| Author |
Message |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 722
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 10:24 pm: | |
Yep now thinking I might buy a FIAT 308 GT4, one day instead of a Ferrari 365 GT/4 2+2, as I want the +2 and wanting the mid-engined experience.
If I have enough money when the time come I may look at the FIAT 456, but I'm not sure.
Pete
ps: Funny that you will use the BRAND Dino, but not the BRAND Ferrari ... oh well, who cares eh? |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2702
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 15, 2003 - 9:28 am: | |
PSK, old Vipers were Chyslers, but the new ones are Daimler-Chyslers. In the end, I love my Fiat BB512i even though it has a funny looking horsey badge on it. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 706
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 6:54 pm: | |
Frank,
Not sure why I am bothering, but I have a couple of questions for you:
What is a Dodge Viper?
It is a Chrysler isn't it. And you cannot denie this because everybody knows this is true. Thus Chrysler own the BRAND Dodge and have used it for the Viper ... but the car is still 100% a Chrysler.
One other question: What is a FIAT Dino then? This is the front engined coupe or spider. Why are they called FIAT Dinos if the Dino brand is separate. How could you have 2 246 Dinos? ... that would be very confusing. Thus one is a mid-engined car the other is front engined ... but both could be called 246 Dinos as it is the same engine ...
Ferrari created the BRAND Dino, and when the Dino 246 was made they added (rightly or wrongly) their manufacturing label, ie. made by Ferrari. Thus yep it is a Dino, like the Viper is a Dodge, but like the Viper is a Chrysler the 246 Dino (mid-engined one) is 100% a Ferrari ... and it does not matter who actually made it ... even if is was Lada in Russia. They added the label made by Ferrari, thus it is a Ferrari. End of story.
This is how it is and was (read some Ferrari books  ):
Thus Ferrari is just another BRAND of FIATs now, thus that makes the F360, F550 also FIATs, just as the Doger Viper is a Chrysler ... technically.
Pete |
Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member
Username: Lomotpk
Post Number: 27
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 4:38 pm: | |
Man, this is dull.
Dino, Ferrari, Tomato, Potato |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2698
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 14, 2003 - 4:02 pm: | |
David, we are in fact NOW getting 500hp cars for less that $100k, ie the new Viper. And, Brian, I believe most people who can read acknowledge that while the Dino marque was a subsidiary brand of Ferrari ,the cars are Dinos not Ferraris. |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 121
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 3:03 pm: | |
Brian - I completely agree with you. I would not buy a Dino 355 or a Dino 360 or a Dino 420 etc. The aura, mystique, heritage, you name it - would be missing. I think Frank enjoys being irritating and grumpy.
The 360 was and is an elite sports car. When it came out in 1999 there were very few cars that could touch it. It was lauded etc. Today we are on the brink of seeing a jump to the next level - 500Hp, mid 150K's sports cars. Great - that is called technology advancing. Ferrari will respond. I would like to see the 360 with few cosmetic changes but some under the cover upgrades - power, handling etc. |
Tino (Bboxer)
Member
Username: Bboxer
Post Number: 314
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 12:20 pm: | |
Frank should stand at the Maranello factory gate at lunch time and spread his "Dino" gospel to management and workers. He will be laughed at all the way to the Coliseum ! |
rich (Dino2400)
Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 354
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 12:00 pm: | |
I mostly agree with Frank that 206 and 246 are Dinos, not Ferraris, and that this is nothing to be ashamed of. But, yes, they have the soul of a Ferrari. However, those that want to include them as Ferraris should be prepared to explain why the "Fiat" Dinos are different. All three were intended to be part of a new line of cars. Fiat rebadged one and owners rebadged another. But at least from '69 on, the cars were built by the exact same people, side by side.
