| Author |
Message |
mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 131
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 10:39 pm: | |
I heard the thief showed heavy credentials - including some sort of legal / law enforcement ID prior to the test drive. |
Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
Member
Username: Karmavore
Post Number: 409
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 12:11 pm: | |
Because the police take murderers more seriously than international super car thieves, I imagine.
Luke. |
V.Z. (Ama328)
Member
Username: Ama328
Post Number: 272
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 11:56 am: | |
if the salesman had held the key until seats were swapped, might have been a bad scene ending; what if the thief had test driven the car to the get away truck & someone had force fed a gun down the salesman's throat ? |
Alex Lee (Alxlee)
Junior Member
Username: Alxlee
Post Number: 226
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Friday, October 03, 2003 - 7:32 am: | |
I have heard (from news reports) that they did have an ID. The thief actually provided credit/financial information for them to check, except that it was for a wealthy Atlanta business man. The article link was posted here somewhere last week. |
Marc Brenner (Mabf355)
New member
Username: Mabf355
Post Number: 2
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 01, 2003 - 9:21 pm: | |
It's funny how you commented on how the thief could not have gotten onto a plane without I.D. when you must also consider the fact that this man was probably NOT from Atlanta like he claimed. What are the chances that the theif is also dishonest??!! As far as Algar goes, my father and I have been doing business with them for years, and they are excellent people. They let my dad drive the 355 F1 when it first came out in 1998 (without asking for a ride, they offered it to him). They are great people to deal with and if you do not know them, stop with the judgements. Professional crimals can con the best of them, and thats all that happened.
P.S. AMK, the owner of Algar is not looking to get out of the business or the area, infact recently he was speculating buying Don Rosen Porsche after the PennMark Auto Group did not get Don's franchise.....just my 2cents...thanks |
david charles (Supraboytt)
Junior Member
Username: Supraboytt
Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 2:36 pm: | |
this story must be awfully big - it was on the bostonglobes website yesterday
does anyone have any new info? |
Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 1446
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 1:20 pm: | |
So has anyone talked to Algar people since?
--Dan |
Joe (Jts)
Junior Member
Username: Jts
Post Number: 110
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 1:16 pm: | |
thanks - I was scratching my head and feeling very thick  |
Amir (Amir)
Junior Member
Username: Amir
Post Number: 140
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 1:13 pm: | |
Diamonds twinkle and the Mississippi delta is very wide.
Meaning asskissing frenzy on a grand scale. Sorry, poor metaphor. |
Joe (Jts)
Junior Member
Username: Jts
Post Number: 109
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 1:10 pm: | |
Amir, I'm sorry, but I have to ask:
quote:If they smiled any wider or their eyes twinkled any more, you'd have diamonds bigger than the Mississippi delta.
What does that mean? |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 1128
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 12:56 pm: | |
Problem #2 - he could NOT HAVE BOARDED an airplane without any form of ID. Period. End of story. This includes private charter.
A) he could have flown up on his own airplane
|
AMK (Amk)
New member
Username: Amk
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 12:50 pm: | |
As for the DL, it wasn't really a test drive because the salesman was driving it. No ID is needed to be a passenger in a car with dealer tags. The thief then talked his way into the driver seat. The best way around this would have been for the salesman to hold onto the key until he is back in the passenger seat, which I'm sure he will do from now on. |
Amir (Amir)
Junior Member
Username: Amir
Post Number: 139
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 12:16 pm: | |
Jon, if you re-read my post, I used the phrase "Not saying it's right..." I agree with you. There's no excuse for ass-kissing.
In this case, though, if the customer was not driving the car off the lot, there was no need for a photocopy of the driver's license.
I also don't think that a photocopy of a driver's license is a requirement in order for insurance companies to pay out on theft claims. Generally, thieves try not to leave proof of ID and I can't imagine an insurance clause requiring any such thing before paying out for a stolen car.
