| Author | Message | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 554 Registered: 10-2001 |
Looks like Frank has been shown to be the only guy that wants to see a new car brand called the Dino. Sorry Frank but you have lost all your debates. Dino is a model name... thats it. Just like I don't think we will see a new line of cars called the Daytona. Or a Testarossa dealership anytime soom. I just wanted to say... I like Frank and I like the Dino Ferrari, very nice little car. I didn't want to beat up on the guy or the car. But Frank has something to chat about and I enjoyed exploring it. This is the most fun I've had with the subject since I saw "Cheech and Chong's Next Movie". Anyone want to see a Dino race a cop car on a dirt road? Very funny.. and might be best Dino chase in a movie. All in fun Frank | ||
| Raleigh Smith (288gto)
Junior Member Username: 288gto Post Number: 97 Registered: 10-2002 |
I had heard that Alfa Romeo is going to be owned by Ferrari, so how about an Alfa (going back to their racing roots) making the car. There's another GT class racer that could also make a whole lotta cah. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Member Username: Dom Post Number: 292 Registered: 11-2002 |
To quote Rich (dino 2400) again: "Design? An Italian version of what Lotus has done with the Elise. That's what I'd like to see in a new Dino. From 2 to 2.4 litre, na, 260-300hp, LIGHTWEIGHT (2000 lbs?), amazing brakes, etc. But of course it should have a classic Pininfarina look to it, or as much as possible with today's crash protection regulations." That's what I want. At a competitive price to the lotus. And, I'd guess lots of other's too. Call it a Dino. Heck, call it a Maserati, or Alfa, or Lancia, or even a Fiat. If we had that car, with the Italian heritage, I think buyers would be lining up for it. Dom | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2690 Registered: 9-2001 |
Dinos rule ! | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 553 Registered: 10-2001 |
When you study a name brand you also have to take into account how it sounds. Dino sounds too much like Dog, Dingo, or Dino on the Flintstones. Its not a sexy Italian sounding word from the phonetics stand point. Look at how Lambo carefully names its cars after bulls or bullfighters, very sexy. And Enzo is not that bad with the "Z' sound, or Lexus is also nice on the ear. I once had a great set of Golf Clubs come in from Korea, best clubs I'd ever seen but they made the mistake of putting a dog on the back as the logo. Didn't sell in the USA, even though the dog was very respectable in some Countries. Small marketing mistake took company right down the drain. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 230 Registered: 4-2001 |
The Dino name would be an absolute loser. Didn't Ferrari rebadge it after a strong demand from dealers? Didn't owners on their own rebage it? Why would any one think things have changed? Whats different? To most Americans today "Dino" refers to Dean Martin singing "When the Moon Hits your eye...."---not a serious sports car. Ferrrair Spa has made their decision. Maserati is their "entry level". Boxter comparisons don't cut it. Don't they have a Porsche badge on the nose? | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 873 Registered: 2-2002 |
I don't see Ferrari resurrecting the Dino name because Maserati now fills the slot of the "almost Ferrari". Now, if Maserati would introduce an affordable mid-engine car with the timeless beauty and style of the Dino, I think that would succeed in the marketplace where the current Maser Coupe and Spyder have failed. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 634 Registered: 1-2002 |
Hard to say if one would succeed. However...... If they want to make an aluminum body and chassis car the size of 308/328 with a 3L V8 revving to 10K and about 350HP and 250Ft/lbs. with a total weight of about 2200 lbs. sport seats and few amenities. (No paddle shifts) all for about 100K, I would sign up today! However, I do believe most buyers want performance and cushiness all in one car, which leads to compromises in both areas. Dave | ||
| Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member Username: Lomotpk Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2003 |
Folks, I've had fun today, but its time to log off. AND DRIVE. See ya in the morning | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1425 Registered: 11-2002 |
Stephen, I actually think the 308 is one of the most beautiful automotive designs! One of the few cars that takes my breath away every time I see one. Cheers | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1041 Registered: 1-2002 |
taek: thank you for your reply. While the devil is always in the details, I'd like to add one last "option." That being, the car doesn't have to be a ground up new car, it could be a parts bin car; brakes from the 550, detuned 360 engine, bits and pieces off the 456, suspension off the 360, etc etc. It's a well known practice among the more high volume manufactures, and will absorb and restrict devlopment costs. At the end of the day, sheet metal is sheet metal... then again, my parlance in business is about as good as would be my foray into riding wild bulls for a living. Here's that grain of salt... | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 346 Registered: 10-2001 |
