| Author | Message | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
New member Username: Jfraser Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2001 |
Solly, This is where it all got confusing for me....different shops told me different workscopes for the conversion process....One that I was told had to be done and isn't on your list, is that the car must have an OBD2 unit installed ($3500)..... What's the air pump for? One other question....the side blinkers on a USA car....do they sit in a recess, or are they mounted straight on to the bumper (as I presume is the case for a Euro conversion) I was quoted $12500 for my conversion (which appears to be the going rate)...and 6-8 weeks turnaround...given the workscope, why the cost and lengthy turnaround time...... | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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In order to get some hard facts I visited Amerspec today. •••• Fritz took me through the conversion process, and let me watch a car being converted. Bottom line: US and Euro cars are SO CLOSE TO IDENTICAL THAT THE DIFFERENCES ARE MEANINGLESS. Conversion entails: 1) speedometer in MPH 2) air pump installation 3)air injector installation (into exhaust) 4)strengthening bumpers and changing mounting points 5) installing side lights (turn signals) 6) changing catalytic converter I could do this conversion in my garage with the right tools and parts. Parts used are all Ferrari parts, eliminating any argument that conversions are inferior due to inferior parts. Cost is under $25,000 for conversion, EPA/DOT paperwork, shipping from Europe, import duty, acting as purchasing agent in Europe, etc. So these guys are making nowhere near the $100,000 profits some dealers are making by selling us "used" US cars at $100,000 over MSRP. Now that I've seen it for myself I am even more pissed off at Ferrari for bringing this case. Pure greed. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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With the focus now being on litigation and liability. Britney crashing her car etc. Well if FNA is doing all this to protect their legal interest and FNA would be Ferrari Spa, then that would mean that Ferrari Spa really only cares for the US market and possible legal actions and sells dangerous crap to the rest of the world. I mean if the US car is so much safer a US life is worth more than a German life, I guess! Maybe somebody should sue FNA or Ferrari Spa for that reason! As far as the dealers, they do not have to service ROW cars. They can refuse. Solly will not complain about that nor does anybody else. If the NA dealer does not want to sell parts, fine! There will be somebody creating a new business importing Ferrari parts from Europe. And a new small business is off the ground and somebody is making money. Love this country! As far as making more money. That appears to be your problem. That the importers are making money. Claiming FNA is not making near as much as the importers, you have to be sleeping on the wrong side of the bed. Lets make one thing clear here for everybody to understand: FNA has an alocation of say 1000 cars per year. Becasue Importers are importing another 300 cars as ROW cars into the same market as FNA, does FNA al of a sudden sell less cars, make less than MSRP (which is the most they can charge) or does FNA sell not all of its alocation of 1000 cars? Fact: They sell just as much for just the same price BUT the dealers can not run as much profit on the re-sales of near new cars as they could if there are 300 cars less imported as ROW cars. Why does FNA get involved? Because they know of what their own dealers do and okay it. My answer: screw them! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
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In the US, you don't have to sue the seller of the vehicle rather than manufacture for vehicle defects. The name of the case is Brown v. Buick. That allows you to sue the local individual. If their is no local distributor, then you must sue the manufacturer. If you bought in Europe, you may play hell getting the seller into US court. Before buying a Euro car, and given that Ferrri's occassionally have problems, I'd think long and hard about the risk being taken. Frank has described one way | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
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Luigi, You mention that the UK is getting as litigious as the US...I can assure you that when it comes to suing for a faulty vehicle, under the Sale of goods act...you do not have recourse to sue the manufacturer, you must sue the party the vehicle was purchased from....I know this for a fact, as I attempted to sue Jaguar last year for a brand new Jaguar XKR convertible that decided to shed its paint after a week of ownership (so much for Ford's quality improvements)....I hired a solicitor and a barrister (due to the value of the claim)....It took six months and thousands of dollars...I got my money back from the Dealer...The OEM physically sells the vehicle to the dealer and you physically buy from the dealer...The quality of the vehicle becomes the responsibility of the dealer.... This whole thread is very personal to me, as I am moving to the USA, and am attempting to bring in my 360 which I have owned for a year....why the hell should I have to buy another identical vehicle (as near as damn it)...its TOTALLY RIDICULOUS...I've paid my money, I fail to see why I should pay again....I would be more than happy to have a Ferrari dealer do the work needed to bring the car into compliance...they don't want to do it....I have zero sympathy for Ferrari on this given US dealership's propensity to buy back cars with 200 miles on it and jack the price thru the roof....I am afraid this precludes them (and Ferrari NA for letting them do it) from ANY moral highground....We live in a global marketplace, and exploiting differences in that marketplace is the essence of capitalism.....Let's face it the car companies exploit this fact when the cars are produced (I don't think Volkwagen Beetles are manufactured in Mexico because of its sunny location) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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If you are going to buy a euro car, Ferrari or other make, I would fly to Europe, pick it out, buy it, drive it a week or so and ship it back to the U.S.A. to a DOT/EPA convertor I picked out myself. As a lawyer I have handled several cases against these guys that advertise euro cars for sale where they have taken a $50k deposit and not delivered a car. While I have gotten my client's money back a few times, most of the time the money is gone and the so called seller is no where to be found. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
