| Author |
Message |
Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member
Username: Ferruccio
Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 17, 2003 - 12:35 am: | |
G peters,
The commet was not directed at what you said. I just was reading Motorweek and desided to post its impression of the car. The sad fact is: Some day, very soon, technology will make a car that will let everyone who drives it look as good as Schumi. Hell look at the porche SUV. It laps a race traclk as good as a boxter S. Its all going to be technology. It wont matter how good you are just how much technology your car has. We are seeing this unfold right before our eyes. The glory days are almost over. |
G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
Junior Member
Username: Wfo_racer
Post Number: 182
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Dan, that's why I had Brabus modify it. Besides it's my wife's errand car not something that's going to go set lap records with, what's your point ? Every car sold can be improved even the Ferrari. All I ever said it is fairly quick in a straight line. Yes that's not "real racing" that's not the point . When the lights turn green you stand on the go pedal and the next car is struggling to try and stay with you I still think it's funny that the family truckster smokes the sporty car driver. Like I said before to the great unwashed a sports car should be fast and when a family car smokes you it's funny to me. |
Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member
Username: Ferruccio
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 2:11 pm: | |
In motortrends Septmeber 2003 issue they talk about the Mercedes E55 AMG and the less than perfect handling. Saying it has sedated steering and Edgy limit handling. |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 123
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 12:13 am: | |
They don't specifically say but it is a long-term study so I suspect it typically involves more major issues than their initial quality study. I think that the majority of flaws (70% I seem to remember) are due to design flaws. It's funny, but some people seem shaken to their very core to find out that Chevrolets on average have better long term dependabilty than Mercedes!
Here is some of the text accompanying the study:
J.D. Power and Associates Reports: (AS: Wow! Did Mercedes-Benz take a dive this year!)
While Japanese-Branded Vehicles Continue to Lead in
Long-Term Quality, the Domestics Outpace Europeans
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: July 8, 2003
WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.�While Japanese-branded vehicles continue to dominate in terms of long-term vehicle quality, the Europeans have lost their edge over the U.S. domestic-branded vehicles, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Vehicle Dependability StudySM (VDS) released today.
The 2003 study, which measures problems reported by original owners of 2000 model-year vehicles at three years of ownership, finds that although there is near parity between U.S. Domestics and Europeans in terms of initial quality, substantial quality gaps appear between the Domestics and the Europeans in long-term durability. On average, models by domestic automakers outperform the Europeans by 49 problems per 100 (PP100) vehicles at three years of ownership.
"Conventional wisdom said that dependability was the property of the Japanese and Europeans," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates. "While that�s still true for automakers like Toyota and Honda, it�s no longer the case for many of the Europeans. Porsche, Jaguar, Saab and BMW perform well above the industry average in dependability, but many other European brands are bought based on a reputation for long-term quality and fall far short of even the average. This is in stark contrast to the results of the first VDS, conducted in 1990, when Mercedes-Benz led the industry.
Other notable performances in the 2003 results include Subaru and GMC, which both performed considerably better when measured at three years in VDS than when they were measured at 90 days of ownership. At the other end of the spectrum is Mercedes-Benz, which experiences the largest quality gap between initial quality and long-term quality measurements. Also deteriorating more rapidly than the average vehicle are Audi and Volvo.
Some problems that occur much more frequently as vehicles age include excessive brake wear, air conditioning system issues, wind noise and the replacement of components not called for under the normal maintenance schedule. New problems that arise as vehicles age include issues with shocks and struts; faded, cracked or worn materials; worn or broken moldings; cracked and peeling paint; and various fluid leaks.
Long-term quality measures have a big consumer impact. Among new-vehicle buyers, 52 percent indicate that long-term durability is among their most important factors in choosing a vehicle. Further, among used-vehicle buyers, 42 percent report buying a used vehicle instead of a new vehicle because they felt that the quality of the used vehicle is as good as a new one. This is particularly true among luxury used-vehicle buyers.
"With the proliferation of long-term warranties being offered on new vehicles and the increasing popularity of manufacturer-sponsored used-vehicle certification programs, long-term quality issues are critical to manufacturers and their bottom lines," said Ivers. "Manufacturers must align themselves with consumer expectations for durability. Long-term quality issues have a substantial impact on customer retention, even among �got to have� models that seem impervious to quality issues at their introduction |
Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Member
Username: Jaguarxj6
Post Number: 785
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 3:33 pm: | |
I beat the living •••• out of my sedan for the last 53k miles and have had less then $1000 in actual maintenance besides lubrication, fluids, consumables. I had the exhaust manifold replaced due to a crack under warranty which was $300-400 I didn't have to pay.