Hugh, I don't think Fiat's problems or potential buyout will have any negative effect on Ferrari. Fiat has six or seven businesses and Fiat Auto Spa is one and Ferrari Spa is another (with Maserati being part of Ferrari). GM, or whomever, would only buy Fiat Auto, not Ferrari. Fiat's other companies are in aviation, insurance, industrial machinery, etc. I don't know how well these companies are doing financially but from what I hear the big loser is Fiat Auto. Service on a new line of cars is potentialy problemantic. People buying a Dino may not be happy about paying the sorts of rates for service that a Ferrari owner pays. Dealers are also very few, and very far between. Having a poor service network is what 'caused the poor reputation of Fiat and Alfa and chased them out of the US in the 80s (it wasn't the cars, which are fine. I've owned 6 Fiats and there is nothing unreliable about them if you know what you are doing with the wrenches they occasionally need.). Where would Dinos be serviced? Hmm... | ||
| Stephen A. Thompson, II (Sat4re)
New member Username: Sat4re Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2003 |
Here's a different take on the question. I've always thought that a modern 246 dino would be fantastic! By that, I mean a very similar look to the original, but with all new mechanics, electrics, engine, etc. The 246 has to be one of the most beautiful vehicles ever designed. I own a 308, but the black and white cut-away art hanging on my living room wall is that of a 246 Dino!!! By the way, is it possible that using the name Dino was somewhat sacred to Enzo, and shouldn't be re-introduced? Just a thought? By the way, Frank, if Ferrari came out tomorrow and said all 308's should be rebadged "Dino," I would be first in line to pick up the new emblems! | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1423 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hugh, I'm not saying it would be a bad idea. I'm saying it's not feasible due to the incredible amount of money that needs to be pumped into such a venture. Introducing a new car to market is a very expensive proposition. Tie that to the fact that Fiat is in shaky ground and you have a definite NO GO from the big wigs and it also tips the feasibility scale to the wrong side. Also figuring on when they would hit their break even point it would not be a good business decision the way things are right now. As for Scion, it is an experimental branch from Toyota. They lose money hoping to experiment with other aspects of car buying and manufacturing. Tailor made, TONS of options, basic platforms, trends and advertising. Also evloves their "just-in-time" system from inventory to manufacturing. I have a lot of insight in that project. I've ssen some of the back end stuff and it's not a money maker. At least not for a while. Also, Toyota created Lexus and Scion to position Toyota better (for the most part, and of course to make money), not for Lexus or Scion. Suzuki's foray into the market is also heavily backed. Keep in mind that they started market penetration quite some time back. Cheers | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1038 Registered: 1-2002 |
taek: Even if there's not a lot of laymen brand recognition, with the speeds at which information travels today, the making of such recognition is not entirely impossible, dully noting that these car would be sold in, or tangent to, Ferrari dealerships (and the allure within) would add to their street cred. Further, I can give TWO examples of recent "brand recognition construction", both the scion motorcompany (held/owned/created by Toyota Motor Co.), and the newly launched Suzuki Aerio showed that you can creat a novel brand if you market it fervently. Then again performance cars are a niche market, and news of a new model, brand, or even reinvention of a make (see mini cooper, and the introduction of the LOTUS ELISE to the US shores) spreads like wildfire; these cars aren't really going to be sold on grand scale, and the ties to ferrari "could" cement a solid image that while tangent to the "parent" image, is sufficently autonomous. TMy next question: why aren't I head of product development? Hello, Mr. Montezemolo? PM me, thanks... please. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1422 Registered: 11-2002 |
I meant McLaren as a name having history. Cheers | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2689 Registered: 9-2001 |
I don't believe the McLaren F1 road car had any history at all. It is Bruce McLaren and his race cars that have gobs of history. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1037 Registered: 1-2002 |
James: You're right, but with the impending doom that a buyout would spell, something to reduce the losses wmight be a welcome change. As any buyout of Fiat is really going to center around a rodeo around the rights to own Ferrari; unless Fiat can pull the slight of hand that (who was it that "bought" a company only not to retain rights to it??? I forget), there's going to be a lot of wrangling for position to milk the Ferrari name for all it's worth. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1420 Registered: 11-2002 |
Frank, No need to address me as Mr. Kwon.  Existing marque meaning it was started and established as opposed to created by the parent company. Even if the existence was comparatively short lived. Also, when you do brand recognition on a test market you also go by demographic breakdown. The most important being you target market. And while Dino might be a more recognizeable brand/name (I personally don't think so) than the other marques, buyers of luxury sports cars are a little more in tune with the automotive world. Also keep in mind that these marques are probably not foreign to their respective buyers. You're average car buyer didn't know and probably still doesn't know what a McLaren F1 is, needless to say they would be really clueless if you mentioned they actually had a history. Cheers | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2688 Registered: 9-2001 |
