| Author | Message | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1983 Registered: 2-2001 |
We're on the same page Art, BRGDS | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 148 Registered: 6-2001 |
Magoo: You're right, I didn't get it right. You were talking about how to keep the gun from use, I was talking about the use. If everything was as cautious as you, then maybe we wouldn't need regulation over ownership. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1979 Registered: 2-2001 |
Art, I think you are missing something here. By responsibility I mean the responsibility to keep your guns locked up out of the hands of others. If not then you will have to pay by doing time. Much time. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1494 Registered: 5-2001 |
I can not see where this is political. Not all republicans are pro gun and all democrats anti gun. And then ther eare the Independants, they kill everybody  just kidding ! If the risk of somebody innocent getting killed outweighs the possiblity of protecting yourself 1 to 40 plus, why would you even try that. It is playing russian roulett with a gun that has 41 chambers and you fill 40 with bullets and one without. Who would play that game? This gun mania in the country is NUTZ ! | ||
| Harlan Mott (Hmott3)
New member Username: Hmott3 Post Number: 27 Registered: 12-2001 |
Arthur, Ok I see your point, but its starting to feel slightly political so I'm not going to response. Maybe its best to keep the topic Ferrari based, we can all agree on that! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 145 Registered: 6-2001 |
Magoo: Taking responsibility for your acts sounds good, but it doesn't deal with the grief to the other side. When someone dies, there are consequences that cannot be dealt with by taking responsibility. The survivors of 9/11 are seeing the effects of that now, and no amount of money is going to solve those problems. As for Harlan's comments about alcohol. I personally think that its use should be severely restricted because he is absolutely right about the grief it causes. I think the major issue here is that those who wish to use guns, etc. think that because they may or may not be competent to use them, we should let everyone have access to them. I think that firearms should be strickly controlled, with a good many hurtles to obtain one. We no longer live in society where the majority of people are sane, and are able to deal with the day to day issues without substantial anger. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1976 Registered: 2-2001 |
Taking responsibility for your firearm is no different then taking responsibility for how you operate a motor vehicle, even controlling your pets that could be dangerous to others and so on. People in our society have to learn how to accept responsibility. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Junior Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 197 Registered: 10-2001 |
Harlan has good points. I personally think owning a gun is far too dangerous for me and my family but that doesn't mean it should be illegal should someone else should they feel the need. They just need to also take on the burden of what safe gun ownership entails such as gun locks, training on how and when to shoot, and the risks of a dead wife or children by accident. | ||
| Harlan Mott (Hmott3)
New member Username: Hmott3 Post Number: 26 Registered: 12-2001 |
I think Darwin would be proud, its natural selection. If a parent can't teach there child that touching the gun will get his butt busted and keep it well locked up maybe its best they not have kids. I don't own a gun I will never own a gun but I would fight for my/your/their right to own one. I don't care how many people kill each other with guns on accident. Should we stop selling alcohol? Do you know how many accidents that result in death or injury could be stopped if we outlawed alcohol? I know my grandmother, cousin, and her unborn child would be alive if it was. Punishment should be swift and stern but we shouldn't lose rights because someone else isn't responsible enough to keep kids from things, or robbers for that matter. Boy shoots a neighbor boy, this seems easy to me, let me set the punishment. Gun owner and wife, if she knew he had the gun not stowed safely, lose all children. Gun owner goes to jail as if they committed the crime, wife goes to jail as accessory (again if she knew of guns unsafe state). I'm sure if we enforce this a few times people will be locking their guns tight and if not, I again point to Darwin�s theory of natural selection. I read that again and it sounds pretty harsh, I even thought about not posting it, but hey its how I feel. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1490 Registered: 5-2001 |
That is what you can do with statistics. Crime might be up but with less than 300 murders in Germany for example on 80 Million people, how does that compare to the thousands killed here in the US. Go by crime per 1000 residents and you will see that the US is right on top. I have not heared of people getting killed over a purse, murder-suicide in a domestic matter etc. until I came here. As long as there is "good people" having guns in there homes, there will be bad people stealing them out of their homes and their good kids shooting friends and family by accident! News from Miami today (this is the 2nd since I am back from vacation, means within a week!): 8year old was shot by his brother playing with a gun! Thank God he is not dead like the other kid last Wednesday! The US gun related accidental shootings are higher per 1000 than Germanies and Englands actual murders per 1000, that is murders in total, not just those with guns involved! When will you all wake up and realize that it is not 1850 Santa Fe anymore! | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1965 Registered: 2-2001 |
The only thing I know is I sleep much better knowing my Smith and Wesson 357 magnum is in my night stand next to my bed. If there is someone out there who wants to take something from me outside of my home then I guess that's the way it is. Car or whatever. But "DO NOT EVER" come into my home and try to take what belongs to me, family or otherwise. Either he or I will not live to tell the story. I think I have the edge. This is a sorry comment to have to make but unfortunatly our society has situations that exist like this. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1654 Registered: 2-2001 |
I can't remember what the article was from, but check out Australia and Britain in the same periods when gun confiscation came into effect. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 143 Registered: 6-2001 |
Bret: Who says that the crime rate goes up when guns are banned? I looked all over for those stats and can't find them. BPR Art | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Junior Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 195 Registered: 10-2001 |
Crime is related to the strength of the economy, not banning of guns. Crime had gone down a lot under Clinton because of the strong economy. You can make statistics appear to indicate anything you want....but common sense is that the more guns out there, the greater chance of being shot. That's the price some are willing to pay to have legal hand guns in a free country. I just hope my neighbors don't have any guns because I'd be a lot more likely to be shot if they do. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1653 Registered: 2-2001 |