What does that list below include, I wonder. Design flaws? Owner/dummy issues?
Sunny |
RockStar (Remix)
Junior Member
Username: Remix
Post Number: 71
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 10:23 am: | |
Knock on wood - nearly zero problems with my CLK 55 ///AMG in the two years I've had it. I beat the crap out of it and it goes without being washed for a month or more sometimes. Never had a dead battery, navi works fine, etc. I've left it in the airport parking lot in the hot Florida sun a million times and the interior looks perfect. The only thing is that I've rolled over a few nails with the tires which required replacement at $300+ each. Better than my previous Lexus SC400 which had all kinds of issues.
REMIX |
adrian low (Audionut)
Member
Username: Audionut
Post Number: 342
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 7:08 am: | |
Jeff, does the study differentiate between niggles and major issues? In other words, niggles being minor inconveniences like a dash not fitting perfectly or seats squeaking, vs electrical problems, cars not starting, recalls etc?
Just curious as I've owned, and continue to own, various new Benzs and BMWs. So far other than very minor niggles, no major issues. |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 122
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 10:32 pm: | |
G.Peters,
You probably looking at the hinge covers not the hinges. The hinge covers use several spacers to get the alignment just right. As the cars are hand built, each is a little different. It adds to the charm. 
You are correct about Daimler/Chrysler ranking below Ford. Of the separate marquies of Daimler/Chrysler, Chrysler ranks the highest, Plymouth and Dodge next and Mercedes and Jeep are at the bottom. Audi was down there with Mercedes. Here is the most recent data on vehicle quality if anyone is interested:
That Cadillac CTS-V is looking better and better to me! M3/5 performance with better quality! |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 2815
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 3:55 pm: | |
Get used to it, the German and American marques are clearly coming out with the highest performance cars out there. The C32AMG, RS6, M3, M5, GT3, Viper, Z06 and others come to mind. The best part is that they seem to be able to produce reliable, fast and comfortable cars for lots less than the Italian exotics. While the Ferraris of the world still have that mystic that the others don't, that seems to mean less now than before. While I have aways been a BMW M-car and Ferrari guy, now that Audi is in control of Lambo, they are starting to look pretty good. |
G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
Junior Member
Username: Wfo_racer
Post Number: 180
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 2:40 am: | |
What company makes the Viper ? Dodge I think, are they part of Chrysler ? I don't follow those brands at all but a guy down the street bought one . As we checked out his car I noticed one of the hinges has 5 washers to get a half way decent alignment . The level of Benz's quality and materials has been going downhill in the past five years. When you try and sell $20,000 entry level crap cars and $130,000 cars you will spread yourself and resources too thin. When I bring my wife's E55 in for service work the bays are always full , when I take the Lexus in the level of activity in the service areas is about half. Lastly the JD Powers report that compares quality that came out on 7/8/03 ranked Daimler/Chrysler midpack below Ford of all brands. |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 120
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 3:00 pm: | |
"When Mercedes decided to go after Joe Sixpacks Honda dollars I think they diluted the brand. Getting in bed with Chrysler has given them Chrysler style levels of fit and finish."
Actually if you read the book "Taken for a Ride : How Daimler-Benz Drove Off With Chrysler" you will find that at the time of the "merger" Chrysler's quality level was (and still is) higher than that of Mercedes! If anything, Mercedes is dragging down the quality of Chyrsler!
|
G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
Junior Member
Username: Wfo_racer
Post Number: 175
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 10, 2003 - 11:55 pm: | |
Sure Mercedes builds very strong motors, my wifes E55 had one before before we added the Brabus touch and gave it some more balls. But friends of ours have a 2002 500 CL that has been a pile of crap since they bought it. Car now has 4,000 miles on it and has gone in for major service 11 times. Leather on the drivers seat chaffing the console till leather was stripped off, suspension failure 3X's, car died while on the freeway at 70 mph, battery dies if car is not driven in 3 days (3X's for this), keyless go failed twice, NAV system replaced (screen failure). We joke about which car goes on the hook next my 360 or their CL.
When Mercedes decided to go after Joe Sixpacks Honda dollars I think they diluted the brand. Getting in bed with Chrysler has given them Chrysler style levels of fit and finish.
We use to joke about the three levels of Mercedes owners when they had in the S line the 6,8,12 motors.
We called them Poseurs for those driving 6 cylinder motors -Pretenders for those driving the 8 cylinder motors -Players for the 12 cylinders. The three P's of Benz ownership.
|
James Angle (Jimangle)
Junior Member
Username: Jimangle
Post Number: 68
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 6:05 pm: | |
Alan,
You have to take the road west until it ends, and it turns into a freeway. When you see the signs that say no services for 38 miles after the first curve HIT IT!
