| Author | Message | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 156 Registered: 3-2003 |
My definition of HARD use:  This is what happens when you don't check your brake pads. Ouch!  | ||
| gian maria traversone (Giamma)
Junior Member Username: Giamma Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2002 |
great article. It was a bit predictable anyway looking at the weight to power ratio of the two cars, a comparason between the Stradale and GT2 should be more interesting... I agree with the comments they make in the article about not including the Gallardo, a havier car with low end torque even if 4x4 is not as agil as these two.. only considering the huge engine braking in an hard downshift of a 5000 cc torquy engine.... by the way , looks like a great magazine this EVO.. | ||
| Mfennell70 (Mfennell70)
Junior Member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 157 Registered: 7-2001 |
Yep. A friend of mine got his GT3 with regular brakes for exactly that reason. He figures the $8000 saved buys him rotors and pads for the rest of his life.  He did euro delivery on his car. Picked it up, put some miles on it, drove straight to the 'ring. Nice. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 153 Registered: 3-2003 |
A couple of things, Ceramic rotors have a very low coeffiecient of friction. So what they do is make the surface a little rough and use relatively soft pads. This makes it easier to for pad material to transfer to the rotor and this is what you really have for a friction surface. The soft pads wear out more quickly and in turn protect the rotors. If you track the car, the pads must be regularly checked and replaced when needed. Anybody that regularly tracks a car with standard brakes goes through the same procedure but it is less expensive. I do not believe that Ferrari will charge the same prices for Stradale pads that they do for Enzo pads even though they are the same parts, with probably different part numbers. Porsche did indeed have a large amount of problems with the first generation PCCB systems (when tracked hard) and supposedly have made a lot of improvements in the latest version. Those benefits are said to be included in the Brembo system on the Ferraris ( PCCB systems are developed by Porsche, SGL Carbon and Brembo, in partnership.) Actually, Porsche claims a life of 100,000 miles on a PCCB rotor for street use and only 1500 (yes,1500) miles for racing use. I went back to the Car & Driver article and it states the replacement cost of the rotors and pads but does not state that Rapp actually paid for it. They may very well have been covered by the warranty, if the Enzo even comes with one. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 108 Registered: 5-2003 |
Paul..... I follow several Porsche boards and haven't seen anyone refer to replacing PCCB brakes yet (my "life" comment was from their own marketing material.....does Ferrari make the same boast ?).....but the point of my post was just what you brought up in your last sentence...."They CAN do that".... I will be the first here to criticize Porsche for seriously overcharging on options and items from their "exclusive" department.....and some will say that they have sold their soul for pure profit these last few years as a result......but a brake system from Ferrari that requires replacement at cost of 15% of the total car (using the 360 Challenge Stradale example) is outright ridiculious. In any event......time will be the arbiter here. | ||
| Justin (Justin)
New member Username: Justin Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2003 |
Porsche will actually replace pads etc. for PCCB if the car is still under warranty. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 152 Registered: 3-2003 |
You must not frequent any Porsche boards if you think the PCCB rotors on a Turbo or GT2 are "good for the life of the car." Tracking a car costs money. Tracking a car hard costs a lot of money. A GT2 driven 600 HARD miles on a track, similar to what the Enzo was subjected to, would have similar issues, if not sooner. PCCB brakes were really designed for street use, with occasional track use. The Enzo may have worn it's pads (which under very hard use, wear quickly) to the point of damaging the rotors due to infrequent checking of pad wear. Was it driven on the track say, 5 or 10 hard laps at a time, with breaks in-between, or was it driven hard for Grand Prix (200 mile) distances? And those prices were for all four corners, not just the front. Porsche doesn't exactly have a "fire sale" going on for replacement PCCB parts. Check the prices. I would think 360 replacement prices would be somewhat more in-line with these rather than the Enzo parts. It's Ferrari... They CAN do that! | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Junior Member Username: Kds Post Number: 107 Registered: 5-2003 |
Driving impressions notwithstanding, both cars have carbon based brake systems. The Ferrari has the same brakes as the Enzo according to the magazines I have read....costing $24K USD for 2 rotors and $6K USD for front pads after 1,200 miles of track use on J.Rapp's Enzo in the recent C&D magazine road test. The GT2 and GT3 have the Porsche PCCB system.....the pad prices are not known to me....but the rotors are "good for the life of the car" and not needing replacement according to Porsche. The "life of the car" may very well be 100K miles of road use....but I would be hard pressed to suggest "value" can be found in the Challenge Stradale based upon this and other comparisons of operating costs with similiarily performing vehicles. Don't get me wrong...I like F-cars....but really scratch my head sometimes when I look at what they produce from time to time. | ||
