| Author | Message | ||
| John Moretti (Moretti)
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Well we thought similar thoughts here in Australia so one of the guys here wrote to someone who would know: From: Herbert Appleroth [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, 15 November 2001 2:07 To: '[email protected]' Subject: Maserati Spyder V8 Importance: High G'day Mark Long time no speak. I hope you are well. I also hope you enjoyed the motorshow. Whilst I am not the most technical/mechanical person on our staff, I have been involved right the way through with the development of the new Maserati Spyder. So I am responding to your email sent to Lenn. Could you also please forward the details of your tech talk chatroom as you mentioned at the show. Firstly, Maserati and Ferrari are now regarded as one company (has been for the past 3 years), and for this reason we do not say this part is Maserati technology or this is a Ferrari part/technology. It is all one. The person responsible for the new 4.2 litre V8 was one Sig. Maurizio Rioli. He is responsible for all engine development for Maserati, Ferrari and Scuderia Ferrari F1. The new V8 is not based on the 360, but from the latest technology from F1. It is the natural transition. Whether this new V8 forms the basis to the next generation Ferrari V8 vehicle, is something that has not been officially communicated to the wider community so I am not able to confirm or deny. All engines are now manufactured at Maranello, and a new engine assembly facility is due for completion in August 2002. This is where all Maserati and Ferrari engines will be made. However, all Maserati engines (dyno) are tested at Modena(Maserati factory) prior to installation. The facility at Modena is state of the art and is completely new. The Maserati V8 differs from the 360 Modena V8 in most areas, however some technologies have been shared. The major differences are (1). The engine block is completely different. Both are dry sump, but the Maserati is now like an F1 engine with the oil/water and scavenge pump now completely seperate to the block. The new V8 is what they call a virgin block. The 360 has these elements integral. (2). The head on the new V8 is 4 valve not 5 valve as in the 360 Modena. The main reason for this is the new emission regulations. The 360 was re leased before this new reg came into force. (3) Both have continuous variable valve timing, however the intake runners on the new V8 are fixed. The 360 is variable. These fixed plenthums allow a better tumble coefficient as well as produce a great deal more torque. The Maserati V8 produces 10hp less than the 360, yet 21% more torque or 451Nm vs 373Nm in the 360. As the Maserati is still regarded as a GT car, torque and driveability are the key goals. This allows the Spyder to have better lap times at Fiorano than the 360 Spyder, even with a significant weight disadvantage. You can imagine what the next generation Maserati Coupe will perform like with over 120 kgs shed!!!!!!! (4) The Maserati V8 has a newly designed oil/heat exchanger which like the 360 is integrated in the V of the block. This new design allows for better warm up conditions. It also has better thermal stability and packaging. (5) A great deal of effort has been given in choosing construction material for all components in an effort to reduce the height of the new engine as well as the weight. Weight has been reduced significantly. (6) The gearbox is a twin clutch plate version of the 360, which allows smooth use of the extra torque generated. Also, the setup of the clutch up the front with the engine points to possible use for other high torque engines (V8's or V12's). In using the new cambio corsa (F1) transmission with a twin clutch plate, sees significant advances in smooth takeoffs as well as speed of gear changes. (7) Gear changes now only take 80 milliseconds vs 150 in the 360. The automatic functions now is also much smoother due to the twin plate and that the electronics are two generations ahead of the 360 Modena. (8) The clutch is attached directly to the engine, which also allows the same setup to be used in a mid engine setup. Read into this as much as you need. (9) The suspension system using the new Skyhook continuous adaptive damping control, is 10 times faster than any system fitted to a production car. Another cross polination from F1. This will be used in future Ferrari models as well. After driving the new Spyder on the limit for 2 days outside Bologna, the new setup is just first rate. A full suspension travel now takes just 25 milliseconds. I hope this has answered your questions. As Maserati and Ferrari are marketed and packaged as two complete brands, you must understand that people get very attached (emotional) to one, the other or both brands. This also sees people speculate on what is the real answer. The two brands have different brand statements and captive audiences. But the same technology. Just depends which model is released at what time. You never know what they will come up with next. They showed me in January this year what technology they have in their war chest after so many years in F1. Bit by bit this will be commercialised into product. One thing is for sure, Ferrari Group will be, or are already, the produ cers of the world's best sportscars, GT's, Spyders and engines in the world. Keep a hold onto your cheque books, because the next 5 years is going to be fun. Give me a call if you have any other queries. Best regards Herbert Appleroth ****************************************** Hope this eases the pain  | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
