| Author | Message | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 621 Registered: 9-2002 |
Brian...I'm a tech who services Ferrari, BMW, in fact we are a one of the largest pre-owned and off lease BMW dealers in the aera were I live. I have probbably driven every model of BMW since 1998 including the Z8. I have also driven at least 6 different 360's and I can't even count the amount of 348,355,TR's etc that i have driven,(in fact I have a 95 355 at my disposal). driving these cars is a daily occurance for me. Heck tomorrow I have numerous "dream cars" waiting for me to work on. I feel I have a good feel for what certain cars can do , just because I drive the things EVERYDAY!! When I first took out an STi WRX I was completly blowen away. I was shocked. I thought there is know possiable way that this little thing is that fast. Boy was I wrong!! It completly opened my eys to another world, of low cost high performance cars. An I have to admit I was disappointed because I wanted to be proved right about my assumption that it would not be faster then a 360. I was proved wrong. I compared the 360 to a BMW only because it seems that Ferrari has gone the way of making it too easy to go fast, A performance/ enthuists car should involve the driver, should make the driver part of the entire experiance, not just steping on the gas and flicking a padel. All I'm saying is that they have to start builing cars that are less "pretty boy". The 360sc is a fantastic start to this. But in my eyes this is what Ferrari should have built in the first place. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1044 Registered: 8-2001 |
Chris, I just saw the race yesterday on Speed Channel. He drove an incredible race with Randy Pobst on his tail for 3/4 of the race. That Viper is going to be an awesome car. I think Speed GT Series is about to get turned upside down by Paul and the other Viper driver, Bob MCCann. Tom, Was this a setup road course in a parking lot? Can't imagine that any of those cars which all weigh 200-300 pounds more than a 360 and all of them at least a 100 hp down could beat a 360 at any place like Lime Rock, Road America, Watkins Glen, Laguna or any other road course. The only thing those cars have going for them is the relative bargain price, awd, and possibly better brakes. I have driven an STi and it's fast in a straight line but the handling didn't impress me at all. It's basically an econo box with some nifty WRC parts. Please find the article. I always try to stick to facts and if you show me the facts I will concede your handling claim of a Subaru vs. a 360. Again not a skid pad test in a parking lot but a lap time at a race track with a professional (or near professional driver). Regards, Jon | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 759 Registered: 3-2002 |
Love it or hate it, you have to admit the ZO6 is the best buy out there. Do you think it is too much car for too little money ? Just wait a few more years ! Perhaps up to 500 horsepower with a good suspension and brakes ? I hope they continue to make the Z06 a terrific car. G/Bless the USA !!!! | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 412 Registered: 3-2002 |
> Actually Brian, the Murcielago weighs 4058lbs with a full tank of gas. OMG! 3638 was its dry weight! It *is* as heavy as an M5!! Hell, put a blower in an M5 and a few suspension upgrades and you have a Murci-beater, and you can bring 4 friends along for the ride!  (Oh, and you can get a 360 with the money you have left over... eh, Allan?) | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 411 Registered: 3-2002 |
Tom? A 2-door BMW with a nice sound? As owner of both modern Ferrari and modern BMW... you obviously have not driven either one. I love my BMW... but it is an entirely different animal from even the most "polished" of Ferrari. Tom? Ferrari doesn't seem interested in making cars like the F40 anymore? Go read the thread on the Challenge Stradale... or go to Ferrari.com and check it out there. Its about as far from BMW and as close to race car as you can get... unless you get one of the Challenge cars. And don't tell me you think a BMW "M" car is the same thing. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 620 Registered: 9-2002 |
Jon...I posted a while back the specs and road test number for the WRX, EVO and some other ones. Unfortunatly the Ferrari did not come out on top. Even on the track. I will have to search the archives but it is in there. I will find the mag tomorrow with the numbers. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 619 Registered: 9-2002 |
Guys please don't get me wrong..I love Ferrari's,and I always will(heck I just blew $118.00 on a model of one!!) I just feel that there are many other cars out there with very similar if not better performance abilities,for alot less. The F40 and the 512TR were the last real muscel Ferrari's. Ferrari does not seem interested in making this type of car anymore, which is a shame. These cars performed as everyone expected a Ferrari should perform. The 355 was also very close to what ferrari should be building. But I feel Ferrari has gone too far with tech and wizz bang gizmos, and has taken away from the raw seat of your pants feel like your in a race car type of car, to more like a 2 door BWM with a nice sound. Many cars out there on the road today will embarass a Ferrari on the street. It's too bad but thats the reality | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 746 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jon, my friend Paul Mumford just won his first pro-race in the new Viper race car. Paul is incredible! | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1043 Registered: 8-2001 |
