| Author | Message | ||
| Malcolm West (Ferrari_uk_tech)
New member Username: Ferrari_uk_tech Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2003 |
The GM auto boxes fitted to 400/412's were standard GM boxes apart from the internals in the valve chest, the govenor and the modulator. Because the engines create a very low vacuum they also had a vacuum amplifer fitted to the engine. The reason they use to fail so often is that these boxes were designed for long stroke, low reving engines - the 400/412 engines are short stroke, high reving engines mw | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5591 Registered: 5-2001 |
My understanding is that the only think that is a birtch to service is the carbs. Actually the previous owner told me that Tim Stanford, who sync'd the carbs told him to never EVER let anyone touch them EVER again. His high note on EVER! Other than that there were no issues with the car I have an I have not heard anybody else complaining either. I can tell you I put 500 KM on the car so far since Saturday and loving it. I have a slight fuel smell which could be a hose leaking. Got to check that in the next days. Looking at the engine though it looks easy and accessable to work on. | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 271 Registered: 9-2002 |
Andreas The maint costs are similar (maybe a touch higher for parts) to the Testarossa, but then again no belt changes are needed!, its probabley about the same to run as any other Colombo engined car. The reason I put that the maint costs are high is that cost to run as a percentage of purchase cost is way higher because of the bargain prices, that and a lot seem to come with their fair share of deffered servicing. Oh almost forgot as the tyres are 415 milimetric's and only done by Michelin they can be a PTA to get hold of | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1721 Registered: 10-2002 |
Brett, thanks for your comments. Very encouraging. Can we elaborate some more on the maintenance/repair costs? Some folks said they're astronomically high. What does that mean in comparison to other 12 cylinders? Testarossas are known for their high maintenance costs (take out the engine) and I think BBis aren't cheap either. Daytonas I don't know. So is the 400/412 really higher than those cars or 'just in good company'? Sad to hear, that the engine doesn't mount to a regular American GM tranny. Man, that would have made for some awesome projects... | ||
| brett swaykoski (Brettski)
New member Username: Brettski Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2002 |
There really seem to be alot of misconceptions about the 400.As far as lack of demand and low prices are concerned it is simple; these are not the the prettiest Ferrari's ever made and the auto tranny is a turn-off for alot of people.That being said however,it is all the guys in the 745's and S-classes that can't take thier eyes off it.IMO it is super sexy once it is moving and as a 'daily' driver what else is cooler??? It is definitely not a sports car but I put 34 000 miles on my '79 308 in 3+ years and the differences only make me appreciate the '78 400 even more.I've loved Ferrari's for 25 years but never more so than now.The 40 000km I've put on the 400 in the past 2 years have been fantastic and I will never sell it because of it's combination of power,comfort,payload and practicality and if you're feeling sporty than take it to the country and shift the three speed manually and 'sweep thru' some long fast bends...then tell me how you feel about the 400.Maintanence...well parts are not cheap but we're talking about Ferrari's right? Goes with the territory but for example an original wire set(12 w/coil wires and hardware),2 distributor caps,2 rotors and 3 belts cost $800us.Combine that with the final evolution of the Colombo carbed 12 ( which is a pleasure to work on) and I confess that I don't understand the problem??? What's the problem...? | ||
| James Angle (Jimangle)
Junior Member Username: Jimangle Post Number: 64 Registered: 9-2002 |
Sorry, I'm half asleep/awake. | ||
| James Angle (Jimangle)
Junior Member Username: Jimangle Post Number: 63 Registered: 9-2002 |
The transmissions weren't beefed up. That's why they used them. A gm400 transmission is one of the strongest transmissions ever made. I know people that have put them in drag cars unmodified except for a shift kit. There the only transmissions that could handle the torgue and the stop and go driving of american roads. The factory trasmissions would wear burn out clutches and so on, and were too expensive to maintain. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
Junior Member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 229 Registered: 11-2002 |
* i believe the GM auto trans was modified/beefed up for the 400, so probably not so easy to swap out with a generic GM tranny, even taking mounting bolt pattern into account. * would be very interested to know if there are any big difficulties in swapping an auto tranny out of a 400 or 412 and putting in a 'proper' 5 speed for the same model. Anyone know of this being done? 1980 was the first year fuel injection came in, as per emission issues. Same on 308i & 512BBi, etc. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1043 Registered: 8-2001 |
Michael: When I bought my car it already was Euro modified......no US side markers, only those small round Euro designs. The car has Tube headers, and Tube exhausts. The fuel injection is original.....K-Jetronic.......ALL the 512 BBi's had this. I have NO problem with heat, even with A/C on, in 90 degree temps......BTW, the A/C is COLD!!!!!! I don't buy the story of those people that state the A/C is inadequate. I haven't driven a US spec car, so I can't answer your question.......but the car is fast enough, with GREAT sounds. | ||
