| Author | Message | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 823 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well lets see. I would say that I have about thirteen to fourteen hours in at this point. Keep in mind that I'm taking my time. This is not something that you rush, and it is the first time that have done something like this. I would say that I have spent about $700 - $800 in tools, I just buy them as I need them. As for parts about $1,250 - $1300 so far. Resale Shmeesale, I'm not worried about hurting the resale value at all. I'm not fixxing it up so that that I can sell it. I bought the car for me to enjoy, not the next guy. | ||
| Mfennell70 (Mfennell70)
Junior Member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 170 Registered: 7-2001 |
So how many hours do you have in your major Ernie? And how much did you spend in tools + parts? Are you worried that you've hurt resale more than you've saved? Hat's off to you all the same. | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
Junior Member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 220 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Ernie, I don't even own a Ferrari, yet I'm assisting with the repair of a boxer  I love working on cars, that is most of the fun for me. Enjoy the experience! James | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 822 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well there you have it. All I will say is that there is something special about owning a Ferrari. But there is something even more special about not only owning a Ferrari but knowing how to fix it with your own hands. I once remeber someone posting a thread titled "Real Men change their own timing belts". I know for a fact that I can change mine. As far as not wanting to do it because your time is more important. I can respect that. But here is the differance. I know truley what it takes, you only know what you have been told. If I decide to have someone else work on it, I will know for certain if I am being taken or not. You still will only know what you have been told. I'm just a fellow owner that has seen the light and I'm trying to shed it on you. When I was just out of high school I worked for a few different service stations. I KNOW that people get sold things that they really don't need to have done, or things that cost more. This is especially the case with Ferrari's. I'm just trying to save you guys money. But my advice is falling on def ears. So spend away boys. Hey since you fellas don't seem to mind giving your money away, how about sending a few thousand bucks my way. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1808 Registered: 11-2001 |
ernie - i'd LOVE to do my own work. id' have a blast investing in the tools and time to learn about all this stuff, and take care of my cars myself. but as tyler points out, time is money and even at these stupid prices, it would not be a responsible use of my time. i'd like to teach science and math to middle-school kids too, but i don't do that either. when i'm retired, i'll teach and maybe fix my own ferraris! until then, i've got a capitalist migraine to feed ;-) all in all, $5000 for a major every five years is not a lot of money in my book for the major maintenance of a supercar. doody. | ||
| Ermin Trevisan (Trevi)
Junior Member Username: Trevi Post Number: 191 Registered: 5-2003 |
ernie despite of all your arguments, which may be technically reasonable, i would never ever buy a used ferrari, which was maintained by the owner itself, except the owner is a qualified mechanic, i know him personally for years and he has done successful work on other non-owned ferraris in the past. trevi | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1427 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think Tyler's sentiments resonate with others, myself included. --Dan | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Intermediate Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 1047 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ernie, the dealers get paid even if it is warranty work. They just get paid from the manufacturer instead of the consumer. I can't speak for everyone, but I believe in taking cars to the dealer for work because my time is valuable to me. It simply is not worth the savings(to me) to spend my time fiddling with it in the garage. Also, I believe that people who do a specific function over and over again become very good and familiar with it. The experienced mechanic might recognize many additional problems(or problems to be) that I would not. Basically it's worth it to me to have an expert opinion even if it costs more. It's about my peace of mind and keeping my spare time free, not about being scared. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 821 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hahahaaaaa, Oh thats to funny. I guess the reason they call these cars "exotic" is because someone already had "idiotic" copy written. LOL. | ||
| James Adams (Madmaxx)
Junior Member Username: Madmaxx Post Number: 217 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Ernie, Due to copyright laws, we can no longer allow you to use the phrase "Ferrari did not design the car practically. Nothing is user friendly....Even though they aren't user friendly, it still is not as bad as it is made out to be.". This is because We, Lotus Cars, have trademarked the phrases "did not design the car practically" and "Nothing is user friendly". We invented those remarks, and thus are subject to use by Lotus owners only. Due to these copyrights, we ask that Ferrari not be used in the same sentance. Thank You, Lotus | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 820 Registered: 11-2001 |
