| Author | Message | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 185 Registered: 2-2003 |
An additional data point, and a question for Rob. 1. A friend of mine just bought a 355CH. Came with a bunch of spares. The car had been in a couple of minor accidents but properly repaired. The seller claimed that it had just been gone through, lots of new stuff, great condition, etc. Confirmed by several sources that "knew" the car. OTOH, a few other people questioned that, saying the car wasn't as nice as others available. In any event, I saw the car this weekend, seemed quite nice, and it performed decently well on its shakedown run, though it needs a bunch of set-up stuff (suspension mostly). Paid $65k (spares included two additional sets of wheels). 2.  Rob, have you ever heard of the museum where George Washington's axe is on display and still used to chop down cherry trees in a weekly ceremony? "Yes, it's his original axe, though we did have to replace the head twice and the handle three times." So, your car has a "Brand new chassis and tub. Brand new paint job. Fresh rebuilt engine and trans" (which was alternated anyway). Sure it has the correct serial number, but how much stuff on it was actually on the car used by Steve Earle to win his championships? Just curious! :P vty, --Dennis | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5097 Registered: 5-2001 |
JOn, sure is not, neither is that to say privateer cars are all beaten up. You have to check them out. If you see repairs of frame then it was if not, then it is not. It is so easy to see frame damage on these cars since the entire frame is exposed. trunk and interior carpets removed and you see the frame. I love to look at track cars. Love to have them on a concourse as well but love it if they have all the good stuff: rock chips, paint scratches, tire rubber marks At the Annual FCA there was a 355Ch that won a prize. I thought that was nice but the damn thing looked like new. The guy had all the books, including the Challenge regulations just like the other concourse guys. "Where is your helmet buddy?" "Shouldn't you be in Tech right now?" | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 764 Registered: 8-2001 |
Martin, That is true but just because they didn't race at the front doesn't mean they didn't crash. Richard Millman who campaigned a 360 C for two seasons was dead last every race. At the Glen he would even get lapped by the few 355's that were running in 2000 and 2001. He wrecked that damn 360 at least 5 times. At the front of the grid the wrecks were caused by people fighting for position but at the back of the grid many wrecks took place that were single car incidents and driver error. At Indy last year I saw at least one bad wreck at the start when someone in the back spun out and hit the wall in the middle of the course with no one around. Bottom line is that unless it's documented that the car has little of no damage it will have some damage. For some people like you and I it's not a big deal, we know what race cars are we know how they are used, and we accept that they have damage and hope it was ocorrected properly. But don't forget many people at FCA events are moving from their pre-madona shinny road cars to a track only toy and are concerned about every little scratch and ding. Look at all those folks that spend 2 hours taping up the headlights, fender wells, and front bumper on their street cars. Even when my 355 was a street car I never taped anything excpet the fog lights. It entirely depends on who your customer is for a Challenge car. Jon | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 859 Registered: 4-2002 |
"did you make your move on the CH car? " I am negotiating both sides right now, one with the perspective co-owner, the other with my wife. Perhaps the 'other' is the harder negotiation..... | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5077 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jon, usually the guys in the back of the pack did not race as hard. Example my car was never a front runner and I guess that is what saved it from serious damage. If you are in P10 what do you care if you come in 10 or 11, you know what I mean? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5076 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob, okay, I agree with you and Jon, it does have history and it does have something "more" than all the others. You car truely is possibly the only that is worthy of being mentioned with history, I agree also that it will today not make much of a difference in price. As for the non-raced CH cars and thier body damage or lack thereof, well you never know. Even those may have had brushed with walls and broken A-arms from curbs and repaints. Without naming names one of those 360CH was on this board. The oldtimers will remember. 1000 Miles and side panel damage and re-paint. That was the first day out on the track. So there is no guarantee there is no damage. Those that have the car since day one can make such a claim since it can be verified. For example my car was raced but there is no sign whatsoever of frame damage. Yes it has been repainted on body panels over its time that is why I am doing it now in a total repaint. At the end of the day its a race car. If you drive it like Enzo intended it you will have body damage! he would have wanted it that way "If you don't spin out, you are not trying hard enough" | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 759 Registered: 8-2001 |
