| Author |
Message |
Tom Gehring (Tomg)
New member
Username: Tomg
Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 9:52 am: | |
Ronr,
I'm not sure on why some bottles carry a 120F rating. I will ask my sources today and try to find out. I do know that in the case of dry chemical extinguishers the powder can "cake" at elevated temperatures. This results in only a "woosh" of propellant and no powder when you discharge the extinguisher (very disconcerting). When I worked as a corner marshal we would tip our bottles upside down and back again several times to break-up the powder, before the on track sessions started, since our bottles would sit out in the hot sun all day.
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Ron Vallejo (Ron328)
Junior Member
Username: Ron328
Post Number: 209
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 25, 2003 - 7:14 am: | |
Thank you for all the responses. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 444
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:26 pm: | |
Here is a link for you guys. FAQs and an online order form. Price: $99.00 and $149.00 in a cool looking CHROME bottle. click on the bottom left side: "shop now".
www.h3r.com/halon/faq.htm |
Ron R (Ronr)
Junior Member
Username: Ronr
Post Number: 186
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 8:48 pm: | |
Anybody know about leaving the extinguishers in the car when it's hot outside? Some of them are only rated up to 120F, but I'd think that if they're designed for automotive or industrial use, that they could handle a balmy Texas summer. |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 795
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 5:01 pm: | |
"I thought magnesium wheels were dropped because (a) they're brittle and prone to breakage,"
These are forged magnesium wheels. The technology was developed in the late 1980s and early 1990s for longer lasting F1 wheels. The forged variety are much stonger than the cast variety.
"and (b) they're difficult to light, but once lit, they're darn near impossible to extinguish."
The burning of magnesium creates enough energy, that it will disociate hydrogen from oxygen in water and continue burning!
"Are they some kind of magnesium alloy?"
Anything less than 100% has to be considered an alloy. So, yes. |
DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 95
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 3:50 pm: | |
Really?! I thought magnesium wheels were dropped because (a) they're brittle and prone to breakage, and (b) they're difficult to light, but once lit, they're darn near impossible to extinguish. Are they some kind of magnesium alloy?
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Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 701
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 3:33 pm: | |
quote:older "mag wheels" that are real magnesium
New Ferrari's have true magnesium wheels. |
Tom Gehring (Tomg)
New member
Username: Tomg
Post Number: 24
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 3:33 pm: | |
The common dry powder retardant "purple K" is corrosive to aluminum, when combined with heat and water. Discharge that in your engine compartment to put out a minor fire and you may end up with a major repair bill or nagging problems for the rest of the cars life. Note that I said minor fire because none of the bottles we carry in our cars will put out a significant fire. If you ever get a chance to go through fire training where you get to put out a flammable liquid fire with a hand held extinguisher ...do it... It is a real eye opener to find out what it takes to put out a fuel fed fire. A flammable liquid fire quickly builds to something unmanageable as the heat from the fire vaporizes more fuel. My �take home� from my fire training (both as a former SCCA corner marshal and my job as a chemical engineer) are grab the biggest damn bottle I can find and get to the fire quickly before it builds to a point that I cannot handle it with a fire bottle.
BTW Halon can also be a problem around flammable liquid fires. Halon when exposed to very high temperature breaks down into Phosgene gas (highly toxic, primary ingredient in mustard gas used in WW1). Having said that, I have a 5lb Halon bottle in my cars. The primary advantage is that you can discharge the Halon into a barely cracked open hood or engine cover (avoiding risk of personal injury and flash fire by opening the hood) and put out the fire. Where as with a dry chemical really requires that you fan the stream across the base of the fire which is hard to do through a small crack in the hood.
I�m not sure if I remember right, but I believe Halon does not work via oxygen displacement (like a CO2 extinguisher) but actually interferes with the oxidation reaction of the fire. In either gas the issue with the re-flare-up is that Halon is a gas and a little wind will disperse it and allow the fire to start back up if there is sufficient heat or ignition source.
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DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 92
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 12:35 pm: | |
I've considered the remotely triggered extinguisher types mounted in aircraft ("pull the bottle!").
But, as was pointed out in another thread, the most common use of a portable extinguisher in a car is to suppress a fire in someone else's vehicle, to give them a chance to get clear.
Oops - I forgot: The most significant advantage of Halon over dry chemical agents is that there isn't an issue filling a closed room (or cabin) with Halon gas when there are people still breathing there. That's one reason it's often used in computer rooms and aircraft cabins.
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P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 440
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 12:35 pm: | |
Again, revert back to my original post.
DO NOT use the Halon ext. as the cure all, end all, fire supression system. Carry at least one back up.
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TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 3945
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 12:25 pm: | |
seriously, we have had discussions on whether once you have gotten yourself to safety, whether you are better to let is burn to ashes as oppose to try to salvage something half burned. Prob better to get insurance proceeds and a replacement car at a certain point unless it is a true classic |
DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member
Username: Dgs
Post Number: 91
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 12:22 pm: | |
The advantage of Halon is that it leaves little residue to clean up after use. But it's better to clean up after a chemical extinguisher than to sweep up the ashes.
Different extinguisher types have different ratings for different fire classes. In the US, there are UL ratings for effectiveness on each class.
Many multipurpose chemical (e.g. ammonium phosphate) extinguishers are rated for fire classes A,B, and C, but sodium bicarb or potassium chloride extinguishers are not very effective on class A (wood, cloth, etc.) fires. Dry chemical types leave considerable residue to be cleaned up.
