| Author |
Message |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 30
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 7:58 pm: | |
Greetings all.... just following up.
This customer "re-surfaced" and we indeed were able to forge an out of court settlement with him to collect the majority of the proceeds that were due. Thank you for your kind words and sentiments. We are happy to now have this behind us.
Sonja Berg, for Herr Klotz |
Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member
Username: Tvrfreak
Post Number: 734
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 11:34 am: | |
If they are not fake, yes. Wonder if he supplied a passport and license to be photocopied (much harder to fake), or if he just handed over the "copies." |
Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member
Username: Paulie_b
Post Number: 568
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 11:18 am: | |
I wouldn't want to be "Mr. Customer". With the copy of passport and drivers licensed he will be found. Shouldn't be difficult. Good luck in solving the problem. What a shame. |
Ronny Jones (Ronny)
New member
Username: Ronny
Post Number: 33
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 9:37 am: | |
I think that there are 2 issues here ; finding the guy, and then trying to get money out of him.
Unfortunately, even if you found him, I think the $8k is still all you're going to get. I'm also surprised that he only called the day before his agreement was up to tell you the bad news, and yet the car has to be returned to Germany the next day ? The whole story just doesn't add up.
Still I really hope you can find him.
Ronny
|
Ronny Jones (Ronny)
New member
Username: Ronny
Post Number: 31
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 5:52 am: | |
I use to manage a rental company, and this seems a very strange set of events. Why would a Briton hire a car in Germany to drive back to Britain ? Surely with a mileage charge ( which I presume there is ? ) it would have been cheaper to hire on in the UK, where they are available. This, coupled with a CASH deposit and details of a GREEK bank, spells danger to me.
I would not at all be surprised that if the car had not crashed, you would not have seen it again.
On the legal side, I agree that unless stipulated in the contract, recovery of loss of potential revenue would be very difficult. I honestly think that the customer's liability would be limited to the $8000.
Ronny |
David Mcguire (Matkat)
New member
Username: Matkat
Post Number: 43
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 4:38 am: | |
Gentlemen,please allow me to clear up some misconceptions as regarding insurance issues between the u.k. and europe and vice versa.A green card is not a legal requirement for driving a u.k. registered car on the european mainland.it was several years ago and u.k. insurance companies used to make vast amounts of cash selling them,and still do as many people are unaware that they are not required.All European countries (e.e.c.)issue green cards automatically and these cover all member states,I fail to see how ferrarirental would not be covered? any way I hope they catch the scumbag.
best regards
Dave McGuire |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 179
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 10:41 pm: | |
Faisal - That's because your friend probably complied with the rental agreement (and therefore was protected against being liable for loss of use ). In this case, they did not comply with the rental agreement, so they are liable for the $20K deductible at a minimum. It would be interesting to see if they are liable for loss of use. I suspect they would be as they did not comply with the rental agreement, were negligent etc. |
rob guess (Beast)
Junior Member
Username: Beast
Post Number: 139
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 9:26 pm: | |
I used to manage a service department for a Jet Ski dealership and our contracts with the local rental outfits would require us to have any units in for repairs on monday to be ready for use by noon on friday or they would deduct the potential lost revenue from the service bill. Needless to say i would check to see if all parts were shipable from the warehouse before we would accept the job. I also on a few occasions would be working till past midnight just to make sure we got the unit back to them by the deadline. The contract was a total headache to deal with but it was also a very large money maker for the shop.
I never did see the rental agreement to the renter but i had heard thet they had the right to charge for lost revenue in the event of accident damage and customer induced engine failures. On average they had a fleet of 12 units and 4 a weekend were turned in for service work durring the summer months. |
Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member
Username: Tvrfreak
Post Number: 728
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 5:20 pm: | |
David,
agree on all points except for the lost revenue. A customer does not guarantee future revenue in a rental agreement. Perhaps insurance provides this coverage, but a customer does not. In this case, the customer did agree to operate the car under their insurance terms, and since he seems to have violated that agreement, they may have a case for demanding that he pay them for the lost revenue.