Which brings me to my point: I don't think it is accurate that "Not one Ferrari employee turned a wrench in the construction of the Dino." In 1969, production of all Dinos (pininfarina spider, bertone coupe, and 246) shifted to the Ferrari factory at Maranello. I assume those people should be considered Ferrari employees even if Fiat was already cutting the big checks. Also, even in the beginning ('66), many Ferrari employees were directly involved in the design/engineering of the cars. |
Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member
Username: Kennedy
Post Number: 359
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 13, 2003 - 7:42 am: | |
quote:Psk, 246s are NOT Ferraris, they are Dinos. If the owner of a company, Enzo Ferrari in this case, can't pick the brand he wants to name cars he has produced by others, who can
Well, since I can't ask Enzo whether he considers a 246 to be a Ferrari, let me ask Ferrari SpA... I pop into the Ferrari Owners' Site, hit "Vintage", select "Classic cars", "GT Cars", pull down the menu that says "Models" next to the big cavallino, and I get a long list of Ferraris... no Lambos in the list, no Mclarens, no Fiats, no Alfa Romeos... but I do see the DINO 246 GT.
Hmmmm... as I said before, Frank, nobody but *you* thinks a Dino 246 GT is not a Ferrari. I believe if Enzo were alive today, he would agree it was a Ferrari... and Ferrari SpA would seem to agree with me, not you Frank.
Frank, after *years* of arguing this same thing, and after *years* of failing to convince anyone to agree, and after *years* of generating irritating threads... I must conclude that you do it simply to be irritating. (The only other conclusion is that you're a raving idiot, but given you have made intelligent posts on other topics, I'm guessing "troll who likes to irritate".)
Oh, and then there are your anti-360 comments, also designed to irritate...
quote:And while the 360 is a sports car, it is clearly not an "elite" one. Look it up, elite means superior and there are a gagle of cars out there that are faster and handle better than the 360 at a fraction of the price.
I read everything that compares a 360 to anything. In fact, I have a bookshelf dedicated to such. The 360 consistently comes out on or very near the top. Yes, it is typically beat in many single-issue categories, but it is near the top in each, and is almost always the top in the "overall" category. You are probably the only person on the planet who would dispute that the 360 is "an elite sportscar".
Top 10 elite production sportscars in history? Mclaren F1, Enzo, F50, 360, F40, 911TT, P959, ? Yes, I am a Ferrari nut... but I have a tough time identifying 6 cars that I would rate above the 360 to knock it out of my top 10. And that makes it pretty damned elite in my book. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 5562
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 11:26 am: | |
Frank, it's interesting how you have black & white views for many things. In this case the Dino not being a Ferrari. All your points are true, but the Dino does have the heart and soul of a Ferrari and MOST of the Ferrari community accepts it as a Ferrari.
I liked Gearld's past comments. Is anything after the partial sell out to FIAT a real Ferrari? Your BB may not be a real Ferrari technically. |
Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member
Username: Lomotpk
Post Number: 20
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 11:16 am: | |
Then why did they (Fiat) need the name of Enzo's dead son?
|
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2691
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, July 11, 2003 - 11:06 am: | |
Psk, 246s are NOT Ferraris, they are Dinos. If the owner of a company, Enzo Ferrari in this case, can't pick the brand he wants to name cars he has produced by others, who can . You ? NOT. By the way, while the valve covers on a 246 say Dino, the engine block and heads say Fiat. Pininfarina designed the car , Fiat designed the engine and built the car. Not one Ferrari employee turned a wrench in the construction of the Dino. So just what makes you think it is a Ferrari ? And, why would you want it to be anyway ? What's wrong with owning a Dino ? I like them myself. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 694
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 6:46 pm: | |
One other thing Frank,
Enthusiasts that like the 246 Dinos, like myself, still buy them KNOWING that they are a Ferrari.
That does mean that they are buying the car ONLY because it is a FERRARI, it is another plus. I do not know of anybody that thinks their 246 Dino is not a Ferrari, or a car manufactured by Ferrari.
And before you go on about it having FIAT components ... lets look at the 550. Ferrari did not make:
The alternator.
Air conditioning pump, etc.
Many wiring components.
Brake components ... probably.
And I could go on ...
NO CAR MANUFACTURER makes 100% of their cars, it would be absolutely stupid.
Ferrari needed FIAT to finance his racing. He also needed to make many more v6 engines to comply with the F2 rules ... thus getting FIAT to make heaps of these engines made this possible, and thus the FIAT DINO (front engined car) was born and the 246 Dino Ferrari. Yes he did not put the Ferrari badge on the car, but his company made it, and just used FIAT as a major component supplier, just as they do now with a lot of their modern cars.