Allan, No contest, although we are really comparing apples to oranges here with a street car with 500 hp and a race car with 415 hp. The power to weight ratio of a new Viper is about 6.7 (3350/500) while the 360C is a 6.1 (2580/415). AND the 360C is mid engine so it's much better balanced and has much bigger brakes. The skid pad figures that you read about in the auto mags are a bit irrelevant at the track. They are good comparison #'s for the sake of comparing but trying to get a car to achieve 1 g on a 50 foot skid pad at 40-50 mph and doing the same through a high speed corner at over 100 are two different things. The apples to apples comparison would be the new competition Viper which won the latest round of the Speed GT series at Laguna. Now there is a real Viper race car for about the same price as a 360C and it will spank the crap out of a 360C. Oh and by the way TOM......the Evo, STi and the Mazda will also get spanked by a stock 355. Just do the numbers the 355 has 380 hp and weighs less than any of them (3200 vs. the other three at all over 3250). Only the Evo has 300 hp and it's still overweight and a front engine design missing 80 hp. Only the brakes on a Evo 8 might be superior to an early model 355. Anyway as stated we all sound like a bunch of boys arguing about our TOYS! Hey Karson, get your butt up to the Glen next week. I'll need some more coaching to knock another 1/2 second off my lap time. Regards, Jon ALLAN.....Now this is Bad Ass....I am sure you will agree!  | ||
| Paul Loussia (Bumboola)
Junior Member Username: Bumboola Post Number: 179 Registered: 3-2003 |
Actually Brian, the Murcielago weighs 4058lbs with a full tank of gas. Admittedly, it handles incredibly well for a two ton automobile. But it's not going to be able change direction nearly as well as a 360, let alone a 360CS. | ||
| Corey Feldman (Meatballs_4)
New member Username: Meatballs_4 Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2003 |
Allan, better watch out for those z06s when you're in your Lotus, might get eaten alive haha. Go ahead and try to deny it, the 0-150 times are seconds apart! In fact, better watch out for the new cobras, they might have the lotus for breakfast, get those mods ready!!! lol | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 410 Registered: 3-2002 |
>I feel that Lamborghini has the $200-300,000 class completely tied up >with the Murcielago. To me there is nothing remotely close from Ferrari. The Mercilotsaweight weighs over 3600#, Allan! I don't consider anything over 3500# in the same class with the 360... more like the BMW M5. If I get a car that fat, I am expecting a grand tourer or a family hauler... not a car I'd take to a track or road course (maybe to an oval). Both the Murcilago and the Gallardo have styling that says "I wanna be a 360 when I grow up". Major styling theft... but then poorly executed... like they have no idea how to make those curves, so they just smoothed it out and chopped it off. Kind of what I expect from a Jr High art class when asked to draw a 360. If I were to list my top 20 most beautiful current cars, the Lamborghini's wouldn't be on it. They are definitely eye-catching... but beautiful, no. No way I pay that kind of money for a car I don't find beautiful. Now to be fair, if you asked for top 20 current models that I'd like to drive around for a day... the Lamborghini's would be on the list. Their specs are impressive... and they rate way high on uniqueness. But I'd never pay $200K-300 for mere performance... nor even exclusivity... there are waayyy higher performance options for waayyy less money than any production model in that price range... and I really don't care about exclusivity. So, why do I buy cars in that price range? ROLLING WORKS OF ART. Art is designed to stir the soul... to create passion... to take your breath away. Automotive art does it not only with the beauty that you see, but also with the beauty that you hear, and beauty that you feel when on the move. Ferrari understands this... they build performance for F1... they build works of art for the road. Lambo EITHER does not understand this, instead building for specs that beat Ferrari's specs... OR perhaps they understand it, but hired some of those modern artists that do the paintings with the squares of colors that I just don't get. Then, IMO, they also missed the art in the sound. They're pretty loud, but not loudly pretty... and far from stirring. Then comes the feel... and at 3600#, the Murcilago is in trouble before they even start trying to duplicate the Ferrari suspension feel. All in all, as automotive art goes, the Lambo's hold very little appeal for me in the end... although I love to see them at shows are on the road, I'd never plunk down the $$ on one. Well, the Muira was nice... but I wouldn't buy one unless I already had a 246GT in my collection. Similarly, back to the origin of this thread, the Z06... if I couldn't afford a 360 and wanted something to go to the track with, it would probably be a Z06... great sportscar. But if I can afford some rolling automotive art, the Z06 is barely even an option... its even uglier than the Lambos... its butt is way too fat... like somebody dropped the mold, smushing the rear... and then someone else picked it up and built it that way. Final comment... don't mean to offend any Lambo or Vette owners... one thing about buying *art*, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. My real point is that Allan is missing the point for many of us willing to put down that kind of money... and missing the point for many of us Ferrari nuts... ...its about ROLLING ART, not SPECS. Allan, leave us Ferrari lovers alone... you're like some moron modern art collector coming to a Renoir and Monet exhibit yelling at everyone about how much more wall space they could fill with the same amount of money. Nobody cares... they just wish the moron would shut the hell up. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 316 Registered: 9-2002 |