"It's not about being sissies, but much more about caution" "Doing stuff on your own will void any goodwill in treating any out-of-warranty failures" "not only do I not trust myself enough, but should anything happen" It is completely about being scared. This is what I was talking about when I said that you guys scare yourselves into paying out the ass at the dealer. "Out of warranty" and "goodwill" don't fool yourself. This is what the dealer prays for. Why? Because if it is out of warranty they don't have to fix it for FREE. This is exactly what they want, non warranty work, so that they reap the full financial benefit of the repair. I'm not talking about the mechanic doing the work, I'm talking about the dealer. This is were they make the majority of their money, on "Non-Warranty" work. So quit fooling yourself with dillusions. "caution" Let me tell you about caution. After I have checked, double checked, and tripple check, I go back and double check, the tripple check. Then after I have done that I call and talk to, not one, not two, but three different people, who work on Ferrari's, to make sure I haven't over looked anything. One of them has been working on Ferrari's since the 1970's, and another source used to work on the turbo charged Formula 1 Ferrari's, when they raced in Long Beach. Then I go back and check it again just to make sure it is still how I left it. No I'm not exagerating, I really do that. "we are talking about 'full majors' not 'just belts'". Well so am I. The engine is out of the car. The cam belt, tensioner, and idler bearing, as well as the support bracket that the idler is pressed into, have been replaced. The four front cam seals have been removed and new ones pressed in, as well as the rear cam seal on the cam on banks 1-4 of the engine. All four front cam oil rings have been changed. The rear housing for the fuel injection timing has been removed inspected and cleaned. The water pump and termostat has been inspected. All thirty two valves have been individually checked for proper clearance, twenty seven of which needed adjusting to be put back into the proper specs. this mean removing the valve shims and replacing them with the proper ones. I'll stop there and won't even start on the air conditioning, breaks, and cooling system. So I know what I am saying when I am talking about a "Full Major" and not just "the belts". My point is this. You can work on your own car. Fear is the only thing holding you back. But if you wanna keep making excuses as to why you shouldn't, "Oh no, (gasp)........but I'm not factory certifed", you will continue to have your money taken from you like trying to hold water in your hand. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1423 Registered: 9-2002 |
I agree with Ze Shark - not only do I not trust myself enough, but should anything happen, you always have that 'goodwill' with the dealership / service center to fix things. That counts for a lot. I'm gonna give a 30k breakdown now that we're getting technical about it. This is what apparently is being done to my car. Of course, prices are going to be the usual marked up nonsense, but this will give you an idea. Labor: 130 * 26 = 3380. Parts: 2 Oil Filters 12 qts Shell 5W40 2 Copper Washers 4 bottles Shell Donax 10 bottles Shell Gear Oil (75/90) 1 Comp Air Filter 2 Air Filters 2 Fuel Filters 2 bottles of Shellzone Coolant 1 bottle of Donax Shell Dexron III (?) 2 Gaskets 2 more gaskets of a different kind 4 sealing rings 7 O-rings 2 Gaskets 1 Belt 1 Belt 12 Sparkplugs 2 Timing belts 2 'Idler Bring Kit 1 Pulley 1 Bracket' (?) All in all, those parts come to (again, book value at full mark-up w/o discount, etc.): $2078.85 Add the labor, and you've got $5458.85, and so $5500. --Dan | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
New member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2003 |
Ernie, It's not about being sissies, but much more about caution. Aside from the skills, equipment and time, doing stuff on your own will void about void any goodwill in treating out-of-warranty failures. These cars being what they are, I think that's a major plus. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1805 Registered: 11-2001 |
i think we're all talking about "full majors" not just "belts". doody. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 655 Registered: 9-2002 |
Dan..At the begining of the summer I did a full major on a 456gt. The cars are very similar in design,as they are basicly the same engine. I took me no more then 6 hours to have the belt service part of the job complete. This includes new tentioner bearings, cam cover gaskets, side intake plenum gaskets(must be removed to access cam covers), t-stat,flush and refill then bleed cooling system. I also did a full brake service, flushed brake fluid, and a complete mechanical fitness inspection. The bill was approx 4500. But I live in canada so about 6000 in canadian funds. Basicly it comes down to what they are doing for the service. If all they are doing is changing belts,then this is not a complete 30k. There are other things that should be done aswell to the belt change. | ||
| Ernie (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 819 Registered: 11-2001 |