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Martin I believe Luiggi Chinetti is the name you couldn't recall. Yes at the time I bought the 360 from Amerispec I did "save" 40k from the then going rate for "flipped" cars.But of course I expect to get significantly less when I sell. My point to Solly was in retrospect (and that's how we learn-from a bad experience)the price paid in frustration'agita etc was just not worth the front end saving to ME.As I outlined,few calls returned;the car arriving with burnt headlight assemblies and no dash lighting;being treated as a pariah by local F dealer and FNAetc,etc all made for an experience I wouldn't wish on an enemy! If Solly goes ahead then at least he has been prewarned and the "saving" of $ is worth the possible and likely problems. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
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this post could win the award for most amount of words. If this keeps up Rob will need a new server  . Great discussion BTW | ||
| Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
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You miss my point. A Ferrari is a Ferrari, whether it is FNA, F-SPA, or JK modified. Yes, in the UK they are now seeing the same litigiousness that possess the US. Give me a break!! Do your legal research, OEMs (not RI�s) are sued everyday by owners, and most everyone else who has beef. If a RI modified Ferrari crashes the lawyer goes after the deepest pockets. Same as he would with a dentist or doctor. The RI has little or no assets so he goes bankrupt and the OEM is left being sued. Read you DOT and EPA history on importing non-conforming vehicle. The programs were never designed for competitive business purposes. Neither were they legislatively or regulatorily created to enforce the numbers of vehicles now being imported (over 200,000 last year alone). Sevicepersons do not go through the exact same process but are subject to the same US Custom, EPA and DOT requirements. There are few exceptions to this. If you read the warnings from the various armed forces you will see this. Unless you have verification that Ferrari lied I cannot comment on the Challenge cars. I can tell you from first hand knowledge that Porsche, which maintains tight control on the GT3 versions, has been caught off guard by the importation by race teams of illegal GT3 street cars. It isn�t a perfect system. Solly�s comments are interesting. The vast profits at Ferrari dealers are not there. They are there in the world of Fritz�s and JK. What a great deal for the ICI/RI!! Take a car manufactured by someone else, use the OEMs own copyrighted parts and service information to petition, do little or nothing to it, and sell it for enormous profit. Then, when it has a recall, pass it off to the dealer, if it needs service ditto to the dealer, it is needs warranty work, pass it to the dealer. And if you, Britney or anyone else crashes the �modified� car, close your doors and stick it to the same OEM whose product you value so highly. As an analogy, if we really want to reduce the cost of dental care let�s bring in dentists from India and elsewhere, let them use non-OSHA equipment in premises which do not meet the NY state codes. In this scenario, we will make them a 501-C non-profit. This is a better mousetrap albeit, a temporarily one until somebodies fillings are found to contain lead, then who will we sue? As has been said, �limited funding and quality care is not mutually exclusive�. So it is with Ferrari, limited production and quality care are not mutually exclusive. There is no government agency trying to force anyone to pay anything. You pay what you want. If you want a US car, you pay the price just as you pay your dentist. I don�t see any competitive pricing for the dental work I am having done. IF you want to pay only for a �modified� Ferrari then go ahead. What happens if Ferrari increases production only to see the market fall further than it is falling at the moment? Then GM exercises their right to buy the whole company because Ferrari has to much overhead and not enough sales. Last year, approximately 20% of Ferraris brought into the US were non-conforming cars. Yup, follow the greed. You may get your ROW car, but the company may disappear. You can spend your money anyway you want, subject to the law of the land. The law of the land says that RI�s must meet the same requirements as the OEMs. Now that they are being asked to do this they want to blame everyone else but themselves for their own shortcomings. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Solly so true! FNA is not Ferrari Spa. Although they like to appear that way. FNA was founded in the 50s I believe by a New York Italian with connections to Maranello. I have that story somewhere home. There is even a picture of the Ferrari NA dealership from back then. It is individually owned. Although you call it a Ferrari plain does not imply responsability by anybody. Neither does it make it necessary to "protect" that name. If Brittney crashes a Ferrari she has crashed just that. BTW she had done so in England. Is FNA now going after British DOTs to make sure their name is not smeered? I can not see any legal issues arising from driving, crashing a Euro Ferrari or a NA Ferrari. On what basis would you sue? Please...give me a break! The import laws were not established to protect US importers neither to allow Service men to import their cars. In fact, service man do not have to go through the same process when importing a car. They can bring and legalize cars that do not conform to EPA regulations. This was up until 1991 when they too had to make the changes as everybody else. Only non official importers lie? Her eis a fact from Ferrari back in 1993. In 1993/1994 FNA imported 32 custom made Challenge cars. These cars did not meet the specs they had on file with DOT/EPA. The cars were brought in as 348 Berlinettas. They were legalized as such for everyday use. In fact they had different seatbelt harness hook ups, untested by the US, different engine management, not tested by the EPA and there were a lot of other changes. Yet FNA did not want to go through the expense of doing a new data sheet so they lied when they imported them. This much to protecting their liability and just standing up for the protection of the US consumer...my a+s. