| Author | Message | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2003 |
I use 8 slotters all round. Tried 24 but too much pad wear...what are you using? Cracking still occurs, but bite is better. Pad choice is huge and down to preferance. Try PFC93 Front, and Pagid RS14-B rears though, it's my favourite. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 558 Registered: 6-2001 |
Just had slotted rotors fitted on the front of my 360 CH. suposed to help with heat dissipation without the possibility of stress cracks that you can get with drilled rotors. So far so good, although I only did a few laps with the original 360 rotors, so can't really compare. I believe these are aftermarket non-Ferrari parts and were 1/2 price of the standard Ferrari rotors. Pads are also 1/2 the price and have excellent grip. If any of you will be at the Glen at the end of the month come take a look, and I'll find out the manufacturer from Classic Coach. Got tired of paying $500 for a set of Ferrari pads. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2003 |
Oh, and for fluid, use Castrol response for affordable quickish track work, or go full Brembo race fluid and change it every 3 months. | ||
| Phil Hughes (Ferrarifixer)
New member Username: Ferrarifixer Post Number: 46 Registered: 7-2003 |
I don't know if Pagid pads are available in US, but here in Australia I use Pagid RS19. They're yellow for ID purposes and are perfect for track use. A little squeal, a little hard on rotors, but trustworthy, consistent and feel good. The main problem with 360 brakes is that there is NO COOLING. In fact, the uprights actually have steel plates blocking any air from getting in. Challenge wheels help brake temperature a little, and look good so go for it if you can, but be aware they may have warranty issues with your road car. The challenge brakes bare little resemblance to road car brakes, even the front ducting won't go straight on as you need to fit rack stops to reduce lock in case of fouling. The Stradale is the car to get....if you can sell your small Island quickly enough to pay for it! | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 377 Registered: 3-2002 |
John, I had similar experience in my 360. First track day, after about 12 minutes, the brakes started getting spongy. So, I left, got the fluid changed. With nice fresh fluid (standard Ferrari stuff), I made it to about 17 minutes when the brakes began to fade a bit. Took it in... looked okay. Next session, got big-time fade... in fact, I completely evaporated one of the pads. Oops. OTE #1. Anyway, I ended up switching to Carbotech Panther Plus pads... the highest heat resistance in a pad that has great cold-temp stopping (for the street) without being harsh on rotors. I've been very happy with these pads (though they are a bit noisy on the street). Next time out, I was stopping much stronger, started braking later... spongy feel returned. The new pads were now heating up too much for the standard Ferrari fluid. And that happened quick, coming into a corner... ended up faced the wrong way, but on-track. Switched to Castrol SRF. Expensive, but I don't like OTEs... or looping. Many track days since, and I've had no problems. Both pads and rotors are holding up okay. When I go through my stock rotors, I do plan to switch to Brembo's race rotors for the 360... much higher heat tolerance and much lighter weight. HTH. | ||
| Dr. Anthony Lizano (Docapl)
New member Username: Docapl Post Number: 46 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yes they do have Ferrodo 2500 's for the 360. I have a set in my garage. Not on the car yet but size matches old pads exactly. | ||
| John B (John_b)
New member Username: John_b Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2003 |
Oh well, back to square one. It seems Ferrodo doesnt make DS2500 pads for the 360. What other kind of pads has anyne had success with. Im looking for something that will survive better on the track yet still be functional for street use. I'm willing to put up with a little squeal. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 769 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm not being harsh here, but the bushing difference in regard to utilizing magnesium Challenge wheels, or magnesium OEM wheels is irrelevant. The softer bushings on road cars are to isolate certain noise frequencies which results in a more pleasant road driving experience. Race cars have hard bushings as the chassis is designed for grip only, harshness be damned. Semantic issue: A race brake pad compound will continue to operate (have high friction characteristics) at 1000oF + temperatures, as opposed to a street-tuned brake pad, which may begin fading at 800oF or so. A "race" brake pad will not "pump out more heat", they will operate at higher temperatures, and consequently the remainder of the system will also operate at higher temperatures. I agree that upgrades in this situation should be done progressively, as just a simple pad change with fresh fluid (bled before each event) may solve all the issues of track-day brake fade. Agreed, larger rotors yields a larger heat sink, and longer component life, greater tolerance for fade, not necessarily shorter stopping distances. An easy data gathering tool is temperature paint applied to the edge of the brake rotor to see how hot the rotor is getting. I bet you guys are seeing up to 1100oF, depending on the track and driver technique. Here is where the race pads will shine. Rebuilding calipers is a must, at least annually if you do five or six weekends a year. All good advice and information in this thread, for sure.  | ||