This may or may not be relevant:
A friend and I rented sportbikes in Hawaii and my friend crashed. The proprietor insisted on us compensating him for lost revenue. On my advice, my friend refused. His credit card was charged anyways. It went to the courts and my friend did not have to pay.
Rgds,
Faisal. |
David R. (Rodsky)
Junior Member
Username: Rodsky
Post Number: 178
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 5:14 pm: | |
Faisal - They are out of pocket for $12K plus opportunity cost of another $30K (lost revenue). They are owed $42K, they just said they would "settle" and be happy to get $12K. Therefore, it is worth their while to pursue.
This is a terrible situation. Hope they recover their costs. |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 29
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 4:30 pm: | |
Mr Khan -- I apologize for spelling your name incorrectly. And hey, I know you were not taking sides... I apologize if my post seemed abrupt in any way. Just wanted to make sure everything was fully explained. We very much value input from FerrariChatters and therefore want to be as clear as I can be... but totally understand your reason for the questions... they were good questions. :-)
All the best,
Julia |
Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member
Username: Tvrfreak
Post Number: 725
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 4:15 pm: | |
I was just asking...I was not taking sides.
1. What is the deposit for? You have answered it was to cover the "gap" to the $20,000.
2. If it was worth your time to attempt to recover the $12,000. You have said yes.
Thanks for the answers. And yes, I do know about overhead.
Please note the correct spelling of my last name. |
Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member
Username: Artherd
Post Number: 672
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 4:05 pm: | |
$12k is still a pretty big gap, and the loss of use is another hit. I bet your offices/showroom lease isn't going away to the shop along with the car!
The $8k is the customer's portion of an accident deposit, correct?
Sounds like this guy may even have used stolen funds, be careful, you may be dealing with a full fleged criminal. (and not just a drunken idoit.)
No one who can afford to write off $8k, but stiff you for the other $12k is going to do so!
No question renting exotics is a high-risk, but I am sure fun (when all goes right!) buisness. I wish you luck in your efforts.
Best!
Ben. |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
Mr Kahn -- The customer must have SOME liability, otherwise our gap would be $20,000, and what would be the customer's incentive to even return the car?
It may SOUND like the car pays for itself in a year or two, but it doesn't. Remember, the car generates zero revenue during November through March because of winter weather. Then you must factor in our high insurance costs for liability and comprehensive (minus the $20,000 deductible), plus fixed costs with our team of 4 Ferrari mechanics, and various other costs and "surprises." It's not as easy or obvious as it may sound at first... |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 27
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 3:27 pm: | |
One final note to add: If you had seen the damage done to this car, you'd understand why this customer should NOT have driven it after the accident! He was putting himself more in harm's way by driving it than he was by staying put. The entire front suspension was not straight, two of the passenger side wheel lugs had been broken, and all of the antifreeze/coolant had run out of the car. It barely ran, wouldn't drive straight, and the traction control kept applying the brakes while he was driving it because it was getting a false reading. We have reason to believe the customer was intoxicated during the accident, as evidenced by some materials found in the car upon it's return. Thus, likely, his reason for fleeing the scene, out of fear of being discovered in his intoxicated state by the local police.
By driving this vehicle, the cylinder heads overheated and warped, lost their seals, and then I believe valves started sticking, then hit the pistons, then the entire engine became kaputt (I believe that was the sequence explained to me). If the customer had not driven the vehicle after the crash, the engine could have been salvaged and saved consider cost and vehicle loss of use. |
Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member
Username: Tvrfreak
Post Number: 723
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 3:22 pm: | |
Julia,
I understand you are in business to make money, but it sounds like the car pays for itself within one year, if not sooner. Is it worth your time to pursue the 12,000?
Also, why does the customer "obviously" forfeit their deposit? What is the deposit for? To ensure that they return the car? In good condition? Or is it for something else? |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 26
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 3:18 pm: | |
Gentlemen: I am not Herr Klotz, I am only posting on his behalf. But here is my understanding...
The customer deductible is equivalent to the deposit -- in the case of the 360 Spider, it is $8,000. So the customer forfeited his deposit after the accident, obviously.
