| Author |
Message |
James Dunne (Audiguy)
Junior Member
Username: Audiguy
Post Number: 166
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 9:02 am: | |
Ryan,
Have a lot of fun in getting involved in racing a Ferrari. As Jon says, the 355 is the way to go and not enter into the upper stratosphere of spending to support it. Racing the Challenge series can be expensive especially if you swap paint with someone else during one of the races.
Get a good car and prep it correctly for its class. Keep yourself in good physical condition (which I assume you already do since your profile says you are a professional athlete). Spend some time in the seat before going racing and then jump in and have fun. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 814
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 12:57 am: | |
Ryan,
You could run a 355 C in T1 (National Class) or ITE (East Coast Regional Class) in SCCA. Depending on tracks and your ability the 355 C is pretty equal to the Vettes and Vipers you will run against in T1. In ITE it's a different story as you will run against many cars with more hp.
A 348 C may still be able to run in T1, not sure, but it would get spanked bad by the above mentioned cars.
I don't race the 355 C in SCCA though it could run in T1 with some minor modifications. It's too nice a car and way too expensive to repair. There are many people racing in T1 that wouldn't think twice about swapping paint to gain a postition. Since there is no 13/13 rule such as Porsche Club or BMWCCA uses there is a lot of paint swapping going on.
A better deal might be to buy a Trans Am car, preferably one that is a couple of years old and run it in GT1 class. You can pick one of these 600+ hp monsters for 50-70K and they are much faster than any Challenge car.
I race a Spec Racer Ford because it's cheap to maintain and race and there are usually fields of 30+ cars at Regional and National races. It's a class where everyone has the same equipment and talent wins the race, not your pocketbook.
I am hoping to move up to some sort of Formula class next year and also trying to purchase a NASCAR Craftsman Truck to run against the Trans Am cars in GT1.
If you are just racing to have fun and by that I mean you have no aspirations to run in a professional series, then go the SCCA route but stay away from a Challenge car. Way too expensive for what you get.
Solly,
I am starting to hear complaints from a number of people who have bought 360 C's in the past year. Main complaint is the electronics and the issue you pointed out about the dealer having to do most of the work/diagnostics.
I think this is starting to have some effect on 360 C prices. Heard at Lime Rock someone bought a 360 C for under 100K. Don't know what shape it was in.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
|
Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member
Username: Solly
Post Number: 534
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 11:50 pm: | |
Ok-reality, from personal experience:
I have only been doing club events, not the series, but here are expenses to date (15 track days)
1) Buy the 360 Challenge: $130,000 for a used one in top shape
2) Extra set of wheels and tires: $7-10,000
3) Rain tires if you really want to run in the wet: $2000
4) Transport to track (let's say Watkins Glen, from New Jersy): $375 each way
5) Track support (you ABSOLUTELY need this. There is not one damn thing you can fix on your own):$375 per day
6) New tires after every 10 track days (depends how you drive):$2,000
7) Brake pads after every 4-5 days: $500 per set
8) Gas for 2 days: $175
9) New alternator (these go like mad on Challenge cars: Haven't gotten the bill yet
9) New clutch after 5 events (I just got a second job)
My estimate for running and transport costs plus routine maintenance and replacement of parts for the 15 track days i did so far: $30,000, or $2,000 per day.
If you do the Challenge series where they go wheel-to-wheel, expect body damage and expensive repairs thereof.
I highly recommend the club events, and highly recommend a 355 Challenge rather than a 360 to begin with. They are less expensive to buy and service, are almost as fast, and are much more stable and forgiving than a 360. I would have bought a 355 if i could fit in one. If you are over 6 feet forget it, your only option is a 360. |
Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
New member
Username: Sherpa23
Post Number: 48
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 10:55 pm: | |
Thanks guys. This is very informative. I used to race when I was in my late teens about 10 years ago. Jon, I hear you about the no talent thing. I watched a tape of a Challenge race last week and, with rare exception, it looked like the safest place to stand was on the apexes of the corners. Of course, it's easy for me to say that because I'm watching not racing but that's what really made me start thinking about getting back into racing. After hearing the costs, though, I think that what might fit a little better is my buying a 348c or 355c and racing SCCA. Jon, where do you race your 355c? |
Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member
Username: Rexrcr
Post Number: 754
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 10:23 pm: | |
Jon, et. al. are correct. Including the cost of a new chassis, budget a maximum of $500,000. Yes, you can certainly do a season of seven races plus testing for less, but you control quite a bit of the season's cost (shunts).
Buy a used car, don't crash, do a seven race, plus five test day season for $300,000 or less. YMMV.
Yes, I agree, renting a seat somewhere else may be more cost effective. Depending on your business, networking with other owner/drivers may offset some cost intangibly.
FNA should let in the 348 and 355 again IMO. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 813
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 9:48 pm: | |
Doody's right. The Maserati series is already up and running in Europe. For 120,000 Euros you get something like 6 or 7 races. You don't buy the car but do have to pay for damage.
Ryan, I was set to participate in the 2001 series on a limited schedule but backed out due to financial constraints and FNA's insistence that I pay for the whole season (I only wanted to do half).
The Challenge series is about $400-$500K per year. You pay FNA a race fee of 3-4K per race and then you pay the dealer a per race fee. This varies between dealers. In 2001 Ferrari of Washington charged 9K per race. You can also buy damage insurance which runs another 3-4K per race.
And lastly if you want to run at the front it takes another $75-$100K in additional private testing, modifications within the rules (and many not within the rules).