I wont get into a debate about this, but just some points to think about: 1. In every country where guns have been banned crime has gone up, not just petty theft, but murder, rape, etc. 2. British police are now starting to carry guns (after hundreds of years of just carrying batons)because crime has gotten out of control after banning guns. 3. There are over 200 million guns in the US. How do you confiscate this many over such a large area. Only honest citizens would actually oblige. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1481 Registered: 5-2001 |
Guys sorry, but to me guns have to be banned for individuals. Thank God we have some responsible people here and reading these posts I doubt that something is happening here but in general Jo Blow from Alabama (gosh I hope nobody is from Alabama) may not be thinking the same way and starts shooting. This is where that 43 number is from. It is 43 times more likely to shoot somebody inocent or yourself than shooting an intruder. If the cards are stacked this bad, why even bother? If guns can not be stolen from homes every day in break-ins the "bad guys" can not get to them easily either. As far as me leaving the keys in my car, that is only in my garage and thzey are not in the ignition. You have to sit in the car and look for them. No not behind the visor..... Where is the point in locking the car here at the office if I do not have the top on and the window is down. Might as well open and close it with the pin. When were were in So France I saw people in Monte Carlo leaving there Ferraris and Bentleys running while they go into a store. But where can you go if you steal that car? Only 3 ways out and 1000 police man. Same in the tri city area I live. 8 blocks my town, 8 blocks the next town and 8 blocks the town to the intracoastal. There is an ocean on one side and the water on the other. 3 ways in. One has a toll facility, the other has a huge state park after their city limits and south is Miami Beach with horrible traffic. There is no way out. If somebody wants my car, here it is, 10 blocks further he is arrested and his a*s hauled to jail. Did I mention we have a 1 min. response time in my town? | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Junior Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2001 |
Paul, I think you're right. Most criminals do not want to injure someone, they want to intimidate you with a weapon. When they are met with considerable resistance I think most look for easier targets. | ||
| paul s (Pes236)
Junior Member Username: Pes236 Post Number: 79 Registered: 3-2001 |
tyler and especially magoo - thanks for your opinions - i gueuss what i was thinking is - do i think this is an honorable criminal - am i 100% sure that if i give him the car he will not injure or kill me. Do i know that he is not going to demand that i leave my wife in the car so he could rape her? I guess what i was thinking is that if I had a somewhat safe opportunity to pull my gun there is probably a better than 50% chance that he would run | ||
| Robert Davis (H2oquick)
New member Username: H2oquick Post Number: 42 Registered: 8-2001 |
This past year I built my new home. I built an extra large attached garage with 3 1/2 bays and quite a bit longer than the standard deph garage. The main garage is a double door 18' instead of the standard 16'. And the 3rd garage is a single door 9' instead of the standard 8'. It is a drive through with solid garage doors( steel with fibre core and steel backsides) at both ends. This is the side of the garage the Ferrari is stored in. The garage doors are not operated by any electric openers. The garage is monitored by both motion detectors and entry point detection. The alarm is battery back-up unit. Both sides of the garage have motion entry lights. Also the forward focal point is monitored by a camera which records on activation of the sensors.(so if everything else fails, maybe they will get themselves on candid camera). My insurance company has noted everything that I have stated to you on this post. So if a theif wants it bad enough, I guess she will be gone. Oh by the way the car is equipped with a fuel shutoff, which is activated 60 seconds after the car is started. So in the end maybe they will be caught pushing. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1946 Registered: 2-2001 |
Paul, At that point he is carrying a weapon and before he gets to me or whomever is with me, I'm going to take him out. The car will not be a issue. I figure that if he has a weapon and is attacking me I have every right to put him down, and I would. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Junior Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 97 Registered: 12-2001 |
Yep, same answer. Once that first bullet leaves the gun I cannot control it. Hopefully it would stay put in the attacker, but what if it doesn't? I cannot control the innocent people around in a situation like that. If I felt that turning over the car would safely resolve the situation I would do so without hesitation. Cars are readily replaced. If I had no choice but to defend myself I would, but that is a last resort. | ||
| paul s (Pes236)
Junior Member Username: Pes236 Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2001 |
tyler and magoo - i respect your opinions - here is another one - armed carjacking - carjacker has knife/baseball bat or wrench -- you are carrying gun -- same answer???????? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 140 Registered: 6-2001 |
MAGOO: THE CAR MAYBE AN ATTRACTION TO KIDS, BUT I'D RATHER HAVE THEM LOOK INTO IT, THAN KEY IT, OR BREAK THE WINDOW FOR A BETTER LOOK. THIS HAS WORKED FOR ME FOR SEVERAL DECADES, AND I DON'T SEE ANY REASON TO CHANGE. I DO SEE THAT WHERE PEOPLE GET PARANOID, SH*T HAPPENS TO THEM. MY BEST FRIEND, DOUG DANIELS (HE OWNS A 348TS) IS PARANOID: LOCKS EVERYTHING, IS VERY, VERY CAUTIOUS. SH*T HAPPENS TO HIM ALL THE TIME, WE USED TO JOKE THAT HE HAD AN INVISIBLE TARGET ON HIS BACK. I'VE EITHER BEING DOING SOMETHING RIGHT FOR MANY DECADES, OR I'VE BEEN VERY LUCKY FOR A LONG TIME. EITHER WAY, NO REASON TO CHANGE. I DO OWN A PISTOL, BUT SINCE I GOT OUT OF THE ARMY, I'VE NOT REALLY WANTED POSSESSION OF A FIREARM, THEY BRING BACK TOO MANY BAD MEMORIES. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Junior Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 96 Registered: 12-2001 |
Paul, I have a permit to carry as well and recommend you just let them have the car. I would only draw if I had absolutely no other choice. Too many variables I cannot control out on the road. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1935 Registered: 2-2001 |
Paul, Let them have the car. | ||
| paul s (Pes236)
Junior Member Username: Pes236 Post Number: 75 Registered: 3-2001 |
cant believe all these post - use some common sense - lock your cars - thats why cars come with locks and keys - guns - you can only shoot someone if your life is in danger - yes i think you should be able to own a gun but use your head - I have a 4 y.o. my gun is in the safe - yes difficult to get to if needed but not worth the risk of letting the kid get to it- but here is something i am a little torn over - have 98 355 spider - 100K+ car - taking the gun with for potential armed carjacking - have permit to carry ( yet rarely do - maybe once every 2 years ) thats a situation i am undecided on - any comments? | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1922 Registered: 2-2001 |
