| Author | Message | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
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There is a place called AMG in southern California but it's not related to Mercedes that do dot conversions to US specs. They have in a large facility some of the worlds most spectacular exotics I have ever seen in real life. I saw an F50 in Yellow! Bugatti Porsche 959 tons of 360's and 355's with clear euro bumper lights which looks cool and much much more. They told me that these cars can be purchased for almost half the price of US prices which was interesting news. I've seen some of the things they did to do the conversion like cutting squares to put bumper lenses in and tearing out the whole interior of an F50! It's amazing to see these cars apart. You gotta see this facility. They are in Santa Ana, CA 3231 S Standard Ave. If you are nearby there you should stop by and check it out, these guys got connections to getting some hot rides and can tell you what exactly they do to make them street legal. From looking at the euro cars, I like them much better than US spec cars without a doubt! see for yourself... Keep it real.... | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Hey Mark, got a Sister? if you do she should get half. I'd marry her and the F50 gets to be an F25 for you and an F25 for her. Then I I'll get half of that F-25, which makes it an F12.5.... ...F12.5? na, forget it | ||
| Mark (Study)
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Okay FNA? What do I do? I live in France and just got a F50 from my Dad's brother that passed away. I have to move back to the USA because we can't keep our branch open in France anymore since the death in the family. Is FNA saying I can't bring my F50 with me? I own it. Its mine.  ( I wish I had this problem.. but you see my logic?) | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I think the people were very lucky that were in accidents on this site. As far as in an accident with another car, the Ferrari's just gonna wedge under, especially with an SUV. I know that my 308 at least is not safe, nothing about it is safe. I think Ferraris are track situation safe, not necessarily safe like a Volvo, MB, or BMW is safe. Just simple physics will dictate that driving any low, light, overpowered car is going to be much more dangerous than a normal car. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Bret, I think that we have some people here that can attesat the Ferrari is a safe car. Both of them US cars BTW! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Thanks Jon, as much as I agree with free buisness enterprise and the the MS case is vague, it clearly raises a point on if we want to subject the customer to having no options but to buy THIS and therefore giving one party the option of fixing a price. That is as bad a oil companies fixing prices (which is illegal) to extort more money from the public. Jon, you said it so well: "Think of it this way. What if you were only allowed to buy your car from a dealer in your state. Would this prop up prices, damn right it would. Suddenly your supply of cars has narrowed considerably and this is what FNA is trying to do. " I would go even further and say not in your state but only the one dealer in your town, because that is the only option! It is FNA or...nothing. I can take this further: United Airlines whines and from today on United is the only carrier to be allowed to fly to Hawaii, does that change your price? In order to go to Disney World you have to take a shuttle bus from Disney for $ 100 a person. Fair? Only whites are allowed to sit in a bus in the front...sounds familiar? It is what it is: DISCRIMINATION but in business we seem to accept it as "business practice". Sorry, having my competitors legs broken because he was selling houses in my neighborhood is not what I consider good business practice. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I have read briefly about this topic and there are definite differences between the two cars, but I for one don't really care about them and would gladly take a euro if FNA and the DOT weren't such a pain (because of them I would only go US). I think a euro is more of the intentions of the company than a US car. My only point is that this whole thing is just stupid, anyone who thinks that they're safe in a Ferrari, regardless of how it is set up, is in for a rude awakening. But, that's how the modern world is. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
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This issue is money and dealers! Nothing else. The car was developed as a world car. Minor and very minor parts differences are meaningless. The europeans now have there own air quality rules to abide with. Ferrari cannot develop 2 completely different cars. Far too expensive. The dealers have bitched and Ferrari is trying to honor its dealer agreements and limits sales via the dealer route, ensuring new car sales are protected for its dealer network. If you think its anything else please inform us. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
