| Author |
Message |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 12:25 pm: | |
Ferrari sold out in racing in the mid nineties when the unshamedly copied the winning Williams TW17 and TW18s. I don't think this would have happened with il Commendatore still around, but it is responsible for them winning later on. As much as their road cars have changed a lot since his death (not necessarily a bad change either, reliability can't be a bad thing), they still have stayed pretty true to the name. Even the 360 which takes a lot from purists (like myself at times) still really is in the same basic setup as its predecessors. It's good to see the cars that we'll get a chance at have pretty much stayed true. |
James Dixon (Omnadren250)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 11:49 am: | |
As a Porsche fanatic, I think it is very unfortunate the way the company has progressed in the past 10 years.
I hope Ferrari does not "sell out" and start building cars for poseurs.
Who can forget when Porsche was building the insane 959, or reading about how scary and exhilerating a drive in a 930 was??
They used to dominate Le Mans, and you could almost make your 930 perform like the factory racers for a relativly small amount of money.
Now, they have directed their efforts to building SUV's and boxters. THe turbo, is now a boxter/carrera 4 lookalike, with all wheel drive, tiptronic transmission, cupholders and a navigation system.
In this city, all the hardcore car enthusiasts dont know what to do anymore. They dont want the new twinner, as it is marketed to all the soccer moms. There is no Ferrari dealership here so trying to service an F car is a nightmare (well, with my fathers experiece, it was a nightmare when it was at the dealership also). Even the guy down the street from me who owns 4 Ferraris just bought a Z06 to drive everyday. |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 11:42 am: | |
I'm reserving judgement on the Cayenne until I see the final product.
If I need a SUV this very second, the Audi allroad is probably the best one. It's not terribly expensive. Very comfortable. Pretty good cargo capacity. And 6 speed stickshift. |
Mark (Study)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 11:32 am: | |
The photos I saw of the P-car's new SUV concept were just ugly. small and nothing very interesting. |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 11:27 am: | |
Well, I don't see why everyone is so upset about a Porsche SUV. I'm just surprised they didn't do it sooner. Porsche had a pretty good off-roading history in rallies. Their AWD system seemed pretty good. Ferrari never had those experiences to build a SUV so they shouldn't bother.
The only SUVs I'd consider buying are the new Range Rover and the Audi allroad. If the Porsche Cayenne turned out pretty good, I'd add that to the list. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 11:05 am: | |
Cause I need a 400HP (or whatever it is now) SUV like I need another hole in the head. Sometimes I wonder where they come up with these ideas. Other times I wonder how they're actually successful usually. |
Mark (Study)
| | Posted on Thursday, February 07, 2002 - 8:33 am: | |
What's wrong with SUV's
How many of you are going to buy the Porsche SUV.
(what a joke) I think I've seen spy shots but not sure when its coming out? |
William_Huber (Solipsist)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 9:55 pm: | |
Damn..... Fiat will be controlled by the same people that produced the Fiero? I wonder if GM will bring it back as the Mera & all Ferrarist to drive them the winter months? Maybe a Ferrari SUV or Minivan? A Ferrari with ONSTAR? AAAUUUGGHH!!! Think about it. |
Mr. 001 (Racer_001)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 7:27 pm: | |
GM isn't all that bad. They are starting to change with Lutz around. Hopefully for the better. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 7:02 pm: | |
It's funny you bring up the CTS. It's 3.2L 220HP engine uses belts that have replacement invertals of 150,000 miles, yes 150,000. Not the to be confused with the 15,000 of Ferraris (alright maybe they can go 30-50K). |
Jason Fraser (Jfraser)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 4:33 pm: | |
It's disappointing to see newspapers such as the New York Times get facts just plain wrong...."Last July, Fiat moved into energy"....WRONG!!!! Fiat has been in energy for many years; its gas turbine division is actually a licensee of Westinghouse GT technology.....A small point maybe (unless like me you have competed against them for years) yet if the most basic of facts is innaccurate how much of the rest of the article is credible......
The sale of Fiat's car division has been 'kicking' around for ages......Fiat has always made it very clear that Ferrari is not part of the package..... |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 3:47 pm: | |
Let's not forget: New Maserati Quatroporte based on a new Cadillac STS. The horror...the horror...the horror... |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 3:40 pm: | |
Hey, think of the parts sharing possibilities. Same basic chassis as a future Vette for a new V12 front-engined Ferrari. A mid-engined chassis for the 360 successor and a new Pontiac Fiero. A super-crossover vehicle for Ferrari based on some 4x4 GMC chassis to compete against the Porsche Cayenne. Man, I'm gonna have some nightmares about this one... |
Erich Walz (Deleteall)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 3:30 pm: | |
While it wouldn't likely happen, here's something to think about-what if Ferrari improved with GM acquiring it? After all do you want a British Leyland Jaguar or a post-Ford Jag? Lamborghini seems to have improved under both Chrylser & Audi. Don't get me wrong I'm confident GM could screw it up, but that's not a definite.
