| Author | Message | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 425 Registered: 3-2002 |
Alot of people who worked for their money are certainly going to usually offer less than what someone is asking. Martin said his car was a bargain. Should you not see if a seller is willing to take less ? It is always prudent to offer less when their may be some room to give. Well if someone got offended that is tuff. That is business. Every situation is different: GT4 12 owners with spotty rust and purple paint. GTO Racing Pedigree, documentation, with former owners around the world representing the Who's who of collectors and estates. GT4 12,500 firm GTO Zillion dollars firm or trade for art. Each sitution in my opinion requires the serious buyer to make a lower legitimate reasonable offer. This is just business (for enthusiasts) in obtaining an addition to their hobby. But I agree that there is no point in advertising the car for a super low price where their is no room for negotiating. I would "assume" most buyers would like to go away happy with the fact that the seller gave them something. Nothing wrong in asking. What is the worst thing that can happen ? They ask you to leave. I have been thrown out of better places than a dealership. Business is business. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4122 Registered: 9-2001 |
"...old profesionals get set in their ways and don't always get along with everyone... " LMAO  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1923 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>yeah, I'll let people give me extra money if it makes them feel better >> Tom, strangely enough it does...and now that Martin has a Boxer listed at $95..I'm obligated to raise the price on mine or it will be considered some kind of trick or car with hidden issues...it's some bizzare Ferrari buyers thinking inigma at work. Martin, definately raise the price..inline with, maybe just below fantasy money...and almost never offer to back off which in Bizzaro Thinking means there is something hidden somewhere. ;-) Frank, I'd start using Gorley if I was you. Or just drive it by and let him inspect your Boxer while you're getting a feel for him and whether you two can get along...old profesionals get set in their ways and don't always get along with everyone... ;-) | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5096 Registered: 5-2001 |
JRV, you may be right here. Maybe I should price my cars differently. Had someone come to check the 355CH and everything was okay and the "wrongs" on the car were disclose prior him coming down. After the car checks out okay, and the car drove okay, and there was really noting to say bad about the car I got an offer for $ 55K for a car we are asking $ 69,000, which is the least expensive 355CH in the US and I feel it was because we were not asking enough. I should re-list the car at $ 79,000 and entertain offers at $ 70K I guess. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4121 Registered: 9-2001 |
yeah, I'll let people give me extra money if it makes them feel better  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1921 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>damned if you do and damned if you don't sounds like a dicussion we should have over some beers in california<< Tom, and directly related to pricing also. Like Martin says, people generally assume the worst, so when selling Ferraris at least, any price on a car around normal retail (or any attemptsto discount, even slightly) means to most it's not the car for them, they want the truly nice car for $95K (for example) because the absolutely Pristine car for $85K must a trick with hidden issues...a physcological thriller with every phone call... ;-) | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5092 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ralph, I think Tino's Boxer ended up at some Palm beach dealer on US 1. Don't know if they sold it already. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5091 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom I am buying...how is friday night at House of Blues? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5090 Registered: 5-2001 |
As for all the other comments: as I said I represent as I have seen the car. The car was brought up to Miami for a detail, which was not done when I saw the car. The scratch is possibly buffed out by now but it was there when I saw it. rather overstate what is wrong than give you a false impression on condition and see you come here and be disappointed. Well, that is just my way of doing business! As for the control switch plates, I told the owner and he is looking into where he can get those. They are hard to find as you may know but he is looking into it right now and have them replaced as well. Again, I tell you what is there when I see the car not what I hope an owner does on my recommendation. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4120 Registered: 9-2001 |
damned if you do and damned if you don't sounds like a dicussion we should have over some beers in california | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5089 Registered: 5-2001 |