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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As I mentioned earlier I am a big believer in free trade. I believe that I have the right to buy any item I like at the best price I can get it at, without violating the laws of the area I live in. Ferrari has artificially blocked the free trade process not only by seeking to ban these Euro imports, but by knowingly allocating too few cars to the US, and too many to other countries (who are then selling them to us as Euros). I too have heard of phantom names put on waitlists by dealers, and the same cars sold with 200 miles, as used cars, by the same dealer, at $100,000 premiums. Why doesn't Ferrari monitor this practice? Because it is rewarding all its hardworking dealers by allowing them these vast profits on the assumption that no one is getting hurt, since the buyers of these expensive US cars are willing to part with the money. Luigi-you mentioned that ferrari has the obligation to protect its business interests by getting the most money it can for its products, and as a business owner I agree with you. Yet I have the same fiscal responsibility to myself and my family to not buy something for $200 that I can buy for $100. Why is Ferrari's fiscal responsibility more important than mine? After all, I am the consumer and presumably will be in the market for these cars over the rest of my lifetime. Remember the old adage that rewards the person who builds a better mousetrap. I believe the importers have built a beter mousetrap by seizing an opportunity to sell us items at enormous discounts. I am firmly in favor of doing it all properly and legally, and punishing those who don't, but hey, these guys found a loophole in the law (if in fact it was originally written for returning servicemen), and exploited it to their benefit and my benefit. What's wrong with that? Entire business sectors were built on exploiting laws written for a different purpose. Bottom line: You must always follow the money. There is no way US dealers can compete long term with dealers offering an almost identical product for $100,000 discounts. The number of US buyers willing to pay these ridiculous premiums for these cars is dwindling by the minute. $100,000 is a hell of a lot of money to toss in the trash, I don't care how rich you are. Let Ferrari Spa and Ferrari NA compete by building a better mousetrap, rather than using a government agency to force us into paying absurd premiums. All they need to do is to increase allocation to the US market to meet demand, and they won't need the government muscle any more. | ||
| Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
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Those who break the law push those who enforce it to come up with new tools. The Feds are working on a national database of driving license holders. Vehicles are being looked at as well. Most of the title shops are out of business. I can easily tell now if a car has a legal/illegal title. In the state I live in they check every car now for a proper title and they have computer programs to spit out any irregularities. Even the common tactic of intentionally changing one digit on application by mail, and then going in person when it comes back is working less for the wannabe perps. Many states now require an enforcement officer verify the VIN at several locations. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
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From the ads I see, the high prices on 360/550 cars are not from FNA dealers but from individuals and resellers of used cars. You can order a new 360 or 550 from a FNA dealer at MSRP at any time. It's only if you don't want to wait do you have to pay the over sticker prices being advertized from non-FNA sellers. I have heard of people bring in non-US cars as track cars and then running them through lenient states like Alabama to have them registered and then transferring the title and registration from Alabama to their home state. Kinda like laundering money. While I would not recommend such illegal conduct, I understand its been done successfully. | ||
| Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
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"What they should do is aid the Feds in obtaining material to prosecute these individuals. Show the prosecutors where the differences are and what they have NOT done." So it is being done. Ferrari of North America IS Ferrari in the US. Well, mostly since Fiat has a part in this as well. It a lawyer sues he will go after the deep pockets which means going after FNA and F SPA. In this scene, who owns who means little as the corporate veil would be pierced. No, Ferrari SPA is very involved in these issues as is Fiat. But you'll have to take my word on this as true. If one plots the rise and fall of the dollar vs. the Euro and DM on a graph one will see that more ROW cars come in when the ratio favors the dollar. Martin's comment on Ferrari using their "influence" and money to fix things is way off base. I have seen none of this. In fact, I believe that Ferrari NA and SPA have reluctantly addressed the petitions and are doing so now because of the potential liabilty issues. When Bittney SPears trashed her rented Ferrari it was called a Ferrari not a JK or GnK anything else. If you want to look at insider issues I would look at why certain individuals long in the import and broker business have had the contacts to operate the way they have, IMHO. We have a mechanism to own a Ferrari. And we have laws that protect the consumer and the OEM. But we also have a few who have made zillions ignoring the law. Solly will not oversee his car being made to "comply". Unless he plans to be there 24/7. Maybe if he did see what really goes on he would have second thoughts. Right now there is a Ferrari for sale on Ebay which is illegal and one of the Individual Cars. Individual and associates recently pleaded guilty to conspiracy to import numerous illegal exotic cars. But they are still out there being offered for sale. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
