| Author |
Message |
Jack (Gilles27)
Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 316
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 6:54 pm: | |
Actually, Ferrari now seems to face a much, much bigger problem. I just read that Tony George's 5 year goal is to propel the IRL into the status of the world's premier racing league. Yes. Including F1. It would seem that ol' Tony has once again raised the bar for those Formula One hacks to shoot for. Talk about a reality disorder. |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 489
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 6:52 pm: | |
Is that one too many zeros?
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Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 161
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 6:49 pm: | |
Well actually Ferrari has bet a big chunck on MS,....
.....ABOUT $300,000,000 a season.
Regards,
Jon |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Junior Member
Username: Vwalfa4re
Post Number: 137
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 6:06 pm: | |
Ernesto makes a good point. I assume it would be criminal if Ferrari "fixed" the race to benefit themselves from a wager. I guess if someone can prove that Ferrari had bet a chunk on MS and then ordered RB over to second you have a crime and a case. If they didn't and it's just sorry pissed-off private gamblers screaming fraud then so what? Was it Ferrari's responsibility to see to it that all those who bet on RB win? Of course not. Besides this isn't a moral issue at all and who cares if Ferrari is being "investigated" or "charged with...". That doesn't mean you are guilty of anything. Nothing. It just means someone thinks you are.
If this really boils down to an issue of legal gambling and the possibility of a fix and Ferrari wasn't involved in the betting, then I really don't think they have much to worry about. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 920
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 4:20 pm: | |
see www.itv-f1.com for the latest. |
Marv B (Mdb69)
Junior Member
Username: Mdb69
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 4:08 pm: | |
LOL WWF |
Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member
Username: Tenney
Post Number: 148
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 4:02 pm: | |
How is it, then, that the WWF can remain in business? |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 398
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 3:13 pm: | |
The bottom line is that what Ferrari did cannot be considered "fixing" within a sport because what they did has been declared legal by that sport's governing body - through both regulation AND past decisions. The sport has a set of regulations, and they have been obeyed.
Now, saying that this is criminal because some fans did not like it or because some people who placed bets are unhappy, well, that is just ridiculous!
Until the FIA makes team orders illegal, then there is nothing than can be done about it.
Next thing you know the Austrian Government will file charges against all F1 drivers because they broke Austrian speed limits. Hey, the law supercedes FIA regulations, right? LOL!!
Ernesto |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 198
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 2:41 pm: | |
I'm tiring of this debate, but I have to point out that, as long as there is a drivng championship and a manufacturer's championship F1 is BOTH a team sport and an individual sport. |
Nika (Racernika)
Member
Username: Racernika
Post Number: 576
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 2:30 pm: | |
Frank - You haven't explained how this can be a fixed race when Ferrari would of won either way.
You cannot stand on your pulpit of what is morally right when this isn't about abortion, free speech, civil rights or religious freedom- this is about RACING. And unlike diving, biking, tennis or archery - this is a TEAM sport. We have 2 drivers, 2 cars but ONE TEAM - and therefore you cannot "MORALLY" dispute that a team has the right to make decisions in the best interest of the TEAM.
And Frank - another thing you may to start a petition for...sometimes race teams don't choose a driver for their ability - sometimes they choose them for the money they can bring to the team - That is wrong too - but guess what - it's just another *great* thing you find when involved in this fine motorsports business
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Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 919
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 2:00 pm: | |
It sounds like a lot of you guys out there have been brainwashed into believing that just because other teams do it and no team has been punished for it in the past that it is either, 1) right, or 2) won't get punished this time either. I respectfully disagree with that belief. The argument that fixing a race result is morally right because it is within a liberal interpretation of the FIA rules is ridiculous. Right and wrong are concepts that cannot be legislated by anyone, including the FIA. It is wrong in any sport,in life for that matter, not to try your best to compete. In F1, the whole world including fans, sponsors, governments and the FIA all depend on the drivers doing their best to win. Otherwise, you don't need to have the race. Just add up the statistics and pick the winner from there. I believe that the FIA will punish Ferrari for its race fixing in some manner. We will all have to wait until next month to find out how. I also believe that Austria will seek either civil or criminal(or both) charges against Ferrari for its abhorent conduct. The argument that because other teams have gotten away with it in the past is the same argument most have used with their parents as a child. I want to________ because John got to do it. Everyone else is smoking dope so why can 't I ? That argument begs the question and is flawed from the beginning. And Richard, race drivers do get speeding sanctions for speeding in the pits. And, if a race driver speeds on the public road he gets a speeding ticket if he gets caught there as well. |
TomD (Tifosi)
Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 736
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 1:09 pm: | |
Ernesto, a funny example but people have gotten in trouble for point shaving. |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 397
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 12:51 pm: | |
I just read on the internet that Kobe Bryant has been charged with fraud becuase he passed the ball to Shaq in closing seconds of the game, who then proceeded to score a basket and two points. If Kobe had not passed the ball he could have scored a three-point basket, thereby getting a total of 25 points for the game. Certain people had bet that Kobe would score at least 25 points, so him passing the ball to Shaq obviously constitutes fraud.
