| Author | Message | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1468 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yep, those weasels founded our country, too. | ||
| chris cummings (Entelechy)
Member Username: Entelechy Post Number: 374 Registered: 5-2001 |
Showed this thread to my father as it personified a conversation we just had. Here is his response: The reason people make constant threats of lawsuits is because it is being perpetuated by law itself, written by endless numbers of legislators who are generally attorneys, who want society to be conditioned to think this way, so that in the finality of it all, they ruin peoples lives and get everything someone else has worked hard for all their respective lives.� Some laws are needed, certainly!� What our trained to be submissive society" is not able to fathom, is that while they are remaining passive, these little weasels are sneaking up on us and are gradually gaining power to destroy this country as we know it.�� | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2716 Registered: 9-2001 |
FYI, under certain circumstances, depending on the state, an oral agreement can be enforced if the other party has relied to his detriment on the oral promises of the other party or has done something which can be established as partial performance of the oral contract. The legal doctrines of "detrimental reliance" and "partial performance" can both be utilized under the right fact senerio to enforce an otherwise unenforceable oral agreement. | ||
| John B (John_b)
New member Username: John_b Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2003 |
The Uniform Commercial Code 203 which governs commercial transactions stipulates that any contract that is either for over $500 in consideration or over one year in duration must be in writing to be valid. Additionally it must be dated and signed by both parties. Without a signed contract you have nothing to worry about. | ||
| Jason Paro (Jason_79)
New member Username: Jason_79 Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2002 |
Philip, I agree with the guys this broker has nothing but word of mouth, so if I wear you I wouldn't loose any sleep over this cause he has nothing that he can sue for and if you need another lawyer to talk to let me know I have a lawyer that has helped me out in the past. Jason | ||
| Drstranglove (Drstranglove)
Member Username: Drstranglove Post Number: 683 Registered: 4-2003 |
Good Luck Phil~!!!! You are a-ok as far as I can see. DrS | ||
| Dr. Erik Nielsen (Judge4re)
Junior Member Username: Judge4re Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2003 |
I posted this to the other thread, but in case you're not watching that one... Philip: I'm not an attorney, and don't play one on TV. Unless you entered into an agreement, such as replying to his email saying "okay, its yours", repeat after me: Adossi il cafonismo come un mantello. Il puzzo del tuo cafonismo avvelena l'aria. Buttati in un mare pieno di merda come te. Vaffanculo, mafioso merdoso! Yes, I lived in the Italian section of Montreal growing up. Ciao, Erik | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 142 Registered: 8-2002 |
Point well taken, Whart - it's why I almost didn't weigh-in in the first place; couldn't help myself . . . but I'm not gonna call my carrier yet . . . ;-) | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1465 Registered: 12-2001 |
Bryan: while your logic is unimpeachable, its not the law in many places. There is a considerable body of law in NY, for example, which says that even though the parties contemplated a more formal "long form" agreement with the bells and whistles, their correspondence can nonetheless result in a binding contract. Thus, one has to be careful what one says in writing. I am not opining on Philip's situation, just making a general observation, and to the extent people rely upon the site for legal advice (which they should not, even when provided by lawyers), caution you not to assume that logic always prevails. (And, yes, i am a lawyer, but i do not exclude myself from the caveat made above. Competent advice can only be rendered with a review of the facts, a knowledge of applicable law, and even then, lawyers disagree, which is what makes litigation a mainstay of our lovely profession). Regards. | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 141 Registered: 8-2002 |
thanks, Don - I like your car! | ||
| Don Norton (Litig8r)
Junior Member Username: Litig8r Post Number: 200 Registered: 6-2001 |
That's very well put, Bryan. | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 140 Registered: 8-2002 |
Philip - while I am not your lawyer and need to be careful about dispensing legal advice online, I will state a contracts law truism that applies to your scenario: An "agreement to agree" is not enforceable. His statement that he'd "send you a contract" evinces his intent to reduce the full terms and conditions of your negotiations into a writing. Therefore, your emails only constitute a negotiation or, at most, an agreement to agree. Not enforceable. | ||
| Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member Username: Lomotpk Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2003 |
That would be an easy thing to find out. Someone send him an email with a lead on the exact same car, and see if the fish snaps! | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1418 Registered: 11-2001 |
methinks Faisal The Hammer has probably hit the proverbial nail on the head. doody. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 514 Registered: 3-2003 |