I don't know about the rest of the world, but I believe the Dino name has more recognition in the USA than Maybach or Bugatti and maybe even Mini. And I don't believe Maybach has produced a car since the 1930s until now so it is hardly an existing marque Mr. Kwon. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Member Username: Dom Post Number: 289 Registered: 11-2002 |
Rich, If they did that, and priced it comparatively to the Lotus (<$50,000) I think they would sell boatloads. I'd get in line for one... Dom (new dino, mmmmmmmmmmmmm) | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 345 Registered: 10-2001 |
Well, I wish they'd do it. I wouldn't worry about Dino not having name recognition among the public at large. We're not talking about a public at large car here. Ferrari may actually have to pay for some advertising but that, coupled with the magazine biz should be plenty to market the small number of cars were talking about here. Design? An Italian version of what Lotus has done with the Elise. That's what I'd like to see in a new Dino. From 2 to 2.4 litre, na, 260-300hp, LIGHTWEIGHT (2000 lbs?), amazing brakes, etc. But of course it should have a classic Pininfarina look to it, or as much as possible with today's crash protection regulations. Heck, maybe two cars - one front engined and one mid-engine. | ||
| Anthony Griffin (Redjeeper)
New member Username: Redjeeper Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2002 |
It would kind of be the same thing as a Tudor wristwatch compared to a Rolex. Only watch collectors know the difference and most would just buy the Rolex if they were priced competitively. Just my .02 | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2002 Registered: 10-2002 |
Hugh I agree except for one thing. I'm not sure anything can save FIAT with the debt load they have and the money they're losing. | ||
| Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member Username: Lomotpk Post Number: 14 Registered: 5-2003 |
If Fiat really wanted to have an 'econobox' mid-engine v6/v8 brand they should pick up Pantera. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1036 Registered: 1-2002 |
I've said this before. If ferrari wanted, they could sell an "introductory" (no, at 150k the 360 doesn't qualify) model at a price point to compete w/ the e46 m3, boxster S, etc. The DINO badging would exactly identify the car w/ Ferrari (good for those who'll hate me for this comment), and it could revive Fiat's fledgling funds, and save the Co. from a buy out. You want a beancounter from Ford, Chrysler making the budget calls for the '06 F1 season? If porsche can take it in the shorts and build the boxster and pepper SUV (one of the MOST acclaimed vehicles of recent times), then fiat/ferrari could do the same. Any argumentation about "history" etc. is really moot b/c porsche has just as an acclaimed racing pedigree as ferrari, just in differing veins of motorsport, and weather or not this would dillute the brand, well? Porsche makes the pepper, the boxster, and also cars like the GT 2, GT 3 (fred schwab get a thumbs up from me on making these N.A. available), and most recently the revival of the GT 3 RS, and the renn sport name overall. About dilluted products... I'll defer to Mr. Hart to chime in on his GT 2 experience. | ||
| Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member Username: Lomotpk Post Number: 13 Registered: 5-2003 |
The mini was a cult vehicle with high name recognition. Bugatti, ultra high end Maybach, ultra high end GT40, cult vehicle Dino, low name recognition (except for the Flinstones and/or Rat Pack crowd), and the current proposal is that the new Dino be focused at a Lower price point than Ferrari. This perversely makes the point that the Dino should be the label/sub-brand for the ultra-high end Ferrari's a la the Enzo. Which would make more sense. As the crowd for whom the name means anything, are already aware of the cachet of the Dino 246. My two marketing cents. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1412 Registered: 11-2002 |
BMW - Mini. Mini was a cultural icon and a pre-existing marque prior ot BMW acquisition. Maybach - MB. Maybach was an existing marque and in the forefront of passenger cosseting in it's heyday. Definitely had a niche. The demographic they target is fully aware of what a Maybach is. Bugatti - VW. Also existing marque with an extremely dedicated following in the vintage arena. Also keep in mind the EB110s. Hardly a resounding success (not mechanically speaking...I think they're awesome). GT40 - Ford. Resurrecting arguably Ford's best car...EVER. None of these are real comparisons to Dino and Ferrari. A more accurate comparison would be Maserati - Ferrari. Cheers | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2687 Registered: 9-2001 |
I doubt it. I suspect it would be a big flop. Just look how bad the resurrection of the Mini by BMW has been ? Oh yea, its been a success so far. Or how about the Maybach from MB ? Oh, that's right, they're already sold out for the next few years and there is a waiting list as long as John Holmes. How about the new Bugatti ? On man, they have more orders than they can fill too. I know, the GT40 come back from Ford ? Full waiting list too and expected to sell way over MSRP. I guess I'm wrong again. Maybe a new Dino would sell ! | ||
| Bob Campen (Bob308gts)
Member Username: Bob308gts Post Number: 693 Registered: 9-2001 |
We all know what Frank P. thinks about this, but what does everyone else think. Little if any market value of the name, people that know nothing about cars have heard of Ferrari, Dino is really only known to the hardcore Ferrari fans. To say it is almost a Ferrari was tried once and failed bigtime so that is not an option. What are your thoughts on this Frank we already know what you think about this |