| Author | Message | ||
| Eric Telson (Pitbull_trader)
New member Username: Pitbull_trader Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2003 |
WITH SUCH empty hands after the battle, President Bush is losing the war for his honor. The primary pretext for his unprecedented first-strike war was that Iraq's Saddam Hussein had the most horrifying arsenal of weapons of mass destruction on earth. Last summer, Vice President •••• Cheney and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld said ''there is no doubt'' and ''there's just no question'' that Hussein had the weapons. Bush turned up the rhetoric in September. ''For the sake of your children's future,'' Bush said, ''we must make sure this madman never has the capacity to hurt us with a nuclear weapon, or to use the stockpiles of anthrax that we know he has, or VX, the biological weapons which he possesses.'' In his fateful48 -hour warning to Saddam to leave Iraq, Bush said, ''Intelligence gathered by this and other governments leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal some of the most lethal weapons ever devised.'' With about 180 American soldiers sacrificed and thousands of Iraqi soldiers and citizens killed, the unprecedented war is unraveling into a scandal that dwarfs President Clinton's Thong-gate and threatens to surpass the violation of national trust symbolized by Watergate. Bill and Monica was about lying about sex. Watergate was about President Nixon lying about a break-in. Iraq is about Bush sending Americans to die for what may have been a lie. Despite160 , 000American and British troops and the world's greatest technology, no weapons of mass destruction have been found. The commander of the1 st Marine Expeditionary Force, Lieutenant General James Conway, said whatever intelligence he was given on WMD, ''We were simply wrong.'' Conway said, ''We've been to virtually every ammunition supply point between the Kuwaiti border and Baghdad, but they're simply not there.'' Many current and former intelligence officers are now saying that the White House either ignored intelligence reports that failed to confirm weapons of mass destruction or trumped up skimpy or lame reports. A claim by Bush that Saddam was buying uranium from Africa for nuclear weapons turned out to be a forged document on the letterhead of a minister of foreign affairs in Niger who had been out of office for a decade. Greg Thielmann, a recently retired State Department analyst who could not believe that Bush would use ''that stupid piece of garbage'' to make his case, told Newsweek, ''There is a lot of sorrow and anger at the way intelligence was misused.'' A Central Command planner told Newsweek that the CIA's information on the sites where weapons of mass destruction were stored was ''crap.'' An intelligence official told US News and World Report that ''the policy decisions weren't matching the reports we were reading every day.'' In a 2002 document, the Defense Intelligence Agency concluded, ''There is no reliable information on whether Iraq is producing and stockpiling chemical weapons.'' Time quoted a senior military official who helped plan the war in Iraq but quit after seeing the White House exaggerate bad intelligence. Time also quoted an Army intelligence officer who said Rumsfeld ''was deeply, almost pathologically distorting the intelligence.'' US News and World Report detailed how Cheney's staff fed Secretary of State Colin Powell reams of ''evidence'' that could not be confirmed on the eve of Powell's testimony to the United Nations. David Albright, a former Atomic Energy Agency arms inspector, said the White House ''deliberately selected information that would increase the perception that Iraq was a serious threat'' and ''made a decision to turn a blind eye'' to the evidence that ''the large number of deployed chemical weapons the administration said that Iraq had are not there.'' Patrick Lang, a former CIA analyst on Iraq, has said intelligence was ''exploited and abused and bypassed'' by the White House. Vincent Cannistraro, a former head of CIA counter-terrorism operations, said many intelligence officials ''believe it is a scandal.'' Cannistraro said Bush had a ''moral obligation to use the best information available, not just information that fits your preconceived ideas.'' Ignoring that moral obligation may have needlessly wasted thousands of lives and lowered the United States onto the shelf of rogue states we claim to be saving the world from. Before the war, Bush said Saddam used ''denial and deception'' on weapons of mass destruction. Bush must now tell Americans to what level he deceived us. If Bush cannot shoulder the burden of truth, his disgrace should be one that makes Bill Clinton's lust a footnote in history and Richard Nixon's tapes a petty larceny of democracy. The denial and deception of President Bush ended in debauchery and death. | ||
| LionsFan54 (Lionsfan54)
New member Username: Lionsfan54 Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2003 |
Art, you can believe one of two groups... 1. The US gov't which has a track record of doing the right thing (more times than not) OR 2. The Iraqi gov't, which has, at best, a terrible track record. It's your call... | ||
| Dom Vitarella (Dom)
Member Username: Dom Post Number: 389 Registered: 11-2002 |
John, I agree 100% with your comments. So much in fact, that I am considering not voting anymore. I don't like the idea of the lesser of two evils. Because the lesser of two evils is still evil. Dom | ||
| John Christopher (Johncj8989)
New member Username: Johncj8989 Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2003 |
I just want a Ferrari, and a week in the Italian countryside. I have learned this. All politicians are corrupt in one way or another. Its all about achieving personal power and feeding ego and no candidate truly has our best interest at heart. (and if you have my best interest at heart...get the hell out of my life and get out of my way so I can achieve) Vote with your gut and hope it is for the lessor of the two evils. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2397 Registered: 6-2001 |