I think insurance companies do require them when test-driving customers are involved in crashes with dealer cars. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 1082
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 12:11 pm: | |
Amir,
That's all well and good if you know the person but that wasn't likely the case here (again more speculation on my part).
Bottom line is that if you phrase it right you can request such. A simple... "I don't mean to be rude but our insurance company has been very adamant about getting proper documentation before a test drive. I'll be happy to have someone photocopy the license while you're out on a test drive so you don't lose anytime in the car."
If they are so desperate to sell the car that the customer is being treated with "kid gloves" and all manner of formality is being chucked out the window that is wrong.
If someone you have never met and is not know to the general public (i.e. can be identified with out ID, for example Arnold Schwarzenagger) and hasn't been referred to you gets upset, tough ••••!
Assuming for the moment hypothetically that this is indeed what happened (no indication it is) then Algar lost more than a sale. They lost a half million dollar car, tarnished their reputation, and will likely pay thousands or millions more in insurance premiums.
The fear of losing a sale and offending a buyer is going to be many times more expensive now than just losing the sale on an Enzo.
Jon |
Amir (Amir)
Junior Member
Username: Amir
Post Number: 138
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 11:46 am: | |
Brian,
I don't think you are correct about a claim being void simply because a photocopy of the license is not taken.
When dealerships say they need a copy of your license for "insurance purposes" it is for the liability portion, ie. if a customer test-driving their car crashes it, then they are not liable for letting an unlicensed driver get behind the wheel of their car.
In this case, since the customer did not drive it off the lot, there was no need to make a copy of the license. Since it's not an accident claim, it's not even an issue. I don't know for sure, but I'd be willing to bet that Algar is covered. |
Brian W (Jetx)
Junior Member
Username: Jetx
Post Number: 160
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 11:37 am: | |
>>you must be kidding. It is considered rude and confrontational to demand ID at very high-end establishments<<
No, I'm not kidding. A customer that the dealer doesn't know, and suddenly they hand him keys to a $750k car?
I'll tell you who else won't be kidding - Algar's insurance company. You can bet your ass that the insurance company won't be paying that claim. |
Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Member
Username: Tuttebenne
Post Number: 297
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 11:37 am: | |
Word up. I just ran a "Karfax" on the car. It shows up as being delivered on Monday to a Mr. Panis in France. ;-)
|
Amir (Amir)
Junior Member
Username: Amir
Post Number: 137
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 11:17 am: | |
Up your ass? |
Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member
Username: Ralfabco
Post Number: 854
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 11:03 am: | |
We all know where the girlfriend can put the
umbrella ! |
Amir (Amir)
Junior Member
Username: Amir
Post Number: 135
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 10:55 am: | |
Brian,
you must be kidding. It is considered rude and confrontational to demand ID at very high-end establishments. If necessary, it is done very discreetly. Usually, you are ushered in and only pleasantries are exchanged, if you play your cards right. Everyone seems to acquire hushed and reverential tones when a seemingly wealthy prospective buyer walks in.
Shopping for cars or houses at the top tier implies you have the money. People start spouting "indeed" and "why, yes" and "right away sir" and your purchase becomes an "acquisition" and people talk to your watch or look past your shoulder to make sure noone is approaching. They also worry about where your wife/girlfriend would put her umbrella, and often you get to drive the car home and they send the paperwork around later. If they smiled any wider or their eyes twinkled any more, you'd have diamonds bigger than the Mississippi delta. The mere formality of a driver's license photocopy can always be dealt with later, after all the salesperson was going to drive the car in this case. Instead of "do you want to buy this car" the attitude becomes, "what can we do for you".
Not saying it's right, but I have never been asked for ID when I drove Ferraris or Lamborghinis or the Maybach. I have a standing invitation from Ferrari of Houston for a ride in an Enzo, which is always a sold car. Once we are out on a drive, I don't think it would take too much to persuade the salesperson to let me try it out in an empty lot if I acted like I might consider paying the million plus for the ones that sometimes come on the market.
