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Message |
ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 118
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 1:41 pm: | |
yes pascal i would like to see your car sometime. send me an email and we can set a time. thx |
Pascal A. J. Maeter (Maeter)
New member
Username: Maeter
Post Number: 20
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 1:20 pm: | |
I have a late 1996 car and I can tell you they did not fix the window sealing issues! I have had Graypaul in the UK take care of that at my last service and it is not yet perfect. It also seems that a lot of the passenger side windows stick and you will sometimes notice strikes on that window. Having said that, there is no better car to drive from London to the South of France. I do it every year and arrive with a big smile on my face. I would also recommend you check that the car comes with the custom made luggage as it adds dramatically to the capacity of the boot/trunk. My car car is Nero with Crema interior, a great combination, if I may say so myself. I can also tell you that it has proven to be very reliable and the little faults are easily forgotten when you realize what a unique piece of machinery it is. On the coolant side, the only time I have had an issue is when I was low on cooling fluid! The bubling of the center console has happened to me as well because the car was left in the sun for too long, and the heat deformed the plastic covering. It seems, according to Ferrari UK, that you can replace that part only, not the entire console. Happy driving when you get it. If you live in London I will be happy to show you my car. |
ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 114
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 11:43 am: | |
ok, since the initial question at the beginning of the week, i have had about 20 cars thrown at me from a variety of dealers in italy (thanks again mr. albright) and germany. i was even briefly offered gerhard berger's ex car but turned out it had already been spoken for - too bad. the prices vary all over the board depending on location, and i can expound on that later if anybody is interested. but one of the dealers, who was more talkative than the others said some interesting things that i wanted check with the board:
- he said the automatic transmission was very problematic and i was much better off with a manual. now he was also trying to sell me a manual, but nevertheless has anybody else heard this?
- he said that by 96 they had sorted out the window sealing issue, and if its not done on the one i get, they have the 456gtm rubber seal they can fit on it. was there anything else about the gt windows that didn't work right?
- and the question nobody seems to know the answer to - what are the differences between 96 and 97 models? |
Ming Cheng (Onlinesys)
New member
Username: Onlinesys
Post Number: 35
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 9:47 am: | |
Tx. Kevin for all the useful info. I reckon it is abnormal to have coolant temp. close to the red-line. Will test drive another 94 456GT this weekend to compare. |
Kevin Johnson (Jammy)
New member
Username: Jammy
Post Number: 35
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 8:16 am: | |
Hi Ming,
The car you drove sounds like a wrong 'un.
Just been home to check. The cooling fans kick in when the water temp hits 190 F. This happens quite easily; cruising at <40mph or waiting at a traffic light. The temp never goes above this mark (needle straight up, halfway around dial). Oil temp varies 150- 175 F depending on how hard I'm driving. Your ambient temp in HK is higher than here in UK so I would guess the cooling system works harder, but the bottom line is that in my experience, what happened on your test drive is not normal.
Common problems I had heard of are window sealing & rear shocks. Hadn't heard the air con control one before. Chap I know here in the UK had the window sealing problem on his '95 456. Ferrari shipped it back to the factory and fixed it free of charge a couple of years ago (ie out of warranty).
Hope this helps
Kevin
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Ming Cheng (Onlinesys)
New member
Username: Onlinesys
Post Number: 34
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 10:12 pm: | |
Tx. Eric & Kevin for the useful info. The 456 I test drove really got the Sealing problem with the B piller.You can actually see the Window is shaking when you close the door. How about coolant temp. on you guys 456? Are they close to the bottom of the red-line after 15-20 minutes hard drive?
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Kevin Johnson (Jammy)
New member
Username: Jammy
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 4:17 pm: | |
Recall that someone recounted a similar comment to Franks on an earlier thread. I too had heard horror stories about 456s before I bought one. Thing is, everyone I know who actually owns one, and to whom I can actually talk, has had few if any expensive problems. Could be when something does go wrong, it's more expensive to fix? All I know is that so far, and touching wood, my 456 running costs have been lower than owners of older V8 models. Personally, I think this is a fabulous car.
Ross- November 95 is almost '96 and a manual gearbox (same as mine) was originally a cheaper option. 45K miles is a LOT. |
Eric Hawley (Eric)
New member
Username: Eric
Post Number: 21
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 1:17 pm: | |
A '95 456GT was my first fcar, purchased about two years ago. I looked at several examples while searching for my car, and found a few things in common to look out for. Most important, almost as important as thorough inspection, drive the car. After driving the first car, I was so overwhelmed, and awed, that I thought it was the best thing I'd ever experienced. And at that point, it was (first Fcar I had ever driven). But then I drove another that had been better cared for. There was a pretty significant difference in how the car rode, felt, and just a general feeling of tautness. The car I finally bought was a few thousand dollars more, but when I started to add up the little things that would need fixing, the price difference up front was worth it.
