| Author |
Message |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 10:14 am: | |
Jon,
Thanks for setting the record straight. Couldn't have said it better myself. I will drop you a line from Down Under. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
| | Posted on Saturday, November 24, 2001 - 3:10 am: | |
My goodness, what's with all the arguements over this Ferrari is better than that or a non Ferrari is better. Be real, we here cause we have Ferrari's and have one for a reason. Weather it's a first one or the 20th one we don't have one cause it's the fastest but cause it's been a part of the wish list, it's the appeal, the sound etc.. which ever one that fits you well for whatever it is, make it better, in my opinion there will never be a perfect car for anyone, there are pluses and minuses in every car made to this very date. I work on cars everyday and see what they are all about, if cars were made perfect , the manufacturers would not be selling as many future cars. You heard the truth here... Peace and keep it real.... |
martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
| | Posted on Thursday, October 25, 2001 - 12:55 pm: | |
Christian,
The M3 suspension is a little stiffer than previous M3's (had a '96 and'97)but that is a reasonable compromise for improved cornering.Had the E46 on a 300 mi run and it is comfortable and I didn't feel beatup. Maybe I was having so much fun on the backroads here in Oregon that I just didn't notice!Since I didn't notice I think for me that says it all. |
Christian Kienle (Christiank)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:48 pm: | |
I have read in several magazines that the new M3 suspension is made for track use but is a pain the ... when you drive it on the road. Any comments or experiences?
Thanks,
Christian |
William H (Countachxx)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 9:11 pm: | |
Doesnt the fact that u had to put a reference into your title to Not discus the cars looks tell u something about the 360.
Its fast & its a great car, technically, but she's a bit homely |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 8:27 pm: | |
Another thing to remember is that the 355 is a heavily refined 348, whereas the 360 is a whole new car (aluminum everything, etc), not an evolution of something else. Depends on what you like. |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 3:58 pm: | |
Having extensively driven both the 355 and the 360, I can attest to the widely held belief that the 360 is better than the 355 is every quantitative measure that can be applied. The styling is very subjective, and to each his own. I happen to like both cars' design.
But regarding everything else, the difference is like night and day. Every time is drive a 355 I can't believe how far Ferrari has come.
But, anyone who buys a Ferrari based solely on "how it looks" should not be driving one. Enzo would be spinning in his grave.
And while I realize that Ferraris aren't the fastest things one the road, their all around performance is awesome. I regularly beat STOCK Porsche TT's and Vipers on impromptu drag races. And yes, I race my Ferrari all the time. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 3:20 pm: | |
Hi Frank,
I realize we might be getting a bit off track here (360 street vs 355 street) but here it goes.
I recognize you from the E39 M5 board I think?
You are a bit off on the PCA vs. 360 Challenge lap times. Lucio Nicolodi ran a 1:31.300 in practice and a 1:30.036 in qualifying (http://www.ferrarina.com/Eventi/index.asp)in this years race. The fastest Porsche time and also the only FASTER time than the Challenge time was 1:28.5 run by Kevin Buckler in a brand new 996 GT3RS. The rest of them (PCA'ers) all ran 1:32's and above and this is in the fastest GT2R and GT3R groups.
Mr. Buckler is hardly a amateur racer, in fact he has been paid to drive in several professional series including Grand Am and ALMS.
The Watkins Glen pole time this year for the 360 C was about 2:04. That is still 4 seconds faster than the pole in T1 SCCA for the Viper (2:09) and the T1 Z06 Corvette (2:10) granted these cars are allowed less modifications. The Vipers that run faster than 360 Challenge cars are heavily modified cars running close to or above 600 HP.
As for you reference to the Challenge drivers being semi-professional I am not sure what you mean by "semi-professional" as none of them are hired guns who are paid to drive. Also, the level of racing skill in the upper classes of PCA are way above those of most Challenge racers. With the exception of the front of the Challenge field (maybe the top 5 or so) I can guarantee you that the top runners in PCA are better and faster racers. Many PCA guys have professional talent.