Our rental company deductible is $20,000. So we are liable for the gap, which is $12,000. If the customer were not guilty of three different forms of gross negligence with regard to our Rental Agreement, our company would cover this gap. However, because the customer is liable in this particular instance, he is responsible for covering this gap. Also, our insurance company does NOT provide "loss of use" coverage on our policy. Again, because this customer is guilty of gross negligence, he would be liable for this loss as well, though it is extremely difficult to enforce, and 9 times out of 10 not able to be collected.
If we were to reduce our company insurance below the $20,000 threshold, it would not be financially feasible to conduct this business. Or if we were to include "loss of use" coverage, it again would not be financially feasible.
All said and done, our firm will lose $12,000 in damages, plus over one month in "loss of use" revenue, which adds another approximately $30,000 in revenue for this car (which is near 100% occupancy during July and August, our busiest months of the season), which means this customer is liable for approximately $42,000 in losses. As it turns out, we'd be completely satisfied in recovering the $12,000.
I hope this furthers your understanding of the situation.
With best regards,
Julia Meissner, for Herr Klotz |
Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member
Username: Tvrfreak
Post Number: 722
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 3:18 pm: | |
I am not sure it is the case either. But that's what I took their post to mean ie. they think that their insurance does not cover this claim and therefore they hold the customer liable.
I know it's no problem to take a car rented in England to mainland Europe (with the exception of some Eastern European countries). But that's rental cars. Private cars insured in England are not insured in mainland Europe unless the owner obtains this specific coverage (I think it's what you refer to as the "green card"). Maybe this is the same idea in reverse? And I would think that the requirement for filing a police report can be met by filing it later? I guess their policy, designed for high-end cars, is far more restrictive? |
Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member
Username: Andrewg
Post Number: 254
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 3:11 pm: | |
Nick, i think Faisal is right, thats why we have have to get a european pass to drive in mainland europe, I've had company cars where the insurance and lease conditions state that you must inform and obtain permission from the Lease company & their insurers before leaving Dover |
Nick Berry (Nickb)
Junior Member
Username: Nickb
Post Number: 125
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 3:07 pm: | |
Faisal,I am not sure that is the case. One would think that an insurance policy would cover most Eurpoean countries including England. The only argument for not doing so is the increased risk for drivers accustomed to driving on the right hand side of road now required to drive on the left. Yet isn't there an underground tunnel between mainland Europe and the UK?
The failure to report the accident is not sufficient to decline coverage unless the insurance company was prejudiced. For an example if the insured driver was at fault how have they been harmed regarding their exposure to repair the car? |
Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member
Username: Tvrfreak
Post Number: 721
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 1:46 pm: | |
Nick,
I understood the posting to meant that EuropeanFerrariRental's insurance will NOT cover the accident as the terms of coverage were not complied with (removed from mainland Europe without prior written agreement, no accident report filed which is required by the insurance co. even though it is not required by British law, etc).
Therefore, EuropeanCarRental now has to try to recover the damages from the renter, who suddenly seems hard to reach!
Rgds,
Faisal. |
JRV (Jrvall)
Intermediate Member
Username: Jrvall
Post Number: 2109
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 1:42 pm: | |
>>The car if totalled or requires engine repair incident to the accident is all covered by insurance.<<
While this is a Horrible situation, I agree with the above.
Having worked with numerous clients & Ins. Co's over the years the truth goes like this.
All damage incurred resulting from an accident should be covered! Very few Drivers are also Ferrari Mechanics and have no way of knowing that driving the car is hurting it. In fact it is logical after an accident to drive (if possible) to a safe place, like home, for example, because in the safety of home one can more easily recieve help if shock sets in. Many times right after an accident the driver is affected by adrenalin that masks serious physical damage, that could result in shock after the adrenalin wears off.
IMO driving to a place of possible help & refuge for a potentially injured person far outwieghs anything with the car.
Again this is a horrible situation, but Human Life and/or Safety should always outwiegh auto damage. |
wayne skiles (Bad_tt)
New member
Username: Bad_tt
Post Number: 34
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 1:31 pm: | |
maybe the insurance does not cover the car outside of Europe? |
Nick Berry (Nickb)
Junior Member
Username: Nickb
Post Number: 124
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 1:10 pm: | |
I am puzzled by this post. If the car is insured and the "client" put up the deductible in cash how have you been financially harmed?