Fact: 1. Missiles with range to hit Israel - Iraq had Scuds, pretty sure they hit Israel once already, seems true NOT. They had limited range scuds which were limited to 90 km by UN treaty. They had one missle which we believed would go 90 miles, which they agreed to destroy. 2. Drones capable of traveling to Israel This was never a "reason" to go to war, but only a possibility. The fog of war precludes 100$ accurate information. That is an unfortunate fact. B/S! This was touted again and again as a reason to attack them, because they were not abiding by their agreement with the U.N. 3. Portable laboratories for making biological weapons (later found to be hydrogen gas producing plants) - the very nature of these labs, portable, makes them hard to find. Again, the initial report (key word being initial) was they were weapons labs. The differences between a weapons lab and something as innocuous as a beer brewery are slight. This makes reporting what is found much more difficult. More B/S! We were told that we saw NO other use for these, and when we found them, it was touted that we had indeed discovered these weapons, and the ability to manufacture them. Dave on this chat used the existance, when we found one of these, as justification for the claim that they indeed had such weapons. It wasn't true then, isn't true now, despite whatever spin you put on it. 4. Equipped Iraqi troops with WMDs capable of unleashing tons of this stuff within 45 minutes of being ordered to do so - Iraqi generals, in the past, had direct use of WMDs (see the Kurds). There was no reason to believe they lost this control. It was a valid assumption that has yet to be disproved. The facts you cite are correct, however you forgot the date: 1991, not 2003. Since 1991, Iraq claimed that they destroyed those weapons, their troops were indeed inspected, and no such weaponary was ever found. This is pure lies or errors. Not a single verifiable fact has been found to justify this claim. 5. Materials purchased for extracting uranium, i.e., aluminum cylinders - the precision nature of these cylinders makes them suited for uranium extraction. Of course Iraq claimed they were just shells. YOu're right, but you have one major problem: the diameter and materials are improper. That was cited to our government from the jump by the UN, by some of our allies, and we ignored it. If you have an understanding of physics, you realize that if the diameter is too small (which these were) with current technology, you can't get sufficent extraction. That was the case here, and our government, either through stupdiity or lies, chose to ignore it. 6. That Iraq was attempting to purchase fissile material from Africa (again we were told this was false, but it didn't keep those in power from making the claim). - Who told us this was false? ABC news? Funny how the Brits stand by this 100%. It's hardly a cut and dried matter that this was a false claim. The attempt to purchase fissile material which we reported was faked by an African who wanted US money. The documents provided were proved to be a fake by the UN, which was acknowledged by our government. My understanding is that the fakes were so poor that someone of average intelligence would have seen the flaws. We chose to ignore those flaws. Our government has acknowledged this error, only after they were truly busted in the press. 7. We have been in control of Iraq for some 5 months, and not one, not one item of WMDs has been found. Not one. - We have indeed found precision centrifuges (for nuke weapons production) buried in a scientist's back yard. We can't Osama Bin Laden either, does he also not exist? We didn't fine certrifuges. We found one example. One. Do you know how many it takes to produce enough fissile material to make a bomb? Thousands. That's right thousands. My understanding is that this was kept as an example in the event the sanctions were dropped, and Iraq could then begin production legally. There was no claim, not one, that any such program existed. Another distortion of the facts to prove a discredited point. I could go on and on, but it's clear that your perspective is devoid of reasson and facts coupled with a lack of research. Look at the real world: our government either made a mistake, or delibertly attacked another nation for what appears to be fabricated reasons. We've done this before, but this time, they've apparently been caught red handed. Art | ||
| J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member Username: Jh355 Post Number: 78 Registered: 6-2003 |
Dave DIRECT HIT, YOU�VE SUNK THEIR BATTLESHIP. Unfortunately these guys hold onto ideals and make the facts fit around them, reminds me of the 20th century monster communists, pick one. KEEP SPANKING THE PROPOGANDA. JH | ||
| LionsFan54 (Lionsfan54)
New member Username: Lionsfan54 Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2003 |
I could go on all day debunking this liberal drivel, but I am going to pull the plug on this decidedly non-Ferrari related thread. Thanks for listening.... | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5692 Registered: 5-2001 |
You are all missing the point: Question motives! Some of you are pro gun so you can fight this government if they try to take your rights and liberty. Reality check: they are long gone and you have not fired a single shot because you have been brain washed by our government through media. I have seen it on TV it must be true! Question the Government and your leaders. Question what is being put in front of you. Media is the easiest way to stir herds of people into the direction you want them to go. You are cattle, nothing else unless you think outside of the fence! | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Junior Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 233 Registered: 3-2003 |
If George Bush Sr. had half a brain and had actually "run" the CIA, do you think he would have known enough to coach his son to focus on its weakness and the threat of OBL once Jr. became president? If GWB had half a brain do you think he would have found OBL BEFORE blowing up half of Afghanistan - and losing him? If GWB had half a brain and had learned from what happened in Afghanistan do you think he would have located Saddam Hussein BEFORE launching the invasion of IRAQ? (and not having to resort to "killing" him and his sons as many as four times) If GWB had half a brain and information regarding the threat in IRAQ, would we still be losing one boy or girl each day since he called the offensive "over"? If GWB had half a brain would he have used his own WMD (words of mass deception) to start the offensive in the first place. Maybe I'm all wrong and the Bushes do have half a brain. | ||
| Jonathan T. Linde (Lindej)
New member Username: Lindej Post Number: 17 Registered: 5-2003 |
Everyone - I'm fairly new here but this does seem to be massively off-topic for a Ferrari enthusiast site. I don't like GW at all and will not vote for him. Whatever. I don't go to Ferrari enthusiast sites to engage in political debate - there are many other sites that are dedicated to such topics. We all love Ferraris - why get into divisive issues that can be addressed elsewhere? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2571 Registered: 1-2002 |
Right on, Lions Fan! These turd-garglers on the left are not FOR anything that they want us to know about. All they can do is rail AGAINST Mr. Bush. If they really told us what they are FOR, they would be laughed off the planet as being as out of touch with the direction of modern America as Castro or Stalin would be. As for this statement that you also responded to: "I can't say what life would have been had Clinton been re-elected, but I can say with some certainty that we'd probably be living better, have a lot less angst, and a lot less of the world angry at us." I say bullschit. The stock market began its rapid freefall in March 2000, a full 10 MONTHS before the Clinton-Gore team relinquished office. Had they remained, the market would have dropped just as precititously, the same crazy Muslim extremists would have murdered 3,000 of our citizens, and Kalifornia would still be having its exact same problems. What would be different? Well, (a) the administration would STILL be conducting polls & focus groups to determine how & if to respond to 9/11 without offending anyone, especially the Frogs, and without hurting any radical group's "sovereignty"; and (b) the left would be sputtering just as vociferously trying to blame the economy's downfall on Republicans. SSDD.   | ||
