr328gtb Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2003 |
By the way, I don't care about seeing more photos, in fact I didn't see the first ones, but my comment was about how the site is administered | ||
| john roberts (Jr328gtb)
New member Username: Jr328gtb Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2003 |
IMHO, this site and its content should not be censored by an administrator (no disrespect intended to Rob). The internet is intended to be all info for all people and you pick and choose what you want to read/see. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2049 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rob, STRONGLY disagree. But, it's your site... | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1788 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Terrible crash ! More photos please .<< VERY TERRIBLE !! I don't want to see any more photos, but some information about what may have led to the crash would be helpful if it was something like a blown tire or handling issues, in which case it might be possible to avoid a repeat.. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 815 Registered: 12-2001 |
I agree with Dave, Frank, and Jeffrey here. I don't see a problem with having the photos available to view. We are all adults and can choose for ourselves what we wish to view. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2564 Registered: 9-2001 |
Terrible crash ! More photos please . | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2003 |
The division here is interesting.. Thankfully. For some of us this is not personal. It is painful but it is also a point of interest. Any driver is , hopefully, somewhat technical. Knowing the details of events helps us to understand and avoid our own mistakes. It makes us reflect. Thses photos are not an insult nor are they wrong. I can only assume that we all looked at pics of Senna's Shunt. | ||
| Joop van der Meer (Jhjvdm)
New member Username: Jhjvdm Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2003 |
Isn't this a forum of extremes? One day you discover pictures of a speedometer in the thread 'Flat 12 stupdity you will find interesting' featuring a car doing twice (or three times) the 'normal' speed, and a couple of days later (a link to) pictures of a wrecked car of two of our members. Naturally I regret the death of both, being enthousiast contributors to FerrariChat. But what speed did they reach on the N�rburgring? Could it have been possible that they took a photo of their speedometer? Of course I prefer to see a picture of a beautiful Ferrari - with healthy and happy people for that matter. But nobody is obliged to have a look at photo's of the accident. It just depends from which side one looks at things. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Junior Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 163 Registered: 5-2003 |
I agree with Dave. Insight can only be gleamed by research. it is not out of disrespect or morbid curiosity.. but interest in events. I do understand why some would not wish to view them. Perhaps an address or eamil where they can be gotten from. | ||
| Ansgar Sch�rmeyer (Taunus)
Junior Member Username: Taunus Post Number: 205 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have just contacted the webmaster of that site and asked to take these pictures from the net. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2048 Registered: 1-2002 |
I am sorry to have to respectfully disagree with these posts. Choosing whether or not to view these disturbing photos does NOT diminish our love/respect/friendship for the deceased. But they are a humbling reminder of the very real downside of our automotive passion. Con saluti cordialissimmi | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 427 Registered: 9-2002 |
As I've not seen the photo's neither did I want to see them. Like Ton said, it might even be better to leave Fchat for a while, if it wasn't a place which brings so much comfort. Ton, talk to you trough email and phone. Let me know what you heard and talked about. I already was affraid that the photo's might show up and I was thinking about putting a request up to keep the photo's for your own SICK satisfaction. But I thought, well the people from Fchat know what's going on and aren't that stupid. But this just proves me wrong  Helmut, ............. | ||
| Ansgar Sch�rmeyer (Taunus)
Junior Member Username: Taunus Post Number: 203 Registered: 6-2002 |
Sorry, it is tasteless in my opinion ! | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Intermediate Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 1151 Registered: 9-2001 |
Rob, Please remove this link, I don't even want to look at it. We cannot remember them like this. | ||
| Ton Visser (Lion315)
Member Username: Lion315 Post Number: 649 Registered: 12-2002 |
I think that Helmuth is a tasteless idiot! I cannot find other words for it. He should just have left it the way it was. I apologize for this strong reaction but I am very upset about this! Ton | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 109 Registered: 3-2003 |
Do we really need to see this? Delete please. | ||
| DJParks (Djparks)
Member Username: Djparks Post Number: 334 Registered: 2-2003 |
The car is constructed completely of aluminum. It melted from the heat. I have been around aircraft most of my life and have seen a few crashes. I feel terrible for the all involved. Sickening to see. A terrible reminder of the downside of performance driving. May both men rest in peace. DJ | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2092 Registered: 4-2002 |
POOR TASTE..PRAY FOR THEM.......... | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5447 Registered: 8-2002 |
yes. Delete it. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 1177 Registered: 10-2001 |
Please delete this . | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Junior Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 232 Registered: 2-2003 |
nm | ||
| Helmut Schnug (Ferrari_e_basta)
New member Username: Ferrari_e_basta Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2003 |
Hello those who want to see photographs about the crash will find eight pictures here: (it will need about 30 seconds before one can see all pics) [removed by Rob - not appropriate for this time] a sad Helmut |