And while a sale to a US company may seem a little, well, wrong, remember that it was Enzo Ferrari himself who was negotiating a sale to Ford.
The price though would be astronomical. When Ford bought out Jag, it was later revealed that Ford paid around 6 billion just for the jaguar name (and accompanying heritage). |
Peter S�derlund/328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 3:21 pm: | |
...and more older "news" (december 2001)
Ciao
Peter
------
Alfa Romeo may have been isolated so that GM can buy it
There are two theories as to why Fiat decided to split its Alfa Romeo and Lancia brands - a decision that goes against most modern auto company organizational thinking.
Troubled Fiat Auto gets an all-new look
Why Testore was forced out at Fiat
New boss Boschetti led Iveco recovery
Alfa Romeo may have been isolated so that GM can buy it
One is that Alfa Romeo will eventually be combined with Ferrari and Maserati - still owned by the holding company Fiat SpA and not by Fiat Auto. The other theory is that Alfa was separated so that it can be sold - most likely to General Motors.
Fiat Auto won't discuss either hypothesis. But the new organization has many people mystified.
A more likely scenario would have been to separate Fiat from Alfa Romeo and Lancia and put the two prestige brands together.
When Fiat bought Lancia in 1987 it created AlfaLancia Industriale SpA, which was mainly a tax reduction scheme. Lancia's profits were offset by Alfa's losses. AlfaLancia Industriale was dismantled in 1991 after Alfa became profitable.
The two luxury brands were not reunited in the December 10 reorganization even though their vehicles will share the same structure - the "premium vehicle architecture" Fiat Auto is developing with GM at Saab in Sweden.
High hopes for Alfa in USA
Fiat Auto executives say that combining Fiat with Lancia is similar to the recent VW group restructuring, which puts VW together with Skoda and Audi with Seat.
But, in fact, a separate Alfa Romeo business unit could be sold to GM, which has high hopes for reintroducing the Italian sporty brand in the USA beginning in 2005. GM will sell Alfa cars through one of its distribution channels -- most likely Cadillac or Saab.
In 1989, GM bought 50 percent of Saab, hoping to make the Swedish company its worldwide sporty premium brand. Twelve years later, GM now owns all Saab shares. But it is still far from its objective.
Alfa Romeo is a much stronger brand, with a truly sporty heritage.
By selling Alfa to GM for billions of euros, Fiat group would cut into its massive E7.5 billion debt. Yet Fiat patriarch Giovanni Agnelli's desire not to exit the car business would be fulfilled by keeping Fiat, Lancia, Ferrari and Maserati.
But if you subscribe to the other theory, a separate Alfa Romeo, later grouped with Ferrari and Maserati, could become Fiat's core automotive business. Then in January 2004, Fiat could exercise a "put" option it has with GM and sell Fiat and Lancia to the American company. Both companies have repeatedly denied that the put option, allowing Fiat to sell the remaining 80 percent of its auto business to GM, would ever be used.
But GM already has its own restructuring troubles with Opel and it would add new ones by acquiring Daewoo. Buying two other weak brands, Fiat and Lancia, doesn't make much sense - unless it was at the right price.
Luca Ciferri
Automotive News Europe |
Peter S�derlund/328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 3:15 pm: | |
GM own 5.7% of FIAT Auto and FIAT Auto owns FIAT, Lancia and Alfa Romeo.
Ferrari is a part of FIAT SpA. 10% is owned by Piero Ferrari.
Therefore i dont think that Ferrari is affected at all.
More from Automotive News
Jan. 28, 2001
Agnellis disagree on Fiat Auto's future
Luca Ciferri
Automotive News Europe
TURIN - The two heads of the family that controls Fiat SpA don't seem to agree on the future of Fiat Auto.
Giovanni Agnelli, 82, honorary chairman of the Fiat group, says he won't abandon the car business, even though Fiat Auto is going through tough times.
But his younger brother Umberto, 67, head of the family financial holdings IFI and IFIL, appears to be growing impatient.
"At the moment we can't invest in other sectors because [Fiat] Auto needs to be fixed," said Umberto after a speech in Rome earlier this month. "I am waiting in great trepidation for the results [Fiat management] promised us. We will see in six months."
Sources say that many within Fiat's controlling family would like to sell Fiat Auto well before a put option enabling the unit to be sold to General Motors takes affect in two years. The option allows Fiat SpA to sell to GM the 80 percent of Fiat Auto that the US company does not already own.
But Fiat patriarch Giovanni Agnelli has a different view. For him, Fiat without autos is inconceivable.
"We believe in the automotive sector and the Fiat group is in good, strong hands," he told 660 top managers of the Fiat group at the company's annual end-of-the-year meeting in Turin. "More than half of the group doesn't have problems and is on a growth path."
Umberto's patience may run out by July 25, when the board will present Fiat's first-half results.