Just talk about Z06, or lambos and the threads go on forever. Boys with money | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 550 Registered: 3-2001 |
Vipers are pigs on the track. Maybe it's just that I have never seen one driven well (maybe all Viper drivers suck, I don't know), but I've never been beaten by a Viper in my 355 Challenge Car. Come on Allan....you should know better than trying to paper race!! You really shouldn't try to assess the performance threshold of a car on paper. Tires play a big role in that data. A 355/360 Challenge Car on slicks will negate that advantage, even when the Viper is on slicks as well. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 968 Registered: 6-2002 |
I dint know about that one. A Viper puts down incredible braking and skidpad figures to begin with (the new SRT), properly setup, i think the 360 would be toast. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 549 Registered: 3-2001 |
Allan.....with a 360 Challenge Car - I will spank any setup Z06/Viper and go head to head with a setup 996 turbo. In order for Ferrari to compete with the new Lambo lineup, Ferrari needs to increase the displacement of their motors. Until they do, Lambo wins bragging rights. Gotta give props where they are due. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 966 Registered: 6-2002 |
Well, i guess we can add that to all the 360 tranny failures we've got. Ive heard of no engine failures, there have been engine related recalls and or updates. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 745 Registered: 3-2002 |
that X1/9 sure looks small! | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 744 Registered: 3-2002 |
Allan, I suspect that any Ferrari or any Audi/Lambo dealer has both good and bad stories. I just know that in the last year he has put 2 new engines in Murci's, both engines failed with less than 1,500 miles, neither car was tracked. Electical issues seem to be the primary problems I am hearing about.... | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 965 Registered: 6-2002 |
No problem Chris!  | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 743 Registered: 3-2002 |
Allan........ you are so much fun.... ... see you at the tractor pulls! Sincerly, Proud X1/9 driver lol | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 964 Registered: 6-2002 |
Funny Chris, i have several good friends that are in the Lambo business, and all report that once Murcie's go out the door, theyre pretty much gone forever. Only one problem has been noted, and that is people blowing out the gauge cluster from incorrectly trying to jump start their cars. Now if you want to talk about quality control problems, why not start by asking some of your fellow 360 owners here. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 742 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jon, I like the new Murcie as well, Ferrari does not have anything above $200,000 I am interested in except an Enzo. An Enzo would mean selling the boat, something I am not interested in! Allan just loves to waive his flag, Lambo's (excuse me, Audi's) are now very respectable. Audi is doing a great job with Lambo, and I am sure Ferrari is taking notice... (I do have a very good friend who is a Lambo dealer, he admits that Murcie's are still having some significant quality problems, but it is slowly improving, I know Audi will do the right thing with the new "baby" lambo..) | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 963 Registered: 6-2002 |
Chris, you should learn to control your emotions. First off i was talking about NEW Ferraris. The F40 is not new. If Ferrari was following in the way of the F40, we would not be having this conversation. As to my tractor with Nitrous, i have driven f40's before, and stock for stock, youd have a very hard time with a Diablo Sv in acceleration, but id give the F40 a slight advantage, especially over 100mph. As a track car, no doubt the Ferrari also has an advantage, after all i dont have to pull on cords to open my door. Since youve modified your track going Fiat, so have i, and i can guarantee you, that in an acceleration test, your modified X1/9 would be seeing tractor taillights the whole way through. On the race track, its the driver that wins the races, not so much the car, and im not a race driver nor do i claim to be. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1041 Registered: 8-2001 |
Actually reading Chris Parr's post...let me clarify something. When I said Ferrari builds nothing in the 200-300K range I was referring to the current model line up not past F cars. I would likely pass up a Murci for a good F40 with some track mods like Chris P's car (though his car seems closer to an LM). The Daiblo GTR might be close to the wish list but I would have to drive it back to back with the F40. Regards, Jon | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1040 Registered: 8-2001 |