Steve,
My boss had a 6.3 merc with a dry sump. I heard they were awesome. |
Coop (360)
Junior Member
Username: 360
Post Number: 154
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 1:35 pm: | |
While we're at it:
http://www.vaeth.com/pages/sl/sl600bt.htm (scroll to the bottom...)
Vaeth Sl600 - 7 1 8 hp / 826 ft lbs / 211 M P H
|
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 119
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 1:22 pm: | |
And I think C stands for "cheapie". I agree but the C's, ML's and E's must make up 80% of their sales, as they are as numerous as ants around here. I think you can lease a Mercedes for less than 300 a month. Wonder when the A class will reach our shores? |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 118
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 1:22 pm: | |
|
Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member
Username: Chevarri
Post Number: 134
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:20 pm: | |
Jeffery
"Mercedes does seem to put a lot more effort in designing their high end cars than their low end ones. As they sell so many more low end C's and E's, their overall quality has dropped significantly"
Thats why I said I would never get an E class car, E stands for Economy. Economy and Mercedes just dont coincide. |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 117
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 11:38 am: | |
Modman,
You are right. Mercedes does seem to put a lot more effort in designing their high end cars than their low end ones. As they sell so many more low end C's and E's, their overall quality has dropped significantly. The SL's always seem to rate highly. Ben who has the supercharged Viper below also has a RENNtech S600 which runs 11.6 in the quater mile. Faster than his wifes 2003 Viper SRT-10! It did cost twice as much as the Viper. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 670
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 09, 2003 - 12:26 am: | |
Hey Jeffrey Caspar my ML had a recall on the power steering hose and the fuel pump got upgraded to a larger one and I did'nt like some of the plastic used behind the seats as when I load stuff into the vehicle it gets scratched, I already had to replace part of the leather interior from loading a decorative concrete barbecue table but the Benz dealer replaced it for free and all the services were done for free so I really don't have much to complain and I love the way it drives and it's got some balls (plenty of torque) unlike the 4.4 BMW which has a delay on throttle response and the torque is much less than what I liked. Also I'm not into the small Benzes but rather the larger series and AMG as they got some brute power and no matter what problems and if they do have any, it would be so minor and would not be a compromise to me at all as Mercedes would take care of any if at all problem or problems without me spending a penny. You have to understand that you are comparing a lower model Benz which are made in the U.S. and I don't care much for them and can see why ratings have gone down for the smaller cars. My ML has had some minor issues which was taken care of but my no means anywhere near a lemon as it is at AMG level of performance although made in the U.S. I was thinking of upgrading the power of it as I have seen in a article of one beefed up that does 12's in 1/4 mile and that would be funny to see the looks of some of these street racers face to see a heavy vehicle blow them away. I love highline Benz cars like the CL55 CL600 as they do almost everything I like in a car that nothing out there comes close in comparison. Kinda like Italian cars, nothing looks more exotic to look at, the only thing I wish for on Italian cars is reliable electronics, esp. buttons and connectors. Enjoy your Volvo, my next door neighbor got rid of his last one due to many electrical problems and just purchased a new one, kinda ironic? Volvo quality seems almost as good as German quality but I cannot rate them as well as some of the other makes I see most of the time. I don't see too many of Volvos them come through the shop. I can't say they are bad since I have not owned one or seen problems with them either. |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 116
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 9:28 pm: | |
Modman,
Just quoting the data of number of defects per 100 cars. The study said nothing about fit and finish or drivability, but if you have data on these please post it. Most uninformed people don't believe the facts either. As you expected, Japanese cars did well with Lexus #1. Honda did well but did score below Cadillac and Buick. I don't think that most of us on this board value lowest # defects per 100 as our first criteria in selecting a car. I hope you didn�t as your ML series frequently appears on the lemon lists!
Regarding US workers, the data I have seen show that 70% or more of defects are due to design flaws which makes since with all the automation in modern auto assembly. Did you see the long-term report on the Mercedes C series wagon in Automobile magazine? The car literally fell apart with the transmission failing, glove box falling off twice, CD player failing twice and many more problems all within the first 10-20k miles. Worst reliability of any car I have ever seen them review.
Good luck with your ML. My wife got a twin turbo XC-90 and Volvo rates even lower than Mercedes! So far no major problems but we'll see.... |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 519
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 2:12 pm: | |
Horsepower to weight ratio.
My 80CC Trackmagic shifter kart will smoke anything for the first 50 yards.
