| Author | Message | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 854 Registered: 4-2002 |
"I still dont fully comprehend the whole concours thing." I don't understand either: However, I do show up to the track in a car that could be entered in a concours event, then run the snot out of it. It seems to like it that way. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2732 Registered: 2-2001 |
LOL Martin, have you got any good track dates for this fall ? | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 345 Registered: 5-2003 |
Just a note... Many engines do get stronger as the break in occurs. So a driven car can have more HP than a low mileage one of the same model. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5083 Registered: 5-2001 |
William, your car has deminished value. A pee stain on the passenger seat from the last time I drove with you. Thank god my overall is yellow  | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2728 Registered: 2-2001 |
1 of my mechanics said that my 512TR was the sweetest driving TR he had ever seen. She has 40k on the odo & close to 10k of those are redline track driving She loves to run | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
Junior Member Username: Billh Post Number: 59 Registered: 5-2002 |
I was at Watkins Glen a few years back and amongst all the ferraris there was an 86TR like mine that happened to be in the same spot the entire weekend. it had 4k on the clock. boy was it mint. I asked one of the guys from a dealership and they said it seized a front wheeel bearing on the track. it has to get hauled back from whence it came. doh! | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 533 Registered: 4-2002 |
Said in good humor... Concours are for those who can't drive ;-) Enjoy THE DRIVE, Steven R. Rochlin | ||
| Mark Moon (Enzomoon)
Junior Member Username: Enzomoon Post Number: 147 Registered: 4-2002 |
William: I agree wholeheartedly. The thing about Fcars is that they seem to run stronger and remain more reliable overall if they are driven regularly and hard. I was in Atlanta last weekend visiting a good friend with 1992 512TR. We had an impromptu comparison of speed between his car(sans cat/Tubi) and my 550. I couldn't pass him! I would swear that his car gets stronger the more miles he puts on it(about 30k so far). I don't understand the interest in Concours either. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2725 Registered: 2-2001 |
I never changed my attitude I always bought my Ferraris so I could drive the H out of them on the race track I still dont fully comprehend the whole concours thing. Its a lot more fun to drive the H out of your car than sit around a car show in the sun for hours | ||
| michaelthuber (Mikehuber)
Junior Member Username: Mikehuber Post Number: 79 Registered: 3-2003 |
There is the possibility their first exposure to Ferrari may have an affect on why newcomers value low milage cars. My point is many people see their first Ferrari up close in a car show situation. Most of the show cars are just that, cars people would rather show than drive. If you see an early 80's F-whatever that has 15K mileage, you assume that all cars-of-value must have a similar mileage. Add to that the fact that any F-cars they see on the road are more-than-likely in pristine condition and without the benefit of seeing the odometer they just look like low mileage cars. When was the last time you saw a Ferrari running around with faded paint, dents here and there, torn ragtop flapping in the breeze, like you see with other marques, even some Porsches, Corvettes, and the like? In fact the major concern I had when I bought my 85 Mondial Cab was that it had 56K on it. That translates to 3K/year, and still I thought it should be lower, based on various sources of information I had, like shows, Hemmings adds, the Barret-Jackson televised Auction, etc. It was only since I joined F-chat that I realized there are lots of owners that actually enjoy DRIVING their cars. That was my intention all along. Will my attitude cause the "investment value" of my car to spiral downward? Who cares? I hope to have a very high mileage car when they bury me in it. | ||
| Kuzi (Kzma)
Member Username: Kzma Post Number: 253 Registered: 3-2003 |
Everything that has been said is all well and good.....and well intentioned. But the reality is that most people who are in the market for a pre-owned Ferrari want a low mileage example. I think it is just a psychological barrier that keeps them from seeing the true pros and cons. I have to admit that until I started hanging around this site, I was in that camp. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1405 Registered: 12-2001 |
Jim: you are the exception. How many owners of Gt-40 race cars (real ones with history) drive them to the local deli? (Sorry, gourmet shop). | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 1964 Registered: 10-2002 |
Having driven my 275GTB 60,000 miles, my 308 85,000 and my TR 115,000 I prefer to drive them rather than polish them. However a lot depends on exposure to road salt. After 115,000 and NY roads my TR needed more work than made $ sense to me. I traded it back to my dealer and drove off with my new daily driver my Maser coupe. (They gave me 23k for my TR which considering the chassis rust I considered fair.) | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5832 Registered: 8-2002 |
I would take a well documented 70k miles car then a low milage garage queen anyday. remember the service intervals? Majors are 30,000 miles OR 3 years. Enjoy the miles and pay for the service or let it sit and pay for the service. it's a loose, loose situation when you hope you are going to make money on a ferrari. | ||
| Dave White (Dwhite)
New member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2003 |