| Michael C. James (Mjames)
Junior Member Username: Mjames Post Number: 72 Registered: 6-2003 |
Henry: Did you notice any significant changes in your car, either in its performance, temperature/heat, reliability, etc. when you converted back to Euro Spec (the way God and Enzo intended)? Inquiring minds want to know... In both the 512 and 400i cars, as I understand, Bosch fuel injection was added around 1980. Was this standard equipment with the Euro Spec cars as well? | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1040 Registered: 8-2001 |
Michael: As a Boxer owner......one that has been converted BACK to the European specs......the value is STILL high. It seems that it doesn't make a difference in the Boxer, whether it is curently emission legal or not......the prices of BOTH are still high. My reason is that the demand outweighs the supply, hence the very much higher prices than the 400i.......even the 412i. | ||
| Michael C. James (Mjames)
Junior Member Username: Mjames Post Number: 70 Registered: 6-2003 |
I can't explain why Boxers are valued as much as they are....granted, they're stunning in design, but the TR trounces them in the HP and Handling depts. for less money. Having never owned a Boxer, I can only say what I've read - there were issues with questionable federalization with them, too. I guess the soaring value of the car helped overcome the issues of shoddy work that was done at the time they were imported. The 400i's never saw this interest, to my knowledge. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1037 Registered: 8-2001 |
Michael: I don't buy the issue of it being a grey market car as a the reason for the low price.....why aren't Boxers priced this low......they are ALL grey market. Due to the reasons that you listed, there is very little demand for this car, hence the very low price......simple economics. | ||
| Michael C. James (Mjames)
Junior Member Username: Mjames Post Number: 68 Registered: 6-2003 |
Since every 400i in the U.S. is a Grey-market car, there's some issue regarding the quality of aftermarket federalization. Parts for the 400i series are very hard to come by - since these cars were never destined for the U.S. market, FNA didn't import many parts for them here. I've spoken to a few mechanics about the 400i - VERY labor intensive, especially if there are Side-Draft Webers to tune. BIG-$$$ service charges for maintenance. When you think "Ferrari", a stretched 2+2 sports sedan with an automatic transmission doesn't readily come to mind. That's BMW's territory. Having said that, I have been offered a black/tan 1979 car that was darn-near mint not long ago. I loved everything except the Auto Tranny....who the hell wants an Auto Tranny in their Ferrari? Not me. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Intermediate Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 1036 Registered: 8-2001 |
The 400i is cheap because not enough people want them......especially the automatic......it is THAT simple.....economics. I would bet that there are more 400is for sale then people wanting them. With this little demand for the car, and VERY high maintanence costs, why are we so surprised by the low prices. While it is a great value, for a 12 cyl Ferrari, even if you buy one in excellent condition, once something breaks then YOU LOOSE!!!!!! Most unfortunate, but true.......due to the LOW demand. I foresee the 308s heading in the same direction. | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Junior Member Username: Beast Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2003 |
I myself have always had the 400i on my short list of desirable Ferrari's. The one i am looking for is a 5 speed instead of an auto since they are the less prevelant of the bunch. Looking in the "standard catalog of Ferrari" it states "Ferrari never certified the 400i for sale in the US, though occasional examples crept in via the grey market" I just wonder if there an accurate count of the number of cars that have made it into the US? | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 477 Registered: 10-2002 |
Interesting! So many components of that car are shared with my 78 308. Off hand--the steering wheel, the light switch stalk, the parking brake handle/lever, and the climate control levers. Also the rear taillight assemblies. And possibly the brake fluid reservoir and charcoal emissions canister. Willing to venture the brake calipers are the same, too. Hey, just as in software--reuse is the way to do it! Figure if it's a Ferrari, no need to distinguish every model down to every last component  . Wonder what the fusebox is like! | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 263 Registered: 1-2002 |
I used to have a 400i, A great car, Just make sure you get a 5-speed. The 3-spped automatic is hopeless. Rijk | ||
| James Angle (Jimangle)
Junior Member Username: Jimangle Post Number: 62 Registered: 9-2002 |
To those wondering, The gm 400a transmissions used on the ferrari's, jags and so on can not be mounted to an american engine and vice versa. They use a different mounting patterns. Instead of the usual 4 bolts they use 8 or so. | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 478 Registered: 10-2001 |
Looks like a fine car to me and heck, at that price, why not! It's not going to be me this time around but at some point I wouldn't mind having one for any auto trans needs. Yep, GM auto trans can be found in many higher end Italian cars and some lower end as well (auto trans used in 70s/80s fiat is gm, like from the chevette or something). | ||
| Chris Horner (Cmhorner17)
Junior Member Username: Cmhorner17 Post Number: 234 Registered: 4-2002 |
Uh Martin, is that the right price on your website???? Sure that's not a misprint???? | ||