Just my opinion but from what I have seen about half of this years GT2R and GT3R grid at Summit Point and the Glen could easily drive in Grand Am, ALMS, or Speedvision series. I don't think that can be said of the CHallenge guys.
I own a Challenge car, though I don't currently race it. I do about 20 track events per year in additon to some open wheel racing and I can tell you that a great deal of Challenge drivers are below average racers. I don't claim to be as fast as the guys at the front of the grid but I can keep up to and in some cases pass a lot of Challenge racers at track events in both 355's and 360's. The front runners are clearly way over my head but the middle of the pack and the rear of the grid is especially loaded with talent.
Just look at lap times and you will see that after the first couple of 360 C's, the lap times drop off dramatically.
Get back to the 360 vs. 355 it's a matter of taste and budget as neither car is significantly faster on the street.
An in reference to your M5 passing F355's and 360's you are just a much better driver. On the track a 355 or a 360 driven against equal talent in a E39 M5 is no contest. The M5 would be left for dead unless we are talking the 14 mile Nurburgring with it's long straights and even there the official time for both the 360 and 355 is quicker by over 10 seconds.
Fastest lap time at Summit in a 355 C is sub 1:20 driven by Skip Barber instructor who races Toyota Atlantic, for a 360 C it's close to 1:17. Tim Richardson, a Formula Continental Champion and race instructor has lapped the E39 in 1:28 and stated if it were his car he might have been able to shave a second or two off that time.
Not trying ot offend any Challenge racers on this board or for that matter M5 owners (I own one too) but the numbers don't lie.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
1988 Dinan M5 |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 3:02 pm: | |
I thought you were talking about Le Mans and Petite Le Mans.
Could it be that the Challenge car track time were not competitive because of their state of tune? The 360 that won the FIA GT title was not a Challenge car.
There's strict limits on how much Ferrari will allow the Challenge teams to tinker with the components. Challenge cars are also restricted to stock engines with very little modifications (they only produce slightly more than 400HP in race form). You have to remember that the Challenge series were meant for only one marque only. They are not concerned with how fast the Porsches go at the same track. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 2:38 pm: | |
Let's talk apples and apples here...
A Porsche GT2 will probably beat a 360 Challenge.
A 996 turbo will probably beat a 360.
A Porsche race car running all year in the same series will beat a Ferrari race car running in it's first race of the series.
Ferrari showed how well it can do apples to apples in the FIA Sports Car Chapionship with the 550 and 360. Next year with more factory support will only let our apples shine brighter.
Hey, even when we get beat, we still have more soul. ;) Just joking. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 2:30 pm: | |
Willis, that may be true. But, the fact is that the Porsche Club lap times at Road Atlanta are faster than the 360 Challenge cars at the same track. And that is with a bunch of doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs driving their own daily driver, street legal Porsches verses trailer delivered, dealer maintained Ferrari 360 race cars being driven by semi-pro drivers. If you don't believe me , call The Panoz School at Road Atlanta ,770.967.1220 and ask. Or better yet, go to your own local track and see for your self. |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 2:02 pm: | |
Actually, the 360 just won the FIA GT Championship in the N-GT class. It took a bit of luck but only thing that mattered was that a Ferrari won.