| LionsFan54 (Lionsfan54)
New member Username: Lionsfan54 Post Number: 22 Registered: 3-2003 |
1. Missiles with range to hit Israel - Iraq had Scuds, pretty sure they hit Israel once already, seems true 2. Drones capable of traveling to Israel - This was never a "reason" to go to war, but only a possibility. The fog of war precludes 100$ accurate information. That is an unfortunate fact. 3. Portable laboratories for making biological weapons (later found to be hydrogen gas producing plants) - the very nature of these labs, portable, makes them hard to find. Again, the initial report (key word being initial) was they were weapons labs. The differences between a weapons lab and something as innocuous as a beer brewery are slight. This makes reporting what is found much more difficult. 4. Equipped Iraqi troops with WMDs capable of unleashing tons of this stuff within 45 minutes of being ordered to do so - Iraqi generals, in the past, had direct use of WMDs (see the Kurds). There was no reason to believe they lost this control. It was a valid assumption that has yet to be disproved. 5. Materials purchased for extracting uranium, i.e., aluminum cylinders - the precision nature of these cylinders makes them suited for uranium extraction. Of course Iraq claimed they were just shells. 6. That Iraq was attempting to purchase fissile material from Africa (again we were told this was false, but it didn't keep those in power from making the claim). - Who told us this was false? ABC news? Funny how the Brits stand by this 100%. It's hardly a cut and dried matter that this was a false claim. 7. We have been in control of Iraq for some 5 months, and not one, not one item of WMDs has been found. Not one. - We have indeed found precision centrifuges (for nuke weapons production) buried in a scientist's back yard. We can't Osama Bin Laden either, does he also not exist? 8. Claims that these were buried make no sense: someone with a vastly superior force attacks you, and you don't use your best weapons against them? Give me a break, only an idiot would believe that little fair tale. - Both Japan and Germany had massive stockpiles of chem weapons at the end of WWII. "Give me a break, only an idiot would believe that little fair tale", well they didn't use their WMDs even though they were both being routed by the allies. It's actually pretty realistic that a commander would not use these awful weapons, especially in homeland defense when their own friends and family could be killed by them. "Bottom line: phony war. Reality: the rest of the civilized world, i.e., France, Britain, Spain, Germany, etc. all had populations who understood this was BS and strongly opposed the war." - All those countries also have "populations" that believe Elvis is alive. Actual public opinion (not the small % of people in the street) was either in favor of the war or, at a minimum, strongly opposed to Saddam and his antics. "While I didn't say Bush was dumb, he certainly wasn't anywhere near as smart as Clinton. I can't say what life would have been had Clinton been re-elected, but I can say with some certainty that we'd probably be living better, have a lot less angst, and a lot less of the world angry at us. You get what you pay for however, all of Bush's supporters in the oil industry are doing well, as are Cheney's friends in the construction business. " - Yeah, I'm sure that if Clinton was in office that 9/11 wouldn't have happened. Does that mean that if Bush was in office OK City wouldn't have happened? What kind of logic is that? Unlike Clinton's time in office, Bush has had to make some hard decisions that will have inevitably upset some people. If you honestly think that Bush is driven in his decisions to make his "oil buddies" rich then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. I won't even begin to get into the payoffs Gore's family received from South American oil companies.... | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 385 Registered: 7-2002 |
"Have you read Greenspan's book Maestro? He gives Clinton substantial credit for the economy. Think he may know something you don't?" Must be why many people are calling for the resignation of Greenspan...Funny thing the Federal Reserve...it is neither a Federal agency nor a Reserve of anything...merely, a printing press for money, with an appointed head and a set number of shareholders in the form of banks.. Everyone likes to label Bush an idiot...and Clinton may have been academically smarter...but Clinton has the common sense of a house fly and the persona of a plaid jacketed used car salesman. BDW, tricle down Economics works...Clinton benefited from the seeds of Reagonomics...Bush is suffering the effects of the "go-go" 90's...neither can or should claim credit or be blamed for our current situation. | ||
| DJ (Godfather)
Junior Member Username: Godfather Post Number: 145 Registered: 11-2002 |
Yeah right  , look at all the slack GWB gets just for fighting back. Imagine if he attacked Afgan/Osama unprovoked. | ||
| Mister Jones (Davey_jones)
Junior Member Username: Davey_jones Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2002 |
Has anyone registered ferrari-politics.com ? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5689 Registered: 5-2001 |
As to the Osama issue: If I remember correctly it was Clinton that sent Cruise Missles into a camp of Al Qaida during his presidency. If GWB though he was such a bad guy all along he had 9 months to take him out during his presidency before 9-11. So he must not have seen him as such a risk either. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5688 Registered: 5-2001 |
Russ, my mistake. I thought I was posting this Off Topic and was not off-topic. Sorry about that. Hope Rob moves it where it belongs. Martin | ||
| rich stephens (Dino2400)
Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 506 Registered: 10-2001 |
Since we're already off-topic... George Sr. was certainly a bright guy (he used to run the CIA for pete's sake) so what's up with Jr? Barbara seemed too smart to blame it on her genes. How do these things happen. Reminds me of two twins I grew up with who appeared to be the same until the SAT scores came back and one had scored 1500 and cruised on into Notre Dame (the family is Irish), while the other scored less than 1000 (!) and had to go to prep school another year to get into anapolis. (he's now been a seal for a decade and in a cruel twist of fate for humanity will probably be president someday himself, ha!). | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2002 |
