| Author |
Message |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 2:26 pm: | |
I know gear ratios can make a major difference in 0-60mph times. On the 348 the transaxle ratio was lowered for the 348 Spider, GTB, GTS and Serie Speciale which partially accounted for the lower 0-60mph times. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 2:18 pm: | |
This could make sense. There has to be some sort of a reason other than the HP numbers and weight. The next time I call Nick I'm gonna ask him about this stuff. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 7:13 am: | |
According to R&T in 1983, They had to keep it in 2nd to obtain the 6.8 time which exceeded the red-line by 200rpm. The same month (AUG) C&D was a 1/2 sec slower. I have always assumed they shifted to third before they hit 60 but they didn't mention it. This would mean the European cars could pull to 60 before 7700 rpm. Of course we could just go out and try it for ourselves to see. |
Erik Lombard (Elombard)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 10:25 pm: | |
Another thought - I wonder if the taller ratios in the euro allow it to run to 60 w/out a gear change?? Do the US cars require a change to 2nd before hitting 60 MPH? |
Erik Lombard (Elombard)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 10:23 pm: | |
Guys I would not be suprised if the cams were different on the QVs. A change in compression like that combined with a cam will make a big difference. I am really surprised at the acceleration numbers when looking at the gear ratios. I would think the 0-60 would be similar even with the more powerful euro motor. When I put a gearbox with racing ratios in my Datsun race car the difference in acceleration and performance was astounding but the ratios were not that defferent from the stock box. Torque multiplication is king!! |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 10:09 pm: | |
See, that's just what I don't understand. Their 0-60 #'s are much better then ours but we are geared lower on the bottom end. You would think a heavier car with smog add-ons would do at least as well 0-60 as they do with lower gear ratios but the test literature says different. What's with those engines? Cams behave like gear ratios, they trade off one gain for another. Was Ferrari dialing in low end cams with high end gears back then in Europe?
What would be nice is putting a US 5-speed in a Euro-spec car. Who would have ever thought that, but that is what the specs imply here.
I'm not the expert here so somebody help me out with this. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 9:38 pm: | |
It means that the US version will accelerate slightly quicker, whereas a Euro will have a slightly higher top speed. How much of a difference, not all that much. I would venture to guess it's barely noticeable to an everyday guy. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 8:45 pm: | |
So how do these different gear ratios translate into performance differences? |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 11:19 am: | |
That looks right Paul, I thought Tommy had the right ratios (I vaguely remembered 3.08 being first in my car for obvious reasons why that number would stick), which is what lead me to belive they were running different axles. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2002 - 10:43 am: | |
The ratios I have for the 83gtsi US version are
1st 3.58
2nd 2.35
3rd 1.69
4th 1.24
5th 0.95
axle 3.71:1
US 308 QV
1st 3.08
2nd 2.12
3rd 1.52
4th 1.12
5th 0.83
axle 4.06:1
Euro 308 QV
1st 3.41
2nd 2.35
3rd 1.69
4th 1.24
5th 0.91
axle 3.82
Im surprised they changed them that much but I guess I would prefer the US gear selection for my 2 valve over the euro. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 11:54 pm: | |
The 308 2-valves all were 8.8:1 carb or FI. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 11:52 pm: | |
I have a softcover book full of road tests from the gt4 right up to the qv by all kinds of different magazines. They have the 0-60 times as well as 0-30,0-100 and so on. I also believe it has the specs such as final drive, dry weight, wheelbase , blah, blah, blah. Ill look through it and dig up more info. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 10:17 pm: | |
The US QV's got lower gear ratios for better acceleration as the US had lower speed limits and the average US customer is much more interested in acceleration than the average European customer. I wonder if they kept the final drive the same? I know mine is really high, like a 4.11 or 4.40. It doesn't make sense that they would switch from the 77 to the 83 like that, you would think they would be going the other way which is what makes me wonder about final drive. I know that overall the 308QVs were the shortest gear ratios of any 308 (highest rpm at a given speed for example) or at least according to FNA. I find it hard to believe that any 308 could run higher rpms than the QV, on the highway it would be almost undrivable (right now it's over 4000rpms at 65-70 from what I remember, damn it's been awhile since I've driven the Fcar). |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 8:10 pm: | |
Okay, here is what I have found:
1977
US, Europe
first 3.59:1, 3.41:1
second 2.35:1, 2.35:1
third 1.69:1, 1.69:1
fourth 1.24:1, 1.24:1
fifth 0.95:1, 0.91:1
1983
first 3.08:1, 3.41:1
second 2.12:1, 2.35:1
third 1.52:1, 1.69:1
fourth 1.12:1, 1.24:1
fifth 0.83:1, 0.91:1
Evidentially Ferrari left the transmissions alone overseas. Why would they do that and go to the trouble of swapping the insides on the US bound cars?
Road tests are very scarce for the 2V injected cars overseas. it seems that everyone was more interested in testing the Mondial instead of the newly injected 308 (except for the US magazines.)
I looked in publications from different countries and they all wrote the above ratios I listed under Euro-all different then US magazines.
So what does all this mean?... |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 7:02 pm: | |
For the most part all the gear ratios of 308s should be close to the same. The only cars that got significantly lower (favor acceleration) ratios were the US quattrovalvoles. I've heard cam differences too, but I'm not so sure because of such small performance differences and I don't think they would want to make the car idle rough (I've also never seen this listed as a difference on a Ferrari tech site). What I do know is that they run different timing and higher compression (9.2:1 rather than 8.6:1). Higher compression makes me think different pistons, but it doesn't make sense for so little performance gain to make two different pistons. So, I'm sure they run different timing and compression, which could easily make for the extra 10-15hp.
As far as the 2 sec differences 0-60, I think it has more to do with no one ever really testing them next to each other (and publishing the results). I've heard 360 times that differ by almost a second (3.9 vs 4.7). If in the modern computer world where everyone tests and records their date religiously they can screw up this much, I can only imagine 20 years ago when very few people were testing these cars and were doing it crudely (relatively). And, we know you can't trust the Italians to test it fairly. Ferrari is arguably the most notorious company in the world for overstating HP (right next to Ford) and other performance numbers. Based on similar cars (E36 M3 for example, I would say the stock US can run 0-60 in a little less than 6 seconds, roughly, you'd have to really rev it up to do so though). |
Paul Newman (Newman)
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 6:27 pm: | |
I thought the eurospec cams were different, thats what I was told in addition to the dry sump and no smog. They claim only 15 hp gain. I read on a post here last week that the performance difference was almost not noticeable and not worth buying a euro over a US model. I would be interested in the ratios as you mentioned, that could make a big difference in 0-60 times. |
Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
| | Posted on Monday, February 04, 2002 - 6:20 pm: | |
I was digging thru my Ferrari library last night and was wondering (again) about the rather large performance differences between our 308's and the same ones sold overseas. Some of the acceleration differences were as much as 2 sec. 0-60. Now I know all about the smog equipment, etc. but I just do not see that kind of improvement in my car since I removed the cat and installed a Tubi.
(84 308 QV). I suppose the heaver bumpers can slow things up a bit but for all practical purposes they are really the same cars.
Now to my point: I did notice a consistant difference with the gear ratios between the US and Euro cars. I am not at home now so I can't type the exact #'s but basically on all the models the transmissions were different. Now I have read and heard all the different ways to squeeze more performance out of our cars except for this one.
I would love for all the experts out there to discuss this. Is it practical to order the appropriate parts and swap out gear ratios for quicker acceleration times like we see in Europe or not? |