What was the question again???
|
Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member
Username: Stickanddice
Post Number: 1908
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 2:08 pm: | |
I've gotten smoked by a Hayabusa a couple of few times on the highway. Lets just say enough times to earn my respect. Especailly since I was in a friggin' R1. And it obviously smoked my 748S. (DISCLAIMER: I don't have either bike anymore. Although I do have some fairings for the 748)
Cheers |
Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member
Username: Ralfabco
Post Number: 645
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 1:26 pm: | |
Everyone wants to compare a car that has been
ungodly "modified" to a stock Hayabusa with an
aftermarket exhaust and chip.
Just drop a Turbo for 4K in a stock Hayabusa.
Now compare the modified car with the modified bike. Fair is fair. |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member
Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 902
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 12:29 pm: | |
James, no ive never gone out that way. How long ago was Bell Rd like that? Ive taken it quite aways out, and it seems like a regular traffic infested rd.
When i had my Porsche in FT Lauderdale, all we would do is go and hunt bikes. Never lost to one. Porsche was ungodly fast though, and would smoke my Diablo even with spray.
Also, a buddy of mine who has a Porsche similar to the way mine was, his is even faster though, has a turbocharged GSXR 1100. Made 300+ rear wheel hp. Its a 175Mph 1/4 mile bike. |
James Angle (Jimangle)
Junior Member
Username: Jimangle
Post Number: 66
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 8:42 am: | |
Allan,
Well at least you're not afraid to drive your car. I'd like to see that though. I see that you're in Scottsdale. Have you ever taken Bell rd out behind white tank mountains? We used to drive out there all the time. 38 miles and no services, no traffic with somewhat new roads (at the time), two lanes each way seperated by a good median, and turn around spots every 3/4 mile. I used to take my zx-10 out there. If you're going to speed, do it there. It's awesome, and eventually connects into I-10. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 669
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 2:17 am: | |
I don't care what survey says as to my own eyes don't fool me, the driveability don't fool me either, fit and finish- are you kidding? U.S. made vehicles has never been good in the fit and finish dept. Also since some of the Japanese cars have been built in the U.S. the quality went downhill, so much for U.S. pride in workmanship. You can't hide the slopiness of workmanship, I see it everyday. |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member
Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 901
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 12:18 am: | |
Actually i have raced a Hayabusa in my Diablo and using nitrous from about 80-150mph he could not beat me. There are also several vids on the internet of Supras putting a hurting on Hayabusa. Off the line, i stand no chance though. My old Porsche though, is a different story. Bikes are at a huge disadvantage at higher speeds. |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 115
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:23 pm: | |
James,
Actually his Viper is supercharged and he has decreased the boost as at 30 psi and over 1100 RWHP it was too difficult to drive on the street. Would spin the tires up to 150 mph. Click here for an interesting thread on the car. Ben is a really down to earth guy and would be the first to admit that there are some bikes that could easily beat him.
Too bad Mercedes quality has dropped so much. Last quality survey I saw they ranked below every US car company except Jeep in number of defects per car. Still beat Kia, VW and Daewoo! |
Steve M (Steve308gtsi)
Junior Member
Username: Steve308gtsi
Post Number: 136
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 8:06 pm: | |
Out of the new MB's the one that impresses me with luxury and performance is the E55. The thing has 4 doors, weighs about 4400lbs., with a automatic does 0-60 in 4.2, 1/4 mile in 12.4 sec. The Maybach which is basically a limo weighs well over 6000lbs. and does 0-60 in 4.9 and the 1/4 in 13.4 sec.
Whart, I did what needed to be done at my shop some years ago. Alot of it is original. The cost wasn't so bad. Thanks for the compliments guys.
|
Jaime T. Ferraris are sex on wheels (Chevarri)
Junior Member
Username: Chevarri
Post Number: 130
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 6:08 pm: | |
No ones posed the REAL question here to John. What did the hot blonde say/think when you got beat by that family sedan?
By the way John B is right about a boosted Hyabusa, even a n/a Busa would destroy pretty much most cars u pit it against.
Oh yeah MBs are German Muscle cars with luxury, good handling, and a solid reputation for making solid cars to boot. If I were to be given the choice betwenn Johns 355, and the S600 that beat him, the obvious choice would be the Mercedes(JOKE!!! Id have to a grade A, type R ass clown like Allan to not take that 355!!!). I would love to have a MB(excluding E class) for my town car, but when the weekend comes it would be the 3.5 Id be firing up
Its nice to see our favorite Fchat member Allan Lambo back
By the way Steve, thats a lovely 6.3 |
John B (John_b)
New member
Username: John_b
Post Number: 38
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 5:47 pm: | |
I must admit Merc's are getting much more interesting lately. I like the SL55 AMG and the new SLR Gullwing.
