| Author | Message | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Going back to the mid-engine car oversteer behavior, I was on one of my runs of the Santa Monica mountains down here in L.A. this weekend, and I came to an almost 180 degree turn, increasing elevation and barely any camber. I braked hard before going into the turn and shifted into second for a fast takeoff. I guess I was trying too hard because the TRs rear end came loose like never before, and it took me a few back and forth steering corrections to get it in line again. I did let off the gas and that seemed to help, I did also slightly apply the brakes but I did not feel that I got positive feedback out of that. Having no power steering I had to steer into the slide and then let go off the steering wheel (wheels automatically return to dead-center) so that I can switch fast enough to start steering into the opposite direction as the rear was coming around the other way. It took me about 4 to 5 such sequences to get it under control. The questions I have for the real pros out there are: a. Having to let go of the steering wheel seemed natural to be able to steer into the slide fast enough, but was it the best thing to do? b. I did not think keeping the gas on was the right thing to do since it was what started the whole process in the first place, would it have been better to reduce gas input without letting go completely? c. When, if ever, should brakes be used in an oversteer case like this one? d. Ultimately, what is the driving school-approved approach to getting a case like this under control a lot quicker? Thanks for any input, Caribe. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
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since people were talking about Audi quattro - be careful of over relying on it. I was driving mine to work the other day and came to a great left right chicange (on a one way street with two lanes - its great- I try to hit it at about 40 - its posted 15) and even though it was dry I must have hit oil or the white painted line, the rear broke lose, I recovered but the front continued into a low curb, I was lucky only to give my front rim bad curb rash and a small amount on the rear rim -- all I could think is it is nice to learn these lessons in an audi rather than my ferrari. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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cooooooollllllllll Mine was actually a full spin. o Karts is such a great way to learn how easy it is to lose control. Too fast into a corner...was my motto that day! | ||
| Joseph Buffa (Buffa27)
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OK Martin, you started it. Here is my 348LM sliding through turn 2 at Talladega Grand Prix Raceway.  | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Thats how you look when you do a tail slide on a go kart at the new "Martin" chicane in Miami.  | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
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Driving a Ferrari tend to make you pay much more attention to others around you. Basically, you become a very defensive driver. I see a lot of people swerve into my lane on the highways and not looking at the traffic in front of them. People drive like crazy trying to chase you down to have a better look. Soccer moms in mini-vans trying to race you. That's only half of what happens on the road and I drive a BLACK Ferrari (stealthier, I thought). The rear-ended accidents are probably caused by people trying to keep pace with a Ferrari. As we all know, most Ferraris have much better brakes than ordinary cars. So the stopping distance is rather short. Other drivers would have very little time to react. I usually try to keep plenty of space in front and behind my car. If someone try to pester me from behind, I just let them pass by. As for the car swaping ends, it's probably more difficult to do that in the newer cars. The 360 have understeer dialed in and give plenty of warning if the rear breaks loose. Also, traction control keeps you from making silly mistakes. You could, however, do some cool tailslides with the traction control turned off (not good for the tires or blood pressure). | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I had a guy come up behind me a couple months ago at a track light. I don't get it because the light was red for like a minute already and everyone was just sitting there (I was the only one in the left hand lane) and he came up on me and I was watching him in my mirror get closer and closer, so then I started inching up slowly and he stood on the brakes locking the tires up which was interesting. I had the thing tached to like 4000 at that point because if he kept sliding a little more I wasn't planning on sticking around to see it. Luckily he stopped in time. I had another case with a BMW about a month ago when everyone was stopped getting off 95 south onto 287 South. I was the last one in line and he did the same thing not paying attention. Then it dawned on him that we were stopped and he stood on the brakes, I started to move out of the way onto the shoulder in case he couldn't stop, but luckily he did. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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I do believe that most cars are being hit in traffic not due to driver error. If you loose it in a curve your damage is not just rear but side as well, right Larry? :-) I see a lot of people in the rear view that are dreaming and press their foreheads on the windshield trying to read what car that is. You know the funny faces :-O, sideways looking. Most people do not pay 100% attention to the road anymore. The beauty of the car is its worst enemy on the roads. People drive closer, speed up next to you and do funny things to catch a glimps. I think this is why we should show these cars as often as possible when asked. This way we can get people more familiar with them. my 2c. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I forgot, try and do it with your tires cold, they'll slide easier. And you'll see why power steering is so important when you try and wrench the 308 back to going straight with no power steering. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I think Ferraris get rear ended too because they stop a lot faster than almost anything else. If a Ferrari driver panic stopped there would be few cars that could stop in time to not hit him, and few drivers to get out of the situation without hitting him. The Ferrari can definitely be handled. Go into an open parking lot sometime get going in second gear a little start making a turn and then get hard on the brakes without dumping the clutch, when you feel the front end start to get heavy and the rear light hit the gas and you'll see how it wants to come out, then just work it back in with either the gas or letting off depending on how far out you are. It just takes a little getting used to. Ferrari actually set up the braking on the 308 (I'm assuming other cars as well) so that it would be harder to get the rear end out of shape because they understand that most people driving the cars aren't going to be able to handle it in a slide. PS. If you think a Ferrari has bad snap oversteer, drive a Porsche (not mid, but true rear engine car). | ||
| david schirmer (David)
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Interesting comments regarding mid engine cars and controlling them in the curves. I have fortunately not had the experience of getting too wild on a turn and losing the rear end. I do know that when I drive my 308 that when you get on the gas it really seems to tuck into the turns. Sometimes I have experienced a bit of understeer and I actually let off the gas a bit and that seems to get more weight on the front end and as a result a little more bite. Probably not good practice for you racing drivers out there, but it does keep me out of the ditches. Regarding the quattro. I also drive an S4 every now and then, and the all wheel drive is a different animal entirely. I find that you can take turns completely differently. That car can hold the road! It is an amazing feeling of confidence on wet pavement and other bad surfaces. On both cars the suspension has been set up well. It is amazing what a difference a small tweak can make. Come to think of it, we don't really have much conversation about that aspect of our cars... | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
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A long, long time ago in a different world, I owned a used Saab - one of the first in this country. It was front wheel drive, doors opened from the front, what looked like the hood release was the starter, auto clutch, burned on a mixture of oil and gas, etc. Used to have fun taking it up to the frozen rivers in upstate NY around Watertown. Race on the ice and jank up the emergency brake. It would spin around its front wheels. If go into a curve too fast, give a touch of brakes to break loose the rear and it would line up on its front wheels (at least almost). It seems like a Ferrari would be the opposite. If it started to spin, the weight in the rear would want to continue the spin. Also power going to the rear wheels would want to make it spin. So it seems like the best thing would be to back off on the power. This would appear to give more chance to recover. And steer to the inside of the spin or to the direction the back wants to go. On brakes not for sure. If the back is more powerful, then it seems that brakes would help. If front more powerful, then no brakes. If both same, then it seems like brakes would help some. But like a tail dragger airplane, if it goes too far - it is gone. No chance to recover due to the weight distribution. It seems like a Ferrari would be almost like a kid's tricycle pushed backwards. Basically unstable (due to weight distrubition), but the Ferrari can be controlled in the right hands. Am I right in all this? Dave Wapinski | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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With mid and rear engined cars you have what is referred to as throttle off oversteer. When you lift the throttle in a high speed turn, the rear end wants to continue at the same rate of speed due to interia of the rear weight bias on the design. While you can often control it by keeping your foot in the throttle, that is easier said than done. Your immediate reation is to lift throttle and apply the brakes which is the worst thing to do. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
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wont letting off the gas just take more wieght off the back and make it spin? This is how i learned to drive my front wheel drive honda, stay on the gas through corners, and SOMETIMES flick the brakes to get the ass back in line. I guess with a rwd car if you stay on the gas, you will also spin. With my audi, if i come in too fast for a corner or an unfamiliar corner decreases in radius (i dont speed on unfamiliar roads)i just stand on the gas and quattro pulls me out. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
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Dave: The mid engine cars are tricky to drive at the limit. Most people who buy these cars are not expert drivers, but think that they are. The 308 through the 355 have a rear weight bias, and when the limit is reached, the back end starts to slide, especially when power is applied. Most drivers, when that occurs, take their foot off the gas. The consequences of that behavior is that if the driver is lucky, the rear end snaps back and they go on their way. If the slide angle is too great, the vehicle ends up going backwards into what ever happens to be in the way. That's why the hits appear to be from the back. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
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It seems most of the Ferrari wrecks are hits from the rear. I cannot imagine many cars running into the rear of a Ferrari. So do people lose control and the car swaps ends due to the weight in the rear? |