I have always been asked for ID for test drives on Nissans and BMWs and American SUVs. Yup, you gotta show ID for Starbucks. |
Brian W (Jetx)
Junior Member
Username: Jetx
Post Number: 159
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 10:29 am: | |
>>He took a limo there anyway so why would he even need his license<<
You're kidding right?
Problem #1 - who doesn't carry ID of some type?
Problem #2 - he could NOT HAVE BOARDED an airplane without any form of ID. Period. End of story. This includes private charter.
Problem #3 - the fact that Algar allowed someone without ANY ID to drive their most expensive car, they shouldn't be surprised at what happened.
Nope, I'm not suggesting anything other than sheer stupidity. Can't even buy a coffee at Starbucks with a credit card without ID anymore. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 1080
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 9:58 am: | |
We are all speculating here which is all fine and dandy but let's not get into a verbal shouting match over the folks at Algar. At this point they are the victims until proven otherwise.
You all are assuming he called up that morning and strolled into the showroom a few hours later.
It's entirely possible (again my speculation) that the thief stole someone's identity in Atlanta and that Algar had done a background check on the person or at the minimum checked with FoA.
Could be that the thief used a well known successful person's identity in the Atlanta area. Maybe someone who was out of the country, out of town, or unreachable to verify the information.
Happens all the time. I don't think the guy just called up out of the blue and showed up at the door an hour later.
I think that Algar thought they were dealing with someone else they checked out.
There are a hundred possibilities and we will likely never know what happened.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
www.flatoutracing.net
|
DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member
Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 6732
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 9:54 am: | |
quote:For every serious potential buyer and DES who has ever been nicely escorted out of the F Dealer, after having been denied a test drive ~
This Bud is for you.
You have to have a smirk to some degree!
LMAO...!
quote:Anyone buy into the theory that DES hooked
up with a Japanese Girl after grabbing the F-50
and is on his way to Osaka on a freighter ?
Double LMAO...!
Erik, you make a very valid point about the dealership just trying to do their job... |
Dean (Deanger)
Junior Member
Username: Deanger
Post Number: 71
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 30, 2003 - 9:46 am: | |
It just goes to show you life is all about the details...
I'm sure this thief/thieves spent weeks if not months, not only planning this, but pulling this off. This guy probably started to talking to Algar Ferrari MONTHS in advance... Laying the groundwork, building a relationship, phone calls, jokes...etc. (NOTE-YES, I'M SPECULATING like everyone else).
Then, after building up a relationship he comes in, he hesitates, hems, haws, wasn't really thinking of pulling the trigger today but now he's tempted... etc.
And somewhere along the way you decide to FORGOE the detail of the DL. Or you copy it but don't run the record and find out its fake... whatever...
Afterall, you KNOW this guy, you've been talking to him for months...
See what I mean?
The people who did this were GREAT at it, I'm sure. I highly doubt they just walked in and did this cold. He drove around the corner, into a disguised truck lined with metal in case there was a tracking device. |
Richard W. Barclay (Noesis)
New member
Username: Noesis
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 11:15 pm: | |
F-50 production numbers... 101919 to 107575 only 349+ 1995 to 1997
F-50 GT ... 001 to 003 only 3 1996 to 1997
In my oppinion, someone screwed up on fixing one and needed parts before his boss found out...
Maybe they'll pass it off as a replication?
On a serious side.. it's a matter of time for the insurance people. You can never drive it unless you already own one. and I sure every one will be looked at somehow.
PS isn't any theft over $5,000.00 a felony?
With FBI, The Attorny General etc. involved? |
Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member
Username: Ralfabco
Post Number: 848
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 10:23 pm: | |
Insurance company investigation ?
Are you kidding ?
You better believe that someone will
check the policy and see how well the
procedures were followed. No D license,
and other policy procedures that were missed
will only cause the Ins co., to dig more.
It is not exactly a Maserati Bi-turbo that
disappeared.