Allan, I am only talking about the 360 which is what I believe Tom referred to. No doubt an EVO 8 would give lesser Ferraris a hard time and beat many of them. I feel that Lamborghini has the $200-300,000 class completely tied up with the Murcielago. To me there is nothing remotely close from Ferrari. You'll get no arguement from me on this. If I were in the 200-300K market it would be the Murci or a Diablo SV or GTR (don't think you can get one for this price). Maybe a Zonda but nothing Ferrari builds in this price range. In the 100-150K bracket I would choose a 360CS only because of the styling, sounds and decent performance. Yeah a 996 is cheaper but it looks like any other 911, and the ZO6 is also way cheaper but it's still vette, and lastly the Viper is also a great car but not my cup of tea. I am past the point in my life were absolute 0-60 and top speed are the most important. I save all that Hoopla for the track where I can spend 50K for a 250 hp low budget Toyota Atlantic that no Lambo or Ferrari will ever keep up with.....not if you add twin turbos to either and jack them up to 1000 hp. | ||
| Chris Parr (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 741 Registered: 3-2002 |
Allan, excuse me? No Bad ass Ferrari's? Is that why you put Nitro on your tractor, excuse me, Diablo, to have a bad ass Lambo? Take that sissy nitro tank off your Lambo and meet me at PPIR or Cal Speedway, I do have a bad ass Ferrari. I am not the fastest or best driver, but I suspect my 355 will outdrive your Diablo on the track, if not the F40 will, and on street tires. William can bring his street 512 and you can watch him pass you about every 3rd lap.... Jon, in his 355C will pass you every 3rd as well... .... but I respect your right to be wrong. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 961 Registered: 6-2002 |
UMM John, i think MANY a Ferrari would have a very hard time with the new EVo 8 that is 300hp. John, the 360 Stradale is a pretty bad ass ride, but it doesnt stand out a class leader. I look at things this way, there are different car classes for different dollar amounts. I feel that Lamborghini has the $200-300,000 class completely tied up with the Murcielago. To me there is nothing remotely close from Ferrari. In the upper $700,000 class, Ferrari rules with the Enzo.Personally, i completely rule out this class because, i know i will never own an Enzo, so to me its as though it doesnt exist. In the $150,000 class, theres now a problem. You have the 360 and the Gallardo. Both great cars, equal $, regardless of which styling you prefer, the Gallardo is already known to be far superior in all performance aspects. Ferrari does not have a stand out car, until you hit the unobtainable. It used to not be that way, and it ended with the 512 Testarossa. I used to want a Diablo and a 512. Now i want a Murcielago, and nothing from Ferrari. Someother stand out cars: $50,000-Zo6 $80,000-Viper 120,000-996 Turbo. All three cars which can hurt a 360, for far less money. So in the end with the 360, with cars in its class, you can spend far less and still be superior performance wise, or spend the same with the Gallardo and lead the pack. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1039 Registered: 8-2001 |
Tom, Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, and a few others I can't think of right now, have cars that will out handel a 360 around a track,and beat it on the street for less then 40k. Baloney, what track?? What Mazda, Subaru, or Mitsu? The Evo 8, Mazdaspeed Protoge, and even the STi will never outhandle a 360 or pull it anywhere on a track. Show me some magazine tests or lap times for any of those cars that bested a 360 street car. they might come close but none can match it from the tests I have seen or the ones I have encountered on the track. They all have a higher center of gravity, are front engine cars, and are geared for 0-60 street use. Some may match 0-60 or 1/4 mile times but that isn't relevant to any track talk. Yeah, Dodge builds a nice Neon R/T that will blow a 308/328/348 into the weeds (well maybe not a 348) but you gonna impress folks with a Neon? Regards, Jon | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1038 Registered: 8-2001 |
Will, Don't know Victor with the silver one (can remember at least a dozen silver ones none being driven fast) and the blue one is quite fast but not what I would call world class. The one I am thinking of is Bob Henderson's red T1 ZO6 that he has run at Lime Rock w/ FCA and the Glen with Trackmasters. Bob came in 3rd in 01 at the SCCA Runoffs and I think 5th last year. The event I did at Lime Rock he passed everyone. The REST OF YOU, No one is arguing (at least I am not) that the ZO6 isn't a world class car for a lot cheaper than it's competition. But people buy different cars for different reasons (cost, styling, country of origin, performance). If everyone bought their cars based only on performance than the ZO6 would put Ferrari and Porsche out of business (or at least kill the standard 360 and 911 model lines). It beats them all. But we don't all buy our cars based on this alone. I have traded up to cars based both on looks and performance. Case in point I bought a more prestigeous Porsche 944S2 when it came out but six months later sold it for a Nissan 300ZX TT. People said why did you sell a Porsche for Nissan. I said simple...the Nissan spanked the Porsche in every performance category. Styling and motorsport heritage meant less to me at the point in time. I also traded in a modern Porsche (95 993) for an older Ferrari (88 TR). The 993 handled better, was faster from 0-60, and better built by a mile. But I loved the TR styling and people were dumbfounded why I bought a 10 year old car and got rid of my 2 year old car. Lastly, Allan, I think the 360CS is a bad ass Ferrari in some respects. It will never be bad ass the way a Lambo is but that is not what Ferrari is about. Lambo and Ferrari both build great exotics but tailor their cars to different customers. I for one love both cars but for different reasons. I could own a 360 for daily driving and a Murci for that weekend car to blast up the mountain side. We all buy different cars at different times in our lives for different reasons. That's what makes life interesting. Regards, Jon | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Junior Member Username: Willh Post Number: 246 Registered: 3-2003 |