The car if totalled or requires engine repair incident to the accident is all covered by insurance. Either way you will be made whole. Is this not a risk of the rental car business?
If finding this person is so important your insurance company has all the resources to locate the individual.
What am I missing?
BTW,I do not defend or condone what this person did. |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 25
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 9:50 pm: | |
Mr. Fraser -- On behalf of Herr Klotz, thank you very much for your email. We have received it and replied, but just wanted to let you know here as well, in case you did not yet receive our confirmation email.
Mr. Goalen -- Thank you for passing along this information regarding the filing of Accident Reports with police in England. This is actually something the customer had told us as well, so it is at least good to hear that indeed there may have been ONE thing the customer did not lie about. Of course, it violated the Rental Agreement for this customer to have brought the vehicle to England in the first place, as this contitutes "transporting the vehicle overseas" without our permission. However, having never experienced a crash in England in the past, this is good information to know.
Julia Meissner, for Herr Klotz |
Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Junior Member
Username: Andrewg
Post Number: 249
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 9:23 pm: | |
Berthold,
sorry to hear what this person did to your spider, unfortuntaley in the UK if somebody has a car accident and nobody is hurt (IE requires hospital treatment) then they are not required to make and accident statement, as such they cannot be charged with fleeing the scene of an accident, if you need further help with this matter I know 2 Solicitors who deal exclusivley with road traffic accidents |
Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member
Username: Jfraser
Post Number: 442
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 9:04 pm: | |
Berthold,
Could you confirm that you received my email...I'm not sure I sent it to the right address |
wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member
Username: Whart
Post Number: 1563
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:27 pm: | |
You should probably have a solicitor help you seek out a very connected lawyer in the UK who can convince the criminal justice authorities to investigate this matter with the aim of prosecuting; perhaps its only leaving the scene of an accident, failing to report it to authorities, and giving you false information concerning his whereabouts. Perhaps there is enough to say that he embarked on this scheme with an intent to defraud, and may have actually been considered a thief once he took the vehicle outside the territory permitted by your rental agreement. Keep in mind that you are not, at least in the States, permitted to threaten criminal prosecution as a means to remedy a civil wrong; however, if it would satisfy you to see this person go thru the criminal justice system, and perhaps, lose his license to drive, perhaps, see a bit of jail time, and perhaps, be forced to make some recompense, the authorities can do much that you, as a private citizen cannot, no matter how well heeled your legal team is. While you may sue him for damages, the criminal authorities will tend to disregard any case which looks like it can be remedied in civil court proceedings. Of course, if you convince the authorities to prosecute, you can always sue him later, and as your counsel may tell you, use some of the findings in the criminal matter in your civil lawsuit. By the way, if the authorities take this matter, it will cost you some time, but you will not be spending the enormous sums you might if you were attempting to do this through a civil lawsuit. I can track down some UK lawyers for you if you do not have contacts. |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 24
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:26 pm: | |
We also have a copy of this man's Passport and Driver's License, so we WILL track him down, and enforce the stipulations of the Rental Agreement which he signed. But will require assistance via a professional (i.e. attorney), and we have never had to work through a situation like this in the United Kingdom until now. Thus, the request for assistance.
We can do this the easy way or the hard way, and we hope the customer will come forward so it can be done the easy way. But if he doesn't, we just want to line up the attorney in England (preferably in or near Brighton) to handle this situation. |
Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
Member
Username: Jfraser
Post Number: 441
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:15 pm: | |
Berthold,
Name and address of some lawyers on its way to you
Jason. |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 23
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:09 pm: | |
This customer paid the rental fee and deposit/deductible in cash, via wire transfers from a bank in Greece. So we have an account number, and various bank information. But none of us speak Greek, so thus far have not been able to achieve any assistance via the bank.
We also do have a credit card number, which this customer has since closed out. We have attempted to transact this account as a means of at least partial recovery. But the account is dead.
Isn't it so sad that one bad person like this can spoil it for all the good people out there? We have had two other customers now who were so much looking forward to their rentals with our 360 Spider F1, who have not been able to drive this car now.
