| Author | Message | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 138 Registered: 8-2002 |
Another good piece of film for heel-and-toe and double-clutching is in the first ten minutes of "Grand Prix" when the drivers are talking about how difficult Monaco is to drive; split-screen shots of the continuous dance in the pedal box those guys had to do back in the day. As my second gear syncro cone is practically gone (and third isn't far behind) I get plenty of good practice double clutching . . . | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1459 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks for the info Rich, I was wondering what they were saying during the race. I agree that the Murcielago's driver's laugh was hilarious  | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 328 Registered: 10-2001 |
Thanks for posting that Link Ben. That was a cool video and good practice for me to keep up my Japanese. It was funny too see the Lambo driver struggling with the car and complaining about its brakes and the weight of his car how the lighter NSX (I think it's about 700 lbs. lighter) could get him on braking and through corners every time (nice overrsteer on the nsx though!). But the Murcielago had the power and pulled it out in the end. The Murcielago driver laughing as he blows by the NSX is hilarious! The F50 sounded amazing - the driver really praised it as an easy to drive car (top speed but also cornering and torque). The GT2 was pretty impressive as well but no match for the Ferrari (the announcer says something about "it may lap nurburnig at 7min45sec but it can't catch the F50"!). Another funny bit at the beginning when the guy in the lambo (his name might be Fujisawa but the Chinese subtitles kept getting in the way of people's names and qualifying times) was trying to be all cool and tell the viewers that the word Murcielago was Italian for "bat" but the tv folks indicated on the screen in Japanese that it was actually Spanish, not Italian! I'm sure his buddies gave him grief about looking like a dork on TV, ha! Cool video! -Rich | ||
| Izel K. (Ferrarist)
Member Username: Ferrarist Post Number: 267 Registered: 3-2001 |
Ben that movie shows everything! Thanks for posting . | ||
| Dino Micalizio (Ingenere)
Junior Member Username: Ingenere Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2001 |
Syncros or not...when I double clutch in the Ferrari's...the downshifts are way smoother. It definitely seems like it's easier on the gearbox. I don't think that you are putting any extra wear on the clutch springs. Double clutching and heel and toe are just great techniques that everyone who drives a sports car should master...it's very rewarding to get it right....I remember both of those times ! But there is something fun about left foot braking the F1 gearbox cars....VERY late into a corner and trailing the brake while feeding in the gas....It's all good fun!! | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
Junior Member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 198 Registered: 11-2001 |
AHHHHH... I get it now!. Also didnt think about all the gears spinning w/rear wheels Now have to see if I can do it | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 327 Registered: 10-2001 |
A ha. I think what I had failed to grasp was that all the gears inside the transmission are always spinning (if the car is rolling!). This seems so obvious but I wasn't thinking about it I guess! So what you are trying to do by going to neutral for a second and connecting the input shaft to the engine is to simply speed up the input shaft to mach the speed that the lower gear is already spinning so that when you select it things don't cruch (and/or the synchro doesn't have to go to work). Makes perfect sense now. Thanks for the links. | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 145 Registered: 5-2003 |
The output shaft speed is set by the speed of the vehicle. Even in neutral, the output shaft is connected to the differential. Different gears have different ratios of input shaft to output shaft speeds. When down-shifting, the output shaft speed stays the same, but the input shaft speed must increase because both the engine and input shaft will be running more rpm in a lower gear for the same car speed (output shaft speed). A google search on "double-clutching" will give you a lot of longer explanations: http://www.austinmotorsports.com/article4.htm http://www.driversedge.com/dblcltch.htm http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/double-clutch.html | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 326 Registered: 10-2001 |
Thanks DGS. I guess I'm just wondering about this part "2c. "blip" the throttle to speed up gearbox input shaft". This makes sense to me. But since going to neutral basically disconnects the transmission input shaft speed from output shaft speed it makes me wonder what spins up the output section of the tranny to match the input shaft speed once you put the car into gear. I've never rebuilt a transmission so I'm unclear on exactly how they work. I'm going to have to go look at a cutaway of a transmission and think about it, ha! | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 142 Registered: 5-2003 |
