| Author | Message | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2058 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>For outright fun, give me an older car with just the bare essentials.<< Dom, that was the original question, what's outright fun at 40-50-60-70- mph instead of 150-160-170-180 mph...and I said 50's cars..the threadgot a little far afield when some old car bashing errupted. {  }. The point about making the money the hard way or the easy way doesn't neccesarily apply to whether one spends it on challenging venues or easy venues. The point is, does one choose to challenge himself for fun and adrenalin or prefer to pass. It's pefectly OK to pass...but it'snot realistic or fair to bash challenges just because one prefers to pass. | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Member Username: Dom Post Number: 327 Registered: 11-2002 |
JRV, I agree and disagree. It does take some sacrifices to shell out $250 grand for a car. I can't do it. I'd have to sell my house, my wife would divorce me, etc., etc. I'm sure some people are born rich and can just lift a finger to buy one, but my guess is that most people who can afford a new ferrari have worked their butts off for it. For a daily driver, I prefer a modern car, with the convenience of radio/CD, AC, antilock brakes, etc. For outright fun, give me an older car with just the bare essentials. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1083 Registered: 10-2001 |
JRV nailed it for my passion for old cars, except I do like new cars too! I love turning the key and it starts, turn on A/C and I'm cool, sit in traffic and not glance at my temp gauge every 10 seconds...and if it were a Ferrari 550 or 360 so much the better! No, I don't look down on new cars at all. Except at a concourse where all they did was wax it, but that's a different issue. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2057 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>What I don't understand is why we new model owners get constant lambasting from the classic guys? Not only here but also at club events. Feels like we've done something wrong by buying a new car. Care to enlighten?<< Willis, I'm sure I can't say it as well as some others here but let me take a stab at. To own and drive Old Cars requires sacrifice. One has to be willing to give up personal comfort and the path of least resistance and be willing to delve into life out of the box. To own new shiny requires no more than a phone call, almost as easy as ordering Dominos pizza. Where is the thrill and excitement in ordering Dominoes pizza compared to travelling to an exotic place at personal risk and lack of comfort to eat some exotic new meal for the first time. There are those that stand at the bottom of Mt. Everest ready for a climb to the top understanding it won't be comfortable and every step will be Uphill, yet the thrill lures them on, then there are those that stand at the bottom of Mt. Everest and think,with MY Money I can assemble a Fleet of Bulldozers and flatten this Mountian out stand on the top, without a single uphill step, never lift a finger and all from an air conditioned office. Old cars require the kind of personal attention and effort of Climbing the Mountian, New provides safety and Comfort purchased to avoid climbing the mountian. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1403 Registered: 8-2001 |
I like both old and new. I have a newer Ferrari now but like to get into a classic (Daytona or earlier) at some point when I have the time to tinker. What I don't understand is why we new model owners get constant lambasting from the classic guys? Not only here but also at club events. Feels like we've done something wrong by buying a new car. Care to enlighten? | ||
| Edward (Edward_96gts)
Junior Member Username: Edward_96gts Post Number: 74 Registered: 8-2002 |
JRV, You just described a Viper to-the-tee! They are awesome machines that are under appreciated. | ||
| Sean F (Agracer)
Member Username: Agracer Post Number: 285 Registered: 2-2003 |
I've never driven anything that was as much fun as my FF2000 car. No computers, just an engine, 4-non-synchro'd gears (and reverse), a carb., disk brakes, adjustable shockes, light wheels and slicks. It was simple, and fun. Maybe that's part of the reason behind my Carb 308 search. Ok, maybe $$ has a little to do with it! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2056 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>First man to 400, 500, 600 mph, tons of other records, interesting car development, interesting arrangements with sponsors, etc. Definitely one of my heroes.<< AWSOME Individual (and Team) Accomplishments!!!!! And I've never read any complaints from guys like him that gee it was ok but I wasn't comfortable. There are realistic people and unrealitic people in this world and every flavor in between. For those who don't need a car that powders their tootoo every time they get in one, I highly recomend some of the old stuff. No Computers, No Traction Control, No ABS Brakes, No Power Everything, No TooToo Powdering...just good FUN FUN FUN going back in time when to go fast meant paying attention and complete participation from the driver....FUN slow...SCARY FUN Fast...and any way you slice it a Smile A Minute. | ||
