| Author |
Message |
Tenney (Tenney)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 9:08 am: | |
Sounds like a good way to go about the install, Ernesto - and a good thing you received the correct hardware as, according to my dealer, bolts must be compatable with aluminum structure or corrosion can occur. Thanks for the feedback. |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 8:51 am: | |
Regarding the belts on the 360: I had my dealer order the brackets for the four-point belts when the car was ordered. When the car arrived, they installed the brackets and belts, so the car has both the standard belts and the four-point harnesses.
DOT does not like the four-points seatbelt option from Ferrari because it deletes the standard three-point belts, and they figure people just wont buckle up every time because of lazyness. |
J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2001 - 6:51 am: | |
I have to chime in on this debate. I was at this year's Cavallino event in Florida. There were two euro 360 spiders there. A sudden rain storm came. One of the spiders could not put the top up because of mechanical problems. The car's inside was soaked. I was standing next to a Ferrari dealer at the time. His comment was "the owner of that car will never get the top fixed at any FNA dealer." To add to the story, supposedly two eruo 360 spiders (who knows if these were the same cars) were sold in South Florida for $325k. No euro bargain there. Can you imagine paying $325k and having no warranty! |
Tenney (Tenney)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 11:47 pm: | |
On the other hand, Ernesto, turning around and flipping your 360 Spider for a 100K profit is a good way to remove yourself from any future preferred list at you dealer.
BTW - I asked in a prior post and am still curious how you were able to have your car delivered with the harnesses. I was told that the DOT is not a fan of these and therefore U.S. cars are not so-equipped. Am I misinformed or is there a way of getting around this? I am aware, for example, that ACR Vipers come with both conventional belts and harnesses - is this the case with your 360? |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 10:11 pm: | |
Yes yes, of course you are right in that the Euro 355 is a better deal than the US spec 355..
But you have to admit that there are other variables that other people will also find as important as the money you are saving up front. I know for a fact that my dealer and others dont treat all cars in the service dept the same... the ones who bought their cars there come first, and even jump over the other cars already in line.
Also, come buyer want to be first on tha list for the F60 or 360 spider or 550 F1. And the only way that is gonna happen is if you are a loyal customer. I can come back and argue that the extra $20k spent on the F355 spider earned you an early spot on teh 360 spider list. Then, you could make an easy $100k on that car if you flip it right away. We could argue it many ways.
Personally, for me to buy the euro spec car I would have to save more than $20k AND the car has to be scarse in the US.
Bottom Line: enjoy your car. You have a Ferrari. I know I am enjoying mine. |
Eric Ferrari Lover (Ericf355spider)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 9:47 pm: | |
Ernie,
Well your just as hell bent on saying that it isn't a good deal!! LOL. And no I don't need your approval.
It is just that I have only owned Ferraris two times in my life, once in the 80's and now. The Ferrari owners in the 80's were very different from Ferrari owners of today, they are so timid today compared to the owners that I new in the past. It is really surprising and shocking to me. I mean the level of fear that I detect from many of you all about Euro spec cars is incredible, listening intently to what ever your Ferrari dealer tells you, not able to tell if what the dealer tells you is the truth or propaganda. It is really strange, and I just haven't completely figured it out yet, but I will.
And maybe your comment about the F60 answers it all? The lack of a product the people desire makes the buyers of that product more compliant, that makes some sense. You mentioned being "loyal" to your dealer. This makes sense!
Ok so we agree on the depreciation factor, cool.
Then I would say that if I did something intelligent with the money I saved on the Euro car, like invest it(anywhere but the stock market), then the Euro would have been a better use of money?
Well you might be a better shopper than I am. Finding a 3600 mile car for $145k ain't gonna be easy!
And I don't want to sound like a constant Flamer (I am totally straight). But the Ferrari world has changed from when I first knew it, and the changes in attitudes toward Euro spec cars are negative, but they are negative without reason or logic, it is not honest. That gets me a little excited.
This whole "bash the Euro spec" is just a dealer smoke screen to protect the dealers wallet, of that I am sure. From listening to the dealer horror stories about the late model Euro spec cars you would think that the Euro cars were built in Taiwan, and certainly not in the same factory, side by side, these are world cars now. I probably won't even post my story if there wasn't so much B.S. flying around. |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 9:08 pm: | |
Hey, no need to insult here... I dont see why you are so hell bent on convicing everyone - If you feel you made the right decision, then just enjoy your Ferrari to the max, you dont really need our approval... or do you?