No he really is an idiot...and he plays one each time he is on tv. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 823 Registered: 3-2003 |
Russ, we are waiting for a mod to move this thread out of this section. | ||
| Russ F (Russf)
Junior Member Username: Russf Post Number: 163 Registered: 3-2002 |
Why don't we rename this the anything goes forum. I am getting increasingly disatsified with the amount of off topic nonsence and stuff that is personal to a limited group of members. It aseems that a good portion of the bandwidth has been highjacked by a few people who seem to think that whatever they have to say about anything should be of interest to the forum as a whole. This thread has no business being in anything but off topic. | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 821 Registered: 3-2003 |
About Clinton's impeachment: what did it arise out of? And how is it our business? Did we elect him to be a bible-thumping prude, or someone to guide and manage domestic and international affairs? As for Osama bin Ladin, since the attack on the USS Cole in Yemen, Clinton had a seal team and significant military assets stationed off Pakistan, ready to take out OBL if the opportunity ever arose. Sadly, it never did. He did try, though, but OBL had left the camp a few hours earlier. | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Intermediate Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 2306 Registered: 7-2001 |
Do you guys truly believe that just because he's out of the white house he's not working? "Mr President, there has been a bombing at a Marriott in Indonesia"! "Not now, I'm on vacation". Give me a break. There hasn't been a president in ages that doesn't have to have daily briefings, even if 'on vacation'. | ||
| Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
Junior Member Username: Fuiszt Post Number: 118 Registered: 10-2002 |
When GW said "..and to all you C students out there, you too can be president" at a graduation speech, he sank to the bottom for me. I'm afraid he's too dumb to have actually lied about the WMD. He's too busy watching "not another teen movie" on air force one to actually read the documents he should be reading. How many of you guys take a 3 day weekend every weekend and a month of vacation? He's the worst president we've had in a long time. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 266 Registered: 4-2001 |
Art. You may or not be right about Clinton and the legal arguement about perjury but I sure expect a hell of a lot more from a president than playing word games like some street wise punk. Clinton had no shame because to have shame you need a sense of honor. The dems would have been a lot better off if they did agree to convict after impeachment. They could have taken the high road rather than sink into the gutter with Clinton and Gore would have been president then and probably now. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2387 Registered: 6-2001 |
I keep forgetting the rankings: idiot, moron, imbecile. Which is the smartest of the three, and which the dumbess? Martin: My mother used to call that sh*t disturbing, but at least you did it well. Art | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 957 Registered: 4-2002 |
"Its great what one can stir up by saying Bush is an idiot " But at least he is an IDIOT! | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5686 Registered: 5-2001 |
 | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5684 Registered: 5-2001 |
 Its great what one can stir up by saying Bush is an idiot | ||
| LWR (Lwr)
New member Username: Lwr Post Number: 50 Registered: 12-2001 |
Who is GWB and who is "our president"? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2385 Registered: 6-2001 |
The issue of WMDs is this: 1.Each and every percise statement made by Bush, Powell and Rice has proven false. Examples are: 1. Missiles with range to hit Israel, 2. Drones capable of traveling to Israel, 3. Portable labrotories for making biological weapons (later found to be hydrogen gas producig plants), 4. Equipped Iraqi troops with WMDs capable of unleasing tons of this stuff within 45 minutes of being ordered to do so, 5. Materials purchased for extracting uranium, i.e., alumium cylinders (later proved to be castings for artillery, we were told before this claim was made that the materials didn't match, and that they were the wrong size, didn't keep those in power from making the claim however). 6. That Iraq was attempting to purchase fissile material from Africa (again we were told this was false, but it didn't keep those in power from making the claim). 7. We have been in control of Iraq for some 5 months, and not one, not one item of WMDs has been found. Not one. 8. Claims that these were buried make no sense: someone with a vastly superior force attacks you, and you don't use your best weapons against them? Give me a break, only an idiot would believe that little fair tale. As to the claim of supporting Al Qaeda: that only indicates the utter lack of knowledge of those making the claim: Iraqi was not a supporter of Al Qaeda, in fact, the only Al Qaeda people in Iraq were in an area where our allies, the Kurds, controlled the terrority. Not a single piece of evidence has been shown to show any, and I mean any connection between Iraq and Al Qaeda. Claims to the contrary are either by those without facts, or liars. Bottom line: phony war. Reality: the rest of the civilized world, i.e., France, Britian, Spain, Germany, etc. all had populations who understood this was BS and strongly opposed the war. That little item is probably the biggest downside to us: they are now afraid of us, and our behavior. Even if their governments did assist us in the war, the populations of those countries didn't like it, and understood exactly what we were doing. While I didn't say Bush was dumb, he certainly wasn't anywhere near as smart as Clinton. I can't say what life would have been had Clinton been re-elected, but I can say with some certainty that we'd probably be living better, have a lot less angst, and a lot less of the world angry at us. You get what you pay for however, all of Bush's supporters in the oil industry are doing well, as are Cheney's friends in the construction business. Art | ||
| DJ (Godfather)
Junior Member Username: Godfather Post Number: 143 Registered: 11-2002 |
If they can bury this you don't think they can bury WMD's?  | ||
| LionsFan54 (Lionsfan54)
New member Username: Lionsfan54 Post Number: 21 Registered: 3-2003 |
"prosecuting a war under false premises" Sorry Arthur, there is nothing false about Saddam having WMDs and being, at best a sympathizer, and at worst a supporter of al Qaeda. | ||
| J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member Username: Jh355 Post Number: 74 Registered: 6-2003 |