As for the the big bore sport bikes, James is right. I have a '99 Suzuki GSX1300R Hayabusa. That thing can make ANY car a small speck in its mirror in a matter of seconds. |
James Angle (Jimangle)
Junior Member
Username: Jimangle
Post Number: 65
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 5:07 pm: | |
Allan,
Race a hyabusa, or anyother big bore bike with a rider that knows what he's doing, and you'll get smoked. Especially from 60-100. Also to the guy that owns a turbo charged viper, why doesn't he race a turbo charged sport bike. I'd bet he'd cry. It would be hard for a car to run with a street legal motorcycle that has over 300 h.p. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 512
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 2:57 pm: | |
Really?
Time to break out the V-8 Vega. |
KCCK (Kenneth)
Member
Username: Kenneth
Post Number: 534
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 2:34 pm: | |
If you look around you, yes, I am afraid that era is back. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 510
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 1:32 pm: | |
I thought that Street Drag Racing from light to light, hit its pinnacle just before the Carter Administration and became entirely antiquated during the Reagan era???
It is back??
I need to get out more!
Cheers.
|
jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Member
Username: Atheyg
Post Number: 350
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 10:58 am: | |
How about racing a motorcycle in the rain with a bag or 2 of groceries and see who wins |
Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member
Username: Lawrence
Post Number: 732
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 9:13 am: | |
Steve, that 6.3 is gorgeous. |
wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member
Username: Whart
Post Number: 1573
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 8:12 am: | |
Steve M: I had a 69 6.3 What a great car. But the cost of restoring one today far exceeds its value unless you plan on keeping it forever. do you still have it? who did the work? |
Thomas I (Wax)
New member
Username: Wax
Post Number: 40
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 3:25 am: | |
Troll |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member
Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 896
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 3:17 am: | |
No it wasnt, but id bet a 250 could smoke my 355 though. |
Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member
Username: Bumboola
Post Number: 143
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 1:27 am: | |
It was probably a Ninja 250R, Allan. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 668
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 1:26 am: | |
And also a motorcycle cannot carry more than 2 passengers comfortably with all the comforts. What is this comparing a Benz to a Ferrari? sounds like stupidity happening again, as a luxury car with power there is nothing out there I've ever seen on earth that you can bring to me as a production car that will ever match the top of the line AMG, power, technology, finish of materials, handling, etc. a lot of you guys are not experienced to give a true judgement of the Benz esp. not ever owning a few, and you can't let one or couple bad trouble with the car make that judgement, I'm sure there are more than quadruple the problems with Ferraris and Italian made cars in general over German made vehicles and there's no denying the facts, advanced technology is seen. You can also tell that some opinions here are from a few who don't even have the experiences of either of these makes. I may not be able to give a legitimate opinion on true Ferrari experience since only owned one but the Benz experience has been the best for me in true performance luxury. Unfortunately I don't like all Benzes except the CL55 & CL600, the rest is just OK, I never had to put a penny into any of my Benzes as far as maintenance since the dealer takes care of that, and problems taken care of no charge with excellent service. |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member
Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 895
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 1:23 am: | |
Great example of cars beating motorcycles. Many cars can and will beat motorcycles. I raced some sort of Jap bike in my Diablo a few weeks ago, not a long race, but from about 60 to 100 and he couldnt pull me. The faster we would of gone, the bigger the disadvantage would of been for him. |
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
Junior Member
Username: Jcaspar1
Post Number: 114
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:31 am: | |
Don't worry. At the end of the day he still had to drive home in his overweight, ugly Mercedes with what sounds like a similar wife. You went home in a Ferrari. I would never considering buying one of those fat pigs of a car, at least till I'm 70!
And remember, a car can NEVER, EVER beat a motorcycle. |
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda
Post Number: 1525
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:37 pm: | |
Way cool Steve M, bet you could park that downtown in one of those "consular official only" parking spots and not even get a second glance... :-) Just get the little flags for each front fender for the country of your choice. |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 777
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 11:22 pm: | |
What exactly does "faster" mean anyway. In a straight line? And if so how long of a straight line. Thru the curves? But what about different trackes that suit different cars. I am sure a jeep wrangler could beat my 308 across a corn field or on a snowy road so I guess in some sense it is faster. I don't care I would take the 355 any day over the MB. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 508
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:50 pm: | |
>>The real street test of most cars in this country which is drag racing from a standing start to the next lite>>.
Oh my gosh, I just had a vision: A concourse 355 with wrinkle wall rear slicks, pizza cutter front tires, and 90/10 valvled front shocks.
Urghhh!
