| Author | Message | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 574 Registered: 6-2002 |
Scott- Everything you said, I just have one responce; "HELL YEAH!!!" There's a reason my new line of loudspeakers will be all hand-made with care and precision. Full of bits that I did not 'have' to do, but did anyway, for the sheer unadultraded hell of it, because I am in love with the idea, and taking the idea into solid tangible form. I too am in love with the 288GTO's shape, and the F355's SOUND and fury! god willing, I will one day build one. | ||
| nickm........ (Nickm)
Junior Member Username: Nickm Post Number: 244 Registered: 8-2001 |
Man...all this bashing on customized Ferraris makes me think I'm back in high school. Put somebody elses idea down so you (think) you are "cooler". Grow up. You are probably the same guys who complain on Fchat when a non-Ferrari owner disrespects you or your car. You probably dont even realize you are doing the same thing. | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 32 Registered: 6-2003 |
Well, this crowd have a 308 running twin turbo's for sale. It was a conversion done by an authorised Ferrari dealer and might be worth a look for ideas. 390hp www.rosneathengineering.co.uk | ||
| Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
Junior Member Username: Srandrsn Post Number: 171 Registered: 4-2001 |
No offense Henryk, but some people (myself included) like to do things that have never been done before. They/we like to do things just because people say it can't/shouldn't be done. We take a thought or an idea and turn the impossible into the possible, we challenge ourselves to think outside the box, to break barriers and do what most people would not even attempt. For some of us the "creation" or the process of "doing" is what makes us tick and drives our passion. I myself build/remodel homes, make displays and check out counters for retail stores, create custom furniture, restore antique furniture and boats... the list goes on... People come to me because no matter what they bring to my shop... I can fix it, make it or repair it. The process in which I do that is what challenges me and others like me. We use our knowledge, experience, and ingenuity to create, build, fix, or repair things where others fall short. These are the things that drive people like Robert. It makes some people do or try things that have not been done before. It's fun and challenging to break ground and take on a challenge for no other reason than to say you did something that most said could not be done. I'm sure you have done things like that before... let's give the guy a little support. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 329 Registered: 2-2003 |
'Cuz it's fun! These cars are all toys anyway.  | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 932 Registered: 8-2001 |
Why would anyone want to do something this stupid? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 613 Registered: 5-2002 |
That's why they call it custom, you get to have it any way you want. A few years back I put a set of Mikuni carbs off a Yamaha FZR 1000 on a 911 engine. I bet they would work well on a 308/328 too. I checked my notes, they flowed 138 CFM @ 10" h2O through the head, it made 340 hp @ 8500 from a 2.8 liter 6 cylinder. They are a down draft design and come in sets of 4. I paid $60 for one set and $100 for the other (I only used 6 of them). Also, they are a CV type, so they have a slide which controls the mixture through the mid range much better than a weber can. They aren't EFI, but are closer than any other carb on the market. For a little more performce, you could buy the after market flat slide version, I guess they flow about 5-10% better, I think you'd pay something like $1200 per set of 4. Just a thought. | ||
| Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1212 Registered: 12-2001 |
Simple and inexpensive. My 79 has carbs, converting it to FI is a pain and would do nothing for resale value other than hurt it. If you have to rebuild your tired 308 engine, a used 328 engine would be the hot ticket. Fabricate intake manifolds only and bolt on the original carbs and linkage. Voila, more power, stock appearance, wonderful sound and good resale value. | ||
| Bert Kanters (Bert308)
New member Username: Bert308 Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yes PSK, I'm guilty too. I'm butchering up my 308 too, for no other reason than to make it look like better, while in fact under the paint it will be a crude welded mesh of steel sheets. I hope some people will keep their 1980 GTSi with big bumpers, side lights, and cage over the exhaust original. I think Ferrari wrecked the 308 themselves, when preparing them for the US market. Still I admit I'm feeling a bit guilty to cut up a repairable 308 just to make it look good from the outside. Having said that...hmmm...making a polyester copy of the work I did so far, cut it off again, stretche the frame and get that 355 drive train...let me dream a bit! James Lee, a 355 drive train is North-South with gearbox behind the engine, just like the GTO, so would be perfect.  | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2003 |
What about bolting it in north south as well. Wasn't the 288 the same as the Michelotti competition 308s with the gearbox at the back for quick ratio changes? This could get really messy. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 708 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yep, a 355 engine and gearbox in to a 308 would make a very good 288 GTO replica. This would require a wheelbase stretch but the 308 is just a steel space frame simple thing ... thus out with the cut off grinder and weld in some more ... and buy one of those GTO kits (and fix it for the correct wheelbase, as most would be based on the incorrect wheelbase of the 308) and done. You would end up with a horrible replica, but for some reason you want to ruin a 308 anyway, and this method would be cheaper and most of the rest of the world would understand why if you made a great sounding 288 GTO replica. Not something I would do, ie. wreck a Ferrari on purpose ... but it is your car. Pete | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 608 Registered: 5-2002 |