If we were to agree with your argument and take it to the end, then we would have to close this site ... as WE are FERRARI enthusiasts and thus we all get something out of the name and history. I do not even own a Ferrari, so as I cannot drive one to work everyday ... does that remove my right of being a Ferrari supported because I support the name not the car.
Even Jim's P4 while an awesome car, take the Ferrari badge off and you have just another race car special of which there are thousands. Some even were successful. Next time you open a car magazine look at the classifieds and see how many hundreds of ads there are for OLD racing cars. The ones without the prestigeous names DO NOT sell (or atleast for the same prices), even if they have won races.
Thus when you enthuse about Ferraris, or are lucky enough to buy one you are not just buying a car, you are becoming part of a special heritage to car enthusiasts ... so yes the car has to be good, but buying into this is actually more. And Enzo knew this and that is how he made racing and winning his strongest marketing tool.
IMO using his sons name was a bad marketing move, but I think, like most Dads, he did this because he intended his son Dino to take over his firm. And this looked like it was going to happen because from what I have read Dino was very, very interested in his company and was learning all the right things and would have been a good successor, but he died. Thus as a sentimental thing he branded the 246 a Dino, and thus (probably) with a tear in his eyes he had created that successor and homage to his son. Nothing more, nothing less. It did not work because nobody else thought about his son like his father did, and could see the love of engineering that he apparently had. Marketing has no place for such sentiment ... but the Italians do not know this and have just recently made another balls up with naming their latest road rocket the 'Enzo Ferrari'. What is the next one going to be called 'Enzo 2', or just a number ... and thus all of a sudden the best road car is no longer the 'Enzo Ferrari' and thus are they insulting their creator???. Stupid sentimental stuff ...
Frank, give it up. There is nothing wrong with all Ferrari enthusiasts admitting that part of them bought the car because it simply is a Ferrari, and that goes for 246 Dino owners too.
Pete |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 693
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 6:24 pm: | |
Frank,
quote:I understand what you're saying but Aston, Porsche, Lambo, McLaren and many other companies are able to sell $250k+ cars without a Ferrari badge
And it those cases you are buying:
* Aston - many years history and Le Mans win, and sportscar championship, etc. Otherwise a medicore car that struggles to the next service ...
* Porsche - as good a history as Ferrari, and thus a worthy badge. No need to say anymore.
* Lambo - hmmm, difficult this one, but their reputation of wild exotics appeal to some.
* McLaren - Let me see, many F1 world championships, and car produced at the peak of McLaren steam rolling the F1 world. Probably the best car ever made and with a F1 multi-world championship winner as the maker. Yep that sounds like a good brand to me.
In the end Frank, brands are what the modern world is all about. Look at shoes for example. Nike, Reboks all make the same level of shoe as the rest but the sell at much higher prices due to their brand recognition, prestige, etc. Same with clothes.
Look at Lexus and how we all (hopefully, unless you are a moron) know that Toyota make the car, but they had to great another brand to market that car as EVERYBODY sees Toyota as a normal, practical, non-prestige car manufacturer.
Thus in the end the Ferrari brand is the most important thing that FIAT own, not the cars. FIAT and Ferrari know this and this is why you now see Ferrari brand everywhere ... museums, exibitions centres, etc. all selling the brand to sell the cars. Thus market the brand comes first.
Thus the Dino level IMO would not work, as it did not work in the 60's, because it would have to be marketed from ground one ... and this would cost a fortune and it would be far cheaper to just put a Ferrari badge on the car.
It looks like what FIAT are going to do, is put an Alfa Romeo badge on the cheap Ferrari models anyway ... and this (while I am not 100% happy with this) makes sense as Alfa Romeo already has the right image and brand recognition and thus is a way of Ferrari selling cheaper cars, with out harming the Ferrari brand.
Pete |
Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member
Username: Hardtop
Post Number: 633
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 5:03 pm: | |
I once asked the local Fcar store OWNER what the deal was with the bottom falling out of 550 prices. As he surveyed several examples languishing in the showroom, he said "I think the 360 is killing it. They are much more high tech and exotic." "Are 550 owners trading 550's for 360's?" I asked. "Yes they are."