Martin, Rob, I think in Rob's case his car does have a bit of history due to the number of championships and the fact that at least within the Ferrari community it is a recognizeable car. While I don't think it adds much value I do think Rob's car is a bit unique and storied with history. And Steve E. was one of the few Challenge racers who had real talent as can be seen by his participation in the ALSM series, 24 Hours of Daytona and LeMans. That being said he is still an amatuer. But with the exception of Rob's car the other 355 C's are exactly what Martin described....track toys. Rob, you made a good point about the gentlemen racers of the 50's and 60's but Phil Hill was a professional driver who won at nearly every level including being the first and only American F1 champion to drive for Ferrari. While I respect Doc's E's talent and skill he can't be mentioned with the likes of a professional world champion. Martin, the only thing that makes "never raced" 355 C more valubale in my opinion is one that has not had any body damage or repairs. it is impossible to find one that has been raced (with freqeuncy) that hansn't had a collision or two. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5537 Registered: 12-2000 |
Martin, it's not that black and white. Although relatively insignificant, any 355 Challenge car that raced in the series, went to all those famous tracks, had a famous or infamous driver, and received media coverage will have history, however insignificant it may be. Does that history translate into $$$, heck no, the FerrariChat.com car won more challenge races than any other in the world, Le Mans driver Steve Earle owned and drove it for four years, and it has brand new paint, rebuilt engine, and rebuilt trans at a non premium price. I think I could sell the car for $85k if I was patient, but it would be for the fresh engine/trans/paint, not it's "history". The history is just a fun back drop for this car. Another last point to contradict what I just said though. Back in the late 50's when Phil Hill and others were doing gentleman "amateur" road races at Riverside in worthless Ferraris, who would of thought that history would make those cars famous 40 years later. Game, Set, ... | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5055 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mitch, did you make your move on the CH car? My car is in the body shop for a full re-paint right now. Will be silver with florescent green on the bottom. As for your discussions here: I think you are all wrong. A Challenge car is not a history piece. It is a track car. A great track car for that and still very competitive. It will not have any histrical value, not even your car Rob. But as you said that is not the point. As for those cars that were never raced being more valuable than others, I disagree with that as well. Once the car gets its track abuse it does not matter if from a privateer or a pro driver. Jon and Matt are skilled drivers, the abuse their cars get is as severe as if they would have been running in the series. Again, not that I think that matters! As for body penels being dented, get over it. Its a track car not a 250GTO show car and even those have bend fenders if they were raced. Having a full frame damage crash now there is something I would be worried about. Then if it was done properly by a F-dealer with correct parts, as Rob's CH has been, whats to worry. Obviously we all think OUR cars are the best of the best, but truely you are all missing the point: My car is the best! | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5014 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mitch, since I have a 355CH for sale I would be interested in some details once you can give them. Please feel free to e-mail off the board. [email protected] I have a buyer flying in on Saturday for a PPI. Will have an opportunity to run the car on Thursday at Moroso! | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2148 Registered: 1-2002 |
...and what a nice 355 C it is, Mitch!!  I hope it works out! | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 819 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ok; so we have a general consensus of $60K-$80K depending upon stuff. This is close enough for my information requirements at this time. I probably should have indicated (more strongly) that I have a car in sight. Thanks for your help! | ||
| Kevin Marcus (Rumordude)
Junior Member Username: Rumordude Post Number: 158 Registered: 9-2001 |
Two years ago, I bought the car you see in front (which actually won this particular race in the series): http://www.usgpindy.com/press/2001/ferrari-06212001.php for $72.5K on *ebay*. Pretty quick and easy to do the deal. I have been sports driving and racing it in local clubs since then. I have put about 25k total into it since the original purchase which includes new slicks (x2), rain tires and an extra set of rims for the rain tires, ripping out the power steering, and a variety of transmission/clutch issues. No engine issues. This particular car had been damaged and was repaired at ferrari of houston "way back when" - but either way, I considered it a steal. Oh, i will probably need some new rotors and brake pads this season to boot. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5446 Registered: 12-2000 |