I suspect the dealer had already sold your car and spent someone else's deposit money. Now he's in a bind because he has to refund the other customer. Not your problem. If things get bad, you can always sue him. He's certainly caused you plenty of mental anguish. | ||
| Jeffrey Davison (Jeffdavison)
Junior Member Username: Jeffdavison Post Number: 159 Registered: 7-2002 |
A contract in business law is defined as an agreement that both parties agree to and is signed and consideration is exchanged. Consideration is defined as money , services or something tangible in exhange for the terms of the contract. Since no consideration was given by you to the broker, there is no binding contract. This is all from business law 101 and I believe written into the fair trade laws of the land. Sleep well, the broker can waste all the time and energy he wants, it will get him nowhere. Jeff Davison | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4172 Registered: 9-2001 |
guys people suing to get cars is the first step in a huge run up in ferrari prices, unlike we have ever seen, even in the 80's. move fast  | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Intermediate Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 2089 Registered: 7-2001 |
I have a friend that sold his house 'By Owner'. Some guy that he met negotiated with him for weeks, about every little nit picking thing without ever making a formal offer on price. In the middle of it all, someone drove by the house, rang the doorbell, and made him an offer on the spot. Guess who he sold it to? The first guy was furious and started spouting 'Gentlemans Agreement', 'We had a deal', etc. etc. He even called an attorney. The attorney told him to get over it and move on with his life. Then he told him to improve his negotiation skills! | ||
| Peter Cyr (Pete04222)
Junior Member Username: Pete04222 Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2002 |
I can't figure out what the guy is sueing you for. If I had called you and said I would like to buy your car and you said ok and then I showed up with the check and the car was gone I would be very upset with you. I would have thought that we had had a deal. Not a contract, but a "gentleman's agreement". I told you I was coming over with the money. I would be dissappointed because I really wanted the car and you let me down. I would be mad, but I wouldn't sue you. What could I hope to gain? I am not a dealer, but when I am selling a car, like you, I will agree to sell it to anybody that comes to look at it and I will sell it to the first person that pays me for it. I make it quite clear that I will not "hold the car" for anyone because I want it moved. I will not accept a deposit unless it is for the full amount. To me the only contract on a car deal is the bill of sale marked "Paid". Of course, I don't know the full extent of your situation. To me, it sounds like you never told him that you would hold the car for him. "Sorry, I've already sold the car." Oh well. If you did tell him that you would hold the car and then sold it to someone else than what you did was in bad faith. But if this guy is a car broker, what in the heck does he care if he loses out on one deal. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1459 Registered: 12-2001 |
This thread parallels another one philip started on the off-topic section. I urge some discretion here; perhaps the broker, who does visit this board, will post his own version of the story.In any event i agree that Philip should not worry about it. Lawsuits and threats of lawsuits are central to this society, whether or not its a good thing is a different question. For someone not used to it, it can be unnerving. The amount of alleged damage and the transactional cost of proceeding make this a waste of time for the broker, but stranger things have happened. I urged philip to suggest to the broker that they amicably resolve the matter privately, or that both post their grievances here, and let the community address it. But, i agree with Philip at this point that there is no point in aggravating the issue on this board; if the broker, who should remain unnamed for now, wants to post his version, he should do so. If he decides not to do that, and to sue, well, i guess that will come to light here, too. I remain available to informally mediate this if the broker is receptive. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 647 Registered: 1-2001 |
Philip, What follows is not something to worry you more but just to explain the real situation. Even if this would happen, it is very unlikly that you would lose. I'm not a lawyer but you should be aware that you can be sued and if you are, his agent will serve you with a summons to appear in court. Typically, people will use Small Claims court to do this for "losses" under $5000. Most Small Claims courts are set up in such a way that NOTHING needs to be proven before the Plantiff and Defendant meet in court for the first time. This means I could claim anything I wanted to, pay the fees and pull someone into court for what seems to be no good reason. It gets even more complicated if the suit is filed in another state. Be aware & prepared but like everyone has said so far it probably won't get this serious... | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 437 Registered: 8-2002 |
