| Author | Message | ||
| Topdaytrader (Topdaytrader)
New member Username: Topdaytrader Post Number: 34 Registered: 9-2002 |
Just chip the GT2 and it'll kick F50's ass. | ||
| Kevin Paul (Klfpaul)
New member Username: Klfpaul Post Number: 18 Registered: 4-2003 |
Ahh, Sorry Taek, What I meant was that on that occasion on that tight twisty (autocross) track the Miata beat the Diablo. That's all. Meaning no car is infallible. Now that this horse has been beat to death. I can sleep comfortably. ha ha Salut  | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1922 Registered: 11-2002 |
Kevin, I started the thread with the intention of posting the Diablo's time. >>I have seen two good driver's go at it, one Diablo, one Miata on the same tight autocross course, and the Diablo lost due to it's sheer size and being overpowered for the course.<< >>a Miata can hand a Diablo it's A$$ on a platter.<< I threw in the Murcielago to address the original postings on the Murcielago's behavior on the track. Cheers | ||
| Kevin Paul (Klfpaul)
New member Username: Klfpaul Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2003 |
I re-read my previous posts and absolutely can't seem to find where this Murci. Vs. Miata or Miata vs. supercar, other than on an autocross, thing started. You took my hypotheticals and turned them into some sort of statement of fact, even backing it with numbers?? I am well aware almost no Miata will hang with something like a Murci (or whatever). The only thing I was eluding to was that there are as many different tracks as different cars to go around them, with no one car always having an ultimate advantage for whatever reason. Do some cars excel more than others...Yes. Do some cars do better over one lap, than over a race distance, certainly. But do they always excel and DESTROY all contenders, certainly not. Certainly the Murci. is a VERY good car, but is it all dominating, no, but your statements about it all are true, in my opinion. Is an F50 all dominating, 99 percent of the time maybe, is an Enzo all dominating, probably, but one can't say always, is a Miata all dominating, maybe on a very tight autocross circuit, but thats probably it, etc. Again, how this Miata-Murci. thing got started I don't know. They were only examples that I was using to present a point. If there is anyone who enjoys ALL performance autos it is me. I certainly, as stated in my previous posts, could have put any car in my statements to represent my position. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 904 Registered: 6-2002 |
Yes i have an Sv, but the 98's have an additional 20hp, more torque, adjustable suspension and bigger brakes. Much better car than what was tested. Mario Andretti is a huge Lambo enthusiast ownig several Countachs and Diablos. He has been the grand marshall at the Running of the Bulls, and i have him on tape saying that Lamborghini was the best roadcar available. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1918 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Taek, a early model Sv Diablo with small brakes also recorded an 8.09, tying the 360 and i believe beating the 550.<< I wouldn't doubt it at all. I've driven SVs and they are faaaast cars (you have an SV model, right?). It's easy to say Lamborghinis suck on the track because they have no interest (some now, I think) on racing and their owners usually don't use them as track tools (save the all Lamborghini series). When it comes down to it, just about every very qualified driver who has driven a Lamborghini has been impressed. Derek Bell and Mario Andretti to mention only two come to mind immediately. Doesn't Andretti have a Diablo or two? I think I remember him being quoted in a Lamborghini car gathering saying that Lamborghini was in his opinion the best road car in the world. Cheers | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 903 Registered: 6-2002 |
This is an old video that has been discussed many times. The F50 is not stock and the driver has hundreds of hours of seat time in it, the Nsx-r, which i think is an awesome car, was also driven by a driver with 100's of hours in an Nsx, and the car was driven very well and hard, notice how he hit every berm head on, the driver of the Murcielago had no seat time, the owner had just bought it, and told him to take it easy. The Nsx-r though, is no joke, big difference from a regular Nsx. Taek, a early model Sv Diablo with small brakes also recorded an 8.09, tying the 360 and i believe beating the 550. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1912 Registered: 11-2002 |
Check out the lap times of a Diablo in some of the famous courses they ran for testing. Varied in both twisties and high speed testing. Get a Miata to do the same. Now check the Murcielago times in some of these same tracks to. They were VERY impressive. It'll school many many capable cars with the radio blasting. There are hard numbers behind the claims. For example: http://www.bmwdeler.no/nordschleife.html Excerpts from above link... >>20,600 km 7,52 = 159 km/h 2002 Lamborghini Murcielago 570 ps, Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto 2002. 20,600 km 7,46 = 160 km/h 2001 Porsche 996 GT2, Horst von Saurma, Sport Auto 2001. 20,600 km 8,03 = 154 km/h 996 GT3, Sport Auto. 20,600 km 8,04 = 153 km/h Lamborghini Diablo GT, Sport Auto 2000. 20,600 km 8,05 = 153 km/h 2002 Ferrari 575 Maranello, Sport Auto 2002. 20,600 km 8,09 = 152 km/h Ferrari 360, Sport Auto 2000 20,600 km 8,12 = 152 km/h 2002 MB SL AMG, Sport Auto 2002. 20,600 km 8,32 = 145 km/h 2003 Aston Martin DB7 GT 442 hp, Sport Auto 2003. 20,600 km 8,42 = 142 km/h Lotus Exige, Sport Auto. 20,832 km 9,30 = 131 km/h Toyota MR2 156 hp, Autobild.<< Closest thing I could find to a Miata was the MR2. Small affordable roadster that is very tossable. Also threw in the Lotus in there which in my opinion is a superior track car to the Miata. Yes, even in really twisty roads. Note how close to the GT2 it comes. The GT2 being one of the most capable track cars you can legally drive on the streets. The Murcielago also exelled in other tracks in the rest of Europe. I trashed it but had gotten an email from my Lamborghini broker with some lap times on other famous circuits with comparisons. The Murcielago does not disappoint. Notice the Diablo is also doing pretty well in lap times. No bench racing here. This isn't a pissing contest, but if you are going to misrepresent any supercar by trying to match it with a Miata please substantiate. The Miata must have been EXTREMELY modified. Even then with equal drivers the Diablo/Murcielago would smoke it. It's like comapring a 575M to a Miata on the track. Even though the M is a GT and heavy. To make such comparisons is simply not viable. GT cars nowadays are doing some pretty impressive driving on or off the track. Technology is THAT good. Cheers | ||