Henryk, your comment: ""...minor things wrong with the car..." If they are so minor, why weren't they fixed? BTW: What is your interpretation of "minor"? I'll bet there are a LOT of those minor things wrong" See I represent the car in its true fashion. No "this is a perfect car, nothing wrong with it" type of representations. Yet, you are thinking that if I disclose that there must be a lot more wrong with it. With that said, that is the reason why people over embellish their cars since apparently you expect that there is something wrong with them anyway. ...and then you get ranting off on those people that did say their cars were perfect and they were not. I don't get it! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2672 Registered: 9-2001 |
FYI, in response to the FC e-mail that I could not respond to for some reason, you can reach Eddie Karam at 610.659.1983 . | ||
| Edward (Edward_96gts)
Junior Member Username: Edward_96gts Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2002 |
Good info everyone-thank you. Were there any significant changes between a 1982 and 1984 boxer? TIA | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 419 Registered: 3-2002 |
One more time "without" being a pest. Anyone know where Tino's 1981 BB "Weber" Red and creme with red inserts and red carpets is located in Florida ? Tino does not know which dealer it is listed with. It is not a factory authorized dealer. Thanks | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2670 Registered: 9-2001 |
Peter & WHart, I bought a 400GT 5 speed and traded a TR for a 330GTC(sight unseen) from Eddis Karam. He is a great fellow. I recently bought an extra parking light for my Boxer as a spare from Eddie as they are no longer available from anyone. And JRV, who in the Atlanta area would you recommend to work on a Boxer? While I have been using FOA, I do know of a Mike Gurley at Continnental Coachworks who has a great reputation for working on older Ferrrais including the Boxer. In fact, he will not work on any Ferrari newer than a Boxer. He also maintains a few BB512LMs for customers who track them. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1412 Registered: 12-2001 |
Peter: i sold that car after a year, bought a 550. Oh, well. Might just buy another one, though, ya never know. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1916 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, another thing came to mind about how beaters are created. Once a Boxer falls into the hands of shoddy or incapable mechanics or even decent mechanics that don't know Boxers, the car is history. Just like anything rare, complicated, expensive, once non-masters start trying to learn the game at some owners expense the overall condition and quality goes downhill fast, even though the prices paid may be high. An inexperienced guy can easily spend 10 hours at the owners expense simply 'tweeking' a Boxers tune, while an expert could do a better job that's done right in 2 hours. These cars do not take to inexperienced wrenches or owners well. I've seen plenty of bills for $10K or more and the owner & car had little or nothing to show for it, by letting the wrong people under the hood, when the right people could have done wonders for less money. As Pete Said: Just as owning them is "for men" so is working on them. | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 82 Registered: 11-2002 |
wm hart, i know your car. it was actually eddie's "keeper" and you are correct...it is as new. as good as mine is , yours is what i think may be the best one in the usa. i bought my other ferrari from eddie sight unseen because while eddie is a car salesman, he also (like us) loves these cars. eddie always seems to come up w/ great cars and he really is a boxer guy. you have got a great car! his 246 chairs and flairs is nice as well. a question...do we know how many boxer owners there are in ferrarichat? can we find out? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1411 Registered: 12-2001 |
The boxer is probably the only ferrari i regret selling and i'd buy another one in a minute. Mine was a true queen with known history from the beginning, and i spent what was necessary for the engine and related stuff (water pump, etc), hoses, shocks, tires, to be done properly. The car was a dream to drive, although it was a bit hot inside. It was also gorgeous, in motion or parked, especially with front and back jacknifed open to display that massive engine, and the low front snout. I agree with all those who have said that it is worth buying the best car possible; as to monkey business with certifications, mileage, etc., that just goes back to dealing with people you trust who are themselves picky. (My car was in Eddie Karem's "stash" and i worked on him for a year to sell it to me). In some ways, the testarossa may have improved the car, but i like it better in its earlier form, aesthetically and certainly, as far as the interior goes. As to being twitchy at the limit, you've got to be going pretty ••••••• fast, and if you know how to drive it, in relaxed fashion, and go in a little slower, you can cannonball out of curves with suprising force. It is also a car that grows smaller around you once you get used to driving it; the high center of gravity and antediluvian tires just make it more challenging to drive. As to where the market is going, these cars' prices have been depressed since i've been seriously following ferrari. Given how cheap later cars are now ( testarossas and Maranellos), these cars are certainly holding their own. (I think i paid about 85k 4 years ago for mine, which was a late 83, circa 48xxx production number). | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1913 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>As a car nut I just don't understand how an owner can let his Boxer get so bad that it turns into a "beater".<< Frank, I agree with you, however, the deal is, Ferrari owners reflect an entire cross section of personality types, with only about half or less being car nuts. I've met more than my fair share of complete idiots that owned a Ferrari or a few and could care less what was in the best interest of the car to maintain it's condition. | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 81 Registered: 11-2002 |