| rich (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 424 Registered: 10-2001 |
I was at Craig Breedlove's shop a year or so ago poking around with a friend who had helped build the last land speed record car (which was still there in the shop). Craig drove in, having just returned from Mexico, in a large pickup truck (ford f150? dodge ram? don't remember). He then took us to dinner - we all rode in my friend's '73 Duster. Breedlove was a really nice guy who of course has many interesting stories. First man to 400, 500, 600 mph, tons of other records, interesting car development, interesting arrangements with sponsors, etc. Definitely one of my heroes. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 709 Registered: 3-2003 |
JRV, there's a difference in how we are interpreting my statement(s). Since I made them, I think I am better qualified to comment on what I meant. You say old cars are cool and I say old cars are cool, but you seem to have a problem with me saying it. Since you insist on deriving meanings that don't exist, inferences I didn't make, and emphasis that I didn't place, this is a pointless discussion. As it's important for you to have the last word, make sure you post a reply. This exchange is over, as far as I am concerned. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2129 Registered: 10-2002 |
John The changes I made to my MK-IV are very minimal. Softer springs, softer pads, electric cooling fans,larger water pump and alternator pulleys, a spa speedo. All of these changes could be put back in a day. While it is now drivable on the street it's not quite as civilized as my Maser coupe or my wife's Turbo Cayenne... Driving these cars on the street reminds me of flying over the jungle in a Heuy as the rebels tried to shoot you down. Nothing quite like it. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2054 Registered: 11-2002 |
We can Thank Pete for pointing out your own words Faisil!!! Now Faisil,...listen up, ...If you want to be comfortable there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, in fact most people do, which is why they BUY NEW, and Drive New. What you should have simply said was you don't like Old Cars because...they don't blend with your own personall preferences...but instead you tried to attack old cars as your justification...next time don't try to BS me in a converstion and the discussion will go differently!!! OLD CARS ARE COOL, WAYYYY COOOOOL !!!! >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- quote: JRV, would it be a crime to upgrade the suspension and brakes and sacrifice some originality for performance and **comfort?** -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1082 Registered: 10-2001 |
You know, if you have a 1950's era sports car, it's just not going to compare to something more modern in performance. People who own and drive them aren't looking for a "21st century exotic" experience either. My 1972 car is modern enough to still have a legitimate driving thrill in today's world, so there are compromises I make on it that I'd never do on a 1950's era car. Like I've said, I do still want to retain the charactor of what it was intended to be however so I would never do any mods to try to get it to compare to a modern sports car. I think we're all on the same page there. Would anyone here put a Navistar engine in a 246 because it would be less maintainence (assuming you could of course)? | ||
| Vincent (Vincent348)
Member Username: Vincent348 Post Number: 907 Registered: 4-2003 |
Wow, fnatastic that this is even being debated! Ben, I'm with you, give me a chance and I'd jump at any of those cars. My dream is a 246, it's not 50's, but man it does something for me. I can't wait to drive one. who knows when it will be in the garage. Dan, I'm not feeling too sorry, but get what you want, drive some more cars, and enjoy what you have. Vincent. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 790 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dan, Dr. Shelbee might be on to something here. Maybe another flavor will help to appease the palate | ||
| Dr. Shelbee (Shelbee)
Member Username: Shelbee Post Number: 441 Registered: 12-2002 |
Dan, It is called addiction as I post before. You satisfied with your 550, you want something BETTER. Keep your 550 and get the 360 spider with tubi?? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 785 Registered: 11-2002 |
Note: Don't close your eyes for too long Pete | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 784 Registered: 11-2002 |