Anyone buy into the theory that DES hooked
up with a Japanese Girl after grabbing the F-50
and is on his way to Osaka on a freighter ? |
AMK (Amk)
New member
Username: Amk
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 10:00 pm: | |
I have been folloing this story and this thread so much that I had to register to get my 2 cents in. I've been reading the back and forth comments of weather or not the owner/salesmen are nice guys or complete a-holes. I know the owner pretty well. He is a nice guy and has always taken the time to talk with me, even over dinner once or twice. I have sat in his office many time and had talks with him. At the same time though, he has be blowing off a few people I know about getting cars. I also heard that he is trying to get away from the business and the area. I believe that anything is possible. Being in the need for $ will make you do crazy things. Was he in on it? Maybe, maybe not. We will probably never know what really happend, unless the insurance co. or LMPD do a big investigation.
As for the people on this board who stick up for him, you are the ones he kisses up to. If you didn't buy as many cars from him as you do, he probably would treat you like everyone else below him. He has such an ego about owning a ferrari dealer.
How could all the people in this area miss a bright red exotic car being driven onto a truck. My feeling is that it was hidden for the day then put on a truck under the cover of darkness. I'm sure it's out of the country by now and maybe into it's new owners hands. Or maybe it's still tucked away in gladwyne somewhere. |
Glenn R Murphy (Glennm27)
New member
Username: Glennm27
Post Number: 4
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 7:07 pm: | |
There are many strange things about this story! Is Bryn Mawr, Rosemont, Villanova, Lancaster Ave, Haverford Ave the place to test drive a car like an F50? For those that do not know the Algar location, there is not ONE place where they probably were able to do anything with the car that you could not do in a rental Ford. Nothing but congestion and traffic and traffic lights.
And of course, test driving ANY car without providing a drivers license?? What's with that?
AND, what is a person looking for when test driving an F50, especially under the conditions mentioned above.
If I were interestted, I would want to test it at a nearby race track, ie: Nazareth Speedway, an hour or so from Algar.
Thats where I'd expect to test drive a car like ANY Ferrari. Not saying I'd be buying it to race it, but I'd want to feel the car the way it's made to be driven.
PS. I'll should let you all know that I am NOT a Ferrari owner, just a Ferrari lover who hopes to someday own one. I hope I'm still welcome on this forum/chat
Thanks
Glenn |
Erik (Teenferrarifan)
Member
Username: Teenferrarifan
Post Number: 336
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 7:07 pm: | |
I have been thinking about this a lot. Going to Algar as often as I do I find this hard to understand how someone could pull this off, but hey things happen. Then I started realizing that the dealership was just trying to sell the car. Some members here get on the dealers case because they don't come up and talk to them if they aren't dressed nice, others complain the dealers won't do this or that. I realize now Algar thought they had a buyer and so did the salesman so he asked his manager if a test drive was ok. I am sure this guy played the part of a smart fcar guy. He prob. went through specs or stated what he knew about the car and how and where he was going to keep and use it. Then he prob said do you mind if I get a ride before I make a final decision. It's not like the guy took the car out by himself or the dealership thought he was going to drive the car during the trip they didn't know he was. The decision to let him go on a test drive went through the chain of command and I bet the guy came across like he really did leave his wallet in the hotel room at the airport. He took a limo there anyway so why would he even need his license. I think we try and have it both ways. You complain if your dealer doesn't show respect to you if you are under dressed or appear as if you can't afford an f-car. Then when you show up like you can and you forget your license you flip out they let him go for a ride in the car.
Erik |
Morrie Richfield (Carnut)
Junior Member
Username: Carnut
Post Number: 76
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 12:05 pm: | |
I've always found this forum to be a good place to get, share information that could benefit fellow owners, future owners, and just plain dreamers (as we were all one of those at one time).
I enjoy reading everyones opinion (by the way the new issue of Automobile magazine just tested the new lambo, 360 & GT40, 360 still the best, should get that message to allen), because I know I do not know everything, and am always willing to learn something new, the one thing I do not think belongs here is calling people names, sorry Bruce but saying someone is from another planet is alittle too far. I can only speak from my experience, though I find it odd that they could be one way to me and so different to you, but it is not my place to doubt that you felt slighted, and I would never think of calling you any kind of name.