Rich, In a synchro box, step 2 isn't really needed, but ... For a down-shift 1. clutch "down" 2a. shift out of gear 2b. clutch "up" in neutral 2c. "blip" the throttle to speed up gearbox input shaft This will be the rpm the engine will run once in the lower gear. 3a. clutch "down" 3b. shift into new gear The reason to have the clutch "down" for this step is that you probably don't have the revs matched exactly, but the gears can take up the small difference if they only have to "move" the rpm of the input shaft alone. 3c. clutch "up" -- while modulating the gas to match rpms The synchros will do the job that the double-clutch steps 2b-2c-3a do. The closer the rpms are, the less wear on the synchros -- but that's what they're there for. Steps 1-2a-3b-3c constitute a normal shift done smoothly. It's not so much "blipping" the throttle, as simply being "in touch" with the car and modulating the gas by feel as you release the clutch. It just takes practice. (How do you get to Car-Nagy hall?) Heel and toe just consists of braking and a normal smooth shift at the same time. Yes, it's possible to skip 3a and 3c and do 3b while modulating the gas, but that puts the wear on the gears, rather than the clutch. On an up-shift, the rpms decrease on the rpm and input shaft, so you don't "blip" the throttle, but you still need to tweak the gas by feel when releasing the clutch in 3c. Oh, and Subaru wouldn't lose much going to a drop ship approach: When I asked a local salesman if the STi in black had a clearcoat finish, he didn't know what I was talking about. He told me that the interior was "like the WRX, only different", and didn't know whether the engine was inline 4 on its side or horizontally opposed. Car dealers are getting too dependent on either (a) web site information distribution or (b) customers that don't bother to get information. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 518 Registered: 6-2002 |
You know DES... Don't let Subaru Corporate hear you. If anybody tries drop-shiping cars, the Japanese will do it first You crack me up buddy! Best! Ben. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5160 Registered: 8-2002 |
Out of the box...? Yours came in a box...? That must be a pretty big box... Um... How'd you lift it...? How'd you get it home...? Did you have another car to put that big of a box in...? Oh, man, i can just imagine all the bubble wrap or styroform popcorn thingies in a box that big... Your yard must've been a mess... ...ok, i'll stop now. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1387 Registered: 12-2001 |
You guys will laff, but my 23k $ Suburu WRX is set up, straight out of the box, to do this fairly easily. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 324 Registered: 10-2001 |
As I understand it, the proceedure is (i'm going to say down and up to avoid confusion of clutch in/out): 1. clutch down 2. take car out of gear and let clutch up 3. clutch down, match revs, shift into gear, let clutch up I always match engine speed (i.e. blip the throttle) before letting up the clutch when downshifting (and on cold up-shifts into 2nd). But I rarely do step #2, i.e. going into neutral and letting the clutch up and then pushing it down again. I guess I'm unclear on the benefit it adds. Can someone explain the benefits to synchro wear and/or smoothness of shifting that following 1,2,3 adds compared with just going 1, 3? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1376 Registered: 11-2002 |
Problem I'm having is that the gas pedal is very recessed in comparison to the brake. I guess this is a good thing for the track since you would be braking pretty heavily, but for street applications I can't get it quite right. I haven't tried on the Porsche yet, but once I have it a little better broken in, we'll see how it cooperates. Cheers | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 411 Registered: 3-2003 |
Jordan, try to play with the timing. You might have better luck if you blip the throttle when you have almost released the clutch, so the revs don't have as much time to decrease. | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1446 Registered: 12-2002 |
Tried it earlier today...Cant seem to blip the gas high enough to meet align the revs without really pushing it in deep (uncomfortable). So it wasnt much help. Ill keep practicing though. Ill get it | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 137 Registered: 5-2003 |