This isn't "American Grafetti" |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 775
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:45 pm: | |
I don't see why you would compare a Ferrari to an AMG MB anyway. Isn't it a hopped up engine from a different company? Not sure about this I am asking. Anyway if the MB is hopped up wouldn't if be fair to compare it to say a Koning (sp) Ferrari? |
Steve M (Steve308gtsi)
Junior Member
Username: Steve308gtsi
Post Number: 135
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:20 pm: | |
People here sometimes just think of a MB as a luxury cruiser. In Europe when driving on the autobahn and you see one in your rear view mirror you better move over to the right. I drove a sedan from Germany to France all day at speeds over 100mph and the thing never broke a sweat or even got hot in the summer. You really get to appreciate these things when you can experience what they are designed for.
My 6.3 was the hot rod sedan of it's time. It would beat most sports cars of that era. I don't abuse it but this thing can smoke the tires from a start and when it upshifts into second it lays down rubber. It still amazes me. Here are some pix. 
|
wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member
Username: Whart
Post Number: 1572
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:03 pm: | |
But then, Art, we are back to the real street test of most cars in this country which is drag racing from a standing start, til the next lite. Going fast on the highway (i mean autobahn fast) will probably get you thrown in jail unless you are careful, lucky and limit yourself to short bursts of speed. Put 'em on the twisties, with a driver of competence, and see whose fast. But, that requires skill. Street drag racing doesn't require much, particularly if you have an automated shifter.
There is still something about being the baddest mo'fo' on the street when you are tooling around in your F car though. You want to show that it has what it takes. Getting dusted by a soccer mom in an AMG minivan is a little embarrassing. But, i don't think turbo is the way to go. I haven't driven the latest crop from MB (drove a small AMG turbo clk in Belgium last year but it was nothing to write home about), but even the GT-2 which is near the top of the heap, turbowise, still has noticeable lag. There is something about a normally aspirated engine with real torque that appeals to me. I say, shove a 12 into a small bodied ferrari, call it a Super Dino, and let's get on with it.I've always loved the litheness of the 8's but the 12s have grunt. Just get the weight down and you'll have an italian rocket. Dump the CD changer, all the fancy seat adjustments, etc. ad naseum, and go back to higher power/weight ratios. Maybe i'm a moron, but those MB's, Bentleys, what have you are still fat tanks. I'll bet ferrari could bury them with the Mega Dino. (And it will confuse the •••• out of Frank Parker; its a Dino, no its not).... |
Ernie (Ernie)
Member
Username: Ernie
Post Number: 771
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 7:49 pm: | |
I have to admit that it is pretty frustrating that my 348 will get dusted by a massaged Mercedes. However would I trade it for one. Oh Puuleeeze, can you say "I don't think so".
How ever I think that people are missing the point with the monster motor Mercs. They are made to be autobombers. To get you from one end of Germany to the other as fast as possible, and do it comfortably. I kinda look at the mega motor Benz's like you would the Concord. It will get you to the other side of the world and do it at super sonic speed. Is it as nimble as an F-15, no. Can it out run one, yes. A Concord pilot said that some fighter jets can fly with it for a while, but they cannot keep the sustained speed like the Concord can. Can the F-15 beat the Concord's ass in a dog fight, yes. Can the F-15 carry 200 people at Mach 2, no.
So I just depends on what you wanna use the car for. Transporting you, or transporting a few. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 2285
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 4:35 pm: | |
The thing about the Ferraris is that it isn't just the acceleration, its the corning, style, et. If I had to bet, there isn't one person on this chat, except for probably Jon and Rob, would are competent enough to get 95% out of one of these cars.
Art |
Ryan Casey Ausmus (Casey_a)
New member
Username: Casey_a
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 3:37 pm: | |
A Ferrari is a piece of art you can drive.
Tired of getting beat by Mercs?
[img]http://www.koenig-specials.com/bilder/bilder600px/600px/04-motor.jpg[/img]
Boost it!
http://www.koenig-specials.com/ |
Robert (Rjklein4470)
Member
Username: Rjklein4470
Post Number: 282
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 2:41 pm: | |
I just test drove a Audi RS 6, and that would take the 355, and a 360 if the driver got beat in the reaction time. Man 450 hp, 0-60 4.5 sec, and it looks very understated. Can you tell I want one. |
KCCK (Kenneth)
Member
Username: Kenneth
Post Number: 532
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 2:19 pm: | |
Now this question from Thomas is really hitting it right on the point.
|
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 507
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 2:15 pm: | |
There is no magic science involved. The HP ratio to engine size for the 355 is phenomenal for a naturally aspirated engine.
So it begs the question: Would you like twin turbos with your order?? |
KCCK (Kenneth)
Member
Username: Kenneth
Post Number: 530
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 2:04 pm: | |
Come what may, I would still prefer my Ferrari to keep pace with the march of times.
|
z. b. (Cheeseman)
New member
Username: Cheeseman
Post Number: 29
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:59 pm: | |
repeat... never been stranded. tank was full. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 506
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:49 pm: | |
Alex, thanks for chimming in.