These are decent people, and yes like all of us they have feelings, and they read these boards and the customers in their showroom read these boards. My company has 350,000 customers worldwide and we try as hard as we can to keep them all happy, I could lose 10,000 of them and would hardly make a dent in our bottom line. The Ferrari world is a small place, its not that hard to destroy a reputation, I hope we all keep that in mind in the future.
|
spanky mcdoogle (Spanker)
New member
Username: Spanker
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 11:26 am: | |
It's amazing to me that you people can speculate about Algar and condemn them when you all know so little about what actually happened.
If this same event happened at Ferrari-UK, would you slam them, as well?...Likely not, as that's your preferred parts source...and Mark would woop your collective as*es for acting like total idiots.
Reading the nonsense on this post confirms my suspicions - This is no correlation between having money and intelligence! |
J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Member
Username: Jeff
Post Number: 275
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:36 am: | |
Bruce
I sent you one.
Jeff |
Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Advanced Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 3043
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:12 am: | |
J D
I SENT YOU A PRIVATE EMAIL
THANKS,
BRUCE |
J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Member
Username: Jeff
Post Number: 274
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 9:06 am: | |
Bruce
We are talking about the same owner. I can appreciate your differences of opinion. I remember reading some of your posts a couple of years ago and appartently you had a bad experience with a salesman. In my case when I lived in the Philly area. I used to go into Algars for hours a day just to drool at the cars. I was surprised I wasn't arrested for loitering. I did this for about 2 years before ever ordering a car. I had plenty of time to get to know everyone at Algar including the owner and I never had a bad experience.
just my .02 |
DES (Sickspeed)
Senior Member
Username: Sickspeed
Post Number: 6674
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 8:58 am: | |
Oh, Mark, that looks just plain weird...! Red's gonna bug out when he sees that...! LOL... |
Kevin Marcus (Rumordude)
Junior Member
Username: Rumordude
Post Number: 202
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 8:45 am: | |
regarding f50 prices, keep in mind that there are some other differences with the f50 and the enzo:
* of the 288gto, f40, f50 and now the enzo, the only one which has a top that can come off is the f50.
* fewer f50's were made than f40's or enzo's. I don't know production numbers on the 288 gto, but i would imagine it's less still than the f50.
* people who were on the waiting list for the enzo but didnt get one may consider moving into the f50 since the enzo is out of their grasp (well unless than have the 1M+ sucker bid) Keep in mind the dealer has first right of repurchase if the owner wants to sell.
|
Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Member
Username: Ralfabco
Post Number: 833
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 8:28 am: | |
For every serious potential buyer and DES who has ever been nicely escorted out of the F Dealer, after having been denied a test drive ~
This Bud is for you.
You have to have a smirk to some degree!
|
Bruce Wellington (Bws88tr)
Advanced Member
Username: Bws88tr
Post Number: 3042
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 8:08 am: | |
J.D.....THE" OWNER IS A JOY TO TALK TO"...YOU HAVE TO BE KIDDING ME...HES FROM MARS, UNLESS WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A DIFFERENT OWNER
THANKS,
BRUCE |
J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Member
Username: Jeff
Post Number: 272
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 8:00 am: | |
I agree with Morrie. I've purchased a few Ferraris from Algar. My wife and I are always treated with respect. Taking a test drive in any car was never any issue. I find the owner a joy to talk to. My salesman has treated my fairly and has always been upfront and honest. I can't imagine buying a Ferrari anywhere else. |
Paul Bianco (Paulie_b)
Member
Username: Paulie_b
Post Number: 878
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 29, 2003 - 7:08 am: | |
This whole episode is unfortunate but good info for us to learn from. This does not only have to happen to a dealer but what about a private seller? Can you imagine it happening to you? God forbid! Lets learn from their misfortune. |
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