Faisal, Point taken, but I was arguing my own opinion, and then noticed that JRV was agreeing with me. In the end an old car should feel like (EDIT) the original (END EDIT) car, not just look like one. I know of many companies nowadays that produce Mk2 Jaguars with modern drive train, etc. and yes I bet they are great to drive ... but their soul has been replaced and they are just silolet (sp?) Mk2 Jags now, not the real thing. Thus to redesign the suspension on an old Ferrari would ruin the whole driving experience IMO. For example, close your eyes and you could be driving any old modern crap box. What a crying shame IMO. Pete | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 707 Registered: 3-2003 |
All reasonable statements, and hardly the whining about comfort your pal JRV is alluding to. And whose bandwagon you jumped on. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 783 Registered: 11-2002 |
Faisal,
Don't really want to get into this argument, but there is what you said. Also:
Thus I pointed out that these cars did not wallow when new ... thus they have been improperly restored. Pete | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 706 Registered: 3-2003 |
JRV, please point out which post of mine references comfort over everything else. Either quote it, or write down the time it was posted so I can find it. Obviously, you are never wrong, so I must have made this post. But somehow I can't seem to find it. PSK, instead of yapping along with JRV, maybe you can post this information if it's too much effort for him? Oh, another | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 705 Registered: 3-2003 |
No, I don't remember. Because I never said anything about comfort in the context you seem to imply. Learn to read. Performance and comfort...get it? Nice combo, I think. Oh, | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1771 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pete, >>If I had a 250 SWB in my garage, I would probably not leave the garage for a couple of weeks (except for drives )<< I'd try to put 15k miles the first year. >>I would just lie on a floor creaper and stare at the mechanics of the car<< I'd put it on a lift and make it my own 4 post bedframe. Can you think of a more pleasant way to conjure up nice dreams? hehehe Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2053 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Or do you think all cars should be driven at 10/10ths all the time, everywhere?<< Who said anything about 10-10ths? I mentioned to DAN per his original question that if he wants thrills at 70-80 mph 50's cars will get him there. Then you started whining about not being comfortable in 50;s cars...remember!?!?! { } | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 703 Registered: 3-2003 |
PSK, you seem to have convinced yourself that I drove cars that were improperly restored. Then you took this groundless assumption and moved on to your next assumption. That JRV speaks for me when he says that, for me, it's about comfort and making old cars match my (nonexistent) '02 BMW. JRV, Craig Breedlove, Chuck Yeager (I am presuming they are your heroes)--how much time have you spent with them? What do you know of their driving preferences outside their record-breaking events? Or do you think all cars should be driven at 10/10ths all the time, everywhere? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2052 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Well buy a comfortable new car then ... don't f**k an old car and turn it into one of those old looking on the outside with fancy stuff underneath. That is worst than a replica! << That's EXACTLY what I suggested they do, while they're watching "Brave New World" on their dash mounted DVD TV Screen and GPS keeps them from getting lost. { } FK, those are all you're words...you were pointing out how feeling "comfortable" is your only prerequisite to your comfort. Have you thought about starting your own car company? You seem to know exactly where that tiny little sweet spot to "comfort" lies. The itsy bitsy zone. { } | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 636 Registered: 6-2002 |
Woah, what does the coffee cup with the Cartoon-Big Red Exclimation Point mean? Mmmyep, it means "Hey, knock it off and go drive, forumites!" Best! Ben. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 702 Registered: 3-2003 |
JRV, I suppose we shouldn't discuss space exploration unless we are astronauts or talk politics unless we are elected president either. Way to chop up my sentences and totally change the meaning around to fit your purposes. You should try your hand at writing State of the Union speeches. Mr. Rogers just called. He says you need a good jolly good rogering. And Big Bird just flipped you a birdie. [ ] | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 782 Registered: 11-2002 |
JRV,