As I and other's have stated here many times, the Challenge series is a waste of money unless you have literally no talent, no professional ambition, and no commitment to explain to your sponsors why they are shelling out mega $$$'s for races attended by a few hundred people.
For 500K you can race a partial season in ALMS, a full season in Grand Am, or run a full season in SCCA at the Pro levels (Formula Mazda, Formula Atlantic, Barber Dodge). At least there you will see some fans and some future Schumachers.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23 |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1493
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 8:57 pm: | |
i recall a conversation with a dealer wherein they indicated that maserati was going to do a deal where you just paid a flexible fee, effectively "per race" (?) which included the car and a spare - in large part because the ferrari challenge series just wasn't doing very well in its current incarnation.
fwiw,
doody. |
Kevin Marcus (Rumordude)
Junior Member
Username: Rumordude
Post Number: 178
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 8:23 pm: | |
you need to talk to maria homann, [email protected] and she can give you a niec info packet and all.
as already mentioned, they dropped the 355 all together and are also now offering a "3 race series" since so few new entrants were coming in. It was starting to sound likely that the series could be discontinued.
http://www.ferrarichallenge.com/
has further deatils. Since the event is sanctioned by grand am, you will also need some licensing -- but if you have at least an scca license you should be okay as they are more lenient for this series.
sponsorship comes from the other racers -- you put each others logos and whatnot on your car. You can team up with some peopel for trailering and all but ultimately it is pretty pricey -- when you factor it all in you'll be out probably 400-500k.
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Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
New member
Username: Sherpa23
Post Number: 47
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 7:48 pm: | |
James,
Thanks. I have taken a good bit of high performance/racing driving instruction, both for cars and motorcycles. Club events might definitely be the way to go. I will check with some of the dealers running multiple cars for the Challenge series per your suggestion but perhaps there will be enough club events for me to have some serious fun in a 348 or 355 Challenge car. Thanks again. |
James J. McGee (Dr_ferrari)
Junior Member
Username: Dr_ferrari
Post Number: 142
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 7:40 pm: | |
Pretty much the only bone that you get in the series is one free set of tires per event provided by pirelli. As to weather or not a dealer makes any money at this, Not really unless they have a lot of cars on the team (ie...more than 4) or a body shop. In fact for most dealerships, It`s quite a issue when they have to empty their shops of their technicians for 2-3 days to man these events.
My suggestion is to check with the dealers who are running the series with multiple cars, (ie - Ferrari of Long Island, Ferrari of washington, Shelton Sportscars, or Ferrari of Houston).You may find they will give you the best deal.
If you decide not to do the series, you can have just as much fun going to the club events and possibly hiring a driving coach to help you improve. Most dealers and independents (and myself) will help at events if needed.
Good luck and regards, Jim
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Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
New member
Username: Sherpa23
Post Number: 46
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Okay. I am starting to get the picture. Not so promising unless I can round up some serious sponsors. Do the dealers actually make money with the cahllenge series then? |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1489
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 7:09 pm: | |
"cubic dollars"
ROTFLMFAO!
doody. |
Dave (Maranelloman)
Intermediate Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 2355
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 7:04 pm: | |
3 words: bring cubic dollars. |
Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Junior Member
Username: Drtax
Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:53 pm: | |
Here's what I was told by a 360 Challenge racer. Step 1. Buy a car - $200. Step 2. The dealer charges $25K a race to prep/trailer/hand hold. At 10 races, that's $250. Step 3. You figure another $5k a race for your posse (and you have a posse don't you?) Total for a season assuming no, uh, damages is $500K. BTW, your car after a season of racing is worth maybe $75K.
Don't know how accurate this is. This is just what I was told.
Dale |
Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
New member
Username: Sherpa23
Post Number: 45
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:48 pm: | |
James,
Thank you. Your advice has been very helpful. |
James Dunne (Audiguy)
Junior Member
Username: Audiguy
Post Number: 162
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:43 pm: | |
348 and 355 Challenge no longer participate in the Challenge series. You would need to run in SCCA to find a class for them. Something like T1 for the 355. |
James Dunne (Audiguy)
Junior Member
Username: Audiguy
Post Number: 161
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:41 pm: | |
Ryan,
Find a dealer who will let you in their stable.
Have a current competition drivers license
Purchase a car
Register your participation in the series.
Go racing.
You pay for it all. Car, transportation, spares, repairs, accomodations, entry fees, the whole thing. It can be very costly, depending on the number of races you run and whether you run clean or not.
I would suggest you contact someone who runs a successful Challenge team for all the information you need. Go to www.FerrariofDallas.com and speak with Tony Nevotti. |
Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
New member
Username: Sherpa23
Post Number: 44
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:41 pm: | |
And also, what happens if I buy a 348 Challenge race car or a 355 Challenge? What events are there to race those? |
Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
New member
Username: Sherpa23
Post Number: 42
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:29 pm: | |
Wow. Okay, how much for season roughly? A car plus $200k? $400k? More? Oh man, this could be ugly. |
william speer (Wspeer)
Member
Username: Wspeer
Post Number: 274
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:22 pm: | |
no subsidy. you need $$$$$$$ to play. the price varies by dealer based on the level of support they provide. |
Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
New member
Username: Sherpa23
Post Number: 41
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 28, 2003 - 6:06 pm: | |
How much does it cost to participate in the Challenge Series? Do Dealers get money to participate in the series and then do they help out customers of theirs racing in the series? Or is simply that Dealers get money, set up their teams, and then the non dealers pay their own money. I can't imagine that the racing isn't subsidized in some way but I am very curious as to how it works. Thanks in advance. |