this has turned out to be an interesting thread. frank i could not agree more. i too wonder when a boxer becomes "just a car". i have since childhood held these cars in the highest regard and have always coveted mine (probably to the extent of excess...still that is my burden to bare). i wonder how many have purchased these cars unaware that they can get very, very expensive in a hurry! these are big boy cars (person) and should not become alluring just because the price of admission seems cheap. the real value in a boxer is to me however, owning one of the last real raw ferraris and knowing that you are always walking on the edge of a big dollar repair!! seems to make it seem more dangerous. a related story. a friend of mine had bragged to me of the steal he had gotten on a perfect aston martin lagonda. cool car yes...but his good deal became less and less apparent, and it became more and more apparent as to why these were cars of kings! big bux to maintain! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2666 Registered: 9-2001 |
As a car nut I just don't understand how an owner can let his Boxer get so bad that it turns into a "beater". But, I know it happens because I have seen them. I suspect it is the result of an owner that can afford to finance/lease the car, but can't afford to maintain it. That's why you must be sure you can afford a Ferrari before you buy. As I have posted before, if you have to finance a toy such as a Ferrari, you can't afford it. I understand that sounds harsh and that would prevent a lot of people from ever owning a Ferrari, but life's a bear. Study hard, work hard, save/invest well and then buy your toys. Otherwise you too may end up owning a "beater". | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4113 Registered: 9-2001 |
problem is people said in the 80s prices will continue to rise - now there wishing for a 300k boxer, hey your guess is as good as mine, but as you have said in other threads we can only deal in present reality | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1912 Registered: 11-2002 |
Tom, >>I remember about a year or so ago you were kind enough to spend a few minutes on the phone telling me about it. << I'm being kind right here, right now letting serious Boxer Buyers know that the prices are moving up. The lady wanted $85K for the AJ Foyt car 2 yrs ago and 1 yr ago and she still wants $85...I can't tell you how many offers she has turned down. For her particular Boxer the market hasn't caught up yet, but for pristine examples $85K is the real money. Beaters aren't even selling at $65 any more as far as I'm aware. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4111 Registered: 9-2001 |
I remember about a year or so ago you were kind enough to spend a few minutes on the phone telling me about it. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1911 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>JRV, is yours the one previously owned by AJ foyt??<< Actualy I have "2" Boxers for sale for clients, one does happen to be the AJ Foyt car but that is not the one I've been talking about, I posted a link with plenty of pics of the car, I've been reffering to BRAND NEW NO EXCUSES. And if the guy wanted less than $85 I'd reccomend he be commited to an insane asylum. | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 80 Registered: 11-2002 |
i will concede to my friend jrv...buy a 65k boxer and try to get it correct and you will easily be 90k+. the story goes...buy the best car now and you will pay less later. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4108 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, is yours the one previously owned by AJ foyt?? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1910 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>i have looked at many boxers and low mileage cars should look new and not ragged...period << I have one, They Do look almost Brand New if they really are, sitting does not wear them out. Boxers are worth every bit of what a Daytona is worth. Trying to poor mouth the rising prices is unlikely to result in Boxers priced as low as they were 2 yrs ago. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2664 Registered: 9-2001 |
I agree with Peter. As an owner of a Boxer I too hope the value is going up rather than down. And, I looked at several Boxers when I was searching for one to buy that were advertised as "like new" with low miles and turned out to be tattered and torn. That is one of the very reasons that I question the so called low miles on some of these cars being advertised for sale. caveat emptor | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2002 |