Well buy a comfortable new car then ... don't f**k an old car and turn it into one of those old looking on the outside with fancy stuff underneath. That is worst than a replica! Ben, Oh yes. Very much so. If I had a 250 SWB in my garage, I would probably not leave the garage for a couple of weeks (except for drives ) ... I would just lie on a floor creaper and stare at the mechanics of the car Pete | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1770 Registered: 11-2002 |
50s cars?! HA! You rookies! Try driving a pre war Bentley with straight cut gears and a steering wheel that looks like it belongs in a boat. You need forearms like Popeye's to muscle those beasts around the track, much less around town. Every time you shift it sounds like the car is going to explode! And that's when you get it right! Redline? Whazzat? Oh yeah, and the loud pedal is in the middle. I once saw a guy blasting down a freeway at around 70mph in such a car. Pouring rain. That's when those funny goggles and leather cap don't seem so ridiculous. Awe inspiring to say the least. And the SOUND. It's almost like armaggedon is around the next bend. Anyway, back to the discussion... Looks like we are indeed talking about the same thing. Especially if we are talking about "new" 50s cars. A properly sorted "new" 250GT SWB, especially the Symbolic car pictured, is good enough to push in the track. Meaning...you guessed it. Good enough to pick up a dozen eggs in public roads. Now the real challenge is to get the eggs back home safely without cracking them while you whip that sucker around turns! Cheers | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 635 Registered: 6-2002 |
Pete- agree 1,000%. And I frankly think JR is on the same page with all of us. They're not talking about putting in heated seats mind you Just maybe new custom-valved Ohlins ajustable shocks that are rebuildable or such. Maybe not quite orgional tyres that are less likely to shread at speed (maybe not, depends on the car.) and bigger ventelated disc brakes if needed. JR- put down the keyboard, and go take one of your many fine automobiles out for a run, sounds like you've had a long day man! When you get back, you'll see how little this internet crap matters I lust after the chance to expierence these automobiles first hand. -Ben. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2051 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pete, These guys are trying to compare 50's sports cars with their nice safe "comfortable" 02 BMWs..simple as that. It's not about the cars at all it's about being "comfortable". | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 780 Registered: 11-2002 |
JRV is right guys NEW 50's cars DID not wallow. Suspension design since the 50's has not improved that much (with the exception of the common use of independent rear suspension) ... but shocks have, and no matter how old the car is they have to be replaced continously. It always amazes me that somebody drives an old car and then they think that ALL the old cars drive like that. Der, you have to take into account the quality or lack of in the restoration. If they have reused any spring or shock (unless it was rebuilt) then the restoration SUCKED bad, and they should be completely ashamed of themselves ... that includes valve springs. Springs age and cannot run forever ... only option is to replace. Most shocks cannot be opened to be restored so they also have to be binned. Do not judge a car by driving a restored version UNLESS they have also restored the mechanics of the car PROPERLY ... whcih 95% of restorations don't bother with because you do not get points on whether it drives like it originally did. Pete | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2050 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>I don't have one because <<>>it was based on these drives that I made my comment about wallowing suspensions, weak brakes, etc.<< >>drove a 1000 hp Mercedes Lotec last month too. For two blocks. It was undriveable>> Calling Mr. Rogers & Big Bird!!! { } | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 779 Registered: 11-2002 |
Faisal,
Those cars, with the exception of the Rolls (which comes with wallowy suspension as standard fitment) were not correctly maintained. SImple as that, they were poseur cars because the owners did not do the maintenance ... and now you are rubbishing all 50's cars because the ones your drove were incorrectly maintained. Shocks only last about 10,000 miles then they are for the bin. Springs also do not last forever and MUST be replaced. Drive a correctly restored 50's car and it will drive much better than those bad examples, I bet. A restoration is not about shiny paint but the WHOLE car needs to be restored. Pete | ||
| Justin (Justin)
New member Username: Justin Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2003 |