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You guys can always get a vintage Ferrari if you want cam chains that bad! But believe me, changing them is a pain. On the 206/246 dino motor there are two chains - one for each cam set. If you need to change the chains or pull the heads or even retorque the head bolts (half of which reside under the intake cams), to reassemble you have to remove the gears from the camshafts (4), put the cams in place with their marks lined up and hold them in place with visegrips (or perhaps some magical tool that only old-time dealers have), then work the chains onto the gears, slide the gears onto the cams (not easy since there is not much slack in the chains), put in the dowels between gear and cam, and bolt the gears to the cams. I don't know what the belt system is like on the modern Ferrari's but I'm assuming that since you can slide a belt onto a toothed gear from the side (unlike a chain which must go on from above the gear), that there is enough slack in the belt to replace the belt with the gears on the cams. Much easier job... And surely they have a much more reliable tensioning device than the old-school cars. Gotta love the sounds of chains though! -Rich | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
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I heard in car and driver that the ferrari F1 engine one or 2 years agowas spinning over 20,000rpm. | ||
| Hubert O. (Hubert)
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F1 motors, at least all of the 2001 powerplants have pneumatic valve acuation and traditional camshafts w/ the pneumatic valve acuation system that eliminates/reduces reciprocating mass in the valvetrain, and reduces friction losses which saps power. F1 engines usually max ~ 16,700rpm's, there has been talk of using electro-magnetic valve acuation and the loss of camshafts in order to lessen the reciprocating mass, and hence allow the motor to rev higher; hence generate more power. This is rumored to have been experimented w/ by Renault, but has been denied by others because of weight that the system would add to the head of the motor. Renault is re-viving it's full works team in the 2002 season, which will hopefully, see a more successful debut of their new 111 degree RS21 engine. Also, w/ respect to cam belts vs. camchains, I would have to say that cam chains are more durable, and usually [if manufactured out of the apt material and machined correctly] need far less attention than their kevlar reinforced belt counterparts. For example, Honda has switched to cam chains, after using belts for years and years, in their new generation of cars including the s2000, which in and of itself speaks to the utility of chains over belts! Just my two cents though... | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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I think F1 engines still have camshafts. The pneumatic stuff replaces the valve return spring -- giving a much higher valve/"spring" natural frequency (less "mass" at the same stiffness) in order to keep it above the valve operating frequency (RPM/2) and prevent floating. I'm not sure what the typical F1 camshaft drive method is, but just because F1 uses something doesn't mean it's necessarily the best choice for a road car. IMHO saying cam chains are better than cam belts (or the other way around) is like saying Marelli is better than Lucas (or the other way around) -- they both have their flaws (and about equal lifetime costs IMHO). | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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F1 engines now use pneumatically-operated valves, instead of camshafts/cam belts. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Along with Franks thoughts on belts...Do F1 engines run belts? They rev insanely high (18000rpm). | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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It's different with them using Fiat parts though for windshield wiper stalks, directional controls, etc because they're such different cars. I guess I just think that Maserati would be stepping on Ferrari's toes a little bit with them using the same. I wonder what the Maserati die hards think about the new Ferrari ruling of it? ...although I guess they're just happy to have cars again. It would be cool though if having Maserati would help them one day break away from Fiat and be on their own again. Back to the 60s...I wouldn't be born for over 20 years. I see what you're saying about the need for a Mojo check though, if only my car wasn't apart right now and I was home. Only one way to solve this, watching Austin Powers and some Magnum pi before I go to lunch. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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And how will Ferrari justify keeping cam belts in its cars with the new Maserati engine have cam chains. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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FYI, Ferraris have always had interchangable parts with other cars including Fiats. My 1967 330GTC had several interior parts from Lancias of the era. My 328 had an AC system from GM and the AC/heater controls were from Fiat.Generally, only the drive train and body parts were exclusive Ferrari parts. | ||