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Before I jump into the fire pit.... I was under the impression that FNA was a wholly owned subsidiary of Ferrari Spa, is this the case or not? I keep seeing FNA is NOT FSpa, if not, is FNA privately owned? If they are are priavtely owned would they have the warchest to fight this battle? What about other auto importers/distributors, aren't most owned by the manufacturers? Like MB-USA/NA, BMW-NA, etc. I think most are owned by the MFG. -Ben | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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No snowboarding yet. Arived here yesterday afternoon. The weather is sunny but FREEZING cold. Well, compared to 85 in Miami, 14 is pretty stiff. Telluride is a nice town. Met some dude yesterday and he is all into snowboarding, man....gotta rip the half pipe and carve some loops man. I felt like a grandpa talking to the guy. Is that what my father meant when he said: one day you will lose touch with the younger generation...? Getting ready to head out. I will let you know how it went. With all the cloths I will put on, if I fall I will bounce right back up | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Luigi< you are missing the point and I hope I can spell this out for everybody here: Ferrari of North America is NOT Ferrari the car manufacturer! Ferrari of North America (FNA) is the official importer that has a contract with Ferrari the manufacturer (Ferrari spa) to imort these cars under the brand name Ferrari. That allowes them the close affiliation to the manufacturer. FNA is not protecting Ferrari spa, they are protecting FNA interest and only FNA interest. Ferrari spa can care less. They have made their moneythe car was shipped to a importer that being Ferrari of Germany or FNA. They just do not care after that anymore. This is why the legal issues are with FNA and nowhere is Ferrari spa named as being the one complaining. Yes it is about profit. Yes they do make profit, both FNA and the importer. Shouldn't they? The Euro exchange rate is not a factor. Ferrari spa, the manufacturer, is in Europe in the EU and sells in Euro to Germany. I am sure FNA buys the cars in Euro prices from Ferrari spa, not in US Dollars, why should Ferrari spa bother. So in fact FNA makes even more money right now because the exchange rate is even better. Listen: I am not complaining that FNA is making a buck and a good buck it is. I am complaining that they want to use pressure and influence and money to monopolize their business. And NO they do not have a right to do so. There was once an argument that I could go and buy a Chevy if I did not want to pay what FNA is asking for their car. This is like saying you can write on a charcoal board if you do not like how Gates monopolizes the computer industry. Or say, eat potatoes instead of pasta, becuase the US government had blocked the importation of pasta to the US for a while to protect US pasta makers. Que cosa? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Luigi< we are on the same page there. If a conversion is required but not done, that is criminal. Unfortunately that happens and these individuals should be prosecuted. No question. but to make the argument, because one or two have done so, nobody else should be allowed to even do the right thing and do it "by the book" is what makes this argument. If Solly imports a car for Germany he will oversea the conversion. He will do what is necessarry to bring it to conformance. Why should he not be allowed to do so? FNA did not start a criminal investigation against these people that have misused the system, they have started a campaign against you and me. What they should do is aid the Feds in obtaining material to prosecute these individuals. Show the prosecutors where the differences are and what they have NOT done. but that is not what this is all about. | ||
| Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
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If you import a car for yourself, then that is one issue. If you import dozens, hundreds, of vehicles under a system of dubious and often illegal circumstances (assuming the work is ever done, which it is often not) because you know the person who oversees the paperwork or know how the system can be compromised don't start complaining when another part of that system puts a stop to this behavior. What JK, Fritz, and other "converters" do is not competition. It is, IMHO, a rip off. Why are there over 80 2001 Ferraris here now? Because someone sold these cars as being a "done deal" before any petition was approved. That's criminal, IMHO. As I said before, this house of car(ds) has only started to fall. | ||
| Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
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Martin in Miami - You are right, this is capitalism in all its forms. If you have, as you say, brought in as many cars as you have then you have done so because you profit. In your equation on profit you forgot to take into consideration the 20-30Thousand devaluing that a Euro car has. Added to this is the fact that each RI "modifies", and I use this term very loosely, each individual Ferrari differently. Ferrari built 99.99% of the car. Don't you think they should profit the most? Yet, they carry the greatest burden in terms of responsibility. It is not true that FNA is not liable. They are. Witness the three million USD judgement against Porsche in the '80s. You get 50% off parts, but probably the parts are marked up 200 or more percent. I know, I was in the imported parts business for many years. Sherman antitrust prohibits the OEM from telling the dealer what to charge. Again, it's all about the money, isn't it? Prices have already dropped on spiders. And the OEMs are now using leases to control the dealers as best (legally) as they can. Porsche has tried twice in the last 25 years to cancel dealer franchise agreements and has backed off because of legal pressure. Porsche would love to sell their cars direct as would many other OEMs. That's one of the reasons dealers are trying to make a profit off service operations - it isn't coming from the sales floor the way it use to. The fact is that the RI and ICI programs are a fraud. They were originally designed to allow returning service persons and foreign nationals a means to import their car on a limited basis. The programs have been bastardized to the level of absurdity they now occupy. That's how you were able to benefit and profit. Ferrari built the car just as Tupperware makes their product. And they have every right, hell, they have an obligation to do what is best for them and their investors. As an investment person you should know this. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