Arthur Just for a minute forget there is a two term limit on the Presidency. If Klinton had been reelected, do you think he would fare better on any of the key issues we fact today? Would the US be any safer and economically stable? JH | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2381 Registered: 6-2001 |
Jim: Have you read Greenspan's book Maestro? He gives Clinton substantial credit for the economy. Think he may know something you don't? From my perspective, it appears that this economy is getting worse, not better, and we have the current administration to thank for that: tax cut which puts our budget out of wack, and will probably cause a steep decline in real estate values (My stuff is paid for, the people that are going to get hurt are those with financing, since any reduction in value comes right out of their pocket, not their lending institution), prosecuting a war under false premises, which is probably going to cost us another 4 billion per month, and not doing anything about the job transfers which are depleting our work force of jobs (yeah, I know that Clinton and the repubs in the congress passed most of the enacting legislation that caused this). Bottom line: Bush isn't articulate, but he isn't stupid, just misguided. It's too bad that we've gotten such people in office. Dave: the terms are high crimes and misdeamonors. Unfortunately for most people, those are terms of art in the legal profession. They have been defined as acts against the National interest, i.e., treason, theft, etc. It was a major stretch to lmake a mistatement (which may or may not have been perjury) into an impeachable offense, and that's one of the reasons there was no conviction. It was clear that while Clinton may have mislead people, there was substantial questions about whether or not this was perjury. Perjury is defined as: "Perjury, at common law, is the taking of a willful false oath by one who, being lawfully sworn,\ by a competent court to depose the truth in any judical proceeding, swears absolutely and falsely in a matter material to the point in issue, whether he believed or not" Comm v. Powell, 2 Metc (ky) 10. As you can see, by a strict definition of perjury, Clinton didn't commit perjury. Didn't keep the partisans from raising that issue, but it sure kept them from getting a conviction. That's why I equated it to a speeding ticket. Might have been a bigger deal if there was a conviction, but without that, its the same as a speeding ticket: another accusation that the court denied. Any attempt to make it any more than that is puffery for an ulterior motive. By the way, didn't Clinton present Bush with a terrorist plan similar to what Bush enacted after 9/11, and didn't Bush sit on it for some 5, 6 months until 9/11 happened, I seem to recall somoething to that effect. Bottom line, if the FBI had their sh*t together, we wouldn't have had 9/11, and only the idiots in charge of the FBI are responsible for that. And their still doing it some 3 years after Bush got into office: there are 11, that's right 11 seperate list of suspicious people that local authorities have to check instead one just one. What kind of idiot tolerates that? GW is the boss, you tell me. Bottom line: country in trouble, no great leader to get us out of this. | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 640 Registered: 11-2001 |
Quote: "It is funny, nobody liked Jimmy Carter in office, but he is well respected out of office, he does a lot of good things most ex-presidents would not consider" It would have been better if Jimmy Carter did a lot of good things while he WAS in office as a president, which was the office for which the majority of us elected him to be good. He may have redeemed himself somewhat with the humanitarian works he has been doing after the presidency. But, the ex-presidency work of Jimmy Carter benefited very few people. A good man, though. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2564 Registered: 1-2002 |
Chris, we do agree on 2 things: 1) I, too, wish Dole had been himself, and had won; I believe he would have made a SUPERB, honorable president 2) Bush DOES need to tone down the rhetoric a bit; the "bring it on" and "we're on the hunt" stuff is a bit over the top...and not very statesman-like. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 699 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jim, no, my wife beats me, mostly on the race track! | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 698 Registered: 3-2002 |
Reagan was great with international politics I agree! He was a cowboy, but he knew how to use that. GW just does not understand how to speak softly and carry a big stick.... Hey it is a different world today, I would hate that job, damned if you do, damned if you don't... | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Intermediate Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 2300 Registered: 7-2001 |
Chris, do you still beat your wife? | ||
| LionsFan54 (Lionsfan54)
New member Username: Lionsfan54 Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2003 |
Well said Chris I agree with almost all of that. I only disagree on the cowboy comment. Reagan was considered a "cowboy" too, and all he did was win the Cold War and restore the US to the world's superpower. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 697 Registered: 3-2002 |
Dave, I don't "blame" GW for anything, it is just that his style of leadership has repercussions. This is true of every President, I think GW is a cowboy, thats ok in Texas, but I am not sure it plays that well around the world. It is not a case of who is the better president, no one will win that argument, I just think he is not as good as we deserved. I wish Bob Dole would have won, I think he would have won had his handlers just let him be himself. While I may not agree with everything Bob Dole believes, I really respect him. That kind of man is hard to find in politics. I think we will all agree that this nation may never get the best man for the job simply because it is a lose - lose kind of job. It is funny, nobody liked Jimmy Carter in office, but he is well respected out of office, he does a lot of good things most ex-presidents would not consider. These political conversations are kinda like asking someone if they still beat their wife....... no answer is the right one! | ||
| Bart Duesler (The_bart)
Member Username: The_bart Post Number: 281 Registered: 1-2003 |
Gee, does our President have a Ferrari. No, he is driven in a limo. Maybe we could modify the limo or make a Ferrari limo. That I would like to see. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2563 Registered: 1-2002 |
Faisal, Clinton committed perjury, which is a FELONY. Despite your "moral relativism" that is very partisan in nature, that is a FACT. It is also an impeachable offense--read our Constitution again, please.. Sorry, that's what happened. Yes, partisanship played a part, sadly, but nevertheless, Clinton committed the crime. Am I wrong? Martin, actually, mine are just as accurate as yours, mate. Chris, I am really surprised that a person of your obvious intelligence could come to such silly "conclusions". I am a Libertarian....but you blaming Bush for ANY of that is just goofy! | ||