So, I guess you guys who don't lock your cars wouldn't order door locks on a new car if it were an option? Enough already, Good Luck on whatever you do. It's your car and I hope you never have a problem. As for me I'm sure I wouldn't be that lucky. And I live in a great "Location, Location." BRGDS | ||
| 1989 328 GTS (Vilamoura2002)
Member Username: Vilamoura2002 Post Number: 280 Registered: 9-2001 |
If any of you ever go to Seville. Leave the windows 25% open and never lock the car. Guess why .... :-( Criminality over there is horrible. There are gangs in motos to attack drivers and passengers on traffic lights or even when driving. I go very often there. I put my car in a Park and just go by taxi everywhere. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1904 Registered: 2-2001 |
Art, You seem like a well seasoned gentleman who has obviously done well for himself and holds a respected position in life and your profession. Can you honestly say that you don't think that leaving your doors unlocked is a invitation for vandalism and theft. A young kid in the neighborhood who is curious would open up the unlocked door and end up destroying something, and getting in trouble, before he would break a glass out. I am really not trying to beat a dead horse here, excuse the pun, but I can't see your logic. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 133 Registered: 6-2001 |
Magoo: I keep it open so they won't break the window to get in and find out that they can't start it without the electric key. Having had people break windows to steal things, I notice that you never get rid of all the glass, etc. I am also careful where I park the car, careful to cover it so that it doesn't stand out. Must work: haven't had a car broken into in over 30 years. Art | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1899 Registered: 2-2001 |
A thought just occured to me. Why do you leave your car unlocked? Is it more conveinient to open? Is it because it takes two keys, one to open and one for the ignition? Or are we trying to prove something to ourselves like "They wouldn't dare steal my Ferrari especially where I live." In my opinion the society we live in today isn't geared for that kind of thinking. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 554 Registered: 9-2001 |
Most of those under 15 year olds that were shot were shot by other teenagers, not by someone trying to protect himself and/or family. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Junior Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2001 |
Whoever leaves a 348 silver Spider unlocked with the keys in it, please email me your address. I am sure Sharon Tate felt it was safe in a nice neighborhood and no need to turn the alarm system on. Lets face it, there are some sick people in the world. One rarely runs into them, but it only takes once. I am an excellent shot, and a former consultant for Browning/Winchester. I do not own any firearms. Normally I do not get that mad, but I have been mad enough to kill someone if a firearm had been there. My vote is still as much protection as possible. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 501 Registered: 1-2001 |
art -- thanks for the clarification, but your original post said "unintentional" which is not what the 770 in Table 1 represents. My original thought was that if ~1000 <15 year old kids were getting unintentionally shot each year we'd be doing a lot more about it. (OK -- I'm done -- back to F!) | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 132 Registered: 6-2001 |
Steve: The actual number is 770 for those under 14, and I estimated the additional number from the other tables which show a higher rate of death for older teens that those would be 1000+. Those figures were contained in Table one of the source material. Hope that hopes. Sorry I wasn't more accurate. | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 500 Registered: 1-2001 |
art -- can you be more specific about where the data for "fatal under 15 year old group (unintentional) is in excess of 1000 per year" appears in that link? I read Table 5 to say it was 162 per year on average for those 5 years -- what am I missing?. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 131 Registered: 6-2001 |
Brett: The actual survey done by the CDC regarding gunshot wounds, etc. can be found at: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5002a1.htm You will notice that there were over 31K gunshot fatalities per year average for 93 to 98, with a 4 times incidence with injuries. The fatal under 15 year old group (unintentional) is in excess of 1000 per year. While those figures may not be totally accurate, they are probably ballpark and given the Center for Disease Control's tight controls over their research, you can go back to their source data to verify their results. Given that information, I would strongly doubt your magazine's figures. I would ask them for the source of their data, and then go back to see if that data can be verified. The number 43 seems way too low. Best regards | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 130 Registered: 6-2001 |
Bret: I agree with you 100% Art | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1598 Registered: 2-2001 |
Statistics are always very open to debate depending on who collects the information and how well they do it. Those statistics are accurate according to a major publication which obviously deals with this issue quite a bit, but by no means would I call them 100% accurate (no stat on this could be). To be honest I wouldn't believe any statistic offered by the governement because for the most part they're lying sacks of sh_t. (Art I'm not trying to in any way relate you to them so don't take it that way at all). You can see even in the senate statistics though the definition that I'm trying to draw between "kids" and actual kids. See how dramatically the statistics drop when they look at below 15 year olds, I would like to see how much they drop when they make the cutoff 12 instead. I think the statistics I have are probably much more based on very young children which is why they draw the parallel with drowning. Regardless of stats cause we could go on together and I'm sure we each have valid points to bring forth. I think the best thing to realize about this topic is that your car is not worth chasing after someone, even if you have a firearm and are capable with it. Someone in your house is a very different case, but not even the Fcar is worth risking your life for. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 130 Registered: 6-2001 |
Bret: I think the statistic you provided was inaccurate. I suggest you look at the following from the U.S. Senate: http://levin.senate.gov/releases/111601pr3.htm I think that guns injure far more than they save, and that given our society's anger, we as a society should be very very careful who we allow to possess them. Even on this chat, with very bright, successful people, you can see the anger and the willingness to use these weapons, without much thought as to what could happen if there was a mistake. As a country, our violent crime rate is the highest of any industrialized nation, and I think that that unfortunate 1st place is due in part to our laws about guns. BPG | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 44 Registered: 2-2001 |