NOT! LOL!!
Ernesto |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 196
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 12:31 pm: | |
You may be right, Steve. It'll be intereting to see how seriously they take the brouhaha that surrounded the Austrian situation and whether or not they'll try to rectify the situation or just ignore it. |
Marv B (Mdb69)
Junior Member
Username: Mdb69
Post Number: 54
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 11:52 am: | |
I've seen plenty of instances where team mates were allowed to race each other and wrecked each other. I just don't see what all the fuss is all about. Why would anyone listen to the media, government officials or lawyers? They are all stirring the pot for their own interests. |
Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member
Username: 91tr
Post Number: 736
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 11:51 am: | |
Bill S. -- (Unfortunately) until MS has enough points to mathematically ensure the championship, I think RB will always be asked to move over (if no other cars in-between). I still think the best solution would be to have a special rule that allows the teams to trade the points awarded (post-race) between their drivers if they finish in consecutive points paying positions. |
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member
Username: Wsawyer
Post Number: 195
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 11:37 am: | |
Does anyone doubt that Ferrari will "allow" Rubens to take the win at Monaco this weekend if the situation presents itself? |
Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member
Username: Dino2400
Post Number: 96
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 11:26 am: | |
Franke writes, "The laws of a sovereign country trump over the rules of a private organization such as the FIA."
Not during sporting events! How many hockey players or football/soccer players are arrested for assault? How many race car drivers get speeding tickets? Come on! The race is organized by a privately owned entity and they can determine what behavior to allow and the rules of winning and losing however they see fit!
Frank, F1 is a team sport with two goals: the manufacturer's championship and the driver's championship. Even if an action produces no change in points for the manufacturer's championship, they are allowed to work as a team for the driver's championship too. The teams are allowed to decide which of the drivers gets the best equipment, best crew, take pit stops at the best time, and finish first by any means - including being allowed to pass the other driver! There is no rule that forces drivers of the same team to race against each other.
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Nika (Racernika)
Member
Username: Racernika
Post Number: 575
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 10:52 am: | |
hmmmmmmm - so let me think.....If Rubens didn't let Schumey by - FERARRI would of won...but he did so FERRARI won. Now I may not be a nuclear physicist but where was the fixing? The FERRARI TEAM WON!
It's not fraud - it's what has been done over the racing course for years and in all series - the championship is the holy grail Ferrari, McLaren, Williams ...you name them....want.
This is not new to racing - to punish TEAM Ferrari one would of had to punish ALL teams/drivers that have done this before.
Chalk it up as racing - you shouldn't of gambled your money anyway Frank. Will you want to charge them with speeding too? Those race cars are going over 150mph - and the legal limit in Austria is 80 on roads......
Just as ridiculous ....let's move on...
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Marv B (Mdb69)
Junior Member
Username: Mdb69
Post Number: 53
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 10:32 am: | |
Hmm, I don't think you know much about racing Frank. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 918
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 10:31 am: | |
The laws in most countries, including the U.S.A. I might add, make it a crime to fix a sporting event of any type UNLESS it is held for exhibition purposes only. A lot of people have gone to jail over the years for fixing horse racing, dog racing as well as other types of sporting competition. If the race were fixed in the U.S.A., Federal RICO charges would be appropriate. As a matter of fact, here in Georgia, several executives of a promotion company have been charged and will be tried on criminal charges arising out of a game they fixed that was being given out at McDonalds. They had fixed the game such that there were no winners. F1 racing is big business where a lot of money is invested by a lot of companies, people and countries. Race fixing is fraud plain and simple and the Austrian authorities apparently agree. I wish them luck. |
Nika (Racernika)
Member
Username: Racernika
Post Number: 574
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 9:54 am: | |
But what was criminal? Explain to me what part of the race did Ferrari break the law and what law is that? We are not talking assault, murder or rape here - we are talking about racing - TEAM racing. |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 396
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 9:42 am: | |
I hope you are joking!! LOL!!
Ernesto |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 917
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 9:35 am: | |
FIA rules won't matter if the conduct was against the criminal laws of Austria. The laws of a sovereign country trump over the rules of a private organization such as the FIA. And the Austrian papers all claim that criminal charges against Ferrari are forthcoming. Otherwise, we could make the official speed limit of FC members to be 150mph and decide to obey that rather than the speed limit of the state in which you were driving. |
Nika (Racernika)
Member
Username: Racernika
Post Number: 573
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 9:26 am: | |
Frank ...criminal prosecution? Are you insane? What is criminal? - they were within the rules! If Ferrari is fined or jailed for doing something that may not of been RIGHT but is still within the RULES - I will never watch another F1 race again. I think it take balls to even imply this is criminal.