The stock market has pushed Fiat ordinary shares to below 17 euros, less than half the 35-euros peak in March 2000. To regain the confidence of Umberto Agnelli and other investors, Cantarella and Fiat Chairman Paolo Fresco are accelerating a program to sell assets. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 2:38 pm: | |
Hey if GM buys the Fcar then we could get parts cheap, albeit the Fcar parts may be swappable with a Cavalier, but they'll be cheap. |
TomD (Tifosi)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 11:48 am: | |
make no mistake, Gianni is still in charge and probably will be until he dies. I doubt they will put the company to GM becuase the strike price will probably still not be enough in a few years. While the Agnelli are great business people, they are known to deal with some unscupulous characters in order to get the best price for their holdings, i.e Juventus - the dallas cowboys of Italian football are now partially owned by Kadaffi/Lybia. |
Willis Huang (Willis360)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 11:38 am: | |
If they ever do a GM Ferrari, I'd think my FIAT Ferrari (or any pre-merger Ferraris) would worth more in the future. |
Luigi Tarisio (Tarisio)
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 06, 2002 - 11:33 am: | |
How about a GM Ferrari? Last year there were 225 ROW Ferraris imported. FNA imported 1100. Keep buying those ROW cars and help GM exercise their option to buy all of FIAT. Read below
From todays NY Times:
Will Autos Be a Part of the Future for Fiat?
By JOHN TAGLIABUE
First it began diversifying, scaling back the car division's share of total revenue. Then, losses year after year made it clear that the auto division was the sick man in the portfolio. Now the big question about Fiat, the Italian conglomerate, is whether it has an independent future making cars.
Such speculation got a boost from news reports that members of the Agnelli family, Fiat's principal shareholders, were complaining that losses at the car division were draining resources from more lucrative investments. All this highlights how Fiat's world is changing and its role in Italian industry is evolving.
Long a catch basin for a variety of noncar businesses from insurance to publishing, Fiat has been evolving under its chairman, Paolo Fresco, a former right-hand man to John F. Welch Jr. at General Electric (news/quote), into a modern conglomerate.
Last July, Fiat moved into energy, joining with EDF of France to acquire Montedison, an Italian electric generator. More recently, it raised its stake in the Italian insurer Fondiaria. In the four years since Mr. Fresco arrived, Fiat's consumer credit business has more than doubled in size, to 25 billion euros ($22 billion) a year. But the automobile unit's share of group revenue dwindled to 45 percent.
Plagued by low margins and high costs, the Fiat car business has been losing money and is not expected to generate operating income before 2003 at the earliest. In March 2000, Mr. Fresco reached a stock-swap agreement giving General Motors (news/quote) a 20 percent stake in Fiat's car business in exchange for a 5.7 percent stake in G.M. and a put option � that is, the right to oblige G.M. to buy the rest of the car business � that takes effect in January 2004.
Analysts speculated from the start that the deal heralded an exit from carmaking, though the company has said it has no plans to exercise the option. In December, Fiat used its G.M. shares to back a bond issue.
In Italy, newspapers reported recently that Umberto Agnelli, 67, who runs the family's IFIL investment group, is open to selling the Fiat car business, but the family patriarch, Gianni Agnelli, 82, Fiat's honorary chairman, is opposed. Mr. Fresco has recently denied several times that the unit is for sale, though sometimes tepidly. At an industrialists' meeting on Monday, he said, "If I had to decide today, I would hold onto it."
Reminded of Mr. Welch's dictum that unprofitable businesses should be sold, fixed or shut down, he told The Financial Times of London that the car business's mandate was "fix it, fix it, fix it."
In Turin, where Fiat is based, an executive close to the family denied any split. "There is concern," he said. "But it is one thing to be concerned, another to be divided." The Agnellis are closely following efforts to make the car unit profitable, he said, but he declined to say what would happen if the efforts fail.
Fiat's management plans to halve its net debt to 3 billion euros by selling assets and by raising $900 million in new capital, though much of the debt lies in Fiat's Case New Holland agricultural and heavy equipment division. The car business will be carved into four profit centers, and a cooperation agreement with G.M., signed at the time of the equity swap, will be expanded.
Fiat's share price has dipped below 17 euros, from a high of 35 euros at the announcement of the G.M. agreement. The market is hesitant, said John K. Lawson of Schroder Salomon Smith Barney. Similar debt reduction plans were announced last year, he said, but "they missed their targets in 2001."
Still, the joint ventures with G.M. to unify purchasing and power-train manufacturing in Europe and Latin America are progressing so smoothly that the two companies are developing what is "essentially a common platform" for high-end cars like G.M.'s Saab and Fiat's Alfa Romeo, said Stephan Weinmann, a spokesman for G.M. Europe.
In any event, Fiat still has two years to make up its mind. Complicating the decision is the role of successive Italian governments as friendly partners to Fiat, maintaining closed markets and providing investment aid.
"Politics in Italy gave Fiat its power base and also the opportunity for more investment," he said. "But the politics of employment is the other side of the coin." In its present round of cost-cutting, Fiat will close 18 factories and shed 6,000 jobs � but none will be in Italy. |
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