JMO Low miles = BS I have seen too many with all the signs of high miles and they show the standard 27,500 on the odometer. I don't give a s--- if a car has 15K or 50K and both are 10+ years old. You better believe suspension bushings are going to have to be replaceed if you want the car to feel the way it should. Low miles mean big bills down the road . . . I have had this experience with low miles cars - thankfully not an fcar. Look at the service recomendations and figure what needs to be done besides the 15K or 30k service I mean the other service. These are performance autos which need to be serviced to perform at their optimum level. I have 3 cars and each one is the best it can be. I have said it again and again on this site I really feel for these cars it is all about condition, condition, condition. Not miles, miles, miles. Let the flames blaze away. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 344 Registered: 5-2003 |
GAry.. thats the point.. With more and more higher mileage cars turning up they can't all go down in value. A maintained 328 with 50k miles can't be priced half as much as a 25K miles one if they are both the same year. And more and more cars are being driven. Now that some are on their 3rd or 4th owners the miles are creeping in. Something has to give. I am seeing TR's and 348's with mileage that a few years ago would have made them low value cars.. yet they are fetching the same dollars. | ||
| gary green (Minuke)
New member Username: Minuke Post Number: 4 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ask any Ferrari dealer, value is determined by mileage. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 728 Registered: 4-2002 |
ooo there goes that old greeneyed monster again | ||
| Ryan550 (Ryanab)
Member Username: Ryanab Post Number: 407 Registered: 3-2002 |
Whilst on a brief tour through my old 'hood in Calgary this afternoon I came across a fellow owner who I dont know personally, but his truly sad and unfortunate attitude sure came though.. He was bringing in one of his 12 or so sport bikes on a ramp into the house and as soon as I asked him (politley) if that was his cars in the gararge (6 cars, 3 car door) he nodded and proceeded to close the doors and SLAM the front door. Nice Guy! The real sad part was that he had an '03 CL55, white 90's Diablo SV, a rossa 512 or 355 and 3 other gems which were covered on one of two lifts. Keep in mind NEVER seen any of these cars or heard about them..Wasting away under the covers of a dark garage never being driven... More money than passion if you ask me. Ryan | ||
| Vince (Manatee)
Member Username: Manatee Post Number: 256 Registered: 6-2002 |
Vincent - I just don't feel safe leaving the car in a mall-type parking lot around a bunch of non-carguys, if you know what I mean. Frank, as much as I like Bo, I don't want to give him any unexpected business. He's going to have a "shop day" soon. Are you interested in going? Yasir, Bo's phone # is 770-939-6982. He runs the best body shop in Atlanta. Actually one of the best in the country. He gets business from all over the Southeast. | ||
| yasir saifullah (Yasir)
New member Username: Yasir Post Number: 32 Registered: 7-2002 |
Frank, Where is " Bo's" body shop as i may need him in the future,tele # be great. Thanks. Later, Yasir | ||
| martin j weiner,M.D. (Mw575)
Intermediate Member Username: Mw575 Post Number: 1073 Registered: 5-2001 |
And furthermore I get palpitations when I go over 40mph! | ||
| martin j weiner,M.D. (Mw575)
Intermediate Member Username: Mw575 Post Number: 1072 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks for the support,Kuzi. Matt--ooooops --"The Don"--is under the impression that I was trying to catch his 307.5 as Faye was screaming "slow down , he's crazy!" | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2631 Registered: 9-2001 |
Vince, buy insurance. If it gets damage, which is highly unlikely, Bo can repair it better than new. | ||
| Augustine J. Staino (Azzuro328)
Junior Member Username: Azzuro328 Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2003 |
I've put over 3,000 miles on my car since Easter Sunday. I originally bought it thinking that I would drive it for the summer and unload it in the fall but I love it too much. To be honest, I don't really care anymore when or if I sell it and how many miles I accumulate. I'm having way too much fun! | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 773 Registered: 4-2003 |
Vince, Sorry to hear that you can't comfortably park your car and leave it unattended for a while. Have you had some bad experiences? Vincent. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 343 Registered: 5-2003 |
All I can add is this... My first Fcar had average miles for it's age. My Mondial had low miles ( 86 with 25K in 2000) and within the first month I was spending over $1500 to replace the fuel distributor and injectors due to the internal seals falling apart from non use. The dealer used then same old line (but it's the truth).. There are always more problems with cars that sit. Now my wife drives it everyday and we have had zero problems ( other than a few minor electrical) and it runs like a champ.I would not hesitate to buy a higher mileage but well maintained car with records. | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5765 Registered: 8-2002 |
Martin, Check the So Cal section under the Vegas update thread. Matt | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5040 Registered: 5-2001 |
...after all we are looking for maintained cars not miles cars, aren't we? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5039 Registered: 5-2001 |
10-4. That is what a 328 should have in my book. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 341 Registered: 5-2003 |
Martin.. I meant a 60K mileage.. not price. My mistake for wording. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5036 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jeffrey, I do not think you will see any 328s being in the 60s due to low miles vs the same year 328 in high miles. The gap between same cars for miles is not higher than 25% on all cars. The times of the low miles 328 for $60K are over! For that you can buy a better car today than the 328 ever was. | ||
| Vince (Manatee)
Junior Member Username: Manatee Post Number: 249 Registered: 6-2002 |