These threads always strike me as bizarre. I'll bet a lot of Ferrari owners feel the way I do: I don't know whether there are far cheaper cars that have better specs, but I assume my car doesn't have the "best" specs, whatever that means, of any car ever made. I don't know what it means to say Ferraris are overpriced in a free market. I'm not at all upset that the Vette at $50k might be as fast as the Stradale I'm ordering. I realize that the concept of "as fast" is not as straightforward as some might think. The Vette site pretty much proves that. "Kills"? Come on. I won't be upset if next year Kia comes out with a little sport compact for under 20k that out performs a Ferrari on the track and will accelerate just as fast and looks somewhat o.k. I'll be impressed! I won't whine about being burned if the 575 costs more to maintain than other less expensive cars. If a Z06 pulls up next to me, I'll nod at him for choosing an impressive example of American iron, but if he wants to race, he's on his own, I race at tracks, not on the street. My Ferrari won't "lose" at the track to another car because I won't be "racing" it. Real racing involves classes and race groups and complex rules and all sorts of other factors entirely missing from marque club and open track day events. I feel sorry for club guys sometimes - I'm talking about the guy in a dead slow car who, after I've done a bunch of slow laps to break in a new engine, comes up to me and tells me proudly that he was "hanging with me in the corners." I feel pretty well informed about Ferrari reliability and maintenance costs, and warranty coverage. I actually believe that folks other than Ferrari make exquisite cars. I like Lambos. Respectfully, an interesting question is, why would someone feel so deeply that it's his duty to deprogram the brainwashed Ferrari owners - to get us to smell the coffee (heck, over on OT we had a long thread about coffee)? Why bother resenting someone who loves Ferrari, blindly or otherwise? Where's the threat? This is a Ferrari site. Be happy. Cheers! | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 618 Registered: 9-2002 |
Your right Allen. They need a bad ass Ferrari. Not a hair dressers dream | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 959 Registered: 6-2002 |
Id love to have bad-ass Ferrari next to my Lambo, but unfortunately, other than the unobtainable Enzo, there is no bad ass Ferrari anymore. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 617 Registered: 9-2002 |
Your right Mark..some people can't or are unwilling to admit that they have a very expensive imported car that can be beat by a relativly inexpensive domestic product. I love ferrari but I can give credit were credit is due. I don't care who builds the car. What if next year Kia comes out with a little sport compact for under 20k that out performes a Ferrari on the track and will accelerate just as fast and looks somewhat o.k.? Will they then finaly see the light? Will they only then realize that Ferrari has to step up to the plate and start produceing cars that are worth the 150k+ and have a propper warrenty to go with it? | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 821 Registered: 10-2001 |
Allan just has a way about him that reminds me of myself. I just don't repond to being brainwashed. I like to ask "why, what if, can we do better? am I getting screwed?" "Maybe" watching F1 is as dull as dishwater "Maybe" Ferrari's are way overpriced "Maybe" other do it cheaper, better, and with less hassel. Allan just likes to bug the guys that think Ferrari is the greatest. No ifs-ands or buts. For every guy on F-chat that is in love with his car and had a good experiance. I know two guys that got burned by Ferrari and will never come back(there expectations were too high, thinking that a big price tag meant no problems. didn't know what they were getting into). You don't hear their side of the story on F-chat. F-chat reprsents the people that have had a good enough experiance with Ferrari to still be in love. So ask yourself, are you an activist for change, like Allan? Allan is just worried about ferrari getting behind... New Lambo/Audi and New Ford GT and Viper... 15k and 30k intervals MUST be a thing of the past. Allan won't be happy until you guys do get pissed that the $50k vette is faster or as fast as a 360 at three times the price. What Allan doesn't understand... is that being brainwashed and happy is better then having your eyes wide-open and being helpless to do anything about it. (Big time Sports fans live their lives that way. YOu have to, your team can't have a winning season every year.) Allan go away! These guys don't want to be saved. LOL I don't think its Ferrari's fault. The others are just getting too fast and too advanced all at once. The differance between a $50k car and a $150k car is shrinking. People buy Ferrari for reasons that are hard to measure. Also.... since you can't have a good 007 movie without a real nasty bad guy. F-chat would lose some of its fun without Mr Lambo and his gold chains. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 616 Registered: 9-2002 |