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Martin How was snowboarding? You seem all fired up | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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what do you think is going to happen without competition? Take the airline industry. I inquired about a ticket from MIA to Philadelphia. AA $ 200 Cont: $ 320 Delta: $ 250 United: $ 560 Now take Cont and Delta away and leave AA and United. If they would fly the same route, which is questionable, they would both charge $ 200 or would they charge $ 560? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Equality - Liberty and Justice for All ! as the immigrant that I am, this is why I came here. This is what made this country great and what makes gives the power also to smaller businesses. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
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I love these discussions! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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With that same discussion, if Ferrari Germany can sell these cars for $ 100,000 and make a profit how come that FNA carges $ 170K retail? Answer: because they make $ 70K more! FNA does not warrant any cars nor are we makig the point that they should. That is there business and if they did not make the money selling the car we can not ask them to service or warrant the car. Point taken. So I do not use their dealer network, their offices or their time and effort. I may buy parts from them, but hey, they make GOOD money on those my friends. I get a standard 25% dealer discount at my Ferrari dealer for all parts. Some even more. I had parts where I received 50% discount and they still make profit at my dealership plus FNA makes profit. This is about free trade. I can not go after somebody if all of a sudden somebody lowers real estate commissions fromm the industry 6% to 4% just to make less money. Free Trade. Neither can I sue the owners of the house for some bull sh"t because they signed the 4% agreement not my 6%. >this as an example out of my real estate day job< Stop whinning how unfair FNA is being treated. They use every method to get their way, legal or illegal. Thier argument that they have now withdrawn as being "inaccurate" was to stall this process for 3 more months until they were proven wrong. They do not respond until the last day of a dealine. Stalling. They get extensions to stall. Your typical actions of big against small. Sue until they run out of money and quit. If you accept this behavior your world will be changing soon. Your will be paying much more for things because all competition is being blocked. What FNA should do is implement actions against their own dealer system. A authorized Ferrari dealer can not re-sell a car younger than one year. See how prices will drop immediately on Spiders. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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The old argument... Dr, Martin, after spending all the money for "warranty items" you still saved $40,000 vs the then US price. To me that is WELL worth buying a Euro. We had the same discussion before some months ago. There will be no lawsuits against FNA as they were not the importers of the car. FNA is not FERRARI guys, when will you get that. FNA is merly what you and I are if you bring in a car. An importer. The only difference they have a letter from FERRARI stating that they can claim they are "authorized" importers and can act as if they were FERRARI. If they were FERRARI they would have to honor the warranty issues that come up on every car, as much as Ferrari will have to honor them if you send your car to the factory for a warranty issue (which just nobody does). Although one can file suit against everybody nowadays and hope for settlement (shitty legal system)this suit would be thrown out in court immediately. There is no basis. Solly you nailed it on the head. It is about greed and protecting their dealers, so they can screw you royally. They have dummy names that they place on the waiting lists and these "people" then elect not to take delivery of their vehicles. Then the "authorized" Ferrari of NA dealer can sell the car as a second hand vehicle for $70,000 more, after already making a nice profit on the original sale, and circumvent the MSRP requirement. This practice makes the waiting lists longer for Sollys all over the country that would have bought the car at reasonable prices. The difference is not $160K vs $200K but more like $ 170K vs $250K. For the $ 80,000 difference I rather buy a 355B in additional to have an extra toy while I am shipping parts from Europe or if there is something expensive to fix under warranty, ship the car back to Germany on US plates and have it fixed at the dealer there. Solly my only advise is, there is converted Euros already here that you can buy with DOT and EPA papers. Buy one of those. This is what I would offer you, not one that is still in Europe. Pay a little more for not waiting and having your car sitting at the conversion station for 2 months. The difference is maybe $ 10K and well worth it. BTW, you will love te legroom in the 360. I was impressed and you are even taller than me. | ||
| Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
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You should heed Martin�s advice. As he learned, it is an expensive proposition to buy a non-US car. Mr. Fritz took his (Martins) money and ran. Which seems to fit his MO, IMHO. There have been complaints about Mr. Fritz but you won�t hear about them because the owners have no recourse unless there was more blatant fraud such as occurred in Florida. Mr. Fritz and Mr. Merritt started the Ferrari Club of America back in the �50s. Fritz worked for Chinetti, the original importer of Ferrari into NA. Mr. Merritt has worked for DOT approving certificates of compliance for DOT, OVSC for 20 plus years. Ferrari along with the other OEMs have tired (weakly) to comment on petitions but the RI�s have always gotten their way so the OEMs gave up - until now. You put two and two together and I think you�ll get the picture. In all this talk there is only mention of a part for part comparison. What about the dealerships that Ferrari maintains? The service equipment? The service personnel? The insurance Ferrari pays? The lawyers? Ferrari pays the