| James Govan (Admiral_thrawn)
New member Username: Admiral_thrawn Post Number: 26 Registered: 7-2003 |
>>i cant read either but whats jist of article. ive been anticipating this comparo for long time. do they mention the old turbo gt2 which would have been closer to stradiale in $ and performance but no longer made?<< No, they don't mention it, but I'm certain the 911 996 GT2 would be quicker than either of the cars tested in this review, having more horsepower, torque and even stiffer and lower suspension. The GT2 will do 0 - 62mph in the very high 3's and the 1/4 mile in the very high 11's. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 151 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hugh, I would have preferred lap times on a track as well, but referring to the Stelvio Pass as "backroads" is akin to calling a McLaren F1 "a means of transportation." | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1926 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hugh, I just thought about this a bit, and I'd like to change my postition. I think that magazine articles should be either classified as driving impressions and driving tests or a mixture of both. Given the demographics of who would purchase cars like these, a little more "hard" numbers would definitely be a more indicative article than just some guys playing with the cars in a twisty road. In a nutshell, I agree with you in that it needs some more info. Cheers | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1218 Registered: 1-2002 |
Pi, stack or even the "strap on" variety are okay with me; my point was: street driving is cool (albeit mostly slow and boring), but we all know (or we'd presume) that the cars would be fast, stiff, have good brakes, maybe wobble a bit here there, show good turn-in, mild understeer, and can wag their tails in nearly synaptic syncopation, on command, and just like that. However, the devil is in the details, or in this case, in the numbers... I wanna know how many, how long , how well , and how reproducibly can the car do any one of the itterative functions listed above before it fails, fades or simply rolls over? Sorry, but that's how my beffudled brain works. PS: you still thinkin' of comin' down to buttonwillow, chewin' some tabbacky and go plowin' in my tractor on the 23rd of this month? PPS: I also happen to be one of the cruely stupid, as I still don't see the GT 3 as extreme enough, and still linger for a GT 3 RS (in clubsport trim.) Carpet? Just stains, right? Sound deadning? Bah. Cargo space? Look, honey, I can hang the groceries off it. Yah, I'm hopeless. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1924 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hugh, I just calibrated my a$s dyno. It gives good readouts. Depending on the color and size of the stain on the undies I can give very accurate readings to the thousandth decimal. Seriously though. I think that would be more reserved for the Challenge vs. RS models. These are, after all, street models. I think that people like to hear general impressions because not everybody, me inclusive, can accurately formulate an opinion based on readouts. Plus I bet they're too cheap to have a Pi system on there. Cheers | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1217 Registered: 1-2002 |
Why'd they do this on backroads? Good for driving impression, but I'd like to see sustained G's , and actual readouts of the cars peformance; there's only so much accuracy in human accounts of inference, and only so much to glean from the same. I'd like telemetry read outs and lap times. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 150 Registered: 3-2003 |
I find this statement in the article striking: "I find myself cursing the GT3's lack of grunt. It's an absurd complaint in a car that is capable of hitting 100mph in just 9.4 seconds, but the sight of a bright red Ferrari hollering off into the distance tends to give you a slightly warped perspective of what fast really is." FYI, Car And Drivers instrumented test results of the GT3: 0 to 60: 4.0 seconds 0 to 100: 8.8 seconds 0 to 130: 14.8 seconds Standing quarter mile: 12.3 seconds @ 118mph | ||
| J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Junior Member Username: Jeff Post Number: 234 Registered: 2-2001 |
Paul Thanks. Great article. I found it easier to read if you click on the "printable version" icon just above the title of the story. I turned down an offer to trade my 2002 Spider for a Stradale. After reading this article I'm having second thoughts. | ||
| neal (95spiderneal)
Junior Member Username: 95spiderneal Post Number: 223 Registered: 3-2002 |
i cant read either but whats jist of article. ive been anticipating this comparo for long time. do they mention the old turbo gt2 which would have been closer to stradiale in $ and performance but no longer made? | ||
| Me Myself (Kid_enzoz)
Junior Member Username: Kid_enzoz Post Number: 138 Registered: 4-2003 |
Cool. Can't wait to see they compair the Stradale to the GT3 RS. | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 149 Registered: 3-2003 |
The pages are laid out "side by side" like the actual magazine. I was a little confused at first. BTW, I feel for anybody that uses dial-up. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
Intermediate Member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 1916 Registered: 11-2002 |
Thanks for the post, but I'm finding it hard to read and scroll. I'll go out and get it from the newstands. I'm on the prowl for Vintage Motorsport anyway! Cheers | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 148 Registered: 3-2003 |
Article scanned from Evo magazine: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=971851 Good read. |