Just because it ain't Ferrari doesn't mean it's not good. Some people on this board seem to have very closed minds when it comes to anything unless it's Ferrari. Some of you I fear are too brand loyal and don't want to give anything else a chance..even if it does cost 100k less and performes better with less hassel. I think many of you need to wake-up and smell the coffee. Cheap cars with lots of power and better handeling are starting to flood the market. Mazda, Subaru, Mitsubishi, and a few others I can't think of right now, have cars that will out handel a 360 around a track,and beat it on the street for less then 40k. Yes they don't have the look, yes they don't have the prestige,no you can't brag to your friends how much it costs. But at the end of the day what are you going to say when you lose the race? "ya but mine is a Ferrari?" So what!! you lost and thats all that matters at the end of the day. You will also be laughed at and people will talk behined you back because "the guy in the 250k Ferrari just got beat buy a factory stock WRX". You will leave the track with your tail between your legs!!. Ferrari's are not the fastest cars out there anymore. Face it..you will be beat by a ZO6,clean and fair!! So what it doesn't rev to 9000 RPM , so whoat it does not look the same..it's not supposed to...so what it cost 40k...It beat you!! and the bragging rights go to the Corvette. | ||
| Eric Stringer (Vette79)
New member Username: Vette79 Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2002 |
hey its all on taste. like someone previously said i can take a 1500 dollar junker civic and spend 30k on a custom frame and suspension and 10k on an engine and end up with a 41,500 dollar car that will beat the stuffing out of a 90,000 dollar exotic. the zo6's are increibly fast for the price, and because of that you have to live with knowing there are 40,000+ examples of the same year same look car as yours. some people that buy them couldnt give a •••• that there might be 4 more on the block than his. he just likes the performance. and as far as not being stable at high speeds, they are stable at high speeds however I have not yet driven a corvette of any year that is stock that doesnt feel slightly floaty at speeds above 120. dont know why. design flaw or something. in the end it all comes down to what you want for your money. performance or exotic level class. if you want both then you had better plan on forking out some cash. but hey its just mho. | ||
| Dan Gordon (Ferruccio)
Junior Member Username: Ferruccio Post Number: 207 Registered: 2-2003 |
I live in Kansas and see around 5 corvettes a day. They may be fast but there also boring. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 956 Registered: 6-2002 |
Oh the hostility!lol | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 334 Registered: 7-2003 |
...but you can't make him drown in his own piss. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 711 Registered: 5-2002 |
L. Unfortunately the father thing was just someone�s excellent sense of humor....about the time most people had gotten pretty fed-up with the crap that spews from Allen finger tips...I�m actually a little surprised Rob didn�t ban him for life in the last spat...clearly he didn�t learn, you can lead a horse to water.... | ||
| Thomas I (Wax)
Member Username: Wax Post Number: 332 Registered: 7-2003 |
12 gauge shotguns have more killpower than 20 gauge shotguns. Nevertheless, I would rather pay more for an inspiring, magnificentally engraved 20 gauge with efficient gunsmithing than an uninspiring 12 gauge with an unpleasant recoil. | ||
| Byron Faber (Adrenln328)
New member Username: Adrenln328 Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2003 |
There is room for both in the lives of those who love automotive excellence. Both look great, perform to high standards & sound authoritative. I get about the same amount of appreciative comments in both cars. They each have very strong points in their behalf.  | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2610 Registered: 10-2002 |
L. Alan is quite real and owns the cars he says he owns. | ||
| L. (Testaroja)
Junior Member Username: Testaroja Post Number: 150 Registered: 5-2003 |
Allan, are you the guy that claims to have all this cars and your father posted about you talking crap, he said that the diablo and countach or whatever were his and that you were pretending to be your toys? I'm just asking, is it that you? | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 679 Registered: 4-2003 |
My point was that many of your posts are attempts to put down Ferrari rather than offering any useful insight. You have more experience with exotic cars than most people on this board and could be very helpful. Only problem is that you make a lot of obnoxious posts, apparently for no other reason than provoking an argument. When you do make a valid point many people tend to assume you are simply bashing Ferrari again and disregard what you have to say. The Corvette is a great performing car for $50k but it definitely has a few flaws. For one the fit and finish outside is atrocious, the interior also leaves much to be desired. Many ill fitting plastic pieces that rattle or squeek. I love driving it but simply because it will accelerate faster in a straight line does not make it superior to a Ferrari. And even you should admit that the guy who thinks his Z06 will keep up with an Enzo is smoking crack. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1418 Registered: 1-2002 |
I'm not reading into anything... just commenting on the sentiments that you purvey on here, the various other threads (i.e., lambo v. ferrari, enzo carbon quality, merci v. 360, etc. etc.). | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 931 Registered: 6-2002 |
I'm Ferrari brainwashed, and proud of it! Best! Ben. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 955 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hubert, just out of curiosity, when did Lambo come into this? Its merely a topic, stop trying to read into it further. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1417 Registered: 1-2002 |