JRV, Can't say I've had the pleasure of driving a 50's Ferrari. I have, however, had the pleasure of driving other 50's cars by Aston as well as riding in various other marques. No, I don't plan to own one in the next year or even next couple of years. I'll have to remember in the future that I don't have a valid opinion unless I either own a car or have extensively driven it. Hmmm, I think that's going to pose a problem for most people on the board when it comes to their opinions! Justin | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2049 Registered: 11-2002 |
Taek, I'm talking about brand new fully restored 50's cars. With skinny ass tires, new shocks, new brakes, leaf springs...etc., etc. NEW 50's cars. And I don't think a couple of these guys have ever even sat in one much less driven one. Also I don't think they ever will, because they're not "new & comfortable" { } | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 701 Registered: 3-2003 |
Oh, drove a 1000 hp Mercedes Lotec last month too. For two blocks. It was undriveable. Also driven a few Diablos. No great shakes. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 700 Registered: 3-2003 |
I don't have one because 4 cars and 2 motorcycles fill up my 2-car garage and short drive very nicely. I have driven plenty, though. Alfas, Ferraris, even a Maserati. A Rolls, Aston, few others I can't be bothered to remember. But it was based on these drives that I made my comment about wallowing suspensions, weak brakes, etc. Hope you enjoyed your drive. I am a story? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2048 Registered: 11-2002 |
Justin, you're turn. Have you ever driven a 50's Ferrari? Have you made plans to drive one in the next year? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1766 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>A 250 GT SWB is light years ahead of its time. There is no need to change the design. Just maintain it correctly.<< Pete's quote. I think there's truth to that. There should also be some clarifications in what mods we are talking about. We might all be on the same side here... Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2047 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Demanding that someone move on if they want to make such changes is a bit much, no?>> FK, Do you have a 50's in your garage? Have you driven a 50's this year? Last year? Do you have definate plans to drive one next year? I drove one yesterday and today and will again tommorow... you're story ------------>>>?????????????? | ||
| Justin (Justin)
New member Username: Justin Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2003 |
JRV, Exactly, cars are what they are...machines meant to be driven and in the case of Ferrari's, machines that are meant to be driven hard and fast. How is making small changes that would allow you to drive the car more being a pansy and a poser? I guess I just don't get the logic there. I'd rather someone changed the suspension and brakes and drove the car, perhaps even drove it hard, then let it sit in a garage with all its original parts. But then again, I'm a driving enthusiast first and foremost and a car enthusiast second. The first is the passion for being behind the wheel and the second is the passion for the art and history of the car...at least by how I define them. Best, Justin | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 699 Registered: 3-2003 |
Ok, not testy...wanting to drive a classic 12 cylinder closer to the limits of the engine without exceeding the limits of the brakes or suspension is being a poseur how? I think wearing those silly leather caps and goggles is extremely poseurish. Making sure every item in the toolkit is polished to a brilliant shine is pretentious. But mods that affect performance and safety? I am all for them. Demanding that someone move on if they want to make such changes is a bit much, no? | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 631 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'm in the middle of the road. I would not drive a car with drum brakes on the street these days (but would keep 'em around and not cut anything on the orgional car to make it fit.) And F*%@ Points! Whoever thought those were cool can suck my exhaust. Give me modern-ish <hall> ignition any day, but none of this should compromise the classic aspects of the car (eg asthetic, feel that makes them so special, etc.) I would limit suspension mods to shocks/springs, keep the car well maintained, and drive it as MUCH as possible! I love James' Lola with electric windows (and how at the end of the day, he DRIVES it, while we sit here and bit*$@ Best! Ben. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2046 Registered: 11-2002 |
FK, no not testy at all...cars are what they are...if you don't like what something is or is all about move on, it's that simple...but to try and squeeze everything into you're own little nice safe tidy comfortable box is, well, how would Allan say it? being a pansy and a poseour? | ||
| Justin (Justin)
New member Username: Justin Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2003 |