CO2 extinquishers are most effective on fire classes B & C, and leave little residue, but are harder to use to completely extinguish a fire, unless you get to it while it's still small.
Water type extinguishers are used for class A, but can spread burning liquids (class B), making matters worse. Foam (AFFF) is used for A and B. Both types of extinguishers are subject to freezing and becoming ineffective, and neither is good for class C (live circuit electrical) fires, due to the potential for conducting electricity.
Halon 1301 is rated for class B and C; halon 1211 (more than 9 lbs capacity) is rated for ABC.
In all cars, you need B & C coverage (burning liquids and electrical). For upholstery and insulation padding, you need class A coverage as well.
If you have any significant quantities of magnesium, titanium, or sodium in the car, there (theoretically) ought to be a class D extinguisher, too. Flamable metals burn much hotter than most fires, and are notoriously difficult to extinguish. The extinguisher should list the metal type that matches it's extinguishing agent. These types of extinguishers are rare, since burning metals are uncommon in the home. (But if you have older "mag wheels" that are real magnesium instead of an aluminum alloy, then your car is at risk.) These dry powder extinguishers are not multi type extinguishers, so you need separate ABC coverage. The general advice regarding class D fires is to stand well back and enjoy the show -- there's considerable risk of injury and not much chance of success trying to extinguish this type of fire with hand-held equipment.
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DJParks (Djparks)
Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 338
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:57 am: | |
I agree that flash back is possible and am considering the Halon for mounting in the cabin and an ABC in the trunk. The access should be easy as the rear hatch will be open anyway in the event a fire should start.
Not too keen on the mess it would make but as one Fchatter pointed out, 'If you have to empty two bottles on it the fire will have made it a mess of the car anyway'.
DJ |
DJParks (Djparks)
Member
Username: Djparks
Post Number: 337
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:52 am: | |
I just bought one for my 308.
Something noteworthy. The sales person told me to store the Halon extinguisher at angles 45 degrees to straight up when ever possible because the Halon attacks the threads on the main fitting making it nearly impossible to open for cleaning and recharge. This after 7 years of being stored on it's side.
He said it would be okay to drive with it on it's side and set it upright when the car is put away after the latest excursion.
DJ |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 439
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:47 am: | |
The one LARGE downside to Halon or Halotron is in the event of a REFLASH. If you opt for Halon, MAKE SURE you have a back up as well. If a reflash occours (and often does) you are all the way back to square one as you watch your f-car burn to the ground.
Best off to carry a chemical ext. as well for back up. The chemical ext will cause a huge mess, and could actually ruin electronic as well as mechanical items but I guess it is the better of two evils.
FYI, fires are rated by catagories: "A" "B" and "C". Material, electrical, and fuel type fires. Halon is effective for all 3 catagories.
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TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 3943
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:29 am: | |
if I am not mistaken Halon actually sucks the oxygen away from the fire, starving it , and as Rob points out without the mess. |
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 699
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 11:24 am: | |
quote:advantage of halon or halotron
Friendly to sensitive electronic components. Pull a dry powder bottle on an engine and you're looking at an enormous mess, and possible rebuild.
Halon (and derivatives) leaves no residue. It's the only extinguisher allowed for computer equipment rooms. |
"The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member
Username: The_don
Post Number: 5457
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 9:23 am: | |
get ones with the most pounds |
Crawford White (Crawford)
Junior Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 89
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 9:19 am: | |
What is the advantage of halon or halotron over the $39 unit that Martin installs?
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Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 4931
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 8:39 am: | |
ups, here is the link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33722&item=2420731026
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Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 4930
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 8:39 am: | |
As I said before, every car should have one.
Here is a neat alternative.
Chrome extinguisher for under $40, no affiliation, but we will actually order them in the bunch and install them into all cars that are sold.
I see that bitching and moaning will not help and hoping that somebody in the government wakes up and does someting is not likely either, so I will be proactive with the little I can do.
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89TCab (Jmg)
Member
Username: Jmg
Post Number: 485
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 24, 2003 - 12:03 am: | |
Call Competition Components...chrome with logo for around 150 for 2.5#.
- JMG |
stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Member
Username: Ethans_dad
Post Number: 338
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 11:59 pm: | |
Ron,
Halotron 1 is an alternative to Halon 1211. It's primary advantage is I believe it has a longer shelf life and is more earth friendly. It is liquid based vs powder based halon. The liquid vaporizes under pressure and pretty much offers the same fire rating as halon. |
david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 11:51 pm: | |
check out www.westernfireandsafety.com (seattle)
I bought a 5lb one there a year and a half ago on sale for $89! I think I bought the 2.5lb one there three years ago for $110 (?!). Anyway, shipping and haz mat fees may not make buying on the internet worth it, so check locally too.
Dave |
Ron Vallejo (Ron328)
Junior Member
Username: Ron328
Post Number: 208
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 10:32 pm: | |
David. I'll try your suggestion. With my limited "research" though, Halotron seems cheaper. But is it "as good" (or almost) as Halon? THANKS. |
david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 10:24 pm: | |
Halon extinguishers are still readily available. I would go with which ever is cheaper. My local extiguisher company has "specials" on Halon extinguishers in different sizes periodically. Check in the local yellow pages, for a dealer near you. |
Ron Vallejo (Ron328)
Junior Member
Username: Ron328
Post Number: 207
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 23, 2003 - 9:37 pm: | |
Hi all. I searched the archive but there wasn't much about the aforementioned:
Anybody using this instead of Halon? Is this a good substitute for the latter? Any comment would be appreciated.
Thanks! |