you know tom, all that wear on that car may have come from people looking at and sitting in the car. the seat bolsters may have recieved wear in that fashion...just a thought! the car gets worn out in the showroom? lol. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 902 Registered: 8-2001 |
Regarding Martin's Boxer for sale: This is a JOKE!!!! A Boxer for $95,000 with: "...minor things wrong with the car..." If they are so minor, why weren't they fixed? BTW: What is your interpretation of "minor"? I'll bet there are a LOT of those minor things wrong. "...buttons show use but can be easily exchanged.." Easily enough for the owner NOT to do it? "...scratch...can be buffed.." Seems very minor. Again, why wasn't it done? I don't believe in a car that needs "minor" repairs, and yet the owner is asking TOP dollar for it. It is not like he was trying to sell a $10K car. Hell, for $95,000 the owner should make sure that this car is PERFECT, especially when the seller refers to terms like "minor" fixes, and "easily" repaired. There is absolutely NO REASON that these items should not have been taken care of BEFORE he tries to sell it. Last year I bought an 83 BBi that had NONE of the above, for MUCH less than $95K.....actually greater that $15K less. Keep dreaming. Must be one of L.'s friends!!!! | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4106 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think I also look at that car in atlanta, said it was musuem piece but then said it had this and that problem | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2002 |
i have an immaculate bbi and i would love to believe that there is stupid money out there paying $90k + on these cars. i however think tom is correct and would also love to hear of a "real" $90k+ sale. Regarding mileage, i hope that a well maintained boxer will be valuable regardless of actual mileage. which is to say that i hope that w/ smaller production numbers, i hope that mileage becomes less important as the years pass. regarding 20+ year old cars. i was told that (while inquiring about low mileage a boxer) the car looked as good as it could for being 20 yrs old. it was a 7,000 km car in atlanta for referrence. i told him that is bullshit as a 4,000 mi car should simply be as new even if there is some dust to wipe away. the car turned out to be worn and tattered...why do these car guys get stupid when representing what should be an important car? i have looked at many boxers and low mileage cars should look new and not ragged...period | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1909 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>I would love to hear of a closed sale of a boxer for excess of 90k in the last year.<< You can't live in the past and drive off in the present. The prices "were" depressed and they only built 1100 BBi's for the World and only about 250-300 (if that) are still in the US. My advice, next time prices get depressed = Buy, but trying to live in the past and bemoan prices that are slowing inching back up towards fair value is very boring. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4105 Registered: 9-2001 |
your right, they are not brokedicks because they do not overpay for their cars I would love to hear of a closed sale of a boxer for excess of 90k in the last year. if it happened its the exception not the norm, but no harm in asking | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1908 Registered: 11-2002 |
<<Offered at: $ 95.000<< >>that pretty rich, seems like an early 84 from the vin, nice car but prob 15-20 over priced on a good day<< Don't kid yourself. Boxer owners like Daytona owners aren't generally brokedicks just trying to unload. Dealers may be a different case, but affluent owners know what they have & what they're worth. I had a feeling mine was priced a little low! | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4104 Registered: 9-2001 |
I hear you, from my notes, which are dated, I saw pristine late 84s going in the mid 80s, this is an early 84 with a few nicks here and there so that's why I was thinking 75-80. when was the 30k done? says it could win a platinum, but has it? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5084 Registered: 5-2001 |
Tom, that is how I feel as well. More like 10K - 15K I guess but yes, my feel as well. Doody, the car has actually lesss than 19K right now but is being driven every now and then. I would assume that most will think it has just above 19K but you are right, it could also mean 190K | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1371 Registered: 11-2001 |
martin - why are the miles listed as "greater than 19,000"? that would include numbers like 19,001, 184,000, and 73,500, right? why not list it as "less than 20,000" if it's got miles going onto it regularly? just curious, doody. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4103 Registered: 9-2001 |
that pretty rich, seems like an early 84 from the vin, nice car but prob 15-20 over priced on a good day | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5080 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here is the link guys, please feel free to comment. It is a consignment car so I did not price the car. http://www.miamioffices4rent.com/cavallino/invent/512BB.htm | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5079 Registered: 5-2001 |
Edward, you have mail. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 309 Registered: 5-2002 |