So, what are you after , Allan? Some universal writ of submission from all Ferrari owners to the tune of "allan's the man. lambo forever. ferrari sucks."? Not to be, incindiary, but haven't you forgotten your "history?" If it weren't for ferrari, Lambo (as far as the cars are concerend) woudln't even exist; had it not been for ferrari refusing to build lambo a car the way mr. l wanted it, you wouldn't have a "higher ground" to stand on. Maybe that's why you're discontent, maybe you really do like lambos, but you can't get over the fact that without ferrari's impetus, the cars you so dearly love wouldn't exist; maybe it's the fact that (even under the pretense of malice) you owe ferrari (in spirit) for creating the brand that you love so much. Maybe that duality is what's really bothering you; giving thanks to the antithesis. Or, maybe, you just like being mean spirited, pissing people off, or pissing on someone elses parade. Either way, take it easy, and enjoy your cars (even if you hate 1/2 of them). | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 950 Registered: 6-2002 |
"Mark Moron" | ||
| Mark Moon (Enzomoon)
Member Username: Enzomoon Post Number: 284 Registered: 4-2002 |
Allan: You are an idiot. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 946 Registered: 6-2002 |
Mark, judging by the posts here, some people do care. Sorry if you cant handle someone on Fchat who isnt Ferrari brainwashed. I give the good and the bad. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3152 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jon, are you refering to David with the silver Z06, or Victor, or the guy with the blue Z06 ? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1416 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>When i said efficient i meant it makes the same power using less fuel.<< How do accomplish feeding in 150% more air, and use less gas? Maybe if you put around at 1500 rpm all the time, but WOT the z06 will use more gas... | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1415 Registered: 1-2002 |
YOU know, honestly, at the end of the day it comes down to what you really want, or how big of a wad you're willing to blow. If you're gonna track/race/etc. a car you either pick one that's "cheap" (boy, that's funny), or you get THE one you want, b/c you can afford the luxury of fulfilling your dream (whatever it may be). Now, the rest of this "my car can beat up your car" nammby pammby talk is best left to those that have neither an inclination, nor any real drive to be true enthusiasts ( oh , wait, it already is). | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3408 Registered: 6-2001 |
When i said efficient i meant it makes the same power using less fuel. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 926 Registered: 6-2002 |
A z06 with slicks is a pretty amazing car, but the 360CS makes more power :D) I have never felt comfortable pushing a C5, not half as comfortable as I feel in, say, ANY mid-engine Ferrari I've ever driven. It may be a personal taste issue, but I liked my Fiero a hell of a lot faster than the C5. I was probally faster in it too. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1414 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>Refering to the engineering of the chevy, i said it wsa better because it gets the same power but with more torque than the 360 engine. It does so more efficiently, more reliably, and its cheaper to service and costs less to begin with. So what im saying is it does a better job, cheaper. the fact that it doesnt rev to 9k is beacuse it doesnt have to. whats the point of revving to 9k when your engine makes more torque at 2k rpms? less wear and tear.<< I don't know what you're trying to say here, but whatever it is , it's muddled. The z06 engine is NOT more efficent than the 355 motor (unless you've reinvented the meaning of "efficent.") The fact that it's a 5.7 l engine making (now) 405 hp v. a 3.6 l EMPIRICALLY proves that it's less efficent; as in, it's power output is on account of it's displacement, and the fact that it's nearly double the displacement of the 355, means its less efficent. You're wrong, plain and simple. Further, it doesn't rev to 9k b/c it COULDN'T! Have you considered the mass of pistons that size? Or , have you thought about the rod/stroke ratio of a motor that size? It's a low tech motor, that makes up for lack of engineering ingenuity by displacement; there's nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't make the motor more efficent, it does, however, make it cheaper to produce. I like the z06 and I like the 355. And before start in on me being ferrari brainwashed, save it. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1413 Registered: 1-2002 |
Kevin: >>any speed while the z06 still feels like there is shock absoption going on and on and on. you hit a tiny bump and it takes awhile to calm itself down.<< Try some different toe and ride height settings on your z06. | ||
| Jason W (Pristines4)
Member Username: Pristines4 Post Number: 681 Registered: 12-2002 |
Jon, I never get tired of reading your posts. Jason- | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 707 Registered: 5-2002 |
A Z06 is a wonderful car....but I'll just keep my old Ferrari thank you. Tim, torque is a function of displacement...hp is torque x rpm, so if you start with a smaller engine (and I've never really understood why they do)you have to spin it faster to make the power...or add boost | ||
| Mark Moon (Enzomoon)
Member Username: Enzomoon Post Number: 277 Registered: 4-2002 |