| J Haller (Jh355)
Junior Member Username: Jh355 Post Number: 72 Registered: 6-2003 |
If you had to pick a point in history where the dot com revolution started coming to a halt and the market started it�s decline, you would have to choose when the White house under Clinton�s rule slapped a federal case on Microsoft. Microsoft in the corporate world is an ecosystem which supports thousands of other companies and industries worldwide. If you don�t understand the ecosystem and how it survives, don�t mess with it. What�s amazing is the fed�s don�t understand that slapping a federal antitrust suite against a company only diverts the company�s ability to advance technologically, and any of the smaller fish which coexist with it. History is littered with Government anti trust lawsuits gone wrong, Carnage steel, Bell telephone, Edison electric, it seems when a company gets too large, the government has to meddle, we end up with several smaller companies, service and product quality go to He!!, and technological advancement grind to a halt. If memory serves me correctly didn�t fiber optic cables exist in the 40�s or 50�s? Why did it take 40 years to finally make it into our system? JH | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Intermediate Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 2299 Registered: 7-2001 |
I haven't gone quite that far Chris. I won't acknowledge he did a pretty good job, but I will acknowledge that things were pretty good economically under his watch. | ||
| LionsFan54 (Lionsfan54)
New member Username: Lionsfan54 Post Number: 19 Registered: 3-2003 |
Chris, the "cleanup" of Reaganomics was the boom economy of the 90's. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 696 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jim, if "daddy" had finished Iraq when he had the chance, we would still have 2 large buildings in NY. I love it, Bill can never get the credit for anything, but always get the blame..... I don't like him either, but I am not so "republican" that I can't acknowledge he did a pretty good job... | ||
| DJ (Godfather)
Junior Member Username: Godfather Post Number: 139 Registered: 11-2002 |
Very true Jim. Also the liberal press doesn't tell you that the economy began going down with 8 months remaining on Clinton's term. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5683 Registered: 5-2001 |
Jim, and the reason (as stupid as it is) that Osama became a total wacko and went against the Americans is that George sen. has disrespected holly land in Saudi Arabia and stationed troopes there. So all said Jn has to deal with a problem that Sen has created and agreed Bill never properly took care of. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 695 Registered: 3-2002 |
MY "ex" business partner always said that Clinton benefited from the previous reublicans and that he had nothing to do with the excellent economy. Now that everything has gone to ••••, the fact that republicans control all 3 branch's has nothing to do with the economy. Bill never got the credit, but now they are trying to hand him the bill! I hate politics, who cares about republicans or democrats, who can tell them apart? Bill was certainly more republican than GW is, at least when it comes to being a fiscally responsable. It took 12 years to clean up "Reganonomics" and here we go again.... | ||
| DJ (Godfather)
Junior Member Username: Godfather Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well my income has been going up every year since GWB took office. Do you really believe I give that credit to the President? Weren't Bill and Hillary given 12 million dollars between the two of them to write their memoirs? It�s pretty ironic because those are two people who didn't remember anything under oath. And for those of you who feel GWB is truly an idiot, you need to sit down and watch cspan for a couple days. You'll be shocked by the ridiculous fools we have representing us in the House and Senate. | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Intermediate Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 2296 Registered: 7-2001 |
To imply that Clinton was somehow responsible for the economy in the 90's amazes me. He had no economic policy, nor did he need one. The dot com industry's effect on the market and the economy as a whole negated the need for any type of policy decisions on Clintons part. Mickey Mouse could've been in the white house and seen the same results. Clintons policy on the economy, as with most other areas, was 'even keel, hands off'. Witness the rise of Osama bin Laden. Clinton knew about him and chose to ignore him. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2380 Registered: 6-2001 |
Read Laura Tyson's article in Business Week about Bush's economic policies. She's now the President of the London School of Economics. She thinks that he indeed is responsible for our current economic crisis. Silly me, I thought that spending 4 B per month, without planning for same, giving a large tax cut, and then ending up with a large deficit was something the tax and spend democrats would have done to screw up our economy. All Clinton did was to raise taxes, lower interest rates, and follow Greenspan's advice and we eneded up with a great economy. Maybe that's why the Repubs impeached him, he did too good a job. Art | ||
| LionsFan54 (Lionsfan54)
New member Username: Lionsfan54 Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2003 |
Not sure how you can directly blame GW for your income going down. One of the most overrated things is a President being responsible for a good/bad economy. The boom under Clinton can't really be attributed all to him just as the slow down under Bush (which would have occured no matter who the pres elected was) can't be all blamed on him. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5673 Registered: 5-2001 |
Chris, you are the first person here that makes sense and calls it what it is! Thanks Martin (more a Republican than a Democrat, but a true aristocrat at heart ) | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5672 Registered: 5-2�� �� �� �� �� �� �� �� �;9� � !--/field--> Registered: 3-2003 |
Dave, impeachment of a Democrat preside by a Republican congress bent on a witch-hunt...hmmm, no partisanship obviously. Did we vote him in office to peer into his personal life or to have him serve the public, which was stymied at every turn? What was it that Newt did again, because he could not get a ride on Air Force One? | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2562 Registered: 1-2002 |
Art, I would say that impeachment, is a lot worse than a parking ticket. The dishonor alone is much worse than almost anything else in public service except getting caught with a live boy or a dead girl (Ted Kennedy). To you & Martin: keep flailing. The more vehement your rhetoric, the more blatant your lies, the more definitive your fact-free conclusions, the more mean-spirited and vindictive your blather means that you are getting more & more nervous about how badly Mr. Bush is gonna whup whichever of the Seven Dwarves will likely be the 2004 Dem. nominee. | ||