Feds $8000.00 on each 360 it imports. The RI�s pay nothing. Martin didn�t take his car to Fritz or JK for recalls or service. He took it to a Ferrari dealer. Fritz has an office, nothing more (except a healthy bank account); JK has a lift. Solly, how would you like it if someone started importing a product YOUR company makes and violates all known law and the product was defective to boot. But if there is problem, the lawyers will not be looking for a JK or a Fritz; they will be looking for Ferrari�s deep pockets. The big brother you complain about has legislated and regulated those very laws such as seat belts, bumper standards, airbags (would you believe that some engineers in DOT do not believe in airbags) and other safety standards which have saved many, many lives. That same big brother has laws that allow you to sue the daylights out of a company. My opinion is that Ferrari SPA is involved. The problem with the bumpers being different is that the airbag sensors and airbag model are set to perform under a specific set of design criteria. Changing that changes the ability of the airbag to respond. To the best of my knowledge, JK has never crash tested a Ferrari. This is what they are trying to avoid. The RI�s don�t trust one another so banding together will never happen. So you add up the cost of doing business in the US and then show me why it isn�t JK, Fritz, et al who have the advantage. Follow the greed and the money. Ah yes, the money. My calculations show that the brokers such as Mr. Fritz make far more profit than either Ferrari or the dealerships. Typically, the original broker makes up to a $100,000.00 or more on a $225,000. spider. I know, I get offers from the same people in Germany that have the cars for sale. There is no question that some dealers are inflating prices. There in so much misinformation about this issue. My take: the JK petition is the tip of the iceberg. Watch for more is a court or newspaper near you. | ||
| Michael A. Niles (Man90tr)
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Personally, I do not see the point. If you can spend 160,000 why not spend 200,000 for a US car and forget the hassles. The numbers after 5 years of ownership are so minor. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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Don't know.I'm not technically a customer yet, so I don't have an official grievance or any damages. Smart thing for the RIs to do is band together, raise cash for attorneys and federal lobbyists. Tough for a JK to take on well-financed Ferrari. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
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Did you file something as an affected consumer? Do you have the right to do so? Would such a submission still be timely? | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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As far as crashworthiness goes I believe JK makes the argument that its cars exceed the US regulations for crashworthiness, and in fact excedd the specifications for crashworthiness built into US Ferraris. JK in fact argues that Ferrari NA has never even performed crash tests (is this possible?), while JK has crash tested Ferraris on their own (seems unbelievable that an independent importer would do this while the manufacturer hasn't). There seems to be an enormous controversy over the exact location of the bumper mounting points despite the fact that JK has asserted that no matter where the mounting points are, they will still meet or exceed US standards. I agree that the manufacturer has a vested interest in assuring that its cars are not improperly modified by an unknown 3rd party, but the issues here seem to revolve around trivialities rather than substance. Why wasn't Ferrari concerned with this issue during the last 30 years? Why isn't it currently concerned with the 456 series (this injunction affects only 360/550 cars)? Perhaps its dealers are not screaming too loudly about the 456 since there doesn't appear to be this artificially induced supply/demand problem for that model. The whole affair just seems so greed-driven rather than substantive. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
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i am reluctant to cast myself in the role of an apologist for FNA, but a couple of observations are in order. First, the big price differential is purely the result of demand greatly exceeding supply in this country; the deep discount you are being offered for a Euro car is median price of an authorized US spyder ( 6 speed a little lower, f1 a little higher). Thus, our free market rewards those who were able to get on the right list at the right time by allowing them to sell their US cars at a premium.(One wonders if there are paying customers here, and readily available cars there, why the allocation is not different, but that's another issue).I have not had time to read through all the files that were posted (thank-you ,though, for doing so), but would assume that, if a car is not compliant to the gov't standard in things like crashworthiness, the manufacturer could have legitimate concerns about unnecessary liability. I don't know if the converters have to crash test their products; if they did, that argument would not have much weight. Aren't there differences in the US standards, compared to those of other countries? (I am not trying to justify the US standards themselves, but just assume them to be a regulatory reality that the manufacturers and importers(private or commercial) have to face). The cost of compliance would seem to be less of an issue than how well it is done; so long as FNA does not control the work of private converters, it seems to have a legitimate position. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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Thank you all for this info. I had previously heard that •••• Fritz was a respectable businessman, and had heard no previous complaints against him. Spoke to him today, and he is offering me a 2000 model 360 Spider, 3000 miles, in "brand new" condition, for $168,000 including all conversion costs, shipping, etc. I pay only sales tax. He is also willing to guarantee clean EPA/DOT paperwork. This kind of savings (over $100,000) is just about too good to pass up, despite all the headaches associated with warranty work and repairs. It is simply too much of a discount to pass by, assuming everything really is in order. Ok, now I have to say my piece. I rarely get worked up about fairly frivolous issues, and in the scheme of things this is (in my view) a frivolous issue (in the sense that while there is still strife on earth and children still go hungry, luxury Italian cars are frivolous), but I believe that Big Brother has screwed us again. I am a lobbyist for a few of my companies, and I employ other lobbyists at State and Federal levels, so I have some firsthand knowledge of the sheer stupidity levels of some government employees. I have been reading all the documents filed with DOT by Ferrari and JK Technologies (thanks to Jason) and urge all of you to read it as well. I see this as classic, pointless interference by intrusive government agencies in free market trade, driven purely by greed on Ferrari N.A's part. The arguments Ferrari NA makes (interestingly, Ferrari SPa Italy, the manufacturer, is staying out of this fight, and appears to be distancing itself from some of the sillier assertions of Ferrari NA) are ludicrous; their chief argument being that the cost of the conversion to US spec is too expensive, and involves something like 360 parts for DOT compliance, and a few more parts for EPA compliance (Ferrari NA claims conversion costs of over $60,000 based on "retail" prices). JK Technologies correctly addresses this idiotic statement by stating that Ferrari itself admits the cars can be brought into compliance, and that the issue of money spent on conversion is up to the owners who want to spend it, not up to EPA/DOT. Ferrari has also admitted lying (sorry, "giving innacurate statements") in its initial argument to DOT about differences in chassis, fuel systems, etc. (there were none, or they were so slight as to be meaningless), these "inaccuracies" being brought to light by either JK or by other interested parties. Apparently the cars are almost identical. In reality, all Euro Ferraris can be, and have been safely driven here with very minor modifications, and conversions of all types of automobiles have been driven here for the last 20 years that I know of, without being singled out as particularly unsafe or defficient compared to "U.S spec" cars. With Euro 360s selling at >$100,000 discounts to US models, the dealers (and Ferrari NA), must really be feeling the pinch. There is no other reason for this type of outright blockage of free trade. While the average US citizen would not care either way about who wins this case, I believe there is an important principle being trampled on by EPA/DOT, and if Ferrari wins this case with a meritless argument, then what is to stop any US-based vendor of anything from complaining to the government that foreign versions of its product, built to almost identical standards (by itself, no less), are in fact inferior, and that while they cost far less (because the rest of the world refuses to pay $280,000 for a product priced at $160,000 by the manufacturer)they should be banned from import to protect the vendor's US profits. Sorry for the long-winded diatribe, but I have occasionally been on the receiving end of some pointless new government regulation, and it has never improved anything in my industry, only ended costing everyone more money. Anyway, what is the real "scoop" on Mr. Fritz and Amerispec? Legit or not? Any other RI's/converters better? Should I go to Europe myself and buy one there and arrange everything myself? | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
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Solly--No, No, No!!! It just isn't worth the intractable headaches I can assure you you will suffer. I imported My 360 from Germany thru Amerispec.One has no recourse when the car comes with problems since the car is paid for in advance. Mine came with no background dash lighting, burnt headlight assemblies.Took 4 mo to replace liq crystal for dash lighting-had to layup the car and send the dash to Italy.(cost ME $550.After waiting 8 mo for new headlight assemblies and being assured that F was warrantying I finally surrendered and ordered them ;paid $3000 plus installation.Furthermore Fritz rarely answers calls.As the "Soprano's" say-forget about it. P.S. there were 8 service recalls 4 of which FNA did under warranty and the others I pd for. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
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Fascinating... If there really were a cutoff agreed to by DOT/EPA, wouldn't they have the power to issue a 'NoAction' letter, of the type the SEC and other agencies do, saying, in effect, that they are not taking action against a particular VIN #? This may be a course open only to those who are or have (free access to) lawyers, since the cost of negotiating this may exceed the discount; interesting question whether Ferrari have the power to complain "retroactively" if they fail to meet a petition date, or if an approval has issued. Suppose that should be covered by applicable regulations, for the more ambitious. | ||
| Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
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Sorry, I meant below. On 1/02/01 a spider and a coupe were built with these numbers. I have seen cars with earlier VINS which were built after 1/02/01. Can't explain this unless they were built for the Japanese or other markets. Ferrari did not negotiate with DOT or anyone else for a cut off date. Ferrari builds cars by calendar year, for lack of a better way to explain how they run their production. Earlier cars may become a problem but we'll have to see. Erika Jones, Ferrari's outside counsel, worked for OCC at DOT, not EPA. Ferrari recinded their request on confidentiality and the technical information has been made available. However, the petitioner, JK, asked for and was granted confidentiality on Ferrari's own information!!! I believe that this granting will not hold. There is no agreement with EPA on anything. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
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Luigi, Don't you mean below the two numbers that you state....i.e.cars earlier than these cut off vins are ok...... | ||
| Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