| Allyn (Allyn)
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It's interesting reading all this concern for Ferrari messing with your 'mystic'. Maybe you'll need to return to he 60's to find your Mojo? Future Ferraris will still be fast, overly complicated, beautiful to see and hear, break a lot be and very rare. I wouldn't worry so much. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Yeah, I wouldn't care if they dramatically changed the 8 cylinder cars, examples like a larger lower revving engine, etc (although I think that personally they should stick to what's been good to them). Just the whole mixNmatch thing that Martin was saying. They're Ferrari, not Ford. I would hope they have this figured out by now. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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What happen with the "Ferrari building engines and attaching wheels to them" philosophy? First, Ferraris are really Fiats (God helps us, it almost sounds like spagetti rockets ala Rice rocket approach), and now they are also interchanging engines with lesser cars. I am glad I got a TR, which for all practical purposes seems to be one of the last true Ferraris out there. What happened with the evolution of Formula 1 technology into the production cars? Will that phase away also with the Maseratis and the Fiats of the world making cheaper and interchangeable parts for Ferrari? Ferrari is starting to sound like a regular car manufacturer which most of us, I believe, wanted to avoid. I believe most Ferrari enthusiast pay the higher tab because the cars are special from conception to production. Because they are the tamed siblings of their F1 counterparts, but now they are becoming regular production cars that interchange parts with cheaper model lines, but which commands a higher premium to acquire. It is paying for a name, paying for a car without the substance. I don't know about the rest of you, but I could care less for a car that has no soul, and that is exactly what Ferraris will become is this becomes a reality. ...Where is that Z06 brochure? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Doesn't sound right to me either. No matter what they say! Just is not right. It becomes a Kit Car like that if anyone asks me. I understand the corporate strategy behind it but on the other hand I do not. It tarnishes a brand name known throughout the world for its uniqueness to be another "Ford/Jaguar/Chrysler/BMW"-mixNmatch. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
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Bret, I think Ferrari bought Maserati to expand its product line, so they could sell, sedans, wagons, & less expensive GT cars without messing with the Ferrar name. The 4.2 in the Maser spyder uses the same engine architecture as the 3.6 Ferrari engine. the 360M will get the larger 4.2 engine w/ 5 valve heads & more power than the Maser has | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Ferrari seems to be getting more and more stupid as they go on. I don't want the same engine as in a Maserati, that's why I buy a Ferrari. I don't like Montezemolo's policy or part interchangng, it used to be just between models (which was pretty much alright) but now it's gonna be between makes too. And an engine nonetheless. Did Ford ever buy Ferrari like they wanted to?...It seems that's the way they're going. They don't have to be efficient and sell more cars that cost less to make, they charge a quarter million dollars a car. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
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I think he said something like 380hp and that it was a base engine. concerned that it might not sound good, I asked him if it would still sound like a ferrari and he said yes. Apparently maserati flew him to italy to drive one of the new maserati spiders. | ||
| Luigi Gatti (Luigi)
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Does this mean that in the future Ferrari's V8 engine will have only 4 valves per cylinder like the 4.2 in the Maserati? I hope they don't change the power delivery and sound of the engine too much! | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
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it definatrly has chains. i was at miller today and bailey (a great salesman). he said that engine might become the base engine in the 360 in a few years | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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And the new Maserati has cam chains, not belts. | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
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Actually, the new 4.2 liter Maserati engine is brand new and will be the basis for the next generation V8 in Ferrari models. I am told that it is of modular design and permits various component changes for different tuning stages. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
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Michael,The 360's have 40 valves now. | ||
| Michael (Mtabije)
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I was reading the Dec issue of Automobile magazine and it featured the new Maserati that shares the similar engine with the 360 Modena. There was a brief mention about a new 360 Modena M with 40 valves. Anybody have more information on this? |