| Author |
Message |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 792
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 9:27 pm: | |
Absolutely, and have a great dinner with the missus 
Pete |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 155
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 9:24 pm: | |
Now there's a project! I am really excited about Jame's work. It is great to be a part of it in a small way here on F-Chat.
I guess I lied about my last post being my last post! Have a good one Pete - off to dinner with the missus. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 791
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 9:17 pm: | |
David,
Welcome to the world of collectables. Can you imagine the responsibility that Jim has on his shoulders restoring a rare P3/4.
If you own a rare Ferrari, there are thousands of experts around the world that know exactly how it should be ... one of the curses of owning such a car.
Note: My comments are just opinions David, not orders
Pete |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 154
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 9:13 pm: | |
Pete - This is my last post on this issue. Read my posts - I agree with you. I would not hack a Ferrari. However, I dont appreciate you or JRV or whoever it is telling me what I should and shouldn't do. That is the way you are coming across - witness the following.
quote:In other words, if you do not like an old Ferrari DON'T buy it, as there are plenty that are more than happy to live with the restrictions.
|
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 789
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 8:54 pm: | |
Fine David,
Yes it is a free world, but do not expect me, or almost all of the Ferrari enthusiasts to support hacking of a Ferrari.
This is a Ferrari enthusiasts site ... not a Ferrari hackers site. So free world also gives me the right to say that I think it is wrong.
In other words, if you do not like an old Ferrari DON'T buy it, as there are plenty that are more than happy to live with the restrictions.
Quite honestly David you are being silly on this one. All I am saying is if they are not prepared to alter their driving styles to suit the older car, then please do not buy it, buy one that does what you want it to.
Any Ferrari is more than a car to many, so I do not support people modifying them ... eventually that person dies and the art has been tarnished due to ONE persons views. Imagine if I bought a 250GTO and stuck a Chevy small block in her, or imagine the out cry if Jim decided to put a Chevy in his P4. Old Ferraris are important parts of motoring history not just old cars to hack as you please ... especially the rare ones.
So modify if you must, but be prepared to be shunned by the rest of the Ferrari community, and for the resale value of that car to hit rock bottom!
Pete |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 151
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 8:32 pm: | |
quote:>>>If they have drum brakes, learn to keep a longer gap in front of you ... ie. change your modern driving habits to suit the classic ... don't hack the classic!
That is where JRV is coming from. <<<
EXACTLY !!!!
And that is my point Exactly. You are telling them what to do - learn to keep a longer gap in front of you; change your driving habits. If they dont want to - who are you or any of us to tell them what to do. If you want to learn to keep a longer gap, if you want to change your driving habits - do it. Don't preach and tell others what to do. It is not becoming. |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 150
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 8:22 pm: | |
Pete
quote:Some of us get upset with the idea of modifying an old Ferrari. Come on we all love them or we would not be posting on this site ... and that includes new Ferraris.
But if I bought a F360 and decided to change the suspension to suit MY requirements ... say made it like a 4x4, you guys would be extremely pissed
What is the difference?
The difference is that you and JRV may think its stupid or nuts or whatever to modify a new or an old F-car. I agree with you. However, its a free world. If someone chooses to do something with their car, that's what they want to do. My point is - don't try and impose your taste, feelings, on them and tell them that their taste is wrong.
That's the difference between have a spirited and informed debate vs. trying to convince me what I like or what I should do. Not to open a can of worms but it reminds me of someone showing up at my door and trying to convince me to change religions. Not going to happen. That's different to a friend sitting down with me and discussing the differences between two religions. Old car - new car. Modify the car, dont modify the car. Religion. Each to his own. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 2063
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 8:15 pm: | |
>>>If they have drum brakes, learn to keep a longer gap in front of you ... ie. change your modern driving habits to suit the classic ... don't hack the classic!
That is where JRV is coming from. <<<
EXACTLY !!!!
Thank You Pete !!
And if someone refuses to learn how to use an old car ..... fine....but don't bash the car or the people who don't mind learning something new!!!!
|
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 2062
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 8:09 pm: | |
>>No one here has bashed old cars<<
I disagree with you, is that allowed here?
This thread is filled with excuses and justifications for new cars, by trying to diminish and/or demean what Old Cars represent. It is not I that can't see the purpose, beauty and relivance of BOTH...so who could it be that's missing out on having the ability to see both for what they are?
I jump from new to old and back again with ease, but I recognize what each represents and I'm mature enough to take each at face value and not want or expect either to be what it's not!!!
{} |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 788
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
David,
quote:Some like Faisal have said they would make minor tweaks. You seem to take issue with that approach - witness the Domino crack. You seem to be trying to tell/convince them what is fun (or that they should not order Dominos).