I think I can tell if a car is a low mileage or high mileage by looking at the enterior, engine, body, etc... anyhow, I personally would not buy a "low" mileage car unless I inspected it and found it to be a low mileage car. Even a car in a climate controlled garage for 20 years will not look "brand" new | ||
| Frank R. Masiarz (Fmasiarz)
New member Username: Fmasiarz Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hi....... Check out the article on the BB512 in the October 2002 issue of "Classic and Sports Car" - pages 134-139, from Haymarket Specialist Publications Limited [UK] entitled: Boxer Tricks - "Richard Heseltine slugs it out with the 5-litre development of Ferrari's fabulous flat-12 middie" There will be a "Collectible Classics" article on the Boxer in "Automobile" magazine in the fall of this year. JRV states the case: car is heavy, but "lightens" at speed and has a tremendous torque curve. Awesome acceleration to the top of fourth gear at any time !!! Subject to "off-throttle oversteer", but completely tractable in normal use. Great car !! Frank.........23005 www.masiarz.net/bb_resource | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 418 Registered: 3-2002 |
Anyone know where Tino's 81 Red and creme with red inserts and red carpet BB is located in Florida forsale ? I asked Tino. He does not know who the dealer is. It is not a factory authorized dealer. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 662 Registered: 6-2002 |
Jeff Green - the spring costs approximately 20 pounds U.K., although I was quoted $60 U.S. from Ferrari Dealership. I ordered it on July 4th from Jeff Howe's team in the U.K. It is a very large spring constant (heavy spring) approximately 3 inches long with large eye hook ends. Nothing complicated. I can send a photo if you desire. The one illustrated on the parts page at Maranello U.K. is not an accurate depiction. I looked for substitutes, but could not find one as heavy in such a small package (design). Let me know. I telephoned several respected shops looking for the spring here in the U.S., and everyone told me that they break frequently. Thus, there may be a market for them. Jim S. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 900 Registered: 8-2001 |
Regarding mileage on a Boxer: Like James, I have come to the conclusion that I don't trust ANY mileage on an older Ferrari, unless it is a one owner car....... owned by the Pope. How can one believe the mileage on an older Ferrari, which had 4-6 owners? NOT ME!!!!!! I bought my Boxer with 17K miles, and do not believe the mileage. The speedometer is one with an MPH speedo, but after several months, I noticed that the red lettering on the speedo is darker (newer) then the lettering on the other gauges. I can't believe that the installer of the new speedo took the time to advance the odometer to the previous setting. I bought the car because it was like new looking, with extensive (documented) service. I still feel I took a chance, but was willing to take it. I like the Boxer very much......even though it needs a new clutch at 18K miles.....it appears the original went from fatigue. | ||
| Mike Dawson (Miked)
Junior Member Username: Miked Post Number: 112 Registered: 2-2001 |
While we are on the subject of "grey market" cars, I'd like to know a few things from those with first hand experience. With DOT and EPA documentation in hand, what is the consequence of living in a area that requires smog checks? What about insurance? I realize that the answers can vary company to company and state to state, I am just looking for generalities. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 359 Registered: 10-2002 |
James...may I ask what the cost of that helper spring is? The reason I ask is that I work at a spring company and may be able to "prototype" a couple for you. Is it a complicated shape or just coils with hooks on each end? Hope you don't mind me interrupting this thread. Sincerely; Jeff Green | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1182 Registered: 5-2001 |
This one was red/crema. I don't beleive much of anything has ever been "redone" on it other than a major service with belts and coolant hoses. It is very original... | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 660 Registered: 6-2002 |
Marty - I saw this on E-Bay. Looks like a nice car. No engine pictures, but presumably there is one. I would buy it. The fundamental question is whether price is an issue? Let's say the bidding got to $70k, and you could buy it now for $75k. If you want the car, would the $5k deter you? Imagine the frustration for the next 5 years kicking yourself for not spending the extra $5k. If you take care of the car, you will get it back. It might slow down the sale, make it slightly less liquid, but you will find a buyer like yourself (myself) who will see the value for the $5k and buy the car from you. Rare gems and F-cars have a value to be determined only by the purchaser. If it is something you want, and are in the financial stratum to be able to purchase it, then don't let 7% one way or another deter you. Jim S. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 659 Registered: 6-2002 |