Martin, If you are that open about security it probably will only be a matter of time until your open doors and keys in cars is discovered. One thing that puzzles me is that you don't seem to worry about security yet you want to electrify fences. Location, Location, these places are usually discovered in time by people who are looking to make one good hit. I live in a gated neighborhood in Palm Beach County and we have the best security, Wackenhut. A woman who was a maid at one of the other homes, broke into homes got everything together she wanted and opened the garage door and her boy friend drove in loaded up the car and they left. I happen to be in a great "Location" but why ask for it? BRGDS | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1476 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bret, that statistic is interesting. So only 43 ids died in one year? I guess that comes straight from Charlton Hestons desk. In that case the greater Miami area must have the most guns. We have at least 5 kids that die becasue of guns in houses where they do not belong. Besides one kid is too much. Wasn't it for every justified and real threat where a fire arm holder killed in self defense 43 kids die because of fire arms? Why is it that in Germany, take this as an example because I grew up there, there is virtually no gun crime. No bad guys have them because no regular guys have them either. And NO Germans are not friendlier people, they just do not have access. My neighbor sold his gun at a yard sale. I thought I am dying! I lease me rgular cars outside un-locked as well from time to time. Especially the Jeep. Sometimes I forget the close the garage door and the F is in there with the keys BTW always in the car. Thwn you can also enter the house without a problem. As ART said...Location.... | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 118 Registered: 11-2001 |
Guys it dosen't matter what kind car you have keep it locked. I had an old beater Honda that I got for $1k just to drive back and forth to work in. This thing was in bad condition, the paint was pealing, rust on the body, no headliner, one hub cap. Oh I treated this car aweful, the oil changes constisted of checking to see if there was still oil on the dip stick, and if there wasn't, add three quarts and that was the oil change. But I did get 256,000 miles out of it, bet it would have lasted longer if I gave a rats a** about the car. Anyway I never locked this car cause it was such a heap. I didn't even think that it would cross someone's mind to even steal it. Low a behold some guy did try to. Oh let me tell you I caught the guy in the driver seat looking through my jacket, in the ashtray, behind the sun visor, and under the seat for the keys. Watching this in disbelief I came to my senses, ran over to the car and started fist fighting with the guy. I was soooo mad that after I choked the guy out I waited for him to wake up so that we could go for round two, he wisely declined. I did feel bad later cause this poor dude could fight very well, but many have said "that's what he gets". All this nonsence could have been avoided if I had just kept the car locked. So LOCK YOUR CAR! | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 804 Registered: 2-2001 |
Second rule of engagement, keep a throwdown. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
New member Username: Boozy Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2001 |
Another story: My stepbrother was in college and saw someone stealing his 3000gt and ran out to confront them. He took one bullet in the chest and it ricocheted off his shoulder blade through both lungs and killed him. I love my car but no car is worth my life. If someone tries to steal my car they can have it. If they come into my house armed that's another story. From what I learned in a concealed weapons course you may only use deadly force to protect your life or someone else's life. It makes good sense to me. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1573 Registered: 2-2001 |
I always lock the Ferrari, but the Jeep isn't a flashy car at all. It's black so it doesn't stand out. It's in excellent shape (body, engine, coolant, trans) and based on the work I've done to it, it's probably a nicer jeep than 95% of them out there, but not flashy. It's a sleeper of the jeep community I guess. My point, no one would steal it when they could go around the corner and take a shot at the guys F50 (although I hear he has a $100K alarm system so they might have quite the time). I wouldn't leave the 308 unlocked unless it was in my driveway during the day or I was just running into the deli or something like that. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 35 Registered: 2-2001 |
Frank, I wouldn't want to go before a jury with that kind of evidence. No witness, he had no weapon and he was the older son,24yrs., of a business associate who lived in the same area. Seriously wouldn't you think the cards were stacked against someone whose defense was, "Oh, he charged me and I was afraid of losing my life so I shot a man who was unarmed." Also it could be said that I took the gun out there for the purpose of killing him. No thanks I think it turned out for the best. But as I said in my home with my family I will not hesitate to put him down permanetly. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 127 Registered: 6-2001 |
Magoo: I guess of lot of this is dependant upon where you live. I've lived in the same place for a very long time, and know that its safe. Because of the way its situated, professional criminals don't come here, its too hard to get out of, and there is very little access to the crime of opportunity type of crime, because of the limited access. And yes, I do leave the house unlocked on occassion, and in 20+ years have yet to regret it. As the realtors say: LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 34 Registered: 2-2001 |
Peter, Just for the record, This was one of those nights when my wife forgot to lock the car when she came in. I always lock my cars and would never leave my Ferrari or any fine car parked on a street overnight. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
New member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 17 Registered: 9-2001 |
Magoo, in Georgia you could have shot him as he was charging you. Here, you can use deadly force when you reasonably believe that you are in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 33 Registered: 2-2001 |
Tom, It is great to look at hind sight and see what happened and what could have happened. But I will say that my family and my home are another situation. I will never think twice nor will I have any remorse about the consequenses of what will happen if a person breaks into my home while my family and I are there. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 279 Registered: 9-2001 |
Great story Magoo. Its great to think back about the things that happened in the past where you wonder what you were thinking. In the end its those experiences we learn a lot from | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1516 Registered: 12-2000 |