Nika |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 395
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 9:19 am: | |
Jail Time? LOL!!!!! Not likely... No crime here. Pretty funny though!
Ernesto |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 916
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 8:56 am: | |
The Italian government dropped the charges against Frank Williams it had filed after the death of Senna. But, I suspect that the Austrian government can't be paid off as easily as the Italian government can. |
Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member
Username: Tenney
Post Number: 146
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 8:46 am: | |
Will Todt be sharing a cell with Frank Williams? Whose personal chef will be preparing mess? |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 486
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 8:35 am: | |
I think they just use bright orange suits now don't they? Maybe he could just wear one of the Arrows guys drivers suit. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 914
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 8:28 am: | |
Todt will look good in stripes, don't you think ! |
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred
Post Number: 485
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 8:22 am: | |
Jail Time?? |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 913
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 7:57 am: | |
All the teams will now start backing the Ferrari race fix since the Austrian government is investigating criminal charges of fraud to file against various Ferrari personal including Todt. They will want to show solidarity in an effort to stop the planned criminal prosecution. Several gambling businesses are also threating civil lawsuits against Ferrari for the fix. While I love my Ferrari, I hope some heads roll at Ferrari including heavy fines, forfeture of points and some jail time for all that gave the team orders. Lets hope the Austrian government has the balls to follow through to the end. |
Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member
Username: Hugh
Post Number: 99
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 7:29 pm: | |
Well, I think he may have said that there was "nothing wrong" w/ the team order. But, in his own acute way, Mr. Dennis still let's his disdain for Ferrari come through in a a very implict but casual way.
I think this quote succinently sums up Dennis' true feeling for Ferrari's orders:
"If I was a racing driver I would want to be able to win if I was able to - on merit. But that's me, I am not a racing driver."
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Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 160
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 20, 2002 - 12:43 am: | |
Most of you read my posts and know that I found nothing wrong with what Ferrari did in Austria, though I felt sorry for Reubens and agreed with many that it wasn't the greatest PR move (great PR does not win Championships).
Well now God (at least he thinks he is God) himself has spoken. Mr Ron Dennis, Mr. Ferrari hater, Mr. Ferrari basher, the guy who never said a nice thing about anything Ferrari related and who never misses an opportunity to bash the men in Red.
Either he has a secret emplyment contract with the Scuderia that starts in 2003 or he has has way too much to drink.
But darn it, if he supports it than it has to be right.
Regards,
Jon
'Nothing Wrong' with Ferrari's Actions, Says Dennis
Sunday May 19th, 2002
McLaren team chief and co-owner Ron Dennis believes team orders should not be made illegal by the sport's gorverning body, stating Ferrari's actions at the Austrian Grand Prix last week were not new to the sport nor illegal.
"What Ferrari did was completely within the rules," Dennis told the British press. "There is nothing wrong with what they did as regards regulatory matters."
Ferrari's decision to request Rubens Barrichello to give up a dominant win in favour of Championship leader Michael Schumacher came under heavy criticism and derision in the last week, with many critics stating the team had frauded the spectators. But Dennis believes there was nothing new with Ferrari's actions in last Sunday's race.
"I am not surprised by what happened," Dennis said. "It is how they choose to run their team. What happened was consistent with the way they chose to run their team. They have a declared number one and that's the beginning and end of it.
"Because they are in a dominant position at the moment they choose to make these decisions and they have to stick by the consequences. They have done nothing they haven't done before and have stated in their intention. They run with a number one and a number two.
"Rubens signed a contract on that basis and I am sure that he is happy to have the opportunity to come second. He could be in another car and not have that ability. If I was a racing driver I would want to be able to win if I was able to - on merit. But that's me, I am not a racing driver.
"I am a team principal of McLaren and we have a declared equality policy which, I think, stands the team in good stead. It may cost Championship positions or even a World Championship but I still maintain it is the way you should run a Grand Prix team."
Dennis also rejected comparisons between the contrived ending of the Austrian Grand Prix and that of the 1998 Australian Grand Prix, where David Coulthard moved over for McLaren teammate Mika Hakkinen - on the opening race of the season.
"The circumstances were completely different in Australia," Dennis stated. "It was the first Grand Prix of the season, our cars were quite strong in practice and our drivers decided whoever came out of the first corner first would win the race.
"They were correcting the outcome of that race. They did it in order not to push each other and in order to have a points advantage coming out of the first event. It's a different animal."
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