What color? I have seen a beautiful silver with maroon interior. Clutch was gone. There is a "helper" spring on the clutch pedal mechanism that frequently breaks. If the spring has snapped, then the clutch is very heavy. The spring is to help that mid-pedal transition. My spring is broken, and I await one from Maranello U.K. But to answer your question, it is a heavy clutch - twin plate 1800 pounds or more. That is why they went to the hydraulic system versus the cable found on the earlier 365BB. Jim S. | ||
| Marty B. (Martinb)
New member Username: Martinb Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2003 |
Anybody know this car? http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=6212&item=2422144816 Thanks | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 1179 Registered: 5-2001 |
James, I recently drove a very original low miles car (4700 miles) 1984 512BBi and noticed the clutch grabbed very early. That is, as I released the clutch it grabbed in the first inch or so of travel. Does yours do this? This car was the nicest, original 512BBi I have ever seem, and there are some real nice onces around here. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 657 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mine is my daily driver. The heck with miles. Like my southern California white-water ocean view home; it ain't worth nothing if I'm never going to sell it. Can't afford to sell it (figure that one out). Same with the Boxer. Oh, and by the way, unless you are the original owner, don't trust the miles. I know all the issues, and how to trace miles through work receipts, but it is simply too easy to periodically disconnect the speedo. And I am not a cynic - I awake each morning hoping to find an honest man. Jim S. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2652 Registered: 9-2001 |
I believe the UK spec cars came with MPH speedo from the factory. In any event, my point was that unless you are the original owner, there is no way to tell the exact miles on a gray market car such as the Boxer. There was such an incentive to get the cars converted and sold back when they were selling for $250k and up that a lot of things could and often did happen. I even heard of cars that were being raced in Europe that were brought over to the USA, converted and then sold as "almost new" with low miles indicated on the odometer. | ||
| M Grande (Grande)
Junior Member Username: Grande Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2001 |
Another easy way to find out what type of speedo in your car is just drive a mile in your car and watch the odometer. If its around 1.6 "miles" to the interstate miles, then you are reading km's.....oh, and mine was not converted by the guys Frank mentioned that were screwing around....although I think the shop that did it did go out of business...oh, well. Mike | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 247 Registered: 4-2002 |
Geeeeeezzzz Frank, I didn't think any other country in the world used the "english system of measurement" other than us. Much to my total disbelief, Ferrari does indeed list a non-metric speedo for the BB. I learned something new today... So...You didn't answer JRV question. Does your car have cats? Actually they work very well on a BB, paticularly if you're having a "car-b-q"....HA! Regards, David | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2002 |
my experience w/ boxers is similar to frank's...i looked at 12 "immaculate" cars all over the country. these cars were almost all dissapointing as they were never properly represented. they all had low mileage (yeah right!)and the paint and interiors always looked ragged. i did not know how i could ever buy one of the cars thinking that i would spend another 30k + just to get the cosmetics correct. this became a vey frustrating pursuit until i happened on the richt car. it is amazing to me how awesome a boxer can be when it really is like new!! do plan on adjusting your offer price to reflect the need for a major service or at least a clutch. these are great cars and they just look, sound , and feel awesome on the road. do not just buy the first car w/o having seen others as a point of referrence. the quality of cars can vary more in a boxer than any other car i have ever seen. lastly, i personally had decided only on getting an amerispec federalized car as •••• fritz is the only importer that through all the grey market bull ••••, was able to stay around. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1906 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well Frank, never mind, certianlly don't want anyone getting burned playing with exhausts to see what's on there. ;-) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2646 Registered: 9-2001 |
JRV, I plead the 5th on the cat.conv. question. As I am just a dumb lawyer with little or no mechanical skills, I wouldn't know a cat.conv. if it burned me while I was removing it to install test pipes. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1905 Registered: 11-2002 |
>> But, according to Richard Merritt of the DOT and ���� Fritz of Amerispec, a MPH speedo was a requirement as part of the DOT conversion process.<< So where Catalytic Converters Frank ! Is your car so equipped Frank, or are you in violation of FEDERAL LAW? ;-) Nothing will melt rear fog lights faster than a Rich Running BB/BBi with cats. ;-) Yes Mardikian and several cohorts were doing funny business and went to jail. I resurected several of their Ferraris and Lamborghinis after the fact. But the fact remains the speedos only needed MPH Faceplates or Silk Sceened Markings. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2645 Registered: 9-2001 |