I can't believe some of you leave your cars unlocked. To make it easier for the thiefs, next time, leave the keys in it as well... CRAZY!  Do you leave your front doors unlocked at your house as well? That's even crazier!!! And if you do, don't post that fact on a public forum like this (open invitation...). | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2001 |
Well, Let me tell you a true story. A guy was trying to steal a Cadillac I once had. It was at night so I went outside and pulled a few shots off in the air. This got his attention. But when he got out of the car, knowing I had a gun, he charged me screaming, kill me. I threw the gun as far as I could because I knew if I shot and killed him outside I could be charged with murder. We rolled around a bit and finally I restrained him. My wife called the cops. They came arrested him and found narcotics on him. I am sure this is why he charged me. No one thinking rationally would do that. If he had been in my home it would have been a different story. The next question in your mind should be why did you take the gun outside with you? Young, stupid, I should have called the cops from in the house. But at least in that last moment I knew not to shoot him outside of the house. What is worse is that he was unarmed. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1564 Registered: 2-2001 |
Guns and Ammo. Although they may be firearms oriented I doubt they make up statistics. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 122 Registered: 6-2001 |
Brett: I'd be interested in knowing the source of your statistics. I do work in the system, and I see the occassional shooting. A lot of what we hear and see are antidotal material, often embellished as the story is told and retold. However, guns are used for violence, and at least in California, with restrictive laws, account for a substantial amount of violence, ususally against the owner of the weapon. Please let me know the source of your material, is it local or national? Thanks Art | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1558 Registered: 2-2001 |
On an interesting note, did any of you see in the latest Forza that an originally silver (repainted dark red) F50 was stolen. I guess they're looking for leads. Seems like it might be a little hard to hide a car like that, but I'm sure it can be done. Back to this topic. How many 11 year olds break into garages at 3 in the morning? 98% of the time that a gun is simply brandished the attacker will flee. Only 2% of the time will the attacker either try and fight or will the victim have to fire the gun. 42 kids (real kids, not 17 year old drug dealers) died from gun related incidents last year. To put that in perspective, 43 died from drowning in 5 gallon pails last year. I remember once listening to the police chief of my town throw the bull with my dad at lunch one time, his quote stuck with me forever. "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6." I'll take my chances with having a gun. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 797 Registered: 2-2001 |
If anyone breaks into my garage, they are probably not there to cop a look at a car. By the time you ascertain the reason for the entry you will probably be dead and your wife can then face his whim. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 121 Registered: 6-2001 |
Martin: Just noticed your question about rape. Clearly the rape of one's wife is different than theft of property. I've been married almost 32 years, and it would be difficult to imagine not having my wife around, or injuried by a rape. My Ferrari is a mass produced vehicle, which would upset me if it were not there, but if I worked hard, replacable. Deadly force (such as a gun) is useable when someone's life is in danger (that included an attempted or completed rape). My point about the kid and the gun is that, if the kid is there, how do you know that he did break in? People do make mistakes, and the death of a kid over a piece of property is probably not the right result, despite what a few people are saying. An adult, I'm not sure, but I am clearly sure about a young kid: deadly force isn't appropriate. All states have laws regarding what a reasonable apprehension of bodily injury is and is not. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2001 |
10/4 Art. Sounds a bit better. The first image was goodbye Ferrari. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 119 Registered: 6-2001 |
Magoo: The 355 stays in my garage under cover. When I take it out, I don't lock it. Since it sits behind either the Audi or the Jeep in the garage, it would take some kind of miracle for someone to get it out. I live on a dead end, on San Francisco Bay, so that we have very little crime, a criminal would have to come by boat or risk a one way exit to get away, so that in the 28 years that I've lived here, there have been zero burgularies, zero valdalism, zero crime. I've been not locking my cars on the street for over 30 years and had no valdalism, no thefts, zero crime. I do take care where I park the Ferrari. I generally try to park it where I can see it, and I am careful about who I park next to, avoiding those cars with obvious signs of distress, such as collision damage, etc. | ||
| Neville Pugh (Nevpugh68)
New member Username: Nevpugh68 Post Number: 18 Registered: 7-2001 |
You dont lock your cars ?!? That's an instant insurance invalidation over here ... if you dont lock the car, dont expect to get a penny out of the insurance if it goes walkies. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
New member Username: Fred Post Number: 335 Registered: 2-2001 |
When I go somewhere in the Ferrari I don't lock it. I don't keep valuables in it. I figure if they really want in the car it is not a hard car to get into so I would rather they not break anything to get in. Also I try to park it in sight and usally am not away from it very long. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1523 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have to admit that I almost never lock the jeep (even sitting outside over night) at home or if I'm running in most stores. At the mall or school I do, but that's about it. The Ferrari I lock at night, but the vast majority of the time it spends outside under its cover. I guess I'm pressing my luck here. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2001 |
Art, I hate to say it but I think one of these nights your luck is going to run out. You actually park you Ferrari, unlocked, on the street overnight? How do you sleep? No garage? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
New member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1470 Registered: 5-2001 |
Art, if the 11 year old breaks into my garage to just look at my car he deserves to be shot. As for not killing for property, well, would we kill if somebody just rapes your wifes? After all it is JUST a rape. As for we can not defend ourselfes in our homes, in FLA at least the crime of theft for example in your home is charged higher than if somebody steals from you on the street. So I guess our homes are held higher than when we are in public. Let me be clear about something. I do not own a gun, I do not believe that anybody has a given right to carry one. Ghez, we are in the 21st Century not in the wild West. If you do not like somebody you log into his computer and steal all his money from his accounts. Thats how things are done today! I know of a legal electric fence right here in FLA. Around the Ft. Lauderdale Auto Auction you have a electric fence. BTW, as for signs donw her ein FLA all you have to post is spanish LOL nobody can read english anyways. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 116 Registered: 6-2001 |