Some of us get upset with the idea of modifying an old Ferrari. Come on we all love them or we would not be posting on this site ... and that includes new Ferraris.
But if I bought a F360 and decided to change the suspension to suit MY requirements ... say made it like a 4x4, you guys would be extremely pissed.
What is the difference?
Personally anybody that does anything but safety related modifications to a 250/275/365 series Ferrari is getting close to ruining a piece of art. And by safety related I mean safety belts, dual circuit brakes and that is it. If they have drum brakes, learn to keep a longer gap in front of you ... ie. change your modern driving habits to suit the classic ... don't hack the classic!
That is where JRV is coming from.
Pete |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1781
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 7:55 pm: | |
Willis,
I don't know how much better of an apology than >>I'm sorry<< I can muster. Maybe you're the one deriving malice from the posts?
Cheers |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 148
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 7:54 pm: | |
Taek - That's why I said Tongue in Cheek with respect to your support for Allan. I dont think that there are a lot of people on this site that think badly of Lambo's. I think they are great cars. I prefer F-cars but I also like Lambo's. It is hard to have a meaningful dialogue with someone about the differences between the cars/marques when it gets nasty and personal e.g. girly 360 etc, tractor heritage etc.
I would be psyched if you actually get to buy the Lambo and walk us through the restoration process. Kinda like James G. with the P4. That's exciting stuff.
JRV - I think you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. "Where is the thrill and excitement in ordering Dominoes pizza compared to travelling to an exotic place at personal risk and lack of comfort to eat some exotic new meal for the first time." Thats your opinion. If someone chooses to buy a 360 (Domino's in your analogy), that's what they choose. They may derive their enjoyment in different ways to you. No one here has bashed old cars. Some have said they cant afford the time or money to restore/keep them up. Some like Faisal have said they would make minor tweaks. You seem to take issue with that approach - witness the Domino crack. You seem to be trying to tell/convince them what is fun (or that they should not order Dominos). The difference is, when I read their posts, they dont seem to be trying to convince you what is fun or what to do. |
PSk (Psk)
Member
Username: Psk
Post Number: 786
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 7:45 pm: | |
To go back to the original topic, I personally think the new Ferraris are too fast to be road cars. To design a suspension system correctly for 180mph+ means that the spring frequencies will not be correct for legal and normal everyday speeds.
Thus 95% of the time you will driving outside of this range and thus not experiencing the car at its best.
Therefore the idea alternative is to buy a car which is designed to travel at more usable speeds, hence the look at an old car direction.
The problem with this with Ferraris is that gets real expensive, and thus the best cars that would fit this bill would be:
246 Dino.
Any 308.
Maybe a 275 GTB 2 cam ... but might be too expensive.
250 GT 2+2, actually any 2+2.
None of the above cars need suspension improvements to make them drive better, or any massive modifications to make them more reliable.
In my opinion any modification that detracts from the personality of the car is a bad modification. We can all probably do a better job than Ferrari did back then, nowadays ... but will the end result just feel like driving 95% of modern over efficient sh!t boxes. After all the suspension design of a 2003 Toyota Corolla is probably light years ahead of all those Ferraris I list above, but I sure don't want to make any of them feel like driving a Toyota Corolla
I think Dan has hit on the reason that the 550/575s are being sold in favour of other cars ... simply they are too fast!
Pete
|
Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 1408
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
As for the original post, I agree with Dan.
Ideal solution would be to have both new and old Ferraris in the garage. |
matt green (Mattg)
New member
Username: Mattg
Post Number: 38
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 7:17 pm: | |
like most things human made. there are great years and bad years. 95 was a great year for cars. 69, 71, and 89 as well.... |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 1406
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 7:12 pm: | |
Taek-Ho, I wrote, "The 360 is the correct car FOR MY CURRENT NEEDS". No where did I bash old car characteristics. You will not find any past posts from me where I dis classic cars. Please don't derive malice where there's none. |
Kevin Butler (Challenge)
Junior Member
Username: Challenge
Post Number: 184
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 4:39 pm: | |
I'll take the aesthetics of a 348,355,360,F40 over any historically relevant F-car. I get a kick out of the Historic Challenge cars (especially the sound), and it is very cool to see a 250 SWB ripping it up on the track. From a financial standpoint I'd rather have an old classic. But nothing makes me sit up and pay attention like seeing the low-slung, glossy red or yellow shape of a modern F-car approaching when driving on an ordinary road.
VOTE: NEW |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 2060
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 4:14 pm: | |
>>JRV. You seem to have a absolute view of old cars with no room for other opinions. <<
No not it at all.
If one owns an old car it's theirs to do with as one pleases. I was adressing the issue of fun!!!
How you came to your conclusions I have no idea.
The Jag I was driving which I mentioned has plenty of updates to make it safe & FUN.