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First some clarifications on my views: 1) I have no problem with the waiting period for cars. If you don't want to wait pay up in the secondary market. 2) I also don't have a problem if dealers want to charge what the market bears (either on first sales or used sales). A free market is created when supply and demand create the price people are willing to pay 3) What the hell do "saftey" concerns and liability have to do with the importation of fully fledged Challenge cars which are neither street registerable nor street legal. This is clearly hypocritcal when I can import a vintage 250 SWB race car built for the Euro market but I can't do so with a newer race car like a 355 or 360 Challenge. 4) What right does FNA have to ban aftermarket or non-authorized Ferrari dealers from selling non-US Ferrari parts, especailly on Challenge cars. Martin had raised a good point. Why can't someone who wishes to import a non-US Ferrari simply sign legal documents to absolve FNA from any liability as to the saftey and operation of the car and any warranty issues. Being an economist I also agree with Steve M. to a certain point that there is no legal barrier to someone starting another supercar company. Distinctions need to be made between natural monopolies (those monopolies created by a company who makes a superior product that no one else can duplicate) and the other sort of monopoly (a company uses unfair business tactics or gets legislation passed to bar entry into their business). Ferrari has built it's business on the first example. They simply produce a product so unique and storied with history that it can't be duplicated by someone else. I am sure the car can be duplicated but the history and passion it provokes can't be duplicated therefore Ferrari has a fairly won natural monopoly. However, that being said FNA is trying to create legal barriers to competition from other non-US Ferrari sources and this is not Capitalism. Think of it this way. What if you were only allowed to buy your car from a dealer in your state. Would this prop up prices, damn right it would. Suddenly your supply of cars has narrowed considerably and this is what FNA is trying to do. The saftey issue can be argued from a liability standpoint but FNA can simply register the required paperwork with the FEDS stating that they do not support warranty's on non-US cars, do not accept any liability on these cars, and will not allow authorized dealers to work on these cars. That is within their right and not a monopoly move. However not allowing the importation of non-US cars and parts into the country to other sources is a clear monopoly move of the wrong kind. Also if FNA does not want to service non-US cars or provide parts that is also their business. But banning the importation of any non-US parts through customs is clearly wrong. If I some aftermarket company wants to take up this market or as other have stated you can find sources outside the US for parts FNA shouldn't have any influence over this. Here are some further clarifications from the article I posted at the beginning of the thread: FNA states (all from the article): There are 229 different parts on the 360. There are 339 diffeent parts on the 550. All of these according to FNA are related to vehicle saftey. FNA states that non-US cars cannot be "readily altered to comply with apllicable motor vehicle saftey standards in the US." Example of difference is the 550 roof structure which is heavilly reinforced on US models. My bottom line opinion on non-US cars and FNA is: 1)FNA has every right to deny any warranty claims on non-US cars. 2) FNA has very right to refuse to allow authorized dealers to service them or order non-US parts. 3) FNA should be able to obsolve themselves from any legal liability pertaining to the operation of non-US cars. 4) FNA HAS ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT WHATSOEVER to ban the importation of non-US Ferraris and parts to alternative non autorized Ferrari dealers for sale to US customers (assuming that the cars meet all federal, state and local saftey laws and requirements as pertaining to street cars). End of story. Regards, Jon Kofod | ||
| Jim Lang (Rochester0)
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Viken is ABSOLUTELY 100% CORRECT. There are between 200-300 parts/specs that are different b/w the euro and US. Please, call any authorized Ferrari dealership (not a grey market Ferrari dealer) and they will tell you the same thing. The problem with your analysis is that they are importing a product that was made to operate in Europe, not the US. Why should Ferrari take that risk? Doesn't matter how remote or minute the risk is, they are a business, not a charity for people who can't afford a US Ferrari at current market prices, and businesses look out for their own interests and MAKE MONEY. Ferrari is not preventing anyone from making their own product and distributing it as they see fit. This is entirely different than MSFT - which is crap as well. Microsoft - Let's see, someone makes a great product, everyone likes it, then greedy lawyers devise some scheme to make money for themselves and divide the other 60% among a billion people. Yeah, that is doing a lot to protect the consumer. And I'm a lawyer. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