Fielding non-factory supported race cars takes more work to get things right. Look at the 333SP. The bottom fell out of that once competitive program after the factory left the race teams out in the cold. The Audis, Corvettes, Vipers, and BMWs have massive bucks and corporate muscle behind them. That is why they have the best drivers and they win. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 1:44 pm: | |
I love Ferraris. Don't misunderstand my comments. I wouldn't trade my 348 Spider for ten Vipers. They are wonderful cars for a multitude of reasons other than how fast they are. Thank goodness for that. But, the record speaks for itself. Other than F1, Ferraris get beat like a red headed step child in all other forms of racing. Look what happened to the 550 and 360 at the recent Petit LeMans. Even before they broke down they were both getting beat in their own respective classes by a large margin. Even non-turbo Porsche 993s and 996s were lapping them. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 1:26 pm: | |
I thought of a good example. BMW recently modified an X5 by putting their recent Le Mans winning V12 engine in it (and suspension, etc). They took it out on Nurburgring and the thing did 194mph in the straight and would blow the doors off of an F50 (it killed the Porsche GT1). Would you rather have the V12 X5 or an F50? |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 1:23 pm: | |
It is true that Ferraris aren't always the fastest, but for the most part you don't ever race anyone anyways. When was the last time you guys were honestly in a drag race? Not a stop light, but when someone flagged the start and all. Drag races are for Cobras, Vipers, and Vettes. I've been in a lot of cars and have yet to find a car as well balanced as a Ferrari. It's just so well set up, especially for going fast. How many cars out their can comfortably track up to 170, 180, 190 mph like many Ferraris can? Ferraris never have been and never will be the quickest cars (they're still damn close) but I would challenge you to find a better braking and balanced car. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 1:04 pm: | |
Martin, that's just stats from the manufacturer or some magazine. Go to your local race track and see for your self what the cars do in real life situations. I also have a BMW M5 and at Road Atlanta I have passed many 355s and 360s. My old 1998 Viper was also much faster on the track that any 355 or 360 on the track at the same time. And the Porsche TT is even faster still. And as I posted earlier, the lap times of the Porsche club, BMW club, and Viper club are several seconds faster than the 360 Challenge series cars at the Road Atlanta as well as other tracks around the U.S... And that's a bunch of amateurs against the semi-pros in the Challenge series. As much as I love Ferraris, and I do, I have owned five with all the cost involved in ownership, I still admit that they are not the fastest cars out there. And that does not even take in to account other cars that are available in other countries like the Nissan Skylane which will blow the doors off an F40 for less than $50K. Love your Ferrari, that's OK. But like a wife, just because you love her doesn't mean she's the most beautiful woman in the world. |
martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 12:49 pm: | |
Frank,
Where do you get your data that a M3 or C5 corvette would outperform a 360 modena?
The e 46 m3 is 0-60 in 4.7 or 4.8 with st q at 13.1 0r 13.2.The 360 with 6 spd (of course depending on who is testing) is about 4.3-4.5/12.6-12.9 and with fi as fast as 3.9.The standard C5 is not as fast as the 360 however Zo6 (both this yr and the 405 hp 02) and the viper are faster than the 360.
I of course agree with you one doesn't buy a Ferrari as a dragster. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 12:19 pm: | |
I agree that the 360 is a better performer. But, IMHO the 355 looks much better. And, after all, isn't that what you really want in a Ferrari ? If you're going for sheer performance alone you would get a Porsche TT, a BMW M3 or M5 a Viper, a C5 Corvette or a host of other cars which easily out perform any Ferrari for a fraction of the cost. Just look at car club times at your local race track. The Porsch club, BMW club, Corvette club, and Viper club all do faster lap times around Road Atlanta than the 360 Challenge series. Even at Indy last month the Porsche cars turned much faster lap times than the 360 Challenge cars. But none of them are Ferraris. It's the soul thing again. Go for the Ferrari you like the most and can afford. Don't worry which is the fastest because they are all relatively slow compared to other high performance cars out there. |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 11:39 am: | |
The 360 is the better car. I'm not just saying that because I own one. Besides being a quicker car than the 355, the 360 is more flexible at lower speeds. It's also more comfortable on longer trips and carry more stuff if needed. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 24, 2001 - 10:57 am: | |
I still like the 355 more (even excluding looks) but the 360 would be "better" around town. But you might not want the typical "better" qualities to be found in your Ferrari, I know I don't. I'm glad Ferrari hasn't folded and put cupholders in their cars, that's what my jeep's for. |
martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 11:16 pm: | |
Had 97 355 now 99 360 euro-no contest-360 roomier,
faster, more comfortable,easier to get in /out exhaust sounds less shrill and more "deep throat"
bottom line-you won't go wrong with either! |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 8:56 pm: | |
360 |
brit bergesen (Brit)
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 23, 2001 - 8:02 pm: | |
I want to know details of what you think differences are between the two. Which is better around town, cruising, etc.?? And all around. Because looks are so different from person to person, please focus on just driving feel from power to handling to excitment!! |
|