I guess I don't see why it's such a sacrilege to change out things like the suspension and brakes to make them more "adequate" for today's street driving. The conditions under which these cars would be driven today are not the same as when the cars were originally designed. When these cars were produced would not those racing them alter the suspension, brakes, etc. to do what they were designed to do better? Don't people do that on today's future classics on a regular basis. I absolutely agree that there is a line when it comes to altering classic cars, but I don't see how making it more roadable by changing the suspension and brakes is crossing it. Just keep all of the originals and make sure you could restore the car to its original set-up. I guess it really depends on whether you're a car enthusiast, a driving enthusiast, or both. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 698 Registered: 3-2003 |
My hero - my dad. Got a bicycle when he graduated college. Still feels a little guilty about demanding it from my grandfather. JRV, you sound a little testy. I didn't grow up in the US, so I don't know some of the names you cite, but I think you are implying that some of them are the wrong heroes to have? I am willing to modify some of my views on classic cars, but not on my hero. Go breed your own love. Or don't. | ||
| Justin (Justin)
New member Username: Justin Post Number: 33 Registered: 4-2003 |
Faisal, that car was sooo beautiful. I still remember gawking at it back in March....  | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 777 Registered: 11-2002 |
Faisal, A 250 GT SWB is light years ahead of its time. There is no need to change the design. Just maintain it correctly. It will never be a 550, but it will do the job very, very well ... probably better than some low end cars made today. Even old Jags, if maintained 100% still drive really good. The only changes I would ever advise is electronic ignition, and dual circuit brakes for safety + fire extinguisher and safety belts. Other than that enjoy the charm, or leave the car alone for others that will. Pete | ||
| Jeffrey Wolfe (86mondial32)
Member Username: 86mondial32 Post Number: 395 Registered: 5-2003 |
Ken I agree about the Lotus. I have an S2 and also an Esprit. Both are a blast to drive and I actually enjoy the Europa for short runs. It's small and tight ( no jokes hehehe) and feels like I an autocrossing just going around a corner. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2045 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>From the folks who I've spoken to, it really seems like there are two definitive kind of car guys<< Yep.. the ones who's Heros are the likes of Big Daddy Don Garlits, Mario Andretti, Craig Breedlove, and the ones who's Heros are Mr. Rogers , Big Bird and Marvin Milikin. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 776 Registered: 11-2002 |
This is the whole thing that pees me off with confused old car enthusiasts: >>Don't like classic unreliability or wallowing suspension or brakes that are not up to the job.>> These cars were not wallowy when new so if maintained PROPERLY they should not be now. A shockabsorber is not a keeper. When it does not function, through it in the bin and put on a new one. If a spring is tired do the same, replace the thing. The idea of maintaining an old car is about keeping it in perfect running condition NOT keeping shock absorbers that do not work, or suspension bushes that are stuffed, because somebody installed them in the '50s. Cars are just machines and things need to be replaced to make them work correctly. Once they are not working correctly they no longer are a car, just a museum, static piece of rubbish. Do you think that all the 250GTO's, 250LM's, etc. are still on their original shocks, springs, tyres, pistons, valve springs, con rods, cranks, etc. OFCOURSE not because their rich owners have had them maintained correctly. Running an old car is not about abusing the machine because of some confused idea that not changing replaceable parts is keeping it original. Keeping it in original running condition is what originality is about ... Pete ps: Replacing trim, etc. is different as they are not replaceable parts, ie. in your 10,000 km service it does not say: - Check seats, and if no longer supportive replace. But it does say in every service: - Check shocks, and if no longer working REPLACE. Class 101 on car maintenance. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 697 Registered: 3-2003 |