You guys need to quite being such sissies. I have a 348 that I am doing the "engine out" major service on all by myself. I have never, I repeat, NEVER done work on a Ferrari ever before in my life. As a matter of fact this is the first time I have ever done something like this. Yes there is a learning curve. From what I have learned I can tell you this, that here in the U.S. we get ripped off big time for parts. It is shameful the way Ferrari owners in the United States are treated. Especially since we are their BIGGEST CUSTOMERS! Ferrari did not design the car practically. Nothing is user friendly. That is why the dealers charge more. Even though they aren't user friendly, it still is not as bad as it is made out to be. But the number one thing that I have learned is, IT STILL IS JUST AN ENGINE! You guys scare the crap out of yourselves and as a result pay out of your ass to have the car fixxed at the dealer. If the engine does not have to come out of the car I really don't see how they can justify charging anything over $1000. How do I know this well because like I said I am now working on my own car. After having spent in the neighborhood of $9,000.00 to have someone else work on it, I finally desided to start investing money in tools and learn about the car. There is a huge wealth of information and people on this site that you can learn from, for get this FREE! Imagine that. You guys really crack me up. So like I said quit being a bunch of wussies, get some tools, a shop manual, and work on your car. This is the only way we are gonna win with these cars. Honestly they really aren't that big a deal. This isn't to say that they can't be a pain in the ass, but then again every make has it's problems, Ferrari just seems to have more. Non the less put a wrench in your hand and turn it. Right to tighten and left to loosen. There you just had your first leason. How freekin hard was that? Now start wrenching you big babies. | ||
| Jeffrey Robbins (Teachdna)
Junior Member Username: Teachdna Post Number: 126 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ferrari service is ALWAYS "unexplainably" more expensive. But if you think about it, it becomes at least a little more palatable. 1. Labor. At authorized dealers and experienced independents, labor can run $90-150/hr. Usually it's half to two-thirds that at other places; even the high end mass produced car places (Porsche, BMW) will "only" charge $60-75-at least in the Midwest. Talented mechanics are always in demand and the dealers will pay them what they're worth (I hope). 2. Economy of scale. There is none! The 550 is largely hand built and the parts are pretty expensive. Although some parts are standard and out of the bin, there are many boutique parts that are ordered with the corresponding 100% markup. 3. Overhead. Even if the service center does only 2 cars a day instead of 20, they have fixed costs. Heat, lighting, rent, depreciation still costs them the same, whether they do 2 or 20 cars. So the costs can't be distributed over the kind of volume that normal car places have and must be captured from a smaller customer base. Yes, the Ferrari dealers obviously handle other kinds of cars, but those usually aren't high volume either. 4. Of course, all this is a rationalization on my part to make me feel better as I still know in my heart of hearts that it just shouldn't cost that much! But, what are the options? Take it to a jiffy lube? I have a talented mechanic in town who works on high end cars but he admits that he's never done a 550 major and while he's probably up to the task, I'm not enthusiastic about using my car as a testbed. There just aren�t very many alternatives, as I�m not up to using my own engine to beta-test my mechanical skills-particularly since I�ve never worked on a Ferrari. I suppose I could ask their mechanics to give me lessons. I�m sure they would oblige | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1422 Registered: 9-2002 |
Tom, the parts are pretty cheap, actually. I honestly can't figure out where the 26 hours of labor are. --Dan | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 654 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ze Shark...The parts are very expensive. If you are going to do the job with new tensioner bearings, and removing the cam covers to correctly set the cams,then the price does creep up to around 4k. The job itself is not difficult as you said the engine stays in the car. Much less time consuming then the 8 cylinder cars. | ||
| Ze Shark (Ze_shark)
New member Username: Ze_shark Post Number: 34 Registered: 7-2003 |
4 to 6K ? You guys are getting milked. While prospecting for a 550 here, dealer told me that belt replacement is way cheaper than on V8s due to the fact that engine does not have to be taken off. Belt said to be 500$ and a few hours of labour, less than 1K total. What else do they do to reach 5K$ ? Brakes all around ? | ||
| Jeffrey Robbins (Teachdna)
Junior Member Username: Teachdna Post Number: 125 Registered: 9-2001 |
That's one of the pleasures of this board- you guys are great to respond so quickly and, what's even better, I can show this thread to my wife when she complains about yet another maintenance bill. Thanks! | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1409 Registered: 9-2002 |
Doody, I can't sit down right now... --Dan | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Intermediate Member Username: Doody Post Number: 1796 Registered: 11-2001 |
i've gotten two quotes in the MA area at the $4,500 mark, and in both cases they indicated a willingness to be flexible on the price depending upon calendar scheduling. of course it's all the annoying "extras" that can make you walk funny.... doody. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1408 Registered: 9-2002 |
Mine is being done as we speak for 5500. --Dan | ||
| Leonard Renick (Broomhilda)
New member Username: Broomhilda Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2003 |
I have had 3 quotes here in Calif. for my 30,000 service ...all from authorized dealers...$7,500,$5,500, and $6,000. Ugh! | ||
| Jeffrey Robbins (Teachdna)
Junior Member Username: Teachdna Post Number: 124 Registered: 9-2001 |
Well, it's been about 5.5 years (it's a '97) and I've decided that during the annual maintenance, I'll have the major done. In addition to all of the usual fluids being changed, they'll do the belts as well. The service department quoted a price of about $3500 and I was wondering how this price compares to prices quoted to others who have recently had the Maranello major done? |