| Jordan Witherspoon (Jordan747_400)
Intermediate Member Username: Jordan747_400 Post Number: 1650 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jesus Martin that is a good deal!!! I might have to seriously talk to my parents about that car. | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 433 Registered: 9-2001 |
GM provided automatic transmissions for many high end sports cars of that era, including 6-cylinder BMW's and the 3-speed automatic that came on the 12-cylinder XJS.. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1719 Registered: 10-2002 |
Nonono! The other way round: Replace your GM engine with one from a 400i that is in bad shape. Would that work? | ||
| Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Member Username: Karmavore Post Number: 365 Registered: 12-2002 |
I think I've heard of people replacing the ferrari engine with a GM one. Am I crazy? Luke. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1718 Registered: 10-2002 |
All very interesting comments, thanks! Kenny and Martin, that sounds like music to my ears (no, I won't jump the gun just yet). I figured they can't be *that* bad, but rather underappreciated. The tranny thing still has me puzzled: Could this engine be mated with a regular GM tranny from a US car? Some Frankenferrari project comes to mind, but seriously, would that work? It sounds so close being GM and automatic. | ||
| Michael Zaic (Mikez_nj)
New member Username: Mikez_nj Post Number: 49 Registered: 12-2002 |
Didn't DES say in another thread that his transmission on his Saturn went? He should throw out the Saturn, take the money for the new tranny, and put it towards Martin's 400! What a nice car... | ||
| Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Member Username: Karmavore Post Number: 364 Registered: 12-2002 |
That car is phat, plain and simple. Luke. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5583 Registered: 5-2001 |
I just took a 400Automatic in on Saturday. I know the car and the owner. He bought the car 2 years ago and used it as a daily driver. He had no issues whatsoever. The car runs perfect and strong. I have used the car since Saturday and must say I was very very surprised. It is very comfortable and very luxurious. The seats are the best seats I have sat in so far. They give great support, as Ferrari seats do but yet are plush and comfy. The car has 2 AC units. Front and rear, just like today's cars. It is in excellent condition and has no isses I would say are a downturn. I can highly recommend the 400 for a family sedan and or daily driver. It is more driving and belnding in, not a good chance to get a speeding ticket for driving red cars but it does have the speed and pickup. We bought is good and will sell it good! http://www.miamioffices4rent.com/cavallino/invent/8_5_400A.htm | ||
| Kendall Kim (Kenny)
Member Username: Kenny Post Number: 432 Registered: 9-2001 |
They're cheap, because not many people want a 2+2 GT car, and many of the 400i/412i series came in automatic.. It's resale value is in line with other GT cars of that era, like the Porsche 928, BMW 850, Jaguar Xj12 | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 269 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yep good old GM box as used in pretty much every other 70's-80's luxury automatics, but with a twist some of the casing is alloy where GM's arent and some of the nuts and bolts are metric | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1437 Registered: 8-2001 |
I think they also have a problematic self-leveling rear suspension. They look great in the metal though. Another factor is that it's a 2+2. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1715 Registered: 10-2002 |
It probably is the most 'economic' way to have a 'real' Ferrari: V-12 and in front. At a recent concours a 400i even stole the show and won ahead of all kind of newer and more 'hip' Ferraris. Any word on the tranny? Isn't that a GM thing and wouldn't that make maintenance less expensive? | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 268 Registered: 9-2002 |
Andreas, they are cool cars, but very expensive to get some of the bits to keep them running properly. which means that as a cheapy Ferrari a few owners do the minimum to keep em running. Eg. to replace the exhaust headders you have to remove all the injection kit and some of the front suspesion!!! and once its all apart you'll have a heart attack at the price of replacements The rear suspension is self leveling, whilst its a similar design to a Rolls Shadow or some Citroens it costs thousands just to replace the shocks if you could find a good one where the owner hasnt skimped on the time or the money to keep it in great condition you'll have a fast(ish) very comfortable XJS/6 Series alternative with that all important V12 upfront. I find mine was great for going out for the night, stylish Rare and room for lots of women! | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1105 Registered: 10-2001 |
They cost a lot to maintain and most have been seriously neglected, so the low prices reflect the condition. They are not popular like a Daytona! Still, I've seen nice ones in the mid 30's which I think is cheap for such a great car. My mechanic had a convertible in that he said was factory but I'm pretty sure they only made coupes; sharp car though. It needed engine work and I bet it cost a fortune. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 1714 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just did a quick search in ebay and noticed a few very low end priced 400i. Why is this model so unexpensive? Missing some of the cachet as an automatic and sedan? Expensive to maintain the 12V? I always thought they were cool cars and so rare, so I'm amazed to see them sell so low. What am I missing? |