Thanks for your well wishes. We sure hope to be able to make recovery from this customer. If he has any honor, he will call us if he indeed reads this posting. |
Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
Junior Member
Username: Sherpa23
Post Number: 58
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:09 pm: | |
Holy ••••! That really is unbelievable. I truly feel for you. I have some old friends from the Commonwealth who are practicing law in the U.K. They might have some good suggestions. |
Chris Horner (Cmhorner17)
Junior Member
Username: Cmhorner17
Post Number: 222
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
I'm sorry to hear that. That sux Berthold. Keep us posted... |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 1529
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 8:02 pm: | |
good luck tracking this bonehead down.
doody. |
rob ferretti (Robiferretti)
Member
Username: Robiferretti
Post Number: 300
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 7:53 pm: | |
good luck, wouldn't you require some form of legal means for acquiring your $ when renting the car? ie. bank account or credit card which you could bill him and track down the guy?
what would stop someone from coming in and paying you $10,000 for the rental then $8000 in cash as a secuirty deposit and walking away with an $18,000 ferrari track car? something in your pracitices should be changed if this is possible
Good luck |
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Intermediate Member
Username: Napolis
Post Number: 2233
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 7:46 pm: | |
As they say in NY UnFu cking Believable!!!!
My thoughts are with you.
Wm or Art likely have UK counterparts who can help.
Best of luck.
Jim |
Berthold Klotz (Rueschenberg)
New member
Username: Rueschenberg
Post Number: 22
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 7:36 pm: | |
Greetings Ferraristi:
An unfortunate circumstance has arisen, and we find ourselves in the position of requesting any assistance which may be possible from our friends in the United Kingdom.
On July 15, 2003, a customer (who shall remain nameless) rented our Ferrari 360 Spider F1 for a one week period. This customer had verbally indicated that he had discovered our company via FerrariChat.com. The day before the car was to be returned, we received a call from the customer, informing us that he had wrecked the car. We further discovered that he had transported the car from mainland Europe to the United Kingdom, and that the wreck had occured in the UK -- specifically near his home in Brighton. This violates the terms of our Rental Agreement, as we specify that the car is not to be transported overseas or outside mainland Europe unless agreed upon in writing. This violation instantly makes the customer 100% liable for the damage.
Furthermore, the customer failed to file an Accident Report at the time of the accident. This is another direct violation of our Rental Agreement, as our insurance carrier specifically requires a written report for ANY accident involving damage to the vehicle, regardless of whether third parties were involved or not. Again, this violation as well makes the customer 100% liable.
Upon picking the car up with our transporter, we discovered the impact involved the front and front passenger side of the car, with the heaviest damage to the hood, passenger side fender and door, and partial passenger quarter panel.
Accordingly, the customer (who paid in cash) immediately forfeited the $8,000 deposit on the rental, which is equivalent to the deductible for the insurance. And we are far enough along in the repair process to have started the engine this morning, only to discover the customer must have driven the vehicle, WITHOUT COOLANT, back to his home garage, some 10-15 kilometers away from the supposed accident site. The engine is a complete loss.
Having driven the vehicle this far without coolant constitutes GROSS NEGLIGENCE on the part of this customer, and as such he is liable for the replacement engine, which is already on the way to our location in Germany, from Maranello.
But now the customer seems to have "disappeared." Not reachable via cell phone, fax, or email.
Which, finally, gets around to the point of this email. We are hoping that at least one of our fellow UK-based Ferraristi can point us to a qualified attorney in southern England to assist in this matter.
I won't quantify the total amount of damage done to the car in this posting, but I'm sure you can all easily understand the significance of expense involved with primary component replacement in a Ferrari 360 Spider, such as an engine.
Any assistance any of our British friends may be able to provide will be GREATLY appreciated.
And Mr. ex-customer, if you still reside here on FerrariChat, we hope you will own up to your responsibility and please return our many calls.
Thank you, everyone, for bearing with this posting. And thank you Rob, for allowing us to take a little band width in order to attempt to locate some UK-based assistance.
Julia Meissner, for Herr Klotz
Scuderia von Ruschenberg
www.EuropeanFerrariRental.com |
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