I won't argue which car is better, because, frankly, I don't know. But facts is facts and evidently Fcar buyers with 150K in their pockets are opting for used 360's over used 550's. Considering there are a lot more 360's, I find this especially surprising.
Dave |
David Stoeppelwerth (Racerdj)
Member
Username: Racerdj
Post Number: 318
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 4:39 pm: | |
James, your right on with your comments about the 360. I enjoy your story of the drive. |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 2004
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 3:29 pm: | |
Tino
Best |
Tino (Bboxer)
Member
Username: Bboxer
Post Number: 312
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 3:12 pm: | |
James, sorry I misread you. I get your point. (we,360 owners, tend to be on the defensive these days.) |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 2001
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:52 pm: | |
Tino
Because once they drive them they wish they could go on driving them forever on great roads? Thats the reason great cars are great, not because their numbers look good in mags. If when you park them they still call out to you to be driven that's what makes them great.
Frank
I do agree that paying over MSRP for any production car is a $ mistake. Your point about 1.5 million F-40's is all too true. |
Tino (Bboxer)
Member
Username: Bboxer
Post Number: 311
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
James, "That's why people buy 360's" !
Richard, thanks, we'll have it corrected. BTW, www.tubistyleusa.com is finally on line after months of promise. check it out. |
Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member
Username: Lomotpk
Post Number: 12
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:30 pm: | |
Tino, the link to "corporate website at www. tubistyle.it" in your webpage is broken.
you have it going to tubstyle.it, you are missing the "i".
Oh, and James forgot to end his little story with: "...and then you wake up under a tent and look at the 360 poster on your bedroom wall."
|
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 2000
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:29 pm: | |
Frank
I doubt it.
Tino
What's insuling about liking Elvis or 360's? |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2686
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:19 pm: | |
Unfortunately, a lot of folks who leased/financed their 360 and/or paid over MSRP end up having to unscrew a bottle of Ripple while their date grill hotdogs in his cousin's camper. |
Tino (Bboxer)
Member
Username: Bboxer
Post Number: 310
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 2:14 pm: | |
James, that was down right insulting.
|
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 1998
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 1:44 pm: | |
Numbers? Who cares. It's like Elvis there are 2 ways to look at him.
1. By the numbers. He weighed too much. He popped to many pills. He gave himself too many enimas.
or
2. The son of a bit ch could really sing.
It's the same with the 360. Many are still
willing to pay over list for it.
Why?
Because after winding through the back roads, in your 360, with the top down,to San Tropez with your honey, you pull into Club 55 and Robert smiles, hands you the keys to your bungilow, uncorks the Crystal, and puts the lobster on the grill and your honey gives you that certian look.
You can still feel the wind and the sun as you turn away from that red beauty wishing you'd driven a little longer before stopping.
That's why people buy 360's... |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 1386
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 1:15 pm: | |
Why would Ferrari "downmarket" a car that's been winning races and championship titles for them? I'd think Ferrari like their name figure prominently on race winners. It makes as much sense as rebranding 911s as VWs. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2684
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 1:14 pm: | |
Willis, I do not "rail" against the 360. The performance/handling issue is a fact based on both magazine tests as well as Ferrari's own spec data. The only thing I have ever said that I don't like about the 360 is the front end. I think the top, sides, back and especially the bottom looks good. I also love the way it sounds. So why is it that if I speak facts on its performance/handling and indicate I don't like its front end that I am railing on it, whatever that means ? |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 1385
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 1:01 pm: | |
Frank, why do you continue to rail against the 360? What do you have against it? |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 12:56 pm: | |
Lomotpk,
That's hilarious!
Frank,
The costs of rebranding are exorbitant. It would not be a feasible choice. I have had many clients who were thinking (with examples set by Lexus et al) rebranding existing products is the right way to go. It usually is not. Especially if you start to appeal "downmarket". That's what Ferrari is using Maserati for. To appeal to the masses. To pump out the 4 doors and the SUVs.