Allan: What makes you think we care about what they think of Fcars on the Vette forum? I am sure they think Vettes are better than your beloved Lamborghinis as well. This post is another one of your pointless jabs. Perhaps you might be more respected on this site if you could post something positive about Fcars on occasion, but given your long history of trying to create consternation here that seems wishful thinking? | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3407 Registered: 6-2001 |
But for $40k for a used one i can see myself in one alot sooner than in a F355. Jon, on chevrolet's web page they say that every 15k miles it needs an oil change. This obviously doesnt apply to one thats being tracked though. I dont think all LS6's are having reliability problems. The LS1 is a good motor and the LS6 isnt all that different. Billy, a member who used to post here a while ago, has a vette hardtop with the 450rwhp cartek X-package and it's been trouble free for i think 30k miles and probably a hundred drag strip passes. He uses it as a daily driver. Refering to the engineering of the chevy, i said it wsa better because it gets the same power but with more torque than the 360 engine. It does so more efficiently, more reliably, and its cheaper to service and costs less to begin with. So what im saying is it does a better job, cheaper. the fact that it doesnt rev to 9k is beacuse it doesnt have to. whats the point of revving to 9k when your engine makes more torque at 2k rpms? less wear and tear. | ||
| Kevin Marcus (Rumordude)
Junior Member Username: Rumordude Post Number: 198 Registered: 9-2001 |
owning a z06 mysql as well as several ferraris (one of which is a f355c btw), the 06 is definitely a competitor. however, i do notice the suspension on the z06 is very bouncy compared with the f355c. on top of that, the overall car stability at higher speeds isn't quite there. the f355c feels stable at most any speed while the z06 still feels like there is shock absoption going on and on and on. you hit a tiny bump and it takes awhile to calm itself down. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1035 Registered: 8-2001 |
Tim, The guy you are talking about at Lime Rock (wasn't there but have run with him elsewhere) is a world class driver and would be fast in anything from a ZO6 to a VW Beetle. The fact that he passed a bunch of poorly driven 360's means nothing. It's very rare that my 355 C ever gets passed by a 360 C but that doesn't mean my car is just as fast only that the people I have encountered in 360 C's aren't driving as fast. Laptimes the ZO6 is a bit faster in fact it's faster in some magazine tests than a 996TT. But as far as just an oil change that's baloney. The ones that are raced in T1 SCCA are always having things break. I have two friends who race them and my one friend has had everything on the car cooked (trans, clutch, wheel bearings). The other car I know have had problems cooking the wheel bearings frequently. Over a single lap the ZO6 will be faster, over 5 laps it'll be faster, but over an entire season the 360 believe it or not will be more reliable. As far as better engineered...give me a break it's a whopping 5.7 liters and they can get 420 hp vs. a tiny 3.6 liter V8 that puts out nearly the same hp. Try reving a ZO6 to 9000 RPM then clean up all the engine parts off your garage floor. The ZO6 is a great car for an unbelievable price and one of the fastest prodcution cars built. It's faster than almost all the 100K exotics....no one is denying that but it still looks like a NSX KNOCKOFF. I have owned two vettes and currently own a Chevy product (3/4 ton Crew Cab Silverado w/8.1 liter engine) so I am not totally biased against a Chevy but their engineering isn't even close to Ferrari. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 www.flatoutracing.net | ||
| ty (360mode)
Junior Member Username: 360mode Post Number: 178 Registered: 9-2002 |
"nice kill"?? omg... there are a lot of cars out there faster than fcars, so what. if someone would rather have a vette than a 360, more power to 'em. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3404 Registered: 6-2001 |
According to a ferrari owner i met at lime rock, a Z06 is faster and easier to drive around a track than a 360. There wasa z06 there and it was passing 360's. Less than 1/3rd the price, more torque, faster, 28mpg on the highway, every 15k miles it only needs an oil change anf not a full tune up.... its ok to admit that a chevrolet is engineered better than a ferrari. you guys think waayyy to highly of Ferrari. | ||
| John B (John_b)
Junior Member Username: John_b Post Number: 56 Registered: 5-2003 |
Nah, I was at a track day at Pocono with a ch of Z06's. They couldnt catch me. | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 369 Registered: 4-2002 |
I just love reading fiction.... | ||
| Adam (Fasttalk)
Junior Member Username: Fasttalk Post Number: 239 Registered: 8-2002 |
I would rather drive slow, and look gooooooooooood | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 974 Registered: 7-2001 |
I could hop up a Nova enough to beat a 360 in a drag race...so what, it's still a dime a dozen, shoddily built, mass produced pile. What's really funny is that they think they've really got something there...LOL! | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 547 Registered: 4-2003 |
Not really a suprise, the Z06 has more torque than a 360. Other than you, who really cares though. This line was funny:
| ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 612 Registered: 9-2002 |
LOL Funny though..I beleive it. The z06 is a fast car...reliable and tough. I have driven a couple of them..and I'm surprized each time. You can easliy forget how fast these cars are. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 938 Registered: 6-2002 |
http://www.z06vette.com/forums/showthread.php?s=94990b24952288471a1e4c3f62d978ea&threadid=44054 |