But it's still not FUN if having ones tootoo powdered is a requirement...the updates stopped short of certian "comforts". Like camping, sleeping in a tent isn't cheating, but if one requires a biday...well?
{} |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1780
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 4:13 pm: | |
David,
I really don't think I have to say this again, but...
I'm not a supporter of Allan. I think he is deservedly yet harshly judged even in the few times he makes meaningful posts. I have the misfortune, in this forum, to be a supporter of the marque he defends. I like to throw a more educated approach as to why Lamborghini should not be bashed, but appreciated. As a matter of fact, I don't think Allan is a good representation of a Lamborghini owner. Unfortunately there aren't many on this board who speak up on behalf of Lamborghini. Seeing as to how there are many enthusiasts out here I would hate for them to have a negative perception of a great marque because of the inflamatory responses Allan merits.
Kuzi,
A Ferrari eh? Don't worry, I'm on the hunt, although I just ran into a "speed bump" that has taken a bit of a toll on the old "fun fund".
Cheers |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 2059
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
>>The 360 is the perfect starter Ferrari for me. All I want is a car that I can hop in and enjoy almost daily with minimum fuss. But it's not "the lazy way out" as you're implying.<<
Willis, reread your first post. It states you recieve lambasting "not just here BUT AT CLUB EVENTS" can someone explain this.
Then you turn around and tell me you only want to drive down the road unimpeaded by old car character.
Much the same switching back and forth Faisal is fond of.
You asked a question I answered. If you don't like the answer I'm terribly sorry. Doesn't change it though.
I might remind all you new car kinda guys that the TITLE of this thread is "The PROBLEM With NEW CARS". Not WHY I CAN"T/WON'T/DON'T Want to be bothered With Old Cars.
{}
We all are well aware of WHY Ferrari now makes Automatic Sports Cars.
{}
|
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 147
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 3:08 pm: | |
Taek - A Lambo 350GT. That's cool. No wonder you go easy on Allan!! I wont hold it against you - (tongue in cheek)
Again - good luck. |
Kuzi (Kzma)
Member
Username: Kzma
Post Number: 312
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 3:06 pm: | |
Taek, I vote for Ferrari!
Dan, how bout a 246GTS? |
Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member
Username: Fuiszt
Post Number: 113
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 3:03 pm: | |
I drove my 64 330 to work this week in DC traffic. Certainly more exciting than driving around with a modern car. You have to watch the gauges, etc, and anticipate traffic because the car will sit at about 5 lights in a row without a 1/4 mile of driving to cool it down. Plus you get to smell like gasoline, exhaust, oil and leather for the whole work day. I think old vs new is really about knowing that I can't explore the limits of a 550 or a 355 on the way to work without either killing somebody or going to jail, but I can get the 330 operating close to its limits and not trigger someone to call 911 about a crazy guy in a black ferrari. |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1779
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:53 pm: | |
David,
http://www.ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/132929/286222.html
I'm still crossing my fingers for this stupid deal to go through. Then after it's done, I'm thinking Ferrari or Miura.
Cheers |
ryan (Ferrari_kid)
New member
Username: Ferrari_kid
Post Number: 15
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:49 pm: | |
those pics are really great. i thought i ran into a 250GT Cali Spyder in hawaii once. the bugger was sitting there at a stop light waiting to make a left turn. i didn't get a very good look at it but i couldn't possibly believe it was the actual car, too rare. i didn't know how to confirm it either, especially without talking to the owner. but if that really was the 250GT Cali then all of the excitment i built up had a perfectly fine explanation. |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 145
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
Taek - Good luck, sounds like a great opportunity. If you dont mind sharing what "older" car you are interested in restoring. If not - that's OK too. I was just curious given that you seem to have an appreciation for several different marques.
|
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1777
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:39 pm: | |
David,
>>Then, of course, you have exceptions to the rule...Like myself. A wannabe old car guy. I've had plenty of opportunity to jump into the game, but have so far come up dry. I'm just so anal, obsessive compulsive, that I always find something wrong with the car in question. Sort of like the person who has a vision of drawing something perfect but is so consumed by figuring out what they need to draw that they never get started.
New cars are easy.<<
From an earlier post of mine. What I mean to say is that I don't have the sack to practice what I preach. But I'm hoping to remedy this within the next couple of months. I am looking into an older car to restore, just need to get the seller to want to sell (I'm close!).
Cheers |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1776
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
Willis,
Sorry I misunderstood your post. Personally I haven't found any animosity between new and classic guys.
Cheers |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:11 pm: | |
Lou - great post - agree completely. Before, someone jumps down my throat - I am saying that I would be personally fine with making some changes to improve braking and safety. Not that everyone should make those changes and some would resent them. Again each to their own.