I understand about collectibles needing to preserve originality and perhaps some concours considerations, even. But I believe in driving cars first and foremost, just as any other machine designed to do something should continue to do it well. Otherwise, it's just a relic. If cars don't satisfy that requirement to a high level, then they are lesser cars in my eyes. I want to retain as much original character as possible, but I am more interested in the driving enjoyment of the car. I wouldn't want to put all sorts of modern gizmos and alterations on a classic, but if I had one, it would need to provide driving satisfaction first, compliments from others second, from judges...well, that's up to them, I don't think I care. Although compliments are always nice to hear. Don't mean to polarize everyone into two opposing camps, but I am sure there is a big medium where one could make subtle but key changes to significanlty improve the handling, braking, and overall safety/solid feel of the car without butchering its heritage. Is doing this so bad? I don't think so, but I suppose I could be persuaded otherwise. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1763 Registered: 11-2002 |
A LOTUS AT THAT! WOW! Ken, you are unfortunately a dying breed. Keep it up. That's fantastic! Cheers | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1762 Registered: 11-2002 |
From the folks who I've spoken to, it really seems like there are two definitive kind of car guys. The new car guys and the old car guys. The pricing has been settled enough that at any given price point, these car guys will show their true colors. Then, of course, you have exceptions to the rule...Like myself. A wannabe old car guy. I've had plenty of opportunity to jump into the game, but have so far come up dry. I'm just so anal, obsessive compulsive, that I always find something wrong with the car in question. Sort of like the person who has a vision of drawing something perfect but is so consumed by figuring out what they need to draw that they never get started. New cars are easy. Cheers | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1081 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yup, a 72 Europa TC. Not a Ferrari but it shares so much in both spirit and questionable reliability! LOL I've spent twice what it's worth on it but it's still a cheap thrill compared to a classic Ferrari, and I love it to death. I drive her as my primary transportation except in rain or snow. I think my electrical system has been reliable because of that. | ||
| Russ Turner (Snj5)
Member Username: Snj5 Post Number: 337 Registered: 2-2003 |
In my first car at age 16 in 1975, a Fiat 850 Spyder, every trip to the store or school was LeMans - screaming shifts at 6500rpm with the throttle wide open, maximum braking (such as it was). Of course at Fiat 850 acceleration and speeds, no one was able to really notice all my effort but me. :0 Then came an Alfa 1750 Spyder with Webers - to this day the most fun per mile per hour. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2044 Registered: 11-2002 |
Has anyone ever heard Craig Breedlove or Chuck Yaeger whining that they needed "more comfort"? | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1080 Registered: 10-2001 |
Faisal, you really address the point. The brakes....how bad are they? What small things can you do to make them better? Modern pads? Maybe replace the rotors and calipers? That starts to butcher it but if you're going to drive the thing, maybe you have to. That's where safety issues have to be weighed in against concourse considerations. Wallowing suspension....you can get new stiffer springs or maybe change the spring rate. New shocks? Maybe the car isn't set up right to begin with. What's the tension on the sway bar? Anyone even check? If it's really bad then I think something is wrong and needs to be fixed before a major fabrication is called for. Case in point: my shifting entails a long linkage and a questionable design. By replacing u joints and bushings, and also a bracket, it now shifts well. Is it as smooth as a Japanese car? No, but it's plenty smooth enough. So I didn't go to a cable system like some have. It's always a tough call but I think especially on a collectable car (which mine really is NOT) you should make every effort to stay as original as makes sense. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1761 Registered: 11-2002 |
I don't think there's anything wrong with modifying the car to your liking. As long as you can revert it back to the way it should be and not mess with history. I wouldn't do it. I subscribe more to JRV's school of thought. >>The 50's car are way cool, WAY COOL, so why ���� them up? If one wants comfort remember the words from "A Brave New World"..."BUY NEW, BUY NEW, BUY NEW" !!<< Also, don't think the 250 would be a good fit. Typically if you just purchased a 550 you are not in the market for a 250. The cars are night and day. I've done enough old car research to come to the conclusion that it really takes an enthusiast to live with these things and use them/put up with them. Ken, You daily a 31 year old car?! In the immortal words of Ali G... "Booyakasha! RESPECT!"  That's just awesome. Hopefully I'll be there soon. Cheers | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2043 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Don't like classic unreliability or wallowing suspension or brakes that are not up to the job.>> If you really believe the above it's pretty sad commentary on how the "BUY NEW" generation percieves older cars. Nothing could be further from reality. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 788 Registered: 3-2002 |