Todd: To start out, forget about double-clutching and the input/output shafts -- the synchro box takes care of that for you. "... right before downshifting to third...move right side of right foot over to accelerator and ..." For heel/toe shifts, the key is to not have to move your foot. Practice the moves separately: When shifting, sync the engine speed (blipping the throttle) so the car doesn't jerk back or ahead when the clutch is released -- the process should be smooth. (This will also reduce wear on the clutch.) When braking, pay attention to -- well, first pay attention to stopping  -- but pay attention to where you plant your foot on the brake pedal. Once you've gotten to the point where you can reliably brake by pressing the ball of your foot on the brake pedal, then your foot is already in position to start combining braking with shifting. That's all there is to heel/toe braking: just doing two normal things at the same time. It's mostly a matter of keeping track of where you put your feet. | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1444 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks PSK, Ill take a look at them! | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 653 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jordon, Hmmm, interesting I think it would be the other way around in Australia, i.e. more manual vans. But for the record I drive a Mazda E1800 van with seats in the back. It is a floor shift and 5 speed gearbox, and I really like these vans as they handle well (for a van). Nothing exciting but it gets the family around ... I used to tow my race car with a long wheel base version, so done plenty of reliable miles in them. I do not know if they are sold in the States, but they are common (or the bigger 2.2 ltr long wheel base one is) over here. Pete | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1441 Registered: 12-2002 |
PSK, out of curiosity, what van do you have thats a manual transmission? I need to buy a van in order to transport my bass but I only want to drive sticks...its pretty hard to find a manual transmission van. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 648 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lets talk about the blip during down shifts. It, as you have correctly pointed out, got nothing to do with output shaft speed unless you are also double-de-clutching (which has already been explained). The only reason, and very important reason to blip during down changes (when not double-de-clutching) is to accelerate your engine so that it does not cause massive engine braking when your lower gear is selected and the clutch let out. If you do not do this you could lock the rear wheels and spin of the track ... as the engine could not accelerate fast enough. Absolutely critical to do this when racing. Think about how your engine suddenly gets asked to rev by the rear wheels and if the rear wheels traction is already struggling (due to nose dive and extreme braking) then they will lock ... and you run the danger of losing the rear of your car. Please remember that Heal and Toeing, and double-de-clutching are completely separate things ... but can be done together to give the correct result for both things. BTW: Both are easy things to do once you have practised enough. In fact I find myself healing and towing on my van driving to work ... and those pedals are not set up ideally. Pete | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
Junior Member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 196 Registered: 11-2001 |
For heal/toe it is this? In 4th gear...need to slow and therefore shift to third...press in clutch...begin to brake...right before downshifting to third...move right side of right foot over to accelerator and blip peddle as to get output shaft up to speed as a straight downshift with result in higher engine speed due to lower shaft speed. So I am essentially "speeding up" the shaft as if I was traveling at the higher rpm all along. Correct... So instead of an abrupt rpm leap for the ouput shaft you blip the throttle to speed up the shaft so when it is remated it is already spining at new rpm and proper torque band...but, if the clutch pedal is in how am i speeding up the shaft...Explain to me like I am a two year old | ||
| Ken A (Zff)
Junior Member Username: Zff Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2002 |
I think double-(de)clutching has lots of valid applications for the street. Downshifting in an old car with blown out synchros, especially the 1st-gear synchro, for example.... and I always double-(de)clutch my 1st to 2nd upshift (if I don't skip it) when the tranny is cold. But ok, if the tranny's synchros are in PERFECT shape, yeah, I can see why you wouldn't ever do it. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1368 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ben, That's an awesome link! Gotta love the Japanese. Now if that Murcielago had a good driver...Hmmm... Cheers | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 512 Registered: 6-2002 |
link would help :P http://www.runeb.org/www_docs/Jexoticasite/soundandvideo/Best_Motoring-SuperCar_Race.mpg | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1383 Registered: 12-2001 |
Dan360: i always thought that patch was there in case you had to drag your foot to slow the car down, ala Fred Flintstone. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 511 Registered: 6-2002 |