Philip, I too, would like to see the name of the bully you are dealing with. I'm assuming by the threat of suing you (which is bad for public relations), the dealer is a small dealer, rather than a large authorized F-car dealer. There are several issues here. One issue that could make suing you difficult is the venue. If the dealer is in another state than you, the dealer would probably need to file suit in the state you're in. This is because it's presumed that the transaction would take place in your state since that's where the car is, that's where you advertized it for sale and that's where the transaction would have been conducted. You could argue this if necessary to make the dealer's life difficult, presuming he/she doesn't have lawyers already in your state. Although it sounds like a deal-gone-bad, rather than bad-faith dealings, even if the dealer has a legal claim, it could be difficult and expensive for him/her to pursue. FYI, consideration for a contract doesn't always have to be money, but for a stranger in an arms legnth transaction, it would be the best form of evidence. I don't know what your e-mails state, but, I would guess they were only acting as a Broker. There was always the possibility that their end-user would change their mind (inspection, etc...), which could have resulted in the Broker changing their minds. What then, would they have allowed you to sue? If they threaten to sue, use my favorie response....."get in line"! | ||
| Richard Ward (Lomotpk)
New member Username: Lomotpk Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2003 |
Philip, The other 'out' is quite simple. Pull out the 'contract' he sent you, find one item in the document that you find objectionable, and thus you have a case that you never reached a final actionionable agreement. Simply stated, you would have never signed that T's & C's (Terms and Conditions) document. Thus, the presumption that an enforcable contract was in place was a false one, as you had not finished the negotiation stage. I've watched (and killed) many deals end this way, there can be agreement on the overall structure of the deal, but its not over until the paperwork is done, and that often kills the deal. Best of Luck, and I agree that you should not speak with the guy, simply tell him to send all correspondence in written form (fax or letter, NOT email) to your lawyer. I'm sure one of our F-Chat legal brothers will gladly act as an in-box for you. Lomo | ||
| Ira Schwartz (Iraschwartz)
New member Username: Iraschwartz Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2003 |
Philip: A brief chat with a lawyer familiar with contracts and commercial law will set your mind at ease. While I certainly can't give you legal advice in this forum I've been a business lawyer for 27 years and used to teach Contracts and UCC (Commercial Law), and this guy's case is a loser. Now that doesn't mean he can't sue you anyway, but any responsible lawyer will discourage him. He'd be quite unlikely to prevail, for various reasons revolving around, inter alia: (1) the lack of a writing to document the alleged contract(cars are "goods", i.e., movable tangible personal property, and the Uniform Commercial Code's version of the Statute of Frauds requires a writing in order for the contract to be enforceable); and (2) the threshold question of the existence of an agreement to begin with, since the parties contemplated reducing the terms of their tentative negotiations to a written contract. Even if he does sue you, you're cool. | ||
| "The Don" (The_don)
Senior Member Username: The_don Post Number: 5989 Registered: 8-2002 |
KDS, there is a little picure of a piece of paper and a pencil in the upper right corner of the posts. click that to edit. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 66 Registered: 5-2003 |
I forgot to add......that for anyone to do this is downright tasteless if in fact they are merely trying to intimidate someone and don't really have an honest leg to stand on. We have a tough enough time in this business as it is trying to convince some of the people out there that some of us are really straight up. Note to Rob, et al...is there an edit feature for after the fact postings ? EDITED TO ADD.....Doooohhh !!!! | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5185 Registered: 5-2001 |
JScott, good for you! That is the same approach I take and I wish other companies would do the same. This way we could actually prevent most of these dumb suits. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 65 Registered: 5-2003 |
philip.... I am not a lawyer. But, I've played one a lot in court suing people in my former life as a banker.....unfortunately that was on a salary and not a percentage...LOL !!! In any event, what has been said here is the same as the gut feeling I have about this as well. I've sold over 1,000 cars and without a signed contract and a deposit there is nothing for him to go on. Laws vary from state to state I imagine....but nonetheless. How much time transpired between arrival of a deposit and a contract is probably where I would start when it comes to breaking down his/her argument. And, was it previously agreed to and what's considered normal for the nature of this business. Faxes take about 2 minutes IIRC. Fedexed bank drafts 24 hours. Secondly, IIRC slander is not slander if what you say can be proven as true and you don't go out of your way to embelish the story. Merely saying for example that "during the process of preliminary negotiations regarding a car I had for sale so and so threatened to sue me if I didn't fulfill his/her perception of one part of the conversation".........no slander there. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5184 Registered: 5-2001 |
Philip, FerrariChat is a close nit community and we would like to protect others from making mistakes of dealing with dishonest dealers, brokers, and other people. It has in the past prevented others from buying in places that have ripped others off. Has prevented F-Chat members from making mistakes and losing money in such process. I think it is important for us to see your e-mails and pass judgement on that. I would post them if I were you without comment. I am sure they speak for themselves. Let us come to our own conclusion and you have nothing to be worried about. Just do not post your own comment. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 881 Registered: 12-2001 |