| Dennis (Bighead)
Junior Member Username: Bighead Post Number: 193 Registered: 2-2003 |
John, here's my two cents. On your braking problem, start with replacing one component at a time. If a new set of pads, or different type of fluid works well for you, why go to the (huge) expense of fitting new rotors? There was a GREAT article in Roundel (the BMW CCA magazine) earlier this year that was a primer on upgrading braking systems. With the same set of tires and wheels, bigger calipers or bigger rotors or slotting or drilling won't necessarily make your stopping distances any shorter; these "upgrade" are designed to increase the brakes' ability to pump out heat, thereby increasing the number of TIMES that the brakes will work well. After all, if your brakes are working well enough to trigger the ABS, you ain't stopping any faster. The article went on to discuss how changing pad compound is the single biggest improvement you can make, and is often the least expensive. Obviously, pad compounds are cooked to different recipes for different applications; those designed for track use will pump out more heat and take more abuse. So start with changing from stock pads to either a race pad, or if your car is a street car, a race/street combo pad. I've had great luck with the Performance Friction carbon-metallic PFC-97 compound pads on my 355; they will last at least half a driving season for me, and I use my brakes HARD (I outbrake nearly all of my friends in their Challenge cars). As for brake fluids... Castrol SRF is fantastic, but it is insanely $$$$. Compare DRY boiling points; Castrol SRF is the highest, but I think you'll find that any DOT 4 fluid will work well. WET boiling points are not important, as you'll be changing your fluid frequently enough that it shouldn't be absorbing moisture. I can flush the fluid on the 355 by myself, using a motive power bleeder, on both bleed screws on each caliper, in about a half hour, using a $11 can of ATE (Super blue alternative with 2000 gold). Or you can go down to your local Ford dealer and buy Ford HD fluid, for something like $6 a can; nearly the same DRY performance (not so good wet). So, start with the change in pads. And make sure to start with fresh brake fluid too. If you're still boiling your fluid, switch to a higher-rated fluid, including SRF. And then, only if you're still having braking problems, should you consider upgrading the hardware. Oh, also consider how you're using your brakes. If you're riding your brakes into the zone, you'll build up more heat. Since you're a racer, I assume that you're not doing this, but for any track newbies reading this -- We all drive the same way on the street; we apply the brakes initially at, say, 25%, then gradually increase pressure until we hit, say, 50-60%. Bad for lap times, and not so good on the brakes. Try picking a later braking point, but then apply full pressure on the brakes at the initial bite - don't be afraid of engaging ABS, especially if you're braking in a straight line. When you've bled off sufficient speed, get off of the brakes and stay off. This really helps the brakes last. As for wheels and tires.... Since you already have the Challenge rims, stick a set of sticky tires on them, mount them on the car, and have fun (assuming you can find a way to schlep the wheels to the track). Pilot Cups are great, and last longer than most R compound tires, but are $$$. People I've talked really like the Cups. For less money, consider the Kumhos. For more money, try Pirelli P-Zero slicks or Dunlop equivalents. vty, --Dennis | ||
| John B (John_b)
New member Username: John_b Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2003 |
Thanks for the input guys. I'm going to go with Ferodo DS2500 pads and Castrol SRF fluid for now. I will also put Pirelli P zero Corsa's on the challenge wheels. 235/40-18 & 295/30-18. Gerry I like the floating rotor idea, particularly saving 32 pounds of rotating mass. That is huge, imagine putting a 32 pound plate onto your 1/2 HP drill and spinning it up. That's a lot of inertia to overcome. That gets accelerated and decelerated continuously. I'll probably go with that set up when it's time for new discs. Steven, I dont really understand why challenge wheels would not work well with the softer bushings but will look into it. Rob, I think Barry was one of the guys helping Joe and I out at Road Atlanta in July. A great group all around. I'm bummed because I'm unable to do Road America with them later this month. Maybe the Petit LeMans in October. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5890 Registered: 12-2000 |
Great, RonR from FC just bought a SRX7. He'll just get his license through the SCCA schools in December and January. Tillman and Jayson are looking at a car too. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2527 Registered: 1-2002 |