My expierence: If you are bliping the throttle properly and time everything right on a heel-and-toe (in a fast tightening radius 3rd to 2nd gear turn ideally downshift, you'd barely know it happened, except you're ready to lay on the power on corner exit. Intrestingly enough, I very occationally will left-foot brake on some courses' turns I know very well <and that I will stay in the same gear for!>, this lets me hold the brakes on just a bit longer for sharper turn-in, and to at the same time be ready with the gas to roll it on (just as I am lifting completely off the brakes) so as to avoid that .2sec or so of complete lift where the car might spin There's NO reason to double-clutch in a modern street (syncro) automobile that is working properly. Here's a great video that shows some heel and toe action... in an F50... | ||
| Mfennell70 (Mfennell70)
Junior Member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 148 Registered: 7-2001 |
Partially disagree. I double clutch most shifts down to 2nd or 1st in my Lotus. It makes the gearchange itself much smoother. When you get it completely right, the lever just falls into gear like it's disconnected from the transmission. | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1428 Registered: 12-2002 |
Thanks for clearing that up | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 395 Registered: 3-2003 |
Same thing. | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1423 Registered: 12-2002 |
I think im just missing something, but whats the difference between "double clutching" and "double de-clutching"? Or is it just a different term for the same thing? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5088 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thanks, Faisal - i'm glad i asked... i'm leaving for lunch in a few minutes; i'll try it then... | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 393 Registered: 3-2003 |
More than the time savings, it's the right, (non-poseur) technique with modern transmissions. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5085 Registered: 8-2002 |
Faisal, however slight, that would save me time, huh...? Half a second...? Maybe closer to a whole second...? i need to try that... Thanks. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 391 Registered: 3-2003 |
Yes. That's right. You just need to engage clutch, shift down and blip throttle to match expected revs upon disengaging, then disengage cltutch. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5084 Registered: 8-2002 |
Faisal, maybe i'm confusing the term or using it wrong; double declutching is when i clutch/shift into neutral/declutch/clutch/shift into a lower gear... ...right...? | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 388 Registered: 3-2003 |
DES, it's silly to double de-clutch when your car has synchros. You are not helping, just wearing out the clutch springs twice as fast as you need to. Modern manual transmissions require just heel and toe. | ||
| Ken A (Zff)
Junior Member Username: Zff Post Number: 90 Registered: 12-2002 |
One of the many things I love about my 308 is that the pedals are PERFECTLY set up for heel & toe. Brake feel, throttle response, shape and distance of the pedals... everything. | ||
| Dan 360 (Dan360)
Junior Member Username: Dan360 Post Number: 75 Registered: 2-2003 |
Following on the rolling your foot theme, note that modern driving boots have a patch on the right of the right shoe - so left ball of foot on brake pedal, roll foot to right and blip throttle with right edge/outside of your boot. See picture ->  | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1357 Registered: 11-2002 |
So THIS is why AMG went for only automatic transmissions on their Benzs! Cheers | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5074 Registered: 8-2002 |
Yeah, i double clutch downshift when heel/toeing - i'm still not sure how what you're doing can be at all comfortable... Are you using the siDES of your feet like i do, or are your toes actually pointing up and to the left...? Everyone's got their own thing, this i know; it just seems a little strange to me, that's all... | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1381 Registered: 12-2001 |
I don't do too much of this on the street, DES, but yes, i cant my right foot at maybe a 50 degree angle, get to the brake with the front part of my foot (as DGS said, its more like the ball of the foot than the toe), and then sort of rock the outside edge of my foot onto the accelerator. The pedals have to be set up to do this, otherwise its a •••••. You see aftermarket throttle pedals with an extra wide flange on the left for precisely this purpose. It does make for smoother downshifts if you double declutch. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5071 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hey, did you guys know that Nika can heel/toe in heels...? That's cool... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 5069 Registered: 8-2002 |
LMAO...!