NICE collection by the way!
I do wish my 355 were more spirited by today's standards, but I am not running out to sell my F- car to buy a Dodge so I can brag that I have the fatest 0-60 car on the block. That is just not me. I appreciate it for the beauty. |
Alex Papas (Alexpapas)
New member
Username: Alexpapas
Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:44 pm: | |
Tom & Thomas are both correct. Ferraris are simply not up to it anymore in absolute performance, BUT they still only produce 4,000 cars per year and their cars are striking to look at, unattainable for most everybody on the planet and everyone loves them! I'm lucky enough to have a bunch of them as well as other assorted cars that go really fast, but I know that my big bad S55 is not going to excite anyone 5 years from now, but my old slow '74 Dino will be an object of desire forever. The same goes for any limited production special car (Lambos, Bentley Azures oldBugattis etc etc) |
Sebastian (Sjblaw)
New member
Username: Sjblaw
Post Number: 32
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:39 pm: | |
tell your boss to put gas in it. |
z. b. (Cheeseman)
New member
Username: Cheeseman
Post Number: 28
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:35 pm: | |
my boss had a 03 CL55 lay down on him this morning. left him stranded on the way to work. he's been driving ferraris for twenty years and has never repeat never been stranded by any of them. car has 10,000 miles. its at the mercedes dealer right now. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 504
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:33 pm: | |
See post below. That is my exact point. If Ferrari does not follow suit in the HP wars, are you going to buy an MB or a Dodge Viper??
|
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 510
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
You guys are missing the point. Ferrari is no longer competitive in the speed wars. Sure top speed maybe,but how many of you have driven your cars at top speed? New cars go faster,with a high degree of luxury, and are RELIABLE. I repeat RELIABLE. And once more, are RELIABLE. How can you tell me it is worth it for you to get beat by a mom in a Benz going shoe shopping, and if you do try to race her, all you have in the back of you're mind is "will she hold together" or "oh boy I hope I don't break anything and be embarassed" Face it Ferrari is not the king of the hill anymore. I have a Ferrari and I love Ferrari but the facts are the facts jack. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 503
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:25 pm: | |
Select marques have a very strong Customer Loyality. Take Harley Davidson for instance: At one point (decades ago) they were the powerhouse, Big Bully on the block. The crotch rockets hit the scene and HD performance median never increased. They did not experince a huge customer attrition for not being the most X, Y, or Z.
In the same fashion, some people wish that the modern day F-Car were a bit more spirited.
However, the Marque's distinct Differeniation leads me to beleive that if they do not come up with a sub-12 second 1/4 mile car over the next 2 years that brand loyality will fall off and go to another substitute ( MB, Chevy, etc).
Agreed? |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 1439
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:21 pm: | |
355 and 360 were among the tops in performance WHEN THEY FIRST CAME OUT. So why crap on Ferrari when NEW CARS are matching the performance of these current and past cars? It's like saying a 250 GTO is junk when it can't outrun a Z06. Technology and time makes the difference. |
Ryan Casey Ausmus (Casey_a)
New member
Username: Casey_a
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:12 pm: | |
You can put a 454ci BB Chevy motor into a 1976 Carribean Yellow AMC Pacer and kill just about anything on the road from stoplight to stoplight.
Does that make you special for doing so?
No, just a tasteless bafoon in serious need of a Coors light break.
There are any number of ways to achieve speed. Horsepower in any given car is directly proportionate to the money invested.
"HP costs money, how fast you wanna go?" -Unknown
<-Has a Supra TT that walks ALOT of really fast cars on the highway.
<-Would still trade his Supra in a second for a 13sec. Ferrari. |
KCCK (Kenneth)
Member
Username: Kenneth
Post Number: 528
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:07 pm: | |
There was a time when even the fastest Mercedes sports models could not achieve 0-60 without taking over 8 seconds.
Mercedes have now really come back with a vengeance. You have to respect them for it.