Rob, per our earlier discussion, I am seriously contemplating getting a SCCA National license... If I do it, I will have all the requirements (except for the physical) done within a month... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 5888 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hey John, good to have someone give feedback that's a professional racer and in a stock car. Do you know Barry Thomas? I race SRX7 with Barry and I know he helped Jimmy and Joe out a couple times with the 675. He told me an awful story about hauling the 675 engine down South and the engine block cracked because they didn't think it was going to freeze. I'm jealous, I would love to race out there with you in ALMS. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 552 Registered: 6-2001 |
I have tracked both my street 360 spider and my 360 Challenge. Not a good idea to use Challenge wheels on a street car due to a different suspension setup between the 2 (street car has soft bushings, CH car has hard ceramic bushings). I see you live in NJ. Call the guys at Classic Coach in Elizabeth, ask for Jimmy. They can give you the best setup for tracking a street car. My street car brakes faded with heat as well, the Challenge brakes are on a totally different level. Not sure if you can upgrade just the pads, may need to go with new rotors too. Definitely a race type brake fluid. Enjoy!!! | ||
| gerry andrews (Blackonblack360)
New member Username: Blackonblack360 Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2003 |
Race Technologies has the best brake option available. Perfect for a street car but very functional durring track use. 2pc. fully floating "Challenge Style" Rotors. Drilled or Slotted / Front & Rear = $3495 Complete Saves about 8lbs. per corner and works with stock calipers. This is the same price as O.E. replacments from the dealer. Then in the future when you need to replace rotors you are only replacing the outer disc for about $329ea. If you track your car you will save a ton of money. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 946 Registered: 4-2002 |
I regularly track my F355 and had all sorts of (pad) fade problems with the stock Ferrari pads. I ended up finding Ferrodo DS2500 pads. These things take 175 dC more heat, have better bite (coefficient of friction) and are pretty easy on rotors for a semi-race pad. These things are streetable down here in Texas (through the winter) and last about 12-15 track days. Don't forget that if you increate the pads you can easily boil the fluid if you don't use a high temp fluid and change it regularly. | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 562 Registered: 4-2002 |
The ferrari challenge cars use Ferodo DS3000 brake pads | ||
| John B (John_b)
New member Username: John_b Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2003 |
I took my 360 F1 to a track day at Pocono Saturday on the double infield configuration using the NASCAR back straight and turn and the NASCAR front straight connected by the two infield road course sections. All I can say is WOW! The car blew me away! I'm fairly jaded when it comes to performance automobiles and am an active racer in both SCCA Nationals and IMSA's American LeMans series so I wasn't expecting to be impressed, but I was really impressed with the car, it really raised my appreciation of the car to a new level. In the three months I have owned my 360 I have pushed it pretty hard on the road a couple times to see what it was made of but you really cant explore a cars true nature unless you are on a track. The car is amazingly responsive and agile. I think it is the mid-engine layout that really contributes here. It turns in very quickly and easily and holds a line neutrally. The rear end is very controllable and sensitive to throttle input. It will step out predictably under either trailing throttle or heavy throttle so you need just the right amount of throttle input through the turns. I thought the F1 transmission was pretty good on the street but I LOVE it on the track! It really allows you to focus on smooth control inputs and lines and just kind of slows the whole driving process down, and as you know slow and smooth is fast! I never really pushed the car too hard through the infield sections for fear of going off but none the less the car was the class of the field, nothing could catch it. I initially thought I would only track it this one time to see what it was made of, but after finding out it will be hard to resist doing it again! I did have a problem with the brakes, they would fade after about 15 minutes of lapping. I just left the street pads in. I thought they might be ok because they sounded kind of metalic and I didn't really have time to change over to some street/track pads anyways. If I were to do it again I definately need better pads and some good fluid. What kind of pads are suited for street/ track use? Maybe I'll just slip in some race pads before a track day, it does look pretty easy. What kind of pads do the 360 Challenge guys use? The second area of improvement would be the tires, the car now has regular Michelin Pilots 235 front, 275 rear. I just picked up a set of Challenge rims and will probably shod them with some soft compound DOT rubber. What is the hot set up here? Michelin Pilot cup? or what else? |