Matt, you give me some driving tips on the East coast tracks and I'll show you how to bold, italic, and color.  Ok, I agree with much of what you say. Challenge series history really doesn't even come close to comparing with a Le Mans, Daytona, Sebring, or even a Grand Am car. However, I wouldn't discredit it completely. Just the fact that it's been pictured and written about in Forza and Cavallino dozens of times make it a familiar car. Just the fact that it's been reproduced by Hot Wheels in 1:18 form thousands of times make it a familiar car. No matter to what level, I think there is some value there. Put it this way, I know it doesn't hurt the value of the car. I think lousy is too negative of a term, but the Challenge series caters to who pays to be there, not to who earned the right from driving ability. That said many great drivers like Doc Earle have driven in the Challenge series. I don't know if the market rewards for it, but knowing a complete rebuild of these cars can cost almost as much as the car, I tend to give a fresh car more value. There aren't many 355 C's out there that have a fresh rebuild. Most were rebuilt every season or more when racing and haven't been touched since. In closing I don't have a problem disclosing the price of my car because it's my goal never to sell a Ferrari. However, I do think my car could go for $85k if I tried. Now that everyone in the Ferrari community knows what I paid, maybe not. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 515 Registered: 3-2001 |
Rob....you're right, we have had this discussion before. Your car is a good solid rebuild from the ground up, using new parts. Not in dispute. It's my opinion that considering the story that comes with the car, its a harder sell. Not a worse car, just a harder sell. People like you and I understand the story, and place value in it. Most don't. Most people don't want to have to deal with a story like that. And not to ruffle your feathers, but I'm suprised that you feel that ANY 348/355 or 360 Challenge Car has any real racing provenance that would have ANY positive impact on it's value. Being realistic, the Ferrari Challenge Series is made up of most a bunch of lousy drivers. Properly funded, I'd have set the lap records at Lime Rock and the Glen....and I'm no super Schumi. Racing history DOES NOT make these cars more valuable. The market for these cars has gone down. 16 years of institutional trading on wall street makes me understand the real value of my car. It's a good one, but it's not worth more because I own it. I do however feel it's worth more than a beat up SCCA driver, or even a completely rebuilt car with a story. Now if I were only able to highlight my comments in bold font like you are......... | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 739 Registered: 8-2001 |
Mitch, I don't think one can make a price determination based soley on what info you have given us. To come up with a price many factors need to be looked at. I agree somewhat with Matt. I know Rob got one hell of a deal on his 355 Challenge but each car has to be looked at on it's own merits. The market for 355 Challenge cars is very ineffcient (sorry I am an economist). Almost all the 355 C's are somewhat different. Some were built at the dealer, some at the factory, some with 98 updates, some without, some had everything stripped out but the kitchen sink some still had glass, working headlights, ac and so on. Some (very few) can be made street legal, some were never raced (very few again), some never wrecked, some never NOT wrecked. Many ended up finding their way into SCCA where people worked on the cars themselves and didn't have the proper dealer tools. And of course everyone (including myslef in a few months) thinks their particular 355 C deserves a premium. In my opinion (and it may be biased because of the car I have) some feel that a 355 C that has never been raced commands a premium. Next up is a 355 C that has never been wrecked or had body panels replaced. And lastly some put a premium on 95 model years (like mine) that have a title and can be made street legal. Lasly, high mileage cars need to have top end rebuilds at a minimum and gear box refreshenings. Also be careful here. I know of at least three 355 C's that supposedly had either a gear box refresh or an engine refresh but within weeks of buying one these items failed. One person had his gearbox go completely terminal this past January at Cavalino after a supposed rebuild just a few track events into his ownership. Many times people have things rebuilt to minimum standards so that car will do a few laps and get out the door. I would say the car you are looking at has a wide range from 70-80K depending on many factors I listed above as well as other items. My car will be for sale in late fall and I don't think I will part with mine for 75K but who knows what the market will bear at that time. My car is can be made street legal, has never been raced, only has 3000 track miles on it, and has a 7K Tubi Daytona GT3 exhuast and header package. To some these items are worth the extra premium but others I have talked to would rather save money and buy a car that has been raced. Everyone's different. Matt: Is this Barry's 355 C on Ebay? Looks like he got a 360 C from his screen name! http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6212&item=2420507414 Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 FLATOUT RACING Website: http://neverlift.homestead.com/flatout.html | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5444 Registered: 12-2000 |