I wonder how much of the protection issue is Karma. When I was working my way through Law School I had a 1966 VW. I had bought it new, and didn't order a radio with it. I had an old transistor radio that I hung from the rear view mirror. I came out from work one day, and found the driver's side window broken, so that someone could steal the $3.00 radio. Cost me about $25.00 to replace the window (pre-inflation days). Since then, I have never locked my vehicle, thinking, if I had valuables, I put them out of sight, and thus didn't provide temptation. When I park my Ferrari (unlocked) on the street, I put a plain brown cover over it (obtained from my first Ferrari, a 1990 348TS), and since I have owned Ferraris since 1998, have never had a problem. Makes you think, huh? | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2001 |
One addition to Art355s comment. There has been many a Auto. Repossesion person shot and sometimes killed while repoing a car. The guy who did the shooting will definetly have a problem unless the car was behind locked doors in his home. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
New member Username: Magoo Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2001 |
Frank, I couldn't agree more. If he's outside my house that's one thing, but if he's in my home he's had it. | ||
| Alberto (Aabreu)
New member Username: Aabreu Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2001 |
For what it is worth, I have a sensor light facing my garage door, plus I put a padlock on the door. Naturally, I have to unlock the door before I hit the remote, but if they are going to get in, I'll make it as hard as I can for them. I have a side door that I had a 1/8th inch steel plate welded onto, plus it has a deadman on the inside. There is no way that can be pried open. I am also thinking of putting an alarm (just to make a lot of noise) on the garage door. I am also going to put some sort of lock in the car, like the gate vault talked about in another thread, or one of those things that locks the clutch pedal in the "up" position. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
New member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2001 |
I am ex-military and gun owner too and would not hesitate to shoot to kill to protect the life of me or my family. But for a car ... I would give them the keys and recommend where they could get it serviced. I would then call the police and my insurance agent. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 796 Registered: 2-2001 |
Being an ex military person I probably am a little colder than many of you, but yes, I would feel bad if I killed my 11 year old neighbor but if he is in my locked house without permission he's paid for. There are plenty of 11 year olds with guns that would kill for fun. This has become a sick world that requires a new way, and not necessarily better, way of thinking. | ||
| Neville Pugh (Nevpugh68)
New member Username: Nevpugh68 Post Number: 17 Registered: 7-2001 |
Whilst this is all very interesting reading, unfortunatly most of this cannot apply to my case .... I live in the UK. This means it's illegal to own a gun unless there's a really really damn fine reason (e.g. hunter, gun club member (very rare)). There was a well publicised news item a couple of years ago .... two burglars broke into a farmers house, the farmer feared for his life when confronted with the two miscreants, and shot and killed one of them with his shotgun. He is now serving life in jail for murder. The other burglar got off with nothing. Go figure .... And a comment on insurance ? Not good to reply on in the UK .... first if you make a claim you can pretty much resign yourself to double premium next year, and secondly the insurance company will fight tooth and nail to only give you 66% of the true vehicle value (personal hate, insurance companies suck :-) | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
New member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 84 Registered: 12-2001 |
It was not my intention to imply that killing someone to defend property was ok. I was simply saying that in my sate of primary residence(Oklahoma) you can legally shoot someone who breaks into your home brandishing a weapon. I also, agree with Frank about insurance. That is my first and favored line of defense. I do not believe in "man traps" either. I do believe in a well armed and protected home. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 115 Registered: 6-2001 |
The basic problem with the shoot first and ask questions later is the problem with making a mistake. When we follow the shoot first rule, what do we do about the neighbor's 11 year old who just wanted to look at the car. I'm sure the most rabid of us would feel bad if we shot the neighbor's kid. The best solution to the theft problem is good insurance coverage. As Frank Parker said traps are illegal, and for d*mn good reason, they sometimes get the wrong person. You are allowed to shoot someone if you believe that your life or your family's life are in danger, you are not allowed to use deadly force where you believe that you are in danger of losing property. Again the reason is that sometimes people make mistakes, and dealy force should only be used where you believe a life is at stake. | ||
| paul s (Pes236)
New member Username: Pes236 Post Number: 74 Registered: 3-2001 |
i have motion detector, siren , and insurance for if they try to break into garage - if they break into home looking for keys - I have .380 - unfortunately i agree with the lawyers here - didnt think you could shoot someone over property - but they break into your home with you in it - i thought u could shoot them | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
New member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2001 |
Sorry for the double posts but I can't find the edit icon | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
New member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2001 |
"man traps" are illegal in every state in the U.S.A.. You can not use deadly force to protect property. Deadly force is only allowed when you are in imminent danger of serious bodily harm or death. Buy an alarm and insurance. Do not risk your own life or freedom for a car. You can' drive a Ferrari from the grave or jailhouse. | ||
| Michael (Mtabije)
Junior Member Username: Mtabije Post Number: 218 Registered: 10-2001 |
Lots of motion detector spotlights with battery backup, scary dogs, and a cell phone. That's the least amount of protection I'm willing to live with. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
New member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 791 Registered: 2-2001 |