I might drive my car more if I felt better about leaving it unattended in public parking places. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 529 Registered: 6-2002 |
I can attest that Vincent's car looks *stunning* and I was floored when I found out how many miles were on it. It dosen't look like it has 5k. Vincent drives it, and babies it. IMO the perfect way to treat a ferrari! Life is just too short to be any other way! Hey, who knows, maybe we'll see 30k services actually being performed at 30k (instead of every few years with just 2k or so miles acumulated Best! Ben. | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 769 Registered: 4-2003 |
It seems to me that there is a choice. Most of us can drive one of two cars to the grocery store, restaurant, gym etc. why shouldn't that car be a Ferrari. The road to town from my house is a lot of fun and long enough to bring all the temps up for a even more fun. There are much better investments (second homes) Ferraris are for pleasure, and the grocery run has never been more fun. I can understand why higher mileage cars are less desireable, but higher mileage cars actually run, and run well! "Enjoy the Drive" SR Vincent. | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5754 Registered: 8-2002 |
Kuzi, That may be true but he could not keep up with me. He had plenty of time to memorize my licence plate. Matt | ||
| Kuzi (Kzma)
Member Username: Kzma Post Number: 251 Registered: 3-2003 |
Matt I can say from experience that very few were at 40mph........The good Dr. is a speed demon! Right Marty? | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5748 Registered: 8-2002 |
Martin, How many were about 40 Mph? Matty | ||
| martin j weiner,M.D. (Mw575)
Intermediate Member Username: Mw575 Post Number: 1070 Registered: 5-2001 |
Have put on 3000 miles in less than 2 mo on the 575. Life is short----drive 'em-drive em !!!! | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1001 Registered: 1-2002 |
I think owners have finally begun to believe that if you drive your car, the less you'll end up spending on redundant repairs. | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 172 Registered: 9-2002 |
I agree with you Matt, I guess the Pimp factor is worth puting up with the BS! | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5745 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jeff, I think people buy Ferrari for the name and history and emotion. Ferrari's are not the best made or the highest quality you can get for your money> Matt | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5744 Registered: 8-2002 |
Henry, I so agree!! Matt | ||
| Jeff (Jeff_m)
Junior Member Username: Jeff_m Post Number: 171 Registered: 9-2002 |
I am wondering if Ferrari buyers are going to demand more for their dollar performance wise or if they are going to be content buying the name. At one time, Ferraris outperformed all the lower priced competition, but not today. I still am fairly new to Ferrari(on my first one about a year now)but I must say that I see myself taking my SL over the 355 many times because I don't have time to warm up the car, or I don't feel like baking in the heat that pours into the car from the engine.If the sl55 looked different than the regular sl500's that are a dime a dozen around DC I would seriousy consider the change. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 893 Registered: 8-2001 |
The Don: GOOD for you! I average about 5,000miles per year, per Ferrari, and am enjoying every mile. I can't wait to see those "low mileage" owners cringe, as the value of there cars go down, without even enjoying them. You and I are wrecking it for those low mileage owners......I could care less!!!!!!! | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1402 Registered: 12-2001 |
The place i think its most telling is in the mileage of 360s, which are relatively new cars. Even infrequently driven cars, by any other standard, will start to accumulate some mileage after X owners and 15 years. But, given some of the mileage i've seen listed on 360 coupes, it does seem like people are driving them more. | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5740 Registered: 8-2002 |
I average 15-20k a year on the 308. the 250 is averaging about 400 per month. they are cars. they were built (i think) to drive. GT4's however were built to rust (sorry Han's) | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 890 Registered: 8-2001 |
As there will be more owners who drive their cars and rack up the miles, there will be lower prices for the cars. This will also reflect on lowering the price on the "low" mileage examples. The disparity in prices will be too great to support the money being asked for the low mileage cars. Those with low mileage cars will loose the MOST!!!!!! To me, NO Ferrari is and investment at this time. The only exception would be the original owner of the Enzo, who could sell it now for a profit. But the new buyer will NOT see an investment......he will LOOSE!!!!!!! These are the times to just drive, and enjoy the car. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 509 Registered: 5-2002 |
We may see a lot of Fcars coming up for sale due to the fact that owners can't keep up with the 30k services. We may also see a lot of neglected Fcars come into the market also. | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 340 Registered: 5-2003 |
IT seems that since the craze of the 80-90's when we were seeing nothing but low mileage cars there has been a huge change. I have been noting dozens of 328's, TR's and a few 348's with real life mileage. More and more owners are treating their F cars like CARS and less like investments. I can only wonder how this will alter the market values in the next few years. HIgher production numbers(vs the 50's,60's and 70's) and a mix of production cars( 348,355,360) and much rarer specials ( Enzo,F40,F50)should cause a real shake up. After all, if most owners actually drive their cars then the value will have to be adjusted to match the Market..... such as a 60K 328 not losing any value due to milage. |