Philip, sounds like the guy is just puffing his chest in an attempt to scare you. Agree with the others that it would be nice to know this guys name. Sounds like it's time for another A$$clown award. | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 353 Registered: 2-2003 |
I will wait a little while before I post his name, Sebastian was very helpful....thank you. Martin, I had not signed ANYTHING and our discussions about price were just normal e mails that any and all parties would have asked about prices and conditions......when checking out a car.......guys, thank you for your thoughts....If he and I can agree to disagree, then I won't post his name......if we can't I will post his name, business, all of our emails and everything......so you guys would never deal with him again...........ever............ An attorney advised me that there is no case for slander if what I say is true..........I have absolute proof and truth on my side, he has threatened me with lawsuit, asked for money, and harrassed me....I have all the e mails...I'll see where it goes. thanks everyone. | ||
| Norm (32storm)
New member Username: 32storm Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2003 |
Philip, doesn't sound like any type of agreement was in place verbal, or otherwise with this broker.Let him threaten to sue! If he thinks he has an action, let him step up to the plate and file. Otherwise, let him go f-himself. would be in your best interest to stop communicating with him, and refer all future correspondence to your attorney. As it sounds like this guy is a real gem, it would be nice to know who this individual is. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1053 Registered: 10-2001 |
You can tell us his name. You have not slandered him. All you have said is he thinks he had an agreement with you and you are not sure. That is not slander. You didn't say anything mean or false about him other than you think his threatened lawsuit is wrong, and it worries you. Please warn us...he probably pulls this crap all the time thinking Ferrari owners have money and will buy their way out if they feel threatened. | ||
| j scott leonard (Jscott)
Member Username: Jscott Post Number: 509 Registered: 1-2002 |
I am constantly involved in one kind of legal dispute or another. It goes with the territory of running a fairly large company. If fact, I have an attorney on staff. Don't let this guy intimidate you. Do what is right. If you honestly wronged him, settle with him. If you did nothing wrong, blow him off. As I understand it, a contract requires three elements to be valid. These elements are; offer, acceptance and consideration. If you are lacking any one of the elements, the contract is not valid. I'm not an attorney and maybe one on this forum can comment. If I worried each time someone got an attorney, I would never sleep. BTW, not to give the wrong impression, my company was honored with an excellence in business award for our integrity and reputation. The legal issues I deal with are usually the result of being drawn into a dispute between others but we are always seen as the "deep pockets". I don't roll over for this technique and it has become well known that we are not a soft touch or easy meal ticket. | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 457 Registered: 1-2003 |
Philip, where is this character from? Alert others. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5177 Registered: 5-2001 |
Philip, as a car dealer and sometimes broker I can tell you, you have nothing to worry about. In fact I would send him a nice letter stating if he continues to harass you and files suit you will go after him direct for filing frivilous lawsuits and recoup your $300/h attorney fees. As I said before it is easy to sue today. It is the attitude that you respond that will set the tone. I would not talk to him on the phone and tell him to write it down by e-mail or fax or letter but don't talk to him. Likely you do make a mistake saying something you should not, in writing you can think about it. Not too many people can think quick enough to be on their toes in such conversations. Bottom line: If you have not signed that you will sell him the car for x if he sends a deposit/contract by Z and he has performed then he has no basis to stand on. For a contract to be entered into you have to have "consideration", which is a written instrument with timeline and price and deposit, otherwise it is almost impossible to show that the parties acted in good faith. (my choice of words may be wrong here) Sleep tight fellow chatter. He has nothing. Can you post him mane? Yes, please do so. Maybe even post the e-mails for us to see what you wrote and what he did. As a general note I would not pass judgement on the broker until I see your e-mails and his responses. There is always 3 sides to a story: Your side, his side and the truth! | ||
| adrian low (Audionut)
Member Username: Audionut Post Number: 287 Registered: 4-2003 |
Philip, sorry to hear about your trouble. I've also been threatened with law suits before, all goundless. I think what bothers me most is that ANYONE can sue, and you have to defend whether or not there is a case. I don't know enough about law, but I don't enjoy confrontation. UNTIL I get pushed too far. Fwiw, I believe that my upbringing taught me to let things go, not to take things and issues too seriously. But there is always a line. Anyway, I hope things work out for you. Hang in there. | ||