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First, neither Mr. Fritz nor Mr. Merritt should be trusted, my opinion. There are a LOT of skeletons in their closets, I'll leave it at that. 360 coupes with VINs above 122816 and spiders above 122958 built on 1/2/01 are supposedly OK. But, there have been many exceptions with earlier VINs not being eligible. Amerispec (Ameritech) Mr. Fritz is an off and on Registered Importer. He is not an ICI (EPA). Much of his ICI work is done by JK Technologies, the petitioner for the Euro 360 and 550. I believe that the 2000 cars may also be a problem. I am not aware of any Feb. 28 meeting to decide anything. As we chat a number of cars are in the process of being seized. There are 82 Euro 2001 Ferraris that are illegal and beyond the 120 day allowance period. Brokers and others should never have sold or imported these cars. Caveat emptor. | ||
| Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
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Solly, The vin number you mention sounds about right....I was quoted it a few weeks ago....Doody, to answer your question...Ferrari NA is not allowed to retrospectively claim non-compliance on vehicles, already passed by the EPA/DOT.....for a while, Ferrari NA was caught sleeping and didn't petition against Euro imports...When they finally decided to get nasty, a vin number cut off point was agreed with the DOT/EPA, which was around the number that Solly mentioned. As a rule of thumb 2000 euro models are ok, and 2001 aren't. Solly, why don't you make the sale conditional on DOT approval, you could set up some form of letter of credit etc. (bet the Euro importer won't go for it)....I really wouldn't bank on Ferrari NA losing the case....I understand that they've hired the best lawyers in Washington, and one of them used to be employed at the EPA....If you want to get an idea how good they are, you need look no further than the fact that they managed to have the list of differences between euro/US models classified as trade secret!!! Meanwhile, it's not surprising that the importers are getting desperate, they have converted cars (the car has to be converted before you can initiate the EPA approval process) that are not saleable in the US, and no-one in europe is going to want an emissions restricted car with non-compliant US lights & side blinkers....the worst of all worlds, a car that doesn't really fit anywhere!!!! $140,000 on that basis sound expensive | ||
| Jason (Jason)
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Go to the link below and type in 9628 in the 'Docket Number' field for more info. http://dms.dot.gov/search/ | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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Apparently Ferrari managed to block importation of 2001 cars, but only those above a certain serial # (I believe it is 122600 or something like that). All 2001 models below that serial # are eligible for conversion. All older models are eligible. There is supposed to be a hearing on Feb.28th to determine the legality of this ban. No one knows the outcome, and in the meanwhile, I was contacted by one of the importers you mention, with a currently ineligible 360, whose car is sitting at the dock in LA, and he ofered it to me (brand new 360 Spider, <100 miles) for $160,000. Then I have to take the chance that the EPA/DOT ruling is not overturned, and I have a very expensive piece of art (or track car). I have heard that some importers are so short of cash due to their cars sitting around on the docks that they will unload Euro Spiders at $140,000 to recoup some cash. A great deal for the gambler who buys one and EPA/DOT rules favorably. Anyone see a major price drop ahead for the 360 Spiders and/or coupes? How different are the Euro versions that they persuaded EPA/DOT that importing them poses a clear and present danger to US citizens? How can they be that unsafe, but ok for European use? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
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BTW, there is a 360 spyder advertised in this Sunday's NYTimes for 197k. Don't know the story on the car, but if it is already here and legalized, its the right price. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
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i'd be less worried about service (and assuming clean history to car,etc.) than the notion of a VIN still open for conversion. •••• Fritz is entirely reputable, but it is my understanding that Ferrari has been very aggressive in blocking any grey market cars. That said, what does an "open" VIN really mean? I trust you saw the article from the Washington Post a couple of weeks ago, about all these grey market cars sitting at importers because they could not clear U.S. regulatory stuff.That seems to be a pretty big risk, no matter how deep the discount, if you can't put the car on the street. I don't know if •••• merritt at DOT can clarify things for you, but he is one of the rare exceptions to no-nothing government beauracrats: i don't have his number to hand, but it is frequently published in the magazines and FML to sort out grey market issues. Waiting may not be an option, at least for a 360 spider, given the length of the list and the actual number of cars coming in.I suspect that they will carry a premium for a while...but you may be more patient than me. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
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why are these cars open for importation while FNA ia blocking others? | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
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I have been checking the prices on 360 Spyders, and have found a few Registered Importers (RI's) offering Euro version 2001 360 Spyders (with VIN numbers still eligible for conversion), for $185,000. This seems unbelievably cheap when US versions are going for $250,000-$280,000. The $185,000 includes shipping, all conversion costs at Amerispec (near my home, and an excellent reputation), and all other fees and import taxes. Cars have 200 miles on them, but obviously no warranty. I have seen these prices at 3 websites. A few people on this site have warned against buying Euro cars due to service headaches, but I met 2 people at Cavallino last week who just returned from Europe with brand new 360 Spiders and 550 Barchettas. Both told me that the amount of money they saved by buying in Europe and converting was so high, that they could afford to air freight the cars back to Europe for warranty repair of major mechanical problems and still come out way ahead. These were sophisticated Ferrari owners with very expensive cars. What are your opinions? Go for it now with the euro? Wait 6 more months for prices to drop further? Forget the whole thing? |