Cheers |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2683
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 12:56 pm: | |
Brian,those "most people" you must be referring to are not "car nuts" and should buy a Honda anyway. Most of the people I know that are car enthusiast do know that the Dino is a brand name and not a model. People that don't aren't likely customers to buy one anyway. I guess I should feel good about being in the same camp as people like Enzo Ferrari who I believe also knew that the Dino name was a brand name. That's right, he created the name now didn't he ? And while the 360 is a sports car, it is clearly not an "elite" one. Look it up, elite means superior and there are a gagle of cars out there that are faster and handle better than the 360 at a fraction of the price. So elite is hardly a description of the 360. Expessive, yes, elite, no. And, while the 456, 550/575 models are "great" , they are GT cars not sports cars. |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 1384
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 12:44 pm: | |
I think Brian's right about the Dino. |
Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member
Username: Kennedy
Post Number: 356
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 10:22 am: | |
Back to the real question here...
I personally think the 360 is just fine relative to the competition (witness the waiting list). No need to hurry some new replacement out. Rather, focus on debugging the design, improving reliability, and reducing costs. Minor updates to keep it interesting... a 7 speed tranny would be good (both F1 and stick)... minor horsepower boosts (like the Stradale got).
I'd like to see a 5-seat, 4-door version of the convertible Maserati. An M5 beater.
I'd like to see a 4-seat convertible Ferrari to replace the 456... one designed to be a viable competitor to the 911 Cab.
I think that's where the sales opportunity for Ferrari is. After they get those done, then it might be time for a 360 replacement... but something like the 308 to 328 replacement. You shouldn't stray too far from an almost perfect car (okay, I really like the 360).
|
Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member
Username: Kennedy
Post Number: 355
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 10:14 am: | |
Because the 246 is an awesome car AND most people think of the "Dino" name as a model name, not a marque name. Like "Modena", "Stradale", "Daytona", etc. Many will say "my Ferrari 246 Dino"... and nobody but you will debate it with them.
I think your Marketing idea is lame. Ferrari should keep the name Ferrari synonymous with elite sportscars, like the 360. If they build a smaller, lighter, 300HP V6... if it looks and drives like a great sportscar, it should be a Ferrari. If they build a luxury sedan, it should be a Maserati. Two great names... reinforce their identities as much as possible. Taking half the great sportscars and calling them Dino's would be silly... diluting both names. Now if they go and build an SUV, badge it Fiat!
|
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2676
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 8:50 am: | |
Mark, if no one likes the Dino name why does 206s and 246s sell for so much more than 308s, 328s and some 348s yet they cost so much less than those Ferrari badged cars when new ? As for me, I would love to own a Dino if I could find one priced right. And, I am not so stupid that I would not buy a car just because of the badging. Anyone would would drive a 360, like it and then not buy it because it was badged a Dino doesn't deserve the car anyway IMHO. Such people are not enthusiast and need to stick to Cadillacs or something. Again, for such a Alfa, Dino, Maserati and Ferrari line up to work, the Dino cars would have to cost much less that the V12 powered Ferrari badged cars. I agree that if the Dino line cost as much as the current 360, it would be a tough sell. But a V8 Dino at $75k would sell like hotcakes ! |
Mark (Study)
Member
Username: Study
Post Number: 552
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 8:42 am: | |
Frank- How many people can you find on F-chat that would buy a Dino over a Ferrari? Lets do a taste test?
Guys Ferrari is coming out with a V-8 $180k car.
How many of you would rather buy it as a Dino? Instead of a Ferrari? Anyone? .........
I don't want to hear about Ferrari buying other companies or putting other makes and models together. Or making cheaper cars. Its just day-dreaming, and it takes away from the bare facts that naming any of the small over-all production cars rolling out of the Ferrari factory a Dino is a dumb idea.
Frank I want to hold your feet to the fire once-and-for-all on this. We have pushed you to the edge of a cliff on the idea of renaming cars Dinos and now I want you to admit that no one likes the Dino name as much as the Ferrari name? Your argument keeps getting weaker and weaker..looks like you are reaching for wiggle room as more people call you on this?
|
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2671
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 8:10 am: | |
PSK, I understand what you're saying but Aston, Porsche, Lambo, McLaren and many other companies are able to sell $250k+ cars without a Ferrari badge. If Ferrari would build a decent product it too could sell an Alfa V6 roadster for less than $35k, Dino V8 sports car for less than $75k, a Maserati lux GT for less than $100k and a Ferrari line of V10s and V12s from $150k and up. Just MHO. |
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