| Christopher F. (Dallasguy)
Junior Member Username: Dallasguy Post Number: 224 Registered: 10-2002 |
He is threatening to sue if what? You don't go get the car back and sell it to HIM? | ||
| Steven R. Rochlin (Enjoythemusic)
Member Username: Enjoythemusic Post Number: 562 Registered: 4-2002 |
K.I.S.S. = No signed contract, no deal PERIOD PS: no money exchanged hands either. RELAX, enjoy the drive :-) | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2352 Registered: 4-2002 |
PHILIP CEASE ALL COMMUNICATIONS WITH HIM NOW AND DIRECT MY EMAIL OR MY # TO HIM FOE FURTHER DISCUSSIONS BRUCE | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 352 Registered: 2-2003 |
Bruce, Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. I had to sell my car, and some of you know from other threads, I have been dealing with a lot of stuff in my life lately....I hope you are right, this guy is so aggressive, and zealous, when you're not used to it, it is very upsetting. Thanks again. Sebastion, I will be in touch. Thank you. | ||
| Sebastian (Sjblaw)
New member Username: Sjblaw Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2003 |
Actually, I am a criminal defense lawyer, so if you break down and decide to stab him, or if you are a little more passive and decide to languish in a bottle of vodka and drive your car to clear your head over all this, then I can give you some competent advice. But I would be glad to talk with you... email: [email protected] | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2351 Registered: 4-2002 |
PHILIP CHILL MY FRIEND...ENJOY LIFE AND DONT WORRY.. HE HAS NO GRONDS FOR ANYTHING..WORD OF MOUTH.. NO WITNESSES NO WRITTEN ANYTHING.. IN MY BUSINESS I HAVE BEEN THREATENED NUMEROUS TIMES..NOTHING PREVAILED...ENJOY LIFE BEST, BRUCE | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 351 Registered: 2-2003 |
I would like to give you all this persons name, but he has said he'd sue me for slander...is it slander to say..."soandso is threatning to sue me"....what if I just post his e mails and you guys read them on your own. I would really like to inform and protect anyone else from having to suffer through anything like this. | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 349 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sebastian, I see you are an attorney... May I call you or P.M. you and give you the particulars and speak with you more in depth.....it would mean a lot to me....I'm 32 years old and new to all of this....I couldn't sleep much at all last night. | ||
| Sebastian (Sjblaw)
New member Username: Sjblaw Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2003 |
Place this joker on your "pay no mind" list, and rest easy. I would also cease communication with him, before he starts to bait you into writing or saying something which could impute knowledge of a business agreement... but even then, he does not have a foot to stand on. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Advanced Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 4168 Registered: 9-2001 |
no lawyer but come on, don't worry about it, talk is cheap. is he going to sue you for performance - ie you must sell the car to him? come on. Is he suing for damages? what signficant harm has he suffered. gimmie a break. Martin - you up to your old tricks again? | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 347 Registered: 2-2003 |
In our e mails he said he wanted to buy it....I said he could buy it....but he kept saying he'd send me a contract.......he sent the contract after the car was sold.....he's saying that in the e mails because he said he wanted it, and because I said that I wanted to sell it to him, that entitles him to the car.......but I got lots of e mails on my ad.....each person said they wanted it, I told everyone I wanted to sell it to them...of course I wanted to sell it to them. But this guy never came to see it, kept telling me he'd send me a contract and never put down a deposit. Now he is saying that our e mails constituted a contract...However, if that's the case, then why did he send me a "real contract" after the car was sold............it's really a night mare.....most of us know this guys name.....not a good way to do business....I told him I feel really bad about things, now he says if I send him some money he won't sue me.....is this extortion......anyone? | ||
| Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 2350 Registered: 4-2002 |
PHIL. NO CONTRACT, NO DEPOSIT...WORD OF MOUTH MEANS NUTIN IN THE COURT OF LAW..ANY ONE CAN SUE.. SCREW HIM. REST AT NIGHT MY FRIEND, BRUCE | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Junior Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 175 Registered: 9-2002 |
Phillip, the guys just trying it on, as long as you didnt agree to sell him the car, just check through your e-mail and try to find anything that he could use in his agrument, was the car advertised if so then his comments and approach would seem to be just enquiries, Good luck sure it'll all come out OK | ||
| philip (Fanatic1)
Member Username: Fanatic1 Post Number: 345 Registered: 2-2003 |
Guys Please help me with this. There is a car broker who is threatning to sue me..........we didn't have a contract, no deposit and he'd never even seen the car......he's saying that through e mails he had agreed to buy it......so had 2 other people, but they didn't buy it either.......now because I didn't sell him the car, he is threatning to sue me!! This is a car broker...I have talked to one of the lawyers on this forum, and he told me not to worry about it and gave me some advice........anyone else in here? Please contact me via P.M. I'd really like to save anyone else from going through this. |