The subframe is a good way to go, but I think there will be wheel base isues ....now if it was a GTO clone.... I looked at some of the dyno numbers I have, 5% seems to be the average for carb to EFI conversion, so the math is pretty close. I still think a 308/328 could be converted to EFI for about $3k if you use the OEM intake and retrofit the electronic injectors into it. It wouldn't make as much power as 8 throttle bodies, but it should equal what you could get with carbs and be more drivable and lower maintanance. I like the idea of tracking down the factory turbo parts too, that would make adding boost easy. I think the cheapest I could do a supercharger for is about $7500 including EFI and 40% hp increase, maybe $8700 for 60% increase, about $12500 for 100% increase...still way cheaper than the 355 engine conversion | ||
| Erich Walz (Deleteall)
Member Username: Deleteall Post Number: 454 Registered: 12-2001 |
Or, you could just drop an entire 355 subframe into the 308. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33615&item=2423542675 | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 251 Registered: 2-2003 |
NASCAR still uses carbs, Pro-Stock still uses Carbs! that's b/c the rules say they have to, not because they want to. FI will always give you more power than a carb. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 607 Registered: 5-2002 |
The racing bodies that are still using carb do it for cost as far as I know. And on the track, carb are not that bad to deal with. You bring a thermometer, barometer and humidity gages, type the info into your spreadsheet on the laptop and get the right jet size. Put them in and go race. Idle or even the whole bottom 1/3 or the rpm band doesn�t matter at all as long as it stays running. The street is a different place though. Not doing the jet changes means you give up as much as 50% (I have see this on a dyno several occasion) of you hp at about 1/3 �1/2 rpm�..right where you drive most of the time. I just don�t see any reason to mess with them unless the rule say you need to. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 876 Registered: 4-2002 |
"There is a reason that in every ulimited race series, Fuel Injection is in use. (think F1, no carbs!)" NASCAR still uses carbs, Pro-Stock still uses Carbs! Webers were fine until the cornering loads got over 1.3 Gs or so. With modern aerodymanics and 3Gs-4Gs of sideways loads, no float bowl could hold gas and acurately meter it into the air inlets. In addition, no F1 team (at this point) could deal with the ~2% loss of the venturis or the additional 2% loss of the rotating throttle plate. And then there is all the engine management stuff that keeps the engine from self destruction (but just) that could never be done with a carb. "individual throttles per cylinder with open velocity stacks sounds *incredible!*" Especially so when enhanced with the subtle burble of gas being sucked out of the float chamber in a properly carbed motor. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 562 Registered: 6-2002 |
There is a reason that in every ulimited race series, Fuel Injection is in use. (think F1, no carbs!) individual throttles per cylinder with open velocity stacks sounds *incredible!* Best! Ben. | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 13 Registered: 6-2003 |
I think you could possibly do a factory turbo motor for under $4.3K. Downside is it would be second hand, and a bit of mucking about but pretty bullet proof and reliable from what I have heard and it looks like it's stock. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 323 Registered: 2-2003 |
Cost independant hard to argue boost + EFI. I think per dollar spent on the conversion, carbs will give the most return. That was my conclusion, anyway. It looks like my total will be around $4.3k when finished. Pricing I totaled on EFI was quite a bit higher, and turbos, well I was not so taken for my requirements. I decided not to do cams until later, but will go to a more aggressive cam once carbs done. hope this helps rt | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2003 |
The the easiest way would be to use the plumbing out of the original Turbo version. It all bolts in though you need the two extra lower NACA ducts. Then you would get cast manifolds etc. and as it's all factory Ferrari it would naturally look original. I just did 3 months in Rome and there is one at the local wrecker yard sitting on top of a pole :-(. I'll have a nosey around when I'm back next time if you like. Though it might be easier to just freight the entire motor and box. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 606 Registered: 5-2002 |
Newman, Your right that the OEM mechanical FI is not very good. Replacing it with just about anything will make more hp. 8 single 48-52 mm throttle bodies will make over 30 more hp and it will sound identical to a carb'd engine. A set of webers will probably give you most of that though. The real advantage on the street is that efi will always stay in tune so the hp doesn�t vary day to day and will start and idle when you turn the key. The other big advantage is that you can run as much cam as you want on the street and it will still idle and drive properly. You just can't do that with carbs. There are some pretty good reasons the factories stopped using carb 25 years ago. I guess the main one was air temp and pressure changes screwing up the mixture so they couldn�t pass the emissions testing without tuning for the day. As far as Drag engines making more hp with carbs, well the guy that wrote that must have been a little confused. I�ve seem half a dozen drag motors dyno�d with carb then dyno�d after an efi conversion and every one made more power. The reason is pretty simple, air. To make a carb work, there needs to be vacuum at the venturi, and that is a flow restriction. With EFI, you just increase the throttle body size until the hp stops going up. There is no performance loss from going to big, it just gets a little harder to make it idle, but no where near as hard as a carb�d engine. Personally I will never build another engine with a carb on it, I just don�t like messing with them constantly. I do understand the allure of simpler times, but I just can�t get past my need for speed. EFI and a blower and I�m good to go | ||
| Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1211 Registered: 12-2001 |
Mark, for what ever reason in Drag cars, carbs seem to make a higher peak HP over FI. Just something I read not to mention the sound they provide over the FI. A carbed 328 engine will make more power than a stock factory FI setup, you will have a hard time convincing me otherwise cosidering the maze the air takes to get to the throttlebody on one. | ||
| Jean-Louis (Jlm348)
Member Username: Jlm348 Post Number: 608 Registered: 11-2002 |
If I am not mistaken. At blackhorse motors in Los Angeles,CA. They are actually in the process of putting a 355 engine into a 308. Give the guys a call there they might be able to give you more info. JLM | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1495 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just want to throw this out there... If you really can't do without the 308 shape (God knows I can't!) do a reverse "kit car". Take a 355 and put a 308 body on it! Cheers | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 604 Registered: 5-2002 |
---I would carb it for maximum HP--- Seriously, no carb set up will make the hp power you'll get with EFI....and neither carb non EFI will match what just 3-4 psi will do for you...at 15 psi (as high as I would go on a stock engine)even a 360 is no match hp wise....just a thought | ||
| Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1210 Registered: 12-2001 |
Im sure they are similar in weight to a 355 powertrain but wont fit a 308 without the use of a magic wand. Im toying with the idea of an engine swap or go crazy with the carbed engine Im currently running but cost is a big factor. A 328 engine is the most cost effective choice and I would carb it for maximum HP and sound. | ||
| Erich Walz (Deleteall)
Member Username: Deleteall Post Number: 451 Registered: 12-2001 |
"I'm thinking the 355 drivetrain would be relatively similar to the 308 drivetrain in terms of weight and therefore wouldn't upset the balance of the car." According to Goldsmith, the extra weight isn't a penalty but does improves the balance of the car. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 603 Registered: 5-2002 |
I thought long and hard about doing an engine swap in my 308....but when push comes to shove, putting a turbo or blower on the stock engine gives you more hp for a lot less money and work. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 529 Registered: 5-2002 |
We have had threads on here with the V-12 308 along with pics. I'm thinking the 355 drivetrain would be relatively similar to the 308 drivetrain in terms of weight and therefore wouldn't upset the balance of the car. | ||
| James Lee (Aventino)
New member Username: Aventino Post Number: 8 Registered: 6-2003 |
There is a crowd in the US who were putting the V12 out of a 400 or 250 GTE or something into 308s. The article appeared in Road and Track a wee while (10 years) ago. There were doing a complete kit that didn't seem too expensive and sounded great. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 544 Registered: 6-2002 |
I personally love the idea, and you would just about have to do the 288GTO body while you are at it (to use the entire F355 driveline and ecus, etc. which would be the way to go.) To me, this may be THE ultimate Ferrari! 288GTO body (my fav... this week.) and the F355 motor's SOUND and POWER! (also mf fav of the week You could build a modern, NA 288 that would blow the doors off the orgional. (supposedly the F355 is faster, and the 308/55 would be even lighter than the 355....) Small V12s have also been stuffed in with the stock 3x8 gearbox, which is also pretty cool. Best! Ben. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 754 Registered: 2-2001 |
For the cost of bolting a 328 engine into a 308 it seems like it would be better to just buy a 328, plus you aren't getting that much of a power increase. | ||
| Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
Member Username: Todd328gts Post Number: 503 Registered: 6-2002 |
I agree with Newman...this kind of thing turns into a circus act to get it to work properly | ||
| Newman (Newman)
Intermediate Member Username: Newman Post Number: 1209 Registered: 12-2001 |
Too much money and too much fabrication to make work. Put a 328 engine in, it bolts right onto the gearbox unlike the 348/355 engine. You could buy a 348 by the time you put the 355 engine in the 308. | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 395 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think it'd be way cool. I say, go for it. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2002 |
do a search and find JRV's pics on stuffing a Daytona engine into a 308...that'll keep you buzy for a while... | ||
| L. (Testaroja)
Junior Member Username: Testaroja Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2003 |
That sounds like a great idea, I knew of a 412 motor in a 308. Norwood was thinking of running a 308 with a testarossa motor but he didnt get the motor on time and then he put a can am 351 spec. motor. For me a 308 body with GTO fenders with a 348 or 355 engine would be a great car. If not I would put a P4 body on it from italian auto but with a testarossa engine, some day I will have one of this done. I have a TR but I want a more edgy Ferrari. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 516 Registered: 5-2002 |
As I was cruising in my S2000 last Sunday I got to thinking about my next car purchase which godwilling will be a Ferrari. I've always said how much I love the 308 but I got to thinking maybe I could move up to a 355. Then I thought hmmmmmmmmm how about a 308 with a 355 engine in it. Has anyone seen/heard of anyone doing this? |