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There are many interpretations of antitrust. I don't work for Microsoft but this whole thing about them being anti-competitive on Windows is really rediculous. Windows is not public property. It is a property of Microsoft. Therefore they have a monopoly on Windows like Ford have a monopoly on Thunderbirds. So it is reasonable to say that the company can exercise its full rights on what can and cannot be done to THEIR software. There are many, many people within Microsoft who are working daily to improve their products. Isn't it reasonable to assume that the company will protect its investments in product improvements from outsiders? Imagine if GM produces a 500 HP engine that can be fitted in a 360. Ferrari tell them to take a hike. GM then complains to the government that Ferrari is excluding them from installing the GM engines at the factory. Is it wrong for Ferrari to keep GM products out of the factory? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Out of my past. I was an importer of gray market cars from the US to Germany in the early 90s. I had a lawsuit with Toyota Germany and Mitsubishi Germany about imports. They wanted to stop me but they knew they could not. Their argument was that the public would think that because I advertiesed a Mitsubishi 3000GT VR4 the public would think this car is covered with the Mitsubishi of Germany warranty, which it is not. So from that day on we had to place in every ad that "This vehicle is not covered by warranty from Mitsubishi of Germany". Fair enough! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Paul, great thinking but you missed the point. FNA is not Ferrari (Ferrari Spa). FNA is the authorized importer. Ferrari Italy (to make a better understanding) has a contract with FNA in which they supply cars that FNA is allowed to sell in the USA. So do all other makes have their National Imporers. In turn FNA provided warranty for all product they sell to comply with State and Federal laws. Sometimes even more to please their customers. Ferrari is not keeping Ferraris out of the US buy shielding the market. FNA is trying to keep others from doing business by importing cars to their market. Microsoft is not keeping others from designing another form of "Windows" but is keeping others from being able to work the new software with Windows or other MS products. This is antitrust. If Ferrari Italy says we do not want any Ferraris being sold in the US, fine. It is their right. It is their product. But to have one importer (and guys FNA is nothing else but an importer) to block others from importing, that is wrong. I am not saying FNA has to facilitate or help or be helpfull in importing but they can not block it either. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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...and even if they would have to weld in bars as they used to and do whatever chnages they have to, they do not have to meet FNA regulations but EPA and DOT, federalized regulations. If FNA has a safety issue with conversions, raise the issue as such and the importers can change the conversion so it meets the FNA safety issue, if that is a valid issue as accepted by DOT/EPA. I am against allowing importers to get away with less than FNA does for their cars. Equal playing field. That is why they have to convert and they do. | ||
| Paul Cox (Pcox)
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Martin, I agree to a point. If you have ever checked the prices of American cars over seas. A Camaro in Japan is almost $35,000 over there. I do not think that FNA is at fault, the willingness of FNA to keep the Euro cars out is to protect the integrity of the cars that are made for the U.S. market. If Ferrari decided to no longer sell cars in the U.S. because of restrictive laws (ie.Land Rover Defender 90, 110), I have no doubt that they would still sell all of the cars they produced. As far as antitrust and monopoly, of couse FNA has the monopoly on Ferrari in the U.S., it is subsidiary of Ferrari S.p.a. Interms of anti trust, there is no barrier to competition. Lotus, Lamborghini, and Aston Martin do not seem to have any problems with FNA trying to keep their cars out of the country, so antitrust is not an issue. Ferrari is trying to keep their own cars out of the U.S. in order to protect the integrity of their product. If people are willing to buy a used Ferrari from the dealer at an inflated price more power to them. If people are not willing to wait for a new one or they will not pay a premium I have a hard time sympathizing with their situation. It is only worth what people are willing to pay, not anything else, it just so happens that people are willing to pay a lot to get a 360 now and not later. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Which body parts? They build a generic chassic that suits all worldwide standards of safety. | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