| Kevin Paul (Klfpaul)
New member Username: Klfpaul Post Number: 16 Registered: 4-2003 |
Again we have classic bench racing! People will not accept that this car will beat that car. >>A Diablo would kill a Miata even in a figure 8 race. And the Murcielago will destroy an NSX, even the R<< Sure there are tracks where one car will dominate another and vice versa, irregardless of price. Why else would we have different tracks, each with their own traits rewarding a car or driver with certain characteristics or handling abilities. I am not saying an F50 won't beat a NSXR most all of the time, their design philosophies are too similar. But, the NSXR, for example, a track designed car, can and will beat a Murci, a GT car, (or whatever, I dont want a flame war), given the right track and if it doesn't do it immediately, it will when the GT car overheats the brakes or motor by carrying all the GT weight and amenities. See where I',m going? And yes, I have seen two good driver's go at it, one Diablo, one Miata on the same tight autocross course, and the Diablo lost due to it's sheer size and being overpowered for the course. Yes I know God forbid, but it does happen. And by the way, I am not partial to Miata's, never driven one, just an example. Again, No flame war, I just get tired of hearing >>my (insert car here) will destroy your (insert assumed lesser car here) on a track.<< Again there are just too many variables in Real Racing, to make these blanket statements. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 943 Registered: 4-2002 |
">>If you want to get twisty enough (say something like autocross(never done it), a Miata can hand a Diablo it's A$$ on a platter.<< I really really don't think so. " All you need is a road that is only 66" wide, the diablo won't even fit, while the Miata has room to spare. Or you could use a road with more than 1 foot of elevation change in less than 100" of linear travel. The miata would travel this while the Diablo would grind off its nose. But what I really would like to see is the Tripple jumps............. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1906 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>If you want to get twisty enough (say something like autocross(never done it), a Miata can hand a Diablo it's A$$ on a platter.<< I really really don't think so. You are definitely right in that a lot, depends on the driver though. I remember recently a friend of mine, and fellow FChatter, mentioned a very interesting video. They put a guy with little experience on a track with a good sports car (was it Porsche, Ferrari?) and an expert driver in a minivan. The minivan won. With 0-60 times probably in the double digits. Holding a line is also important. This isn't a race that is sanctioned by teams etc. They don't want to bend sheetmetal and stuff. A Diablo would kill a Miata even in a figure 8 race. And the Murcielago will destroy an NSX, even the R. I've driven Diablos and Murcielagos and I think the poor handling characteristics are more myth than truth. I've taken right angle turns in a Murcielago/Diablo at speed and barely gotten a tire chirp. I haven't driven a Miata, so I can't compare. But I've driven just about everything from Toyota Celicas to McLaren F1s and I can honestly say that a Miata won't beat the Diablo in anything but parallel parking in downtown London. Cheers | ||
| Kevin Paul (Klfpaul)
New member Username: Klfpaul Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2003 |
Horsepower wise yes, handling wise no. It's far to easy to make blanket statements and say my (insert car here) will destroy your (insert assumed lesser car here) on a track. Bench racing..., gotta hate it. As we all should know, racing depends on many factors, car, driver, setup, weather, reliability, the rain in spain, etc, and all things are never equal. Different track and a different car may win. Tight and twisty vs. long straights. If you want to get twisty enough (say something like autocross(never done it), a Miata can hand a Diablo it's A$$ on a platter. For the nothing that it's worth, Just my two cents....... | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 537 Registered: 10-2002 |
This is an old video that was available several months ago. I commented on this video some time ago in another thread. F50 came 1st. Way out in front. All the way. GT2 came 2nd. Murcielago came 3rd. What it lost in the corner to the NSX-R, it gained back on the straight easily. NSX-R came 4th. Gemballa came 5th. Of course, this is the results of just this test. It will not be fair to say that this is the be all and end all. Taek has a point. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 323 Registered: 8-2001 |
Just look at the best lap times at the end of the video.If you're not convinced, read the April 03 issue of EVO. With a measly six cylinder 3.2L normally aspirated engine, a 15 years old chassis and at about a third of the Murc price, I say the NSX should continue to be the object of envy and criticism (ususally by people who never owned or lived with one) | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1904 Registered: 11-2002 |
The cars were not raced as aggressively as they could have been. Watch how the Murcielago walks away from the NSX at the end. He almost lost it in a corner too. I think both the NSXR and C4S are out of their league here. Cheers | ||
| Jason W (Pristines4)
Member Username: Pristines4 Post Number: 578 Registered: 12-2002 |
Kept the Murc at bay the entire time. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 2870 Registered: 2-2001 |
NSXR has no business with these cars, it would get its butt kicked, Badly | ||
| Craig Williams (Craigw)
Junior Member Username: Craigw Post Number: 173 Registered: 4-2002 |
Great video, scroll down untill you dfind it. http://www.rsportscars.com/eng/video.asp |