I would have to think that Mr. Glickenhaus would agree Faisal. Especially considering the modifications he made to the GT-40 to make it more streetable. Of course it can be overdone I suppose. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 696 Registered: 3-2003 |
To have the best of both worlds, old and new, why else. I like classic lines and interiors. Don't like classic unreliability or wallowing suspension or brakes that are not up to the job. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1079 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yes, it would be a crime to take a classic Ferrari and butcher it for the sake of "comfort". I feel qualified to speak to this issue as I've grappled with it to make my 31 year old car a 'daily driver'. I've modernized some but in subtle, unobtrusive ways. My biggest dilema was whether to install an incorrect right side mirror (I bought one but didn't have the heart to mount it...I may yet do it for safety though). | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2041 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>would it be a crime to upgrade the suspension and brakes and sacrifice some originality for performance and comfort?<< The 50's car are way cool, WAY COOL, so why •••• them up? If one wants comfort remember the words from "A Brave New World"..."BUY NEW, BUY NEW, BUY NEW" !! | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 695 Registered: 3-2003 |
The 250 on the road did a respectable 140 mph. I have also paced an Aston DB4 GT at 150. JRV, would it be a crime to upgrade the suspension and brakes and sacrifice some originality for performance and comfort? | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1077 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dan, when I try to explain my Europa to the Corvette/Trans Am people they glaze over and tell me how quick they are 0-60. But you see a glimpse of it yourself when you can't drive on an open road in your car. I imagine it's really frustrating when you're not in open spaces. A small, high revving engine in a 1500 lb mid engine car is a blast at 40 mph through the neighborhood, and at 100 you'd think you're going 150. Not to say I wouldn't trade the Lotus for a 550 (I would!!), but even a pop to the supermarket in town is exciting, while in a 550 I think it would be a little sedate. That's why I'm lusting after a 246. A 250 SWB? Well, maybe if a rich uncle dies. If you can afford it, I'd trade the 550 for it in a second!!! If it's more hassle than its worth you can always find a willing buyer and another 550. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 2040 Registered: 11-2002 |
Get something from the 50's if you want Thrills & Adrenalin, at 60-90 mph you feel like John Glen takin off in the first capsule the things are shakin and vibrating so much, and if you got real sack and need extra adrenalin try to hold out for 100 then hit the brakes as hard as you can. Just did it yesterday in a 55 Jag XK 140 so I know of what I speak!! [ ] | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 693 Registered: 3-2003 |
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| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 692 Registered: 3-2003 |
250. Perfection. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1757 Registered: 11-2002 |
With both the 250GT SWB and 275GTB/4 you'd still be on the wrong side of the law. Cheers | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Member Username: Psk Post Number: 774 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dan, My thoughts exactly ... the 246 Dino could be the best ROAD Ferrari ever. A car that is designed to run at over 300 kmh has to have damping and spring rates set for that, thus at lower speeds the car will not be alive as you have stated. Thus will you ever drive it in it's sweet spot??? Pete | ||
| Byron (Bmyth)
Intermediate Member Username: Bmyth Post Number: 1019 Registered: 10-2002 |
For a while, Dan? I thought that it's only been 3 weeks! | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1130 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well, Now that I've had the 550 for a while, I am a bit more qualified to make some assessments. Overall, I absolutely love this car. Brilliantly comfortable, blah blah blah. But...I have one problem. Enjoying it. Honestly, this car only *really* comes alive 4k+ in 4th or more. Meaning you're way on the wrong side of the law to get the real fun out of it. Now, there are other kinds of fun, but I've had just as much doing 70 in older cars. Maybe it's time for a 250 GT SWB? A 275GTB/4 would be nice. Thoughts? Comments? --Dan |