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Martin wrote: > You are all missing the point here. > The 360 Euro is the same car with a > different Speedo as the 360 US. That is not correct, Martin. I happen to have the parts books for the 360 Modena and Spider up to 2001 and have identified hundreds of parts that are different for north American cars. Many of these are engine and electronics related but quite a few chassis and body parts as well. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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You are all missing the point here. The 360 Euro is the same car with a different Speedo as the 360 US. I am not condemming FNA that they make tens of thousands more than the Euro dealers that BTW are not giving cars away either, they make thier profits as well. It does not matter if I can afford something or not. Does Explorer run as a webbrouser? YES. Is it fair to keep other software makers from being able to run on your programs, when you have created the only world wide acceptable program?---everybody answers that different, yet still it is antitrust! Has anyone ever won a lawsuit against the National importer of any make for problems with a gray import? NEVER, because the suit has no merit. Do they reinforce (have better because they don't have to do that anymore)the doors and bumpers etc? YES, I can prove that on my 208GT4 (which are all grey imports. I just cut out the reinforcements yesterday for the track car. These were welded in when it was imported. So were heavy metal parts in the bumper. They don't have to service them. Fine, if they do not want the business we'll take it elsewhere. But you can not press your will onto the american consumer just so you can control the market. Guys, this is Freedom of Trade! How would you feel if the rest of the world sais, we do not want to have any US cars imported onto our countries because they are built sh*tty? When thousands of american workers lose thier jobs as a result of that "protective import policy"? This goes to the roots. If you don't want a gray import, don't buy one but don't keep others from making that choice. The opportunity to choose is the freedom of this country. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
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Yes, all the dealers I went to were charging MSRP for brand new 360's. Of course, you'd have to wait in line. I waited about six months at my local dealer here in Puerto Rico. But I also checked dealers in the NY Tristate area and in Florida, and the wait was over 2 years. \ Ernesto | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
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If you ordered a car from an official Ferrari dealer, they can't charge you over MSRP. I certainly didn't pay more than MSRP for my 360. If a new owner want to sell the car immediately after delivery through the dealer, then the dealer can charge what the market will bear. Nothing's wrong with that. | ||
| Adam Goldman '86 TR (Icnsltmfg)
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I think we need to compare this with what HD went through 8 years ago when I had to wait a year for my bike. I think we would all be a bit more under control if FNA would force dealers not to gouge prices, and honour the MSRP. I would put my name on a list and be willing to sign a document that I would not re-sell for 6 months ( they do this for the 550 Barchetta ) but I would get it a MSRP. The fact that the dealers are charging ten's of thousands over list is where I have the problem. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
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Personally, I prefer Capitalism -- if you don't like what Ferrari does there's nothing stopping you from starting your own SuperCar company if you think you can (or should) do "better". IMHO they have every right to take actions within US law. | ||
| Howie F. (Brokerofexotics)
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Jim, That is an excellent point! I have heard stories just as you mentioned where some conversion companies do as little as possible to get the EPA papers. For example, when it comes to reinforcing the doors to US safety standards, do you think the EPA and/or DOT looks for proof of this by opening up the door panels? Not bloody likely. It is probably more prudent to buy a US version and receive all the safety and warranty benefits that come with an FNA car. | ||
| Jim Lang (Rochester0)
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God, I have never read so much whining before. If you can't afford a US spec 360, then TOUGH, go buy a 355. What all of you whiners fail to realize is the liability that Ferrari takes by allowing these Euros to come in. Do you honestly think that the $10k job that Amerispec does truly converts a Euro into a US spec???? Hell no, all they are doing is changing the car enough to get past EPA and DOT. SO when something goes wrong with your "federalized" euro, who is responsible? Amerispec?? probably, but who has the deep pockets? Yeah, go hire a lawyer and file a claim based on antitrust. I'm sure that judge will be very sensitive to the fact that you're whining b/c you having to spend $200k instead of $150 on a car. | ||
| Paul Cox (Pcox)