Whilst there is of course still a lot of attraction remaining in the Ferrari marque, let them not rest on their laurels. |
Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member
Username: Tbakowsky
Post Number: 508
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 12:55 pm: | |
The only thing exotic about exotic cars now-a-days is the price. When you can drop $40,000 and get a factory production car that will pretty much spank most any exotic in one catagory or the other. These exotic auto makers have to come up with something pretty spectacular in order to justify the money their asking for theses cars. I hate to say it..but the only company I see that has any advantage in the exotic car market is Lambo. They have only 2 cars but both out performe anything in the same price bracket. Gold chain crowd or not you have give credit were credit is due. Ferrari has to stop relieing on its past for justification. They will have to start producing cars that are top performers in every catagory so the person who is buyung the car knows that he/she won't get spanked by the Subaru in the next lane. Only then can they continue to charge the prices they are asking for the cars and then people will be more willing to pay for it. |
peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member
Username: Ferraripete
Post Number: 100
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 12:43 pm: | |
yeah,
i know how you feel. i was in my boxer one night and got smoked by a 400 hp honda civic. i was pissed but he was nice enough to pull over and let me inspect his motor work. blown w/nitrous,huge intercooler, h20 injection and other. he told me that he has done an 11.01 on the 1/4 mi. ferraris are not 1/4 mi cars so i have like some other posters chosen to go out on my almost legal ducati corsa to get my revenge.
two weeks ago i ate some clown's lunch in a murcialago...his girlfriend (may have been wife or mistress) was in the car so it became a defining moment!! |
Omar (Auraraptor)
Member
Username: Auraraptor
Post Number: 822
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 12:04 pm: | |
As a BMW man...I am scared...my 2nd fav margue (after Ferrari) is going to have its work cut out for it...esp if they stay away form froced induction....
7spds are coming to BMWs too..but when?
The 760Li (and successor to my baby 750iL) is simply 'underpowerd' when compared to the S600..I mean its not even a comparison. Sure here and there some things are better than the Mercedes..but over alll its not as good.
I hope for BMW sake they strike back..and hard. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 502
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:27 am: | |
Taking a stance against racing with kids in the car, regardless of her claim "that she did not know she was racing" is considered holier than thou??
Okaay. |
P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member
Username: Ferrari_fanatic
Post Number: 500
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:01 am: | |
G.
Racing with kids in the car: "My wife was going the same speed "(or faster as you put it). Smart.
" I did not know that I was racing" (or going faster then the guy was)??? That is the rational??
That is literally my point. Residential speed limits are mostly 25 MPH. Where are you going to use all this HP, as you put it for " stop light to stop light street racing encounters??
Probably time to rethink your priorities.
|
Topdaytrader (Topdaytrader)
New member
Username: Topdaytrader
Post Number: 33
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 2:44 am: | |
Ferrari owner always can come up w/some lame excuse when they get beat...... |
Alex Papas (Alexpapas)
New member
Username: Alexpapas
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 2:19 am: | |
Wassup Alan? why so testy? Didn't the implant work? Oh I forgot . You're tractor boy. Now I understand |
allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member
Username: Allanlambo
Post Number: 890
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 9:56 pm: | |
Markpdx, great picture, but you got it wrong, the Benz would replace the Ferrari.
I dont see what the big deal is about getting spanked by a Benz for you guys, just add it to the list of cars that will also spank you for ex, Corvette Z06,Viper,Lambos, Porsche, .... well, really just about anything out there, barring a Toyota Echo. |
G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
Junior Member
Username: Wfo_racer
Post Number: 174
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 9:55 pm: | |
Hey Mitch and Thomas with your holier than thou attitude's, she was running her normal errands and this ass clown was trying to race her ,she didn't notice Mr Ferrari driver trying to catch her until my son pointed it out to her (3 lane street she was in lane 1 he was in lane 3 -60 mph speed limit ). She has a competition license and goes to the track almost as often as I do. So in answer to your question she was not racing , but from someone who probably get's more than 5,000 miles out of set of tires like you two do it would seem like racing. F_ck off !
Big deal the Benz will stomp most Ferrari's why is this a sore spot with some people? My Busa will spank almost any car on the road for less than $20,000.00
Enjoy your cars and relax , you never know tomorrow may be your last.
For those that say it's not about outright speed , I pose this question : Do you think Michael S. was thinking that Montoya may have a faster car this past weekend at Germany but I'm in a Ferrari ."
|
yasir saifullah (Yasir)
New member
Username: Yasir
Post Number: 34
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 8:37 pm: | |
Don't we all think that the cars we drive are the best cars out there.On the Porsche site they are always talking BS about other makes including the Ferraris,does that make a Porsche a better car ,hell no.
Any way the new ///M5 that's coming out next year would have a V-10 with individual throttle bodies and would have atleast 525 HP with 0-60 in under 4 sec est.Yes AMG's are very quick cars but you really can not compare a ferrari to a Mercedes as they are totally different cars geared towards two different types of people.
Later, Yasir |
Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Member
Username: Karmavore
Post Number: 363
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 5:11 pm: | |
LOL! Mark, that is great! Though you forgot one thing: the big "SV" on the side. Or perhaps it should be "AMG?"
Luke. |
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