Things I noticed specifically:
The windows are a real pain to get aligned properly. I think there was a factory upgrade/retrofit that helped, but I've been in some that even with the upgrade the windows did not seal at the B pillar. A good, conscientious shop can make them seal correctly, so don't settle for a car where the windows don't seal. Drive the car at speed, and lok carefully at the seal: you shouldn't be able to see a gap between the glass and the seals.
ECUs - Over two years time, I've had to replace brake system ECUs, fuel system ECUs, and other assorted engine management controls. Maybe this was an anomoly of my car, but I tend to believe the problem is inherent in a limited production model, and is best discovered by driving the car frequently and hard, while still under warranty - make Ferrari pay for their R&D/QA issues. So maybe a car with higher mileage might be a good thing here. Mine was a low mileage car, and while it was pristine, it also had several little hidden issues I had to resolve.
The A/C panel on the console will delaminate with use. For some reason, the control gets really hot in steady use, and the graphics appear to have been applied to a thin film plastic laminate, glued to the module. Every early 456 I've seen that has had any real use has bubbles forming where the glue is maybe bubbling and the lamination is lifting. I used my car a lot (18,000 miles in 2 years), and the control panel for the A/C got real ugly. Looking at the parts manual, I discovered that the whole control had to be replaced, not just the face, about US$1000 for the part alone.
After all is said and done, there were no real huge surprises for me. I expected to have to pay some serious $ to maintain the car, and was not disappointed there. But I was rewarded with a car that never failed to bring a grin to my face. I only just traded my 95 in a couple months ago, on a new 456M GT. And I'm definitely making that warranty work for me. I have just over 6,200 miles on it so far. I highly recommend the 456.
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Ming Cheng (Onlinesys)
New member
Username: Onlinesys
Post Number: 32
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 12, 2002 - 5:47 am: | |
Tx. Chris. I reckoned a higher maintenace cost on any F-cars as well as other exotics is common. I also agreeded pre-purchase inspection is critical for buying a used F-car privately. That's the main reason why ferrarichat.com is a very useful source of info. for newcomer like me.
Any pros & cons experience from any 456GT owners are welcome |
Chris A. (Asianbond)
New member
Username: Asianbond
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 11:57 pm: | |
Ming, I would not read too much into the various comments about high cost of maintaining a 456. I assume you had already factor in higher budget in maintaining a F-car. Needless to say it will cost more to maintain than a Honda or MB for that matter, but then you're comparing apples with oranges, so that is a faulty argument. It's like saying I want to drive a ferrari but only am willing to pay Honda service costs. Get real!
Regarding whether a 456 is inherently one of the most expensive Ferraris to maintain I think that all depends on the specific car you buy and how lucky you are with exotics, so it is definitely a case by case situation. Even if the factory prescribed maintenance cost more for a 456, it does not mean choosing a lower cost F-car would prove cheaper to maintain in the long run. Buying a abused 328 may cost you more to maintain than a well kept 456. Look at what Peter spent on his 86 Mondial, I bet you all the Mondial guys on this site will claim that their cars are one of the lowest cost to maintain, yet if you buy one needing work it's going cost you no matter which model it is.
I've had a 94 Porsche 911 for five years that never gave me problems and also like you I had a 91 BMW 750il that ran fine, however, if you ask the lay person, they will tell you to stay away from those cars bcause of high repair costs. Out of all people you should know what it is to own an exotic and repair cost, you own a Maserati Ghibli, there is probably less than a handful of guys on this site that owns that exotic Maserati.
Your pre-purchase inspection and process will be the determinative factor in whether you will get a good car. But sometimes no matter how manys extra steps you take and how right everything seems some people are just darn unlucky and may suffer mechanical failure. So if you want piece of mind then buy from a autorized dealer with a warranty and paid a premium or you can take a chance on a private car, do your homework and save HKD100-200K, and if things go bad take the money you saved and put it right back into the car. You're taking a gamble buying private but in my mind it's a no-lose situation.