| Lou B (Toby91)
Member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 265 Registered: 4-2001 |
Guys, no matter what you think of GWB you have to vote FOR someone, don't you? Which one of the dems will you vote for? | ||
| Faisal Khan (Tvrfreak)
Member Username: Tvrfreak Post Number: 810 Registered: 3-2003 |
Art, Martin, there's an excellent article in the current Newsweek on the reality of the situation in Iraq and the troops' changing attitudes. Rgds, Faisal. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Intermediate Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 2377 Registered: 6-2001 |
Dave: Impeachment is being accused. Remember he wasn't convicted. It's like getting a parking ticket: the judge has to convict you. Clinton didn't get convicted. That speaks poorly of the idiots in the congress who started the procedure, alienated a substantial portion of the government and population, and didn't get the job done. Martin: He's also killed tens of thousands of people, either by mistake, or by lying to us about non-existant WMDs. The balance of the accusations are just frosting on the cake, but the mass murder, which is still continuing, and he's going to cut the hazard pay for those poor kids he used to fight the war. A major mistake for the US to have allowed Bush into office, but stupid as the population of the US is, I think that they'll have a much better picture of what been done by November 04. Art | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 2561 Registered: 1-2002 |
Martin, first of all, this is Off Topic. Second of all, your hypocritically selective memory ignores the FACT that you could literally replace Bill Clinton's name for Bush on this mean-spirited list & it would still be accurate. I have courteously excerped out your BLATANT LIES. To wit: I attacked two countries (Serbia & Sudan). I created a PHONY U.S. surplus based on erroneous projections of tax revenues that assumed the dot-com gold rush would continue forever. I was IMPEACHED (not easy!). I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period. I set all-time record for the beginning and first 10 months biggest drop in the history of the stock market. I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner (only true of Bush...but Clinton signed the legistaltion allowing it, and BOO-YAH to Bush for making it happen!!!). In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on stupid schit like gays in the military by any president in US history. After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the biggest RETROACTIVE tax hike in US history. I set the record for most campaign fund raising "coffees" that coddled Communist Chinese despots by any president in US history. In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job. I cut welfare benefits for more Americans than any other president in US history. I set the all-time record for most Arkansas scam real estate deal investigations in a 12-month period. I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history. I set the record for the most lies told during press conferences of any president, since the advent of TV. I presided over the beginning of the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed. I allowed our top nuclear secrets to be sold to the Chinese for campaign contributions. I ignored more subpoenas than any president in US history. I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history. Members of my cabinet are the richest, and account for more millionaires, of any administration in US history. I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy. I presided over the beginnings of the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world, while my "regulators" looked the other way. I am the first president in US history to order a US attack of 2 sovereign nations, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the international community in the case of Serbia, and I did so on the VERY DAY I WAS BEING IMPEACHED in the case of Sudan. I have created the largest growth of government bureaucracy in the history of the United States. I set the all-time record for biggest annual RETROACTIVE tax increases, more than any other president in US history. I am the first president in US history to compel the US to attack a sovereign nation for no reason other than to distract everyone from my impeachment that very day. I am the first president in US history to have the gall to invite the United Nations to monitor our elections. I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight during my first term than any presidential administration in US history. I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most campaign donations from the military of a communist country that somehow ended up with many of our top nuclear secrets. The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Bernard something-or-other, CEO of LORAL Corp.). I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history. I am the first president to attack a foreign country solely because I was being impeached that very day. I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government run by my wife. I am the first US president in history to think it necessary for the US to kiss Europe's arse. I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees who violated US law by not disclosing their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts. I left office with the fastst-dropping economy in US history and left us vulnerable to the worst terrorist attack we have ever suffered due to my inaction & cowardice. RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one impeachment (Arkansas driving record has been erased and is not available). I was a draft dodger, having fled to England. I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. All records of my tenure as governor of Arkansas have been spirited away to my library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All records of any SEC investigations into my wife's insider trading are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which my wife served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. How's that hypocrisy taste, Martin? | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1573 Registered: 11-2001 |
OFF F'ING TOPIC. c'mon, guys. doody. | ||
| Mark Moon (Enzomoon)
Junior Member Username: Enzomoon Post Number: 230 Registered: 4-2002 |
Please take this political rhetoric to OFF TOPIC!!!! | ||
| LionsFan54 (Lionsfan54)
New member Username: Lionsfan54 Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2003 |
Hahaha, after I got up off the floor from laughing at the absurdity of this post I decided to rebutt all of these "facts" would be a waste of time. Someone please put this in the factual distortion hall of fame. | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 626 Registered: 1-2003 |