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Just to play devil's advocate, since when has Ferrari ever had any desire to satisfy demand? I remenber in the late 80's with the whole Testarossa demand, Ferrari said they will take all orders and build one car less that the orders. Here in Texas, you cannot even get any of the three dealerships to service a Euro spec car, not even an oil change. I have heard mixed reviews about the euros, esp the cars w/ the F1 trans. FNA will not honor the warranty and everyone cries foul, but it is a euro car, and the only conversion stds are set by the EPA and DOT. Good luck with the fight, but I think these are the problems you are going to face when dealing with an exclusive product that the manufacturer is doing its best to be exclusive. Remember, every car that is shipped to the U.S. is one less car for the European market. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Jon; it is an outrage. I have expressed my feelings about this on several threads and can only say that this stinks. They have no right to do that. This is creating a monopoly. Isn't that Antitrust? What you can do is buy your parts overseas or from people like Nick, who has sources in Canada and Ted Rutlands surely is importing as well. Screw FNA wherever you can. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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Guys, Maybe you don't need my 2 cents worth on this but Ferrari knows that we will keep buying them regardless of what they shove up our a--es. G.M. cornered the market as well for many years and built sh-t in the late 70's and 80's. Then came the foreign markets and boo-hoo. Now they build a better car. Ferrari has a strong image and even though they are challenged they come out on top. They know this and until the buyer stops accepting their bullshit and stops buying them or they get strong competition, which I don't see any on the horizon, they are going to take advantage of their strong image. So the Ferrari buyer is at a kind of fork in the road accept it or forget it. The question is, Where are you? | ||
| Mark (Study)
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I think FNA knows that if they can stop Grey Market cars, Ferrari will have to increase their offical percentage. Like now if Ferrari is giving FNA 25% of the new 360's and the USA market... but we really needs 35% of the production to satisfy demand. The Grey market is making up the 10% With FNA's idea. If they stop the grey market, maybe Ferrari will hve to up the amount of cars that go to FNA from 25% to 35% which is what FNA wants. FNA forces Ferrari to do this and they make more on each car and still have all the cars for making money off of parts and service. FNA is fu*king us and is Strong Arming Ferrari Spa. I think FNA has a lot of guts for taking such a nasty business move. What we need is a phone number and address so every one can write a letter and make a phone call. Got VW to back down real fast if anyone looked at the "Dealer sues Customer thread" So instead of talking about it... someone post some info and we should all write a letter? | ||
| Michael A. Niles (Man90tr)
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I thought the US was the first in sales, who is first, Italy? | ||
| William_Huber (Solipsist)
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You would think that by bringing in more Ferraris into the US will increase the parts & service department of your local authorized Ferrari dealer. These departments make more than sales, THE U.S. is the second largest county of Ferrari Sales! FNA is shooting themselves in the foot or is this a plot controlled by FIAT? I can't believe this is happening. W.W.E.D.? What Would Enzo Do? | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
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You're exactly right. It limits US competition, hurts customers but protects their precious (maybe greedy is a better word) US dealer network. Basic supply & demand economics. Limit the supply and prices (profit) remain high. Pure Bull$#+t. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
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Well FNA is at it again. This is a follow up to all the prior posts regarding the purchase and conversion of Euro (gray market) cars here in the US. In the January edition of Sports Cars International Winston Goodfellow (also editor of FORZA Magazine) states that FNA is in the final stages of completing a petition to DOT and NTHA that would ban the importation of any non-US certified Ferrari's. Here is an even scarrier quote from Goodfellow: "a final decision has not been rendered, but the smart money says there are going to be a lot 2001 Ferrari's sent out of the US, regardless of whether they are owned by the importer or the paying customer". This is total bull@#$%. There is also talk from my dealership that FNA will go beyond making it hard for US customers of gray market Challenge cars to get parts by outright refusing to ship any non-US numbered parts through customs. This makes no sense since all Challenge cars (F355 and 360) are not street legal (except for 95' 355's) and therefore don't have to meet EPA/DOT certifications. I think this is anti-competitive and really hurts those customers who don't want to wait four years for a 360 and are willing to buy a Euro model so they don't have to pay $100,000 premuims. FNA doesn't seem to care about it's customers at all. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 |