Matt, we've discussed this before off line. I guess I need to go over it one more time. You bought your car from FoH a few years ago, you can call Tony or Mr. Risi and verify everything I say here... 1) I paid $75k. That was the asking price, I may have had room to go lower, but I wanted some extras with the car. Mainly SCCA roll cage with install. Which is a $5k+ job P&L. 2) My car has fresh rebuilt engine and trans. Steve Earle use to alternate between engines, he didn't run the same engine all the time. They are still newly rebuilt though. 3) After the second owner of the car wrecked it at Road Atlanta in 2000-1, the complete tub and chassis was new from the factory. Actually the very last one available. This was after you saw the car in Houston. So you have a newly rebuilt driveline. Brand new chassis and tub. Brand new paint job. Serial #104504, which is arguably the most famous 355 Challenge car in America and maybe the world. Only two previous owners. Always serviced by FoH/FoD. Pi data acquisition system. Set of spares. All of the above for $75k. That is the facts. Accept it that the market has gone down the past few years since you bought your car. Heck, 348 C's a couple years ago were going for what I paid for this. I think it was a great deal considering how fresh everything is. Only thing older than a few hundred miles on the car is just the trim and little accessories. So almost a brand new car with history. It's in better condition body wise than my 328 and everyone here that's seen it can attest to that. Maybe I got a great deal, but everyone else in the world had the same chance to buy the car as me. I've been seeing 355 Challenge cars go for $60-80k. If you have the choice, then get one with a fresh engine. That will cost you $25k every 2-3 years. So a rough $60k may not really be a bargain. Any questions? Tony will verify everything I've said. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 514 Registered: 3-2001 |
Rob...I'd say $75,000 will buy you a 355 Challenge car with a lot of body work done, and that's been beaten hard and made to look nice. I think $70 - $75 will buy a lower quality Challenge car, not one with the specs Mitch is looking for. Definetly not one with virgin metal and a rebuilt motor. I can say that I have a 98 Challenge car with a great/fully documented history, all updates, wickedly fast, virgin metal (NEVER HIT OR BENT), rebuilt gearbox (FOH) and a motor with good compression and leakdown, and have passed on offers higher than $75,000. Mitch....if you're serious about looking for the car you describe, my car might interest you. I'm going to replace her with a Jaguar XKR Trans Am Car. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 504 Registered: 6-2001 |
I ran my 360 Challenge at Pocono for the last 2 days. There were about 4 360 Challenges, and 8-10 355 Challenges. The 360's seem to spend a lot of time being repaired, and a lot of things just "don't work" (for example, no 360 has an accurate fuel gauge, the 355's all have accurate fuel gauges. This is only one example) 1) The 355 is much cheaper to buy 2) It is cheaper (many parts are much cheaper)and easier to maintain. 3) They seem to suffer fewer mechanical failures (maybe it's just the later 355's I'm seeing at track events, where Ferrari finally sorted them all out before discontinuing them). 4) It is much more stable and easier to drive at track speeds than a 360 Challenge, which can get very twitchy. It does give up some power, but if you are a very good driver in a 355, you will be competitive with many cars that have more bhp. 5) Some of the early 355 Challenge cars are street legal- a bonus. Had I been able to fit into one, i would have gotten a 355. If you are over 6' or fat, forget it, it's extremely tight inside. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Intermediate Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 1468 Registered: 7-2002 |
Martin's got one for $69K. www.4ferrari.com Saw one on either www.traderonline.com or www.dupontregistry.com last night. Can't remember price. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5437 Registered: 12-2000 |
$75k, so I've heard. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 818 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'm looking for a ballpark range (low to high) for a 96 F355 Challenge car: 6 speed; engine has <20 hours on a top end rebuild; never wrecked; original sheet metal; I am considering buying into this car with another owner. Any thoughts will be considered helpful. |