Whart, are you braking with your toe and blipping the throttle with your heel...? i'm a little confused by your statement... Jordan, i had the same problem with the pedals in my car; then i picked up some racing pedal "plates" that go over the pedals... They give them the appearance and feel that thy're closer together, thus allowing you to effectively "heel/toe"... The actual term though, "heel/toe", doesn't apply to me; when i first met EFWUN, that was one of the things we talked about; i was having a lot of trouble with the whole concept... He showed me that he takes the left side of his foot and applies it to the gas, while bending his ankle and applying the right side of his foot to the gas - instant answer...! i was very pleased and it didn't take me long to pick it right up...! i "heel/toe" with 90% of my downshifts and can't imagine life without it... Recently, i've begun working on my timing to get out of the turn earlier (but not too early) with speed, thus increasing efficiency and lowering my, um, lap times... | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 175 Registered: 11-2002 |
being naturally left footed, i've never quite understood how anyone would find it difficult to get into left foot braking...used to do it all the time when i drove automatics. Of course, gotta remember to revert to normal mode when driving a manual, otherwise you'll find out really quickly that depressing the clutch peddle doesn't do much to slow the car down(ouch). | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 130 Registered: 5-2003 |
Well, as pointed out in the article david referenced, it's really more of a "ball of the foot" and "arch", rather than heel and toe -- provided your pedals are close enough in spacing (and operating height). I've seen some cars where you could dislocate an ankle trying to heel/toe them. I wonder how many F1-equipped Ferrari drivers have taken up "left foot braking". | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1044 Registered: 10-2001 |
All Ferraris I've seen have the gas pedal mounted on the floor and the brake/clutch are hung. My Lotus (all British cars?) are the opposite so I learned it backwards. I brake with the heel and bip with the toe. I'm not sure I can do it like everyone else! | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1376 Registered: 12-2001 |
And the heel/toe part comes from the fact that, absent three feet, you need to use your right foot to brake, and at the same time, "blip" the throttle. If i remember correctly, older racing cars had a different pedal arrangement, too, with the throttle and brake pedal positions switched; thus, i think, correct me if i am wrong, but in those cars, you were blipping on throttle with the toe and braking with the heel. Today, of course, its the opposite... | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 128 Registered: 5-2003 |
To oversimplify a bit: in neutral with the clutch engaged, you have three independently spinning parts of the drive train: the engine, the gearbox input shaft, and the gearbox output shaft linked to the differential. The engine speed is controlled by the throttle, the output shaft speed depends on the car's rolling speed, and the input shaft is spinning freely. In neutral with the clutch "let out", the engine and input shaft are linked. You can hear an example of the gearbox input operating on a really cold winter morning. After starting the engine, listen as you release the clutch in neutral -- you'll hear the input shaft(s) starting to stir up the cold gearbox oil. If you just shifted out of 4th at 2500 rpm, the input shaft will be spinning at around 2500 rpm (it will be spooling down once it's free). But when you're done, you'll be in 3rd at, say, 4000 rpm on the engine -- and input shaft. That means that you're, in effect, trying to mesh an input gear spinning at 2500 rpm with an output gear spinning at 4000 rpm (or vice versa). Grind. A synchro box will try to match shaft speeds for you as you shift into 3rd. In a non-synchro "bash box", you have to use the engine to spin up the input shaft once it's out of 4th. Synchros will do this for you, but they make the shift a bit slower. That's all a bit oversimplified for most modern gearboxes, but that's the general gist. You can probably get several different opinions about the advisibility of trying to double clutch a synchro box. It won't really speed things up, but it might reduce strain on the synchros if you do it right. But you can put a lot more strain on things by getting it wrong even once. | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1418 Registered: 12-2002 |
Learning to heel toe (heal tow probably fits my attempts better) is one of my summer projects! The pedals arent really laid out well enough in my car to do it but Ill give it a shot anyway. Im a little bit unclear about the double clutching though...If I read it correctly, say Im down shifting from 4th to 3rd, I would press the clutch, shift into neutral, let the clutch out a bit while in neutral, then press it in again and shift into 3rd normally? What benefits does that offer other than matching engine speeds for a smoother downshift? Please let me know if I mis-understood it! | ||
| DGS (Dgs)
Junior Member Username: Dgs Post Number: 126 Registered: 5-2003 |
What's the size limit on posts? Double clutching is the manual alternative to synchros, and involves briefly letting the clutch out in neutral to spin the gearbox input shaft to the correct speed to match the output shaft speed in the new gear before bashing the input and output gears together as you shift into the new gear. Heel and toe involves doing two things at once: braking and shifting. Maximum braking without locking up requires modulating the brake pedal with your foot. Smooth shifting requires matching the engine speed to the drivetrain using the clutch and gas. Doing both at the same time requires three feet, or working the brake and gas with two sides of the same foot. The best way to learn this technique is slowly. Speed comes on its own, with practice. Oh, and the technique you hear about on Usenet, "heal and tow", is what happens after you get it all wrong. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1136 Registered: 5-2001 |
Go to www.ferrariclub.com and check the "ferrari FAQ's" the is one on "heel/toe". | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
Junior Member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 195 Registered: 11-2001 |
Would someone who actaully "does this" explain it to me properly.. |