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sfulmer (98f355gts)
New member
Username: 98f355gts
Post Number: 10
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 1:37 pm: | |
In terms of the maintenance - I saw a '95 with 30k miles at a chicago dealer for an asking price of 109K. I asked my dealer if it would be a good replacement for my clk430 and he said "no." He said the maintenance and reliability would be too much of a factor for an "everyday" car. He tried to steer me towards the new Maserati coupe (which I don't care for). I've heard the v-12's are much more expensive to maintain than the v-8's. |
ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 108
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 10:30 am: | |
david albright you are a saint !!! i was searching for a website like that. thanks a million! my dealer was in there with a couple, (the last gta on the list is the car in question). just called 2 of the others and they are looking for me now. fantastic. |
Ming Cheng (Onlinesys)
New member
Username: Onlinesys
Post Number: 31
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 10:23 am: | |
You are really scaring me Frank as I am seriously heading to get a 456GT. I test drove a 94 Manual with Blue and Tan interior with 16k miles but get a bit worried about the high coolant temp. (very close to the red-line bottom after 15-20 min drive. Is this normal?)
It costs US$70k and I am going to try another this weekend with the same age, color and with 18k miles for US$65k. (price for used f-cars are definitely cheaper over here in Hong Kong)
Sorry for creating more questions than advice for Ross |
David Albright (Dalbright)
Member
Username: Dalbright
Post Number: 347
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 10:15 am: | |
Ross, here are some 456's for sale in Italy. I look at this site all the time for pricing. This is the site where I got the list of Italian dealers. Good luck. Can't believe the prices...Amazing!
http://212.141.72.210/web/asm/Action.lasso?-Database=ASM.spaziRV.fp4&-Layout=DEV&-Response=09list.lasso&-maxrecords=15&-noresultserror=00noItems.lasso&-sortfield=SPorder&-sortorder=ascending&-sortfield=SPmdmonth&-sortorder=descending&-SortField=SPmarca&-SortField=SPmodello&-doscript.post=banner_trova01&SPOnLine=Si&SPSerieID=SE218&-Token.tipo=1&-Search
If link doesn't work, just got to http://www.autosupermarket.it and do the search from there. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 948
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 9:23 am: | |
Ross, he was not trying to sell me a car at all. He is the service manager not a sales weasel. My car was just there for an oil change and I noticed several 456s there with their engines out. He said that that was common for that model as they were a maintenace nightmare. |
ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 107
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 9:17 am: | |
whart, i live in london but buy in italy. to put pxs to the story, the price agreed for the gta was Euro 82k, the eventual sale price was E89k, the gt asking price is E101k, but think i can get it for around 85-90k in the end.
frank, i sure hope he was just trying to sell you a different car. sounds like very poor pr from a foa guy. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 947
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 8:42 am: | |
According to the service manager at FOA, the 456 is the most expensive modern Ferrari to own, period. He says that they break down all the time and that they are expensive to work on. His comment was something like that "...a 456 makes a Lambo seem cheap to own..." |
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart
Post Number: 323
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 8:32 am: | |
Where are you located? I would think the price of 456's would continue to go down, not up. Good ones can't be that hard to find... did you check the FNA car locator to see what the authorized dealers have? FML? If you want, call Eddie Karem outside Phila. and use my name. He gets very straight cars, is not a low baller but you won't pay more for a really good one thru him. His # should be in Forza's directory, or the FML. |
ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member
Username: Ross
Post Number: 105
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 11, 2002 - 7:39 am: | |
since gazumping me on the 96 456gta (tdf blue over camel) with 15k miles on it (see scumbag dealer thread), they have come back with a '95 (november, he keeps stressing to me for whatever reason) 456gt (titanio over crema) with 45k miles on it at a slightly higher price. the color combo on the 95 is actually quite stunning. he says that the higher price is due to the standard gearbox (automatics just don't sell well in italy), and the fact that they have done work on it for the (one) previous owner. this 'work' was replacing the backseats with those of the m model, same with the window mechanics. this car was sold to the original owner by this dealer and all the servicing was done there. he will probably throw in a years warranty as well.
so, my problem/question is should i get excited about a car that is a year older, and 30k more miles, and about $5k more expensive, than the automatic i missed. and how concerned should i be about the highish mileage if all of the services have been done etc.
i'll throw this in as well: thanks to the person who gave me the dealer list for italy, i have called 4 other dealers in the general area and found that there are only 2 other 456's in the general area and they are 98's with about 40k miles each but prices 50pct higher. in other words there aren't too many to choose from, and for a long list of reasons i need to have this car purchased and registered before july 31st.
anybody have any advice for me? |
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