I carry a S&W Model 29 44 Magnum just like his and don't think I wouldn't use it in the right situation. I also have a permit for it. I have no use for a thief. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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Ed, You are starting to sound like "Dirty Harry." | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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I had rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. I am armed and dangerous everywhere I go. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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Tyler, Since you live in the U.S. If the trial ever got to Federal court, regardless of your state law, that you shot a man and it was not in self defense of yourself or your family your ass would be hanging out there for serving time or even worse. BRGDS | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
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Magoo Unfortunately you're right about the sign. However in the state of my primary residence we have "make my day" laws which allow me to shoot and kill any trespassers. I do not relish the idea of taking life, but if someone violates the sanctity of my home I will deliver a death sentence. Also, we have carry-concealed laws. I do carry a gun with me quite often. Most of my associates do as well. I have to tell you, burglary and assualt are pretty rare around here. Living in an official "culture-free" zone has it's disadvantages to be sure, but small perks like these help me sleep better. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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Martin, I love your video camera thread abut watching them when they grab hold of that 220. You and I know that will not work. It may work once but then it's all over for you. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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What Martin says is what he would do. We would all like to do this but in reality you will loose everything you have plus possibillity of serving time if there is a death. Example. Post a sign that says do not touch the garage because of high current. How many languages are you going to post this sign and even if you cover all languages you are liable for installing a trap. A bad attorney will have a good day in court on this one. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
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As you guys have heard I'm sure, there are scanners that can open your electric garage doors. Here in Fla. they are being used and many things are being stolen including automobiles. Once you are in you can do what you like. Load up the car, raise the door and take off. What I did was went to Home Depot and bought a remote control device, made by Heath Kit, and installed it between the door motor cord and the 110 volt plug in the ceiling. Now overnight or if I am going on vacation or not going to be home for sometime I use the Heathkit wall control to disable the motor from working on any signal. When I want to take the car out all I do is turn on the door motor by the remote then I push the door button. It does give some peace of mind. Oh I forgot to tell you that I installed a motion detector from my garage to my alarm system which I can disable from outside the house. Paranoid, I guess but you never know what these bastards will try next. Also I am insured by Smith & Wesson 357 Mag.. | ||
| djmonk (Davem)
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Here's an effective warning "trespasser's will be shot, survivors will be shot again." i am not the author just the messinger. | ||
| djmonk (Davem)
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Neville you could install padlocks thru the frame rails of the garage doors so that rollers hit them when opened, of course your garage door remote is now useless. Also perhaps one of those x-10 remotes camera's taping to vcr. Remember to put warning sticker's to that effect on door to warn them that u r serious about keeping your possesion's hope they move on to easier prey. p.s my alaskan malamute would have been perfect, oft confused for a wolf | ||
| Chris_N_Chicago (Chris_N_Chicago)
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I often rent out my mother in law. She will scare off any burgler and eat any dog in sight.... rates are reasonable. Not housetrained, though.... | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
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I rely on H&K and Kimber for protection when I'm around. When I'm not I rely on insurance. I welcome thieves....I like to target shoot. | ||
| Danny R. West (Dan_West348ts)
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I have a "very smart" German Shepard that sleeps by the 348. He is well trained to not accept food from anyone who is not a family member. Neighbors can come around him and he acts passive, especialy around children. If anyone walks into the garage he growls first as a warning. If you do not heed the warning he will eat your ass alive. He is professionally trained. I do not think I will have problems with thieves in my garage. Martin's idea is a good one. However, I have heared of cases where people in the past have set up rigged shotguns for intruders. That also worked very well. The problem with that is that the homeowner was prosicuted(sp) for murder. A car, no matter how well we love them, is not worth time in prison. Dan | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
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a random opinion against LoJack: i had lojack in a car that was stolen. lojack is only useful if the thieves intend to ship the car in toto somewhere. then it can be found again. most car thefts are for parts, and for this it is not terribly useful. the problem (i had) is that activating the lojack is incredibly non-trivial. scenario: you're out to dinner with your wife. you park your car in a garage downtown. you come back from dinner and it's gone. you call the police and tell them. they tell you you have to get to a police station (you don't have a car, mind you). once you're at the police station you have to prove that you own the car. how many of you carry your title or registration or lease paperwork with you all the time? once you're at the station, filed a report, and proven that you own the car THEN the transponder will be activated. of course this renders the whole thing nearly useless. by the time my transponder was turned on, the car had been stripped and abandoned. they would have found the car anyway (it's not like thieves drive these things miles into abandoned farmland). IF your car's been stolen to be transported (eg: out of the country) then you've got a fighting chance with lojack. this was my experience. i've never bought it since. this was a while ago, so maybe activating it isn't so stupid now, but i kinda doubt it (otherwise people would activate each other's lojack as a practical joke). doody. | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
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I went to remove what I thought was the remainder of a cell phone from a previous owner last week, and discovered that my car has some kind of vehicle locater device installed. It's made by Mitsubishi, has an antenna and battery backup, and says it's compatible with the 'Teletrac' system. Does anyone know anything about this type of product? I don't even know where to start. | ||