Taek, when are you going to get an older one? You have a brand new TT and no old one vs. a civic and an old one? just teasing! |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 1405
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:11 pm: | |
Taek-Ho, There's no need to explain to me about the appeal of classic cars. I already said I like them. Always have. Perhaps you and JRV are reading something into my posts that somehow, as a new car owner, that I do not understand.
The only question I had was why some classic owners are so vocal about their dislike for the new cars. I have yet to meet a new model owner who does not lust after the classic stuff. |
Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 1134
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:09 pm: | |
Holy crap...this thread exploded! I'm gonna be busy reading for a while!
--Dan
Faisal: GORGEOUS pictures. Now i just need the extra 900k! |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1775
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:07 pm: | |
Lou,
I think there was an implication for road use.
Whenever you go racing, every possible provision for safety should be made.
Cheers |
Lou B (Toby91)
Junior Member
Username: Toby91
Post Number: 244
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 2:02 pm: | |
JRV. You seem to have a absolute view of old cars with no room for other opinions. I see nothing wrong "inhancing" a 50's car for saftey and reliability. I am currently restoring and enhancing a XK150 for vintage rallying with upgraded brakes, aluminum radiator and fan, oil cooler, ignition, 3 point seat belts etc. Want to enjoy the 1000-1500 mile driving experience without overheating and wondering if the brakes will fade on fast switchback downhills. It will look original except for the seatbelts but be a much, much more usable rally car. |
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1774
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 1:53 pm: | |
I think one of the missing elements here is choice. You can have both, you know. It's not a one or the other sacrifice. There is something to be said about how you would allocate your money though. If I had 200k to spend on a car, I wouldn't buy a new 200k car. I'd buy a classic car that would leave me less 180k after everything and spend 20k on a bucket newer car (read: Civic/Corolla/etc).
Willis,
There's nothing wrong with choosing modern machinery. They're great. It's just that I agree that you do sacrifice a bit of charisma with the car. Appreciation of classics is not just having the fortitude or masochistic drive to suffer inadequacies. It's just that I feel that the look of older cars is much nicer. The way they built them back them is different. They sound better and they're almost like a tool. You are in complete control of the machine. There's no computer brain modulating brakes or fuel. There's something real visceral about the whole experience. Cars nowadays detatch the driver so much from the driving experience that it leaves a lot to be desired. I mean, look at Dan. 3 wks with a 550 and he's ready for something else.
Cheers |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 143
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 1:41 pm: | |
I dont read where Faisal bashes old cars. He just stated what he would do with an older car to make a few minor improvements. That's his perogogative and he is not trying to force it on JRV or anyone else. Its his preference. He didn't ask anyone to do it to their car. If a group prefers older cars great - if a group prefers newer cars - great too. Its like debating blondes and brunettes. If you think a car with all original specs and equipment is the way to go - thats your own opinion.
I personally think the older cars are cooler - but I would probably never buy one. I am not handy around cars, dont have the time, and it would not suit my life right now. I would buy a newer one - 97-99 either 355 or 550.
|
Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 1404
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 1:13 pm: | |
JRV, I understand the appeal of the classics. But everyone pick their car to fit their circumstances. The 360 is the perfect starter Ferrari for me. All I want is a car that I can hop in and enjoy almost daily with minimum fuss. But it's not "the lazy way out" as you're implying. The 360 is the correct choice for my current needs. |
Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member
Username: Hugh
Post Number: 1130
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 12:51 pm: | |
I'm usually pretty stupid, so forgive me. But, I think all this old v. new really is trite. Sure, newer cars have lost a little "charisma" (or so some say),but I think that a lot of the people that lambast the newer cars are lovesick with nostaligia, and it's not neccessarily that the older car is better, it's just that, honestly... the grass is always greener. People say "oh, gee.. it'd be so great to drive such and such a car instead of this boring modern car..." and then they get it, and say "god, the brakes suck, it's got more body roll than a geo, when'd they stop using bricks as tires, the brakes just overheated (again), and the carbs keep flooding..."
I got my fill of "nostalgia" with vintage bikes (triumph bonneville, norton commando & atlas, etc.), and the day I upgraded to a "modern" bike ( a ducati, yes, i'm a masochist) it was a god send. No more dicking with carbs, or that rats nest of a wiring harness made by Lucifer, err, Lucas electric co. (although I did miss my sometimes working Smiths speedo), etc.
I love the older cars very much, but I don't think
it's fair to compare/contrast b/c it's essentially the same degree of conviction; if you want a GOOD vintage ride it's a labor of love; if you want to make your modern car YOURS, it's a labor of love.
PS: In my humble opinion, most "new" cars aren't really driven. Dan, take your 550 to PIR for a day, it'll turn into a whole new car. |
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