My point is that if they both depreciate at the same rate, then the "cost" of using them is the same. If you buy the euro 355 at $135K, then sell it at $100k when prices stabilize is the same as buying the US spec at $165k then selling at $130k... They both cost you $35k to enjoy for a couple of years -> These are just imaginary numbers, but both cars will depreciate at roughly the same rate.
The US spec 355 WILL be worth more on resale, as I would not pay the same for an original car than for a car that has been altered/modified from how it left the factory. The imported ones will never be worth the same as the local ones...
But, going back to your question, it is a really hard decision. I really dont think I would have a problem finding a 1999 355 Spider for about $145k. I found my 360 for list when everyone said it couldnt be done. Even if I had to pay $20k more, I would probably buy local. I think I would remain loyal to my dealer so he puts me on top of that list when the F60 comes out... :-) |
Tenney (Tenney)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 9:05 pm: | |
Eric, after reading the posts in this thread, it seems that you are looking for validation on the euro-import front and when it isn't forthcoming you become a bit defensive with the respondents.
My take is that the euro car will be more difficult to sell unless the asking price is dirt cheap. History has shown this to be true on euro ("gray-market" as they were once called) cars in the past. The few exceptions being models imported that were never offered for sale in a U.S. version.
My guess is that supply, demand, and the state of the economy will conspire to diminish the rush to import euro cars in the coming months (the 360 Spider model being perhaps the lone exception). Could be wrong on this, wouldn't be the first nor the last time.
So my answer to your question would be no, I would not be a customer for a euro-version current model anything at this point.
Hopefully, though, you bought your car to enjoy it as opposed to sell it. It sounds like you got a good one and, no doubt, you'll have a great time driving it. Therefore, it sounds like you got your money's worth. |
Eric Ferrari Lover (Ericf355spider)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 8:24 pm: | |
Ernesto,
Your simply brilliant!!
And if the cars depreciate at the same rate, then where is your argument? Do you honestly think the Euro will depreciate faster than the American? I have seen the Euro 328GTS VS. the American 328GTS depreciation comparisons and the spread between the cars stays pretty constant, so I am not getting your point.
Ernie, what is the simple answer to the simple question? What car would you buy? You still haven't done that. Come on what would you do?
ciao
Eric |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 8:12 pm: | |
It is just a matter of when you save the money. The euro is cheaper now, but will also be much cheaper on resale compared to FNA cars. When the market stabilizes - 355 prices are still so high because 360 prices have not stabilized - and 355 prices decrease to what they should be, the euro cars will also be worth much less. The US spec car will always be worth more.
If US spec 1999 355 spiders prices drop to about 130k - 150k, which I think is reasonable, then the euro cars will hover around 100k. You take the hit on resale... |
Eric Ferrari Lover (Ericf355spider)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 6:44 pm: | |
To all of you,
In my first posting what I forgot to mention was that I bought my car in October of 2000, when the stock market was good and the economy hadn't slowed down so much. So prices were much better than today, I can remember calling Ferrari of Los Gatos and getting used Modena prices in the $250,000 dollar range, and down here in LA the prices were about $25,000 less. All the dealer 1999 F355 spiders with F1 and low miles were about $170K to $190K.
But now let me present you with another situation. But this time it will be a real time situation, the guy I worked with to get my car, Tom, at Ameristar Capital Wholesale just informed me that there is another car coming that I could buy or trade for. Now tell me guys what would you do in this situation, go Euro or go American?
The car arrives in LAX on April 1st (this isn't and April fools day joke I promise):
1999, F355 Spider, F1, 3600 miles, one owner, all original, books-records, no stories, serviced, triple black (a photo is one the companies website), with yellow shields! It is damn beautiful!! The out the door price to me or any one else is $137,500 (that is landed, converted, ready to register, all paper work in order, ready to kiss the roads of America!)
That is one valuable car. Now would you buy this Euro car at the above mentioned price? Or would you buy the, lets say, fictitious American equivalent for $30 or $40 thousand more at your local dealer?
That is the question, what would you do and why? You know what I would do, my answer would be boring and predictable.
What would you do?