Guys, I am well aware that there were no USA spec Boxers. But, according to Richard Merritt of the DOT and Richard Fritz of Amerispec, a MPH speedo was a requirement as part of the DOT conversion process. I understand that a lot of cars were not properly converted though. As a matter of fact, I was told that one conversion company, AutoTrend, who's owners were jailed in the late 1980s, would take photographs of one Boxer that they properly comverted and then use copies of those same photgraphs to send to the DOT for other cars that were not converted at all. There are a lot of those cars out there that have DOT/EPA paperwork but are not really legal due to such criminal activity of crooked conversion companies. And David, there are other countries in the world that also use MPH speedos other than the USA. You can find the part# for such a MPH speedo at your local Ferrari dealer. That's where the legitimate conversion companies got the MPH faceplates to use in the conversion. That being said, I agree that there are legitimate low mile Boxers out there. Based on my investigation, inspection and service records I believe the 12,xxx miles my 1982 BB512i had on it at the time of purchase was correct. There are others out there that are not ! Finally, Boxers are great cars and are a blast to drive. I drive mine two to three times per week. They sound great, perform great and look great. Out of the six Ferraris I have owned, my Boxer is my favorite so far. The only complaint I have so far is that the TRX tires are noisy. But, they do give a nice ride and have the proper look for the car's vintage. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1903 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>How do these cars drive? << Well Tuned FI Boxers Feel like driving a Turbine Powered Car, as the Torque Band is huge and they just pull very smooth yet deceptivly fast in every gear. >Heavy?, < In the beginning they feel heavy because they are, around 3700 Lbs, really solid, well built, very fast machines, but as one "learns the car" they feel like they own the road. >tossable?< Not really imo. Although with practice you can make them dance to your tune if you are "in tune" with the machine. >Heavy steering/brakes?< Steering Slightly heavy at very low speeds imo, but only at very slow speeds and perfect feedback at speed. Brakes are excelent as long as one keeps things in perspective that they were great for their day, but not like some brakes of cars 20 years younger, very adequate by any measure though. As long as they're bled properly. >Can they be taken on a road trip/cruise w/o the AAA truck following closely?< All depends on the caliber of "your essential man" the mechanic. Machines are only as reliable as the expertise and dedication of the last guy that worked on them. | ||
| DaveE (Banzaiboxr)
Junior Member Username: Banzaiboxr Post Number: 159 Registered: 8-2002 |
Well kept BBi Boxers are blast to drive .Most owners learn to deal with driving problems like Hot weather , fair A/C , heavy steering on some cars-not all!.Brakes are excellent on my car-but do get lots of brake dust on the wheels .My car is a high mileage car and can be driven long distances with no problem. You must want to own one for the sure enjoyment and not investment .You will regret any preowned Ferrari in today's market to make money unless you get it free.It takes at least a few months to investigate possible cars and learn about them and know what to expect.You must consider the buyer for these magnificent cars will understand the pitfalls of owning one and keeping it tuned and maintained all the time .If you do not know what to expect you do not deserve to own one .(MHO) Enjoy the experience if you can afford it | ||
| Edward (Edward_96gts)
Junior Member Username: Edward_96gts Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2002 |
How do these cars drive? Heavy?, tossable? Heavy steering/brakes? Can they be taken on a road trip/cruise w/o the AAA truck following closely? | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 896 Registered: 8-2001 |
Just make sure the clutch is good. haha.....all other problems are minor.......personal experience!!!!! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1901 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Absolutely, as there were no USA spec Boxers...All gray market,<< How many thousands of times does that need to be pointed out before some people "GET IT" ? ;-) | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 244 Registered: 4-2002 |
"All Boxer speedo read in km.." Absolutely, as there were no USA spec Boxers...All gray market, and some actually were "made" US legal. There is no USA spec speedo..."that reads miles, so to speak.."as Ferrari never imported this car. Common practice was to "re-paint the speedo numbers to read MPH versus KM/H, while still having the odometer read in KM. The DOT requirement pertained to speedometer reading, not the odometer... FWIW | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 1900 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Part of the DOT conversion process required that the speedo be changed from km to miles.<< Not correct Frank. Most of the speedos had simple face plates "marked with MPH" along the perimeter. And I agree with Dr. I, not all Low Mileage BB's are Hocus Pocus. I have one of the nicest around for sale looks brand new, cause it almost is, 10K miles Documented, Fully RECENTLY Serviced, New Clutch, CATS, NEEDS Nothing, not even the dash is pulling back. Here's the link to pics. http://groups.msn.com/WJH/512bbi.msnw?albumlist=2 I've serviced & repaired a large amount of Boxers spanning 20+ yrs, if you have specific questions or concerns I'll be glad to provide answers. . | ||