| Mark (Study)
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Speeking of LoJack... at the electronics show this year I saw a wrist watch made for kids that you lock on their wrist and if they get lost you can find them with your home computer and a GPS satelite. Same as Lo-Jack but you do the search yourself like the police do now with the older Lo-Jack system which I think still uses radio trianglulation instead of real-time GPS. I don't have kids. So I imeadtly thought.. gee I can leave one in my car hidden. Then you could watch your car durring the police chase and watch the map as it shows your car turning and racing throught the streets of town...hoping the guy doesn't crash. LOL Probably a lot cheaper then LoJack but not on the market yet. You can get a Micky Mouse, Power Ranger, or what ever kids cartoon watch you want. Looks real classy in red plastic. But as I write this I'm sure everyone from Lap-top computer manufactors to car companies should be thinking about installing this technolgy in any high price items. Not a good time to be a crook. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
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Get a LoJack. It is a device that they install somewhere on your car so that the police can track where the car is if it should get stollen. I think they cost around $800. You only pay for the unit no monthly charges. But you do get charged if they have to activate it to find your car. Listen if someone wants to get your car bad enough they will. | ||
| Mark (Study)
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I saw something in the DuPont Registry a few years ago... It would be perfect. They had a 3 foot high concrete piller that you drop into a hole behind your car and it locks in place. ( have to cut a hole in your garage floor, but its not much more hassel then installing a in-ground safe, no big deal). Anyway the piller looks like its a few hunderd pounds and had wheels and all to wheel it away. Very cool invention ( I travel a lot and would be neat when I'm away ) Company must have gone out of business. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
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We have an alarm system, a 100lb female Rotti, and a 223lb male English Mastif... No problems! | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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You better not electrify the fence and you better leave a light on in the garage because if the burgler is shocked or falls in your garage he can sue you. | ||
| Charles T (Charles)
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My 150 lb Black Great Dane is an excellent safeguard! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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okay, so you put a little sign next to the opener: Danger, do not touch, you will be blown away! on a serious note, if you have a gate in front of our garage that is closed and you have a sign warning people not to touch the garage door because of high current, you should be fine. 110V is probably enough. Maybe half will do as well. My option would be 480V...smoke 'em these bastards. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
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before you implement martin's effective and amusing idea, you might want to have a talk with local law enforcement about how far you can go with stuff like that IMO, the house alarm is the way to go. both my garage doors are wired into the system. even if they cut the power and phone lines your home alarm should have full battery backup, so it'll scream like a banshee. i have a window in my garage as well that's outfitted with a very high quality glassbreak detector. you can get those super-loud in-car alarms that cause hearing damage and physical pain, but they aren't kosher everywhere (i believe) and you always run the risk of injuring yourself if you accidentally set it off (or your wife does, or one of the kids, etc.). i DO like martin's idea though! doody. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
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Try puttin 220V onto the garage door handle. Get a metal mess outside and link that to the negative pole and hook the positive to the inside of the garagedoor handle. Then get a video camera outside and watch them fly off your gagae door when they break in, try to break in that is On the latches that latch into the side of the garage you can put an extra lock or just a bolt so the latch can not be pryed out of the sides. Hard to explain. I have that on my warehouse. I still think the 220V is the way to go | ||
| Neville Pugh (Nevpugh68)
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A second alarm just for the garage was an idea I did have. Thing is, I also want something more to try and stop the little bu99ers getting in there in the first place. An infra red alarm inside the garage is too late ... they're already inside ! A teledial system is a good idea, but not much use in my case .... I work 1 hour away from home, by the time I got home they could be long gone :-) And sorry, a dog ain't much use either .... we've got 6 cats !! (hmmm .... could be interesting ....) | ||
| William_Huber (Solipsist)
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Man, I hate thieves!!!!! I friend of mine had his Jaguar V12 broken into when it was locked up in the garage. The thief used a GM auto jack to damage the garage door to pry it open. All that was stolen was the custom stereo system which they went after by just tearing it out. I agree with ED, get a Big Dog that eats thieves! | ||
| 1989 328 GTS (Vilamoura2002)
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How sad to read your comment. Have you got infrared alarm? These alarms have batteries and they are very secure. If someone try to cut the wires, they turn on. Make a infrared with teledial. Teledial system rings to 4/6 telephone numbers of your choice and informs you that the alarm system was activated. Hope this helps | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
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A Big Ass Dog. | ||
| Neville Pugh (Nevpugh68)
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Bit of a shock last night, was pottering in the garage and I realised that there was something wrong with the garage door on the 308's side. Someone's had a go at jimmying it .... basically there's two rods which come out from the handle in the middle of the door to the top left and the top right. In one corner someone had been having a go with a screwdriver or something - one of the rods had been forced out of it's socket (if they'd done the same to the other side the door would then be open), the wood frame is a bit mangled, so is the metal corner of the door too. The door is bowed now, it wont sit flat. Luckily the house alarm sensor (integral garage) is on that corner, so my guess is that they set the house alarm off and that scared them off ? Now, my question to the list is this : what do you guys and gals do for garage security ? Any clever or fancy ideas ? I've got the house alarm, and the car itself has a top-of-the-range immobiliser, but this has given me a little scare. What else can I do to improve security ? |