It was too early in the moring and Martiin didn't realize he was posting this in the wrong area. Right Martin? | ||
| Michael Zaic (Mikez_nj)
Junior Member Username: Mikez_nj Post Number: 64 Registered: 12-2002 |
lol... I saw that posted somewhere a couple weeks ago, but couldn't find the link when I was looking for it the other day - thanks! (Here come the Off Topic police.) | ||
| Andrew-Phillip Goalen (Andrewg)
Member Username: Andrewg Post Number: 301 Registered: 9-2002 |
Martin you forgot that GWB is also an alcoholic!!!, and not an entirley recovering one at that, nice to know that I'm in the mahority of Europeans who belive that Bush and his house b*tch Blair are hugely dangerous and shouldnt be let out to play with the other boys and girls without adult supervision | ||
| Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member Username: Paulie_b Post Number: 623 Registered: 1-2003 |
Martin, did you stay up all night thinking about this? Its too early to have these thought. Go back to bed! Regards to Marion. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Senior Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 5669 Registered: 5-2001 |
The President's Accomplishments I attacked and took over two countries. I spent the U.S. surplus and bankrupted the US Treasury. I shattered the record for the biggest annual deficit in history (not easy!). I set an economic record for the most personal bankruptcies filed in any 12 month period. I set all-time record for the biggest drop in the history of the stock market. I am the first president in decades to execute a federal prisoner. In my first year in office I set the all-time record for most days on vacation by any president in US history (tough to beat my dad's, but I did). After taking the entire month of August off for vacation, I presided over the worst security failure in US history. I set the record for most campaign fund raising trips by any president in US history. In my first two years in office over 2 million Americans lost their job. I cut unemployment benefits for more out-of-work Americans than any other president in US history. I set the all-time record for most real estate foreclosures in a 12-month period. I appointed more convicted criminals to administration positions than any president in US history. I set the record for the fewest press conferences of any president, since the advent of TV. I signed more laws and executive orders amending the Constitution than any o ther US president in history. I presided over the biggest energy crises in US history and refused to intervene when corruption was revealed. I cut health care benefits for war veterans. I set the all-time record for most people worldwide to simultaneously take to the streets to protest me (15 million people), shattering the record for protest against any person in the history of mankind. I dissolved more international treaties than any president in US history. I've made my presidency the most secretive and unaccountable of any in US history. Members of my cabinet are the richest of any administration in US history. (The poorest multimillionaire, Condoleeza Rice, has a Chevron oil tanker named after her.) I am the first president in US history to have all 50 states of the Union simultaneously struggle against bankruptcy. I presided over the biggest corporate stock market fraud in any market in any country in the history of the world. I am the first president in US history to order a US attack AND military occupation of a sovereign nation, and I did so against the will of the United Nations and the vast majority of the international community. I have created the largest government department bureaucracy in the history of the United States, called the "Bureau of Homeland Security"(only one letter away from BS). I set the all-time record for biggest annual budget spending increases, more than any other president in US history (Ronnie was tough to beat, but I did it!!). I am the first president in US history to compel the United Nations remove the US from the Human Rights Commission. I am the first president in US history to have the United Nations remove the US from the Elections Monitoring Board. I removed more checks and balances, and have the least amount of congressional oversight than any presidential administration in US history. I rendered the entire United Nations irrelevant. I withdrew from the World Court of Law. I refused to allow inspectors access to US prisoners of war and by default no longer abide by the Geneva Conventions. I am the first president in US history to refuse United Nations election inspectors access during the 2002 US elections. I am the all-time US (and world) record holder for most corporate campaign donations. The biggest lifetime contributor to my campaign, who is also one of my best friends, presided over one of the largest corporate bankruptcy frauds in world history (Kenneth Lay, former CEO of Enron Corporation). I spent more money on polls and focus groups than any president in US history. I am the first president to run and hide when the US came under attack (and then lied, saying the enemy had the code to Air Force 1) I am the first US president to establish a secret shadow government. I took the world's sympathy for the US after 9/11, and in less than a year made the US the most resented country in the world (possibly the biggest diplomatic failure in US and world history). I am the first US president in history to have a majority of the people of Europe (71%) view my presidency as the biggest threat to world peace and stability. I changed US policy to allow convicted criminals to be awarded government contracts. I set the all-time record for the number of administration appointees who violated US law by not selling their huge investments in corporations bidding for gov't contracts. I have removed more freedoms and civil liberties for Americans than any other president in US history. I entered office with the strongest economy in US history and in less than two years turned every single economic category heading straight down. RECORDS AND REFERENCES: I have at least one conviction for drunk driving in Maine (Texas driving record has been erased and is not available). I was AWOL from the National Guard and deserted the military during time of war. I refuse to take a drug test or even answer any questions about drug use. All records of my tenure as governor of Texas have been spirited away to my fathers library, sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All records of any SEC investigations into my insider trading or bankrupt companies are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. All minutes of meetings of any public corporation for which I served on the board are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public view. Any records or minutes from meetings I (or my VP) attended regarding public energy policy are sealed in secrecy and unavailable for public review. GEORGE W. BUSH The White House, Washington, DC |