| M Grande (Grande)
Junior Member Username: Grande Post Number: 78 Registered: 12-2001 |
It is my understanding that most Boxer odometers are in KM...I know mine is in KM (6900...or about 4200 verifiable miles and no issues). Mike | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2643 Registered: 9-2001 |
Coachi, just curious as to why your car's odometer would be in Km rather than miles ? Part of the DOT conversion process required that the speedo be changed from km to miles. So if your speedo is in KPH, where is the MPH speedo that was put in the car for conversion purposes ? How many "miles" were driven on the car with the MPH speedo before a KPH speedo was put back in ? Do you also have the MPH speedo ? If you don't have both the original KPH speedo AND the MPH speedo put in for DOT conversion, how could you know the kms indicated are correct ? | ||
| Edward (Edward_96gts)
Junior Member Username: Edward_96gts Post Number: 59 Registered: 8-2002 |
Martin, Please email info w/ pics. Thanks | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5812 Registered: 8-2002 |
Martin, Bring pick's this weekend | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5042 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have one for sale. The car has only very very minor issues. An extraorinary nice car. | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5810 Registered: 8-2002 |
Frank, so true. Matt | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 307 Registered: 5-2002 |
Not true of all low mileage cars. I can guarantee than my boxer does indeed have less than 9000 kilometers...as I have owned it most of its life and i thoroughly researched it before I bought it from the previous owner. I agree than low miles is not necessarily better than high miles...but a boxer with 80,000 miles somehow is undesirable to me. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2642 Registered: 9-2001 |
How true on the alleged low mileage Boxers. At a recent Swap Meet at TRutlands a fellow drove up in a 1983 BB512i that he had just purchased that supposely had only 3,xxx original miles. After looking at the car, IMHO there is no doubt that the car had well over that many miles. The interior was worn out and the engine and engine compartment looked like it had been rode hard and put away wet. I felt plum sorry for the owner who had been ripped off by the seller. FYI, a lot of Boxers out there were owned and driven hard by their owners in Europe through the early to mid 1980s. Then, when the market went way up, those same Boxers were shipped here to the USA to be converted and sold for in some case in excess of $250,000.00. The true mileage was lost when the MPH speedo was used to replace the KPH speedo or when some crook just decided to roll the speedo back or replace it with a low mileage speedo. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 650 Registered: 6-2002 |
Call D-i-c-k Merritt - extraordinarily nice guy and very knowledgeable. Willing to spend time on the phone to help out a Ferrari enthusiast. Give him last 5 digits of VIN and he can tell you everything you need to know about car's legal status. Richard F. (D-i-c-k) Merritt Work: (202) 366-5300 Agree - do not spend extra money for low mileage. Likely to represent a disconnected speedometer. Jim S. | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5794 Registered: 8-2002 |
Stay away from Ultra low milage cars that want high $$$. Most boxers for sale will need some degree of service. Factor a major service in your purchase price. Look at the tires too. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2640 Registered: 9-2001 |
Contact Richard Merrit at the DOT in Washington, DC (call 411 for number). Mr Merritt can confirm whether or not the car is DOT/EPA compliant as long as you have the VIN. Also, call Gerald Roush at the Ferrari Market Letter and he can give you the ownership history on most Boxers in the USA. Once Mr. Merritt and Mr. Roush confirm the car is OK, check out the service records and then have a PPI done by a mechanic familiar with Boxers. I must have looked at 10-15 Boxers before I bought the one I own. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 408 Registered: 3-2002 |
James: Nice row of cars. That BB/BBi is still calling me. That van is awesome. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 649 Registered: 6-2002 |
Great car. California Bureau of Automotive Repair (B.A.R.) sticker is a must to register in California. Should be located on driver door stop. Must have original DOT/EPA papers. Major service at 30,000 miles - engine out for belts. Have everything done at that time - water pump, alternator rebuilds, injectors, electrics, etc. Cost $8,000 - $10,000. Dash likely sun-damaged. Will require new leather or treatment. Have fun. Jim S. | ||
| Edward (Edward_96gts)
Junior Member Username: Edward_96gts Post Number: 58 Registered: 8-2002 |
the 512bbi. What to look for when buyig. DOT/EPA? CA location. Type of sevices req? Intervals? Belts on this motor? Thanks |