Eric |
Eric Ferrari Lover (Ericf355spider)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 6:14 pm: | |
Hey Krist,
Your completely right about the dollar being the motivating factor here, the only reason people are buying Euro cars for the moment is because the Dollar is strong, in the early 90's there was •••• load of Europeans over here buying our exotics cars and sending them to Europe because the dollars was weak, now it is our turn again, that is the simple macro picture. |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 8:30 am: | |
I agree with the dealer support issue, ChristianK. I have been completely disappointed with the service at my dealer as well. BUT, you have to admit that there is a *BIG* difference between PAYING for something and getting it free, especially with one of these cars where the bills can easily run into the thousands (and more)... |
Kristoffer Hansson (Maverick)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 7:24 am: | |
The following is a response to an email I recieved from REV considering why the prices are lower in Europe. REV:
"Maybe you should take the time to explain to the nice people why Ferraris etc are as "cheap" as they are in Sweden, Finland and Denmark ! It's called TAXES ! If the manufacturer did not "Drop the List Price" to a much lower level to compensate for the taxes... They would not sell any ! > REV"
Me:
Thats not entirely true. For cars that are sold in Denmark you have a point. They do have very high taxes for cars. So they have to drop the prices to sell any cars at all! But this is not the case for Ferrari. Remember that the demand is higher on Ferraris than the number of cars Ferrari can produce. This is a contradiction to your statement.
Please look at it from the other angle. European Ferraris are really expensive for europeans and the prices for US cars is so high that we dont have a chance affording ém. The thing is that the dollar is so strong. Highest ever for many european countries. Thats why you believe the cars are so "cheap".
Its like going to a country in the far east where a good meal can be bought at a restaurant for less than a buck.. For them, one dollar is much money. But not for us.. You understand my point?
Do some of you other guys have other opinions about this please feel free to fill in. /Kristoffer |
Christiank (Christiank)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 1:03 am: | |
Ernesto:
I am sorry but warranty and dealer support is much better for my Jeep TJ from the local Chrysler dealer as from those .... at the Ferrari dealership. From what I have heard from the people I talked to I am not the only one with that experience. The same story for my 99 BMW 540. Sad, sad, the more expensive the car, the more arrogant the people.
Christian |
Tenney (Tenney)
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2001 - 12:21 am: | |
Ernesto, is your 360 a U.S. car? If so, did you encounter any difficulty having it delivered with the four point belts? |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 9:47 pm: | |
The bottom line is that for $10 - $20k less on a $160k car, I would go for the local one with the warranty and much better dealer support. |
Christiank (Christiank)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 8:50 pm: | |
Conversion costs are about 15 K for a new car not 25, transport costs are 3 K +/- max (west coast) sealed and crated. Been there, done that. The warranty concern is correct but the max you have to pay is for labor and not for the parts or you buy yourself a third party warranty. |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 5:57 pm: | |
At to that 120K, 25K to convert, 5K to ship and insure in a sealed container, and its only $10K less than the local one.
And the local one still has FNA 3-year warranty, and is worth more on resale..
I paid list for my 360 (about $160K, sport seats, F1, four point belts, shields, CD changer, xenon lights, challenge grill, etc etc), and waited only four months for it. |
Kristoffer Hansson (Maverick)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 3:36 pm: | |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet) - You say that you can get a used 360 for 160G. But I´m sure that you are aware that that is a heck more than 120G which is the price for a NEW 360 in Sweden.... |
Tenney (Tenney)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 3:19 pm: | |
There is a pre-owned 360 with 7k miles at Ferrari of Beverly Hills (Southern California) for sale at an asking price of 170K. A 550 Maranello can be ordered there today (no wait list for build) at MSRP. |
Kenneth Butler (Mondialman)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 2:19 pm: | |
I should export 355's to California! Does a stock US 355 meet CA smog? |
Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 12:52 pm: | |
And I have seen 1999 355 Spiders in the $140-$160, with about 10k miles and in perfect condition.
Ernesto |
Christiank (Christiank)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 12:10 pm: | |
I can get you a 98 355 Spider F1 with 10,000 miles yellow/black, challenge rear grill and red calipers for about USD 130,000. This is a US car, not a Euro car, all records, nothing wrong with the car. Any serious interest please e-mail me at [email protected]. |
Christiank (Christiank)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 12:00 pm: | |
I can get |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 20, 2001 - 1:42 am: | |
Notice I didn't attack anyone in my post. You should come up to NorCal (ya know the Silicon Valley) Eric, where Ferrari of San Francisco has (maybe had by now, it is monday) at least one 360 (sorry I don't recall F1 or not) for $160k out the door. A trip up here could be worth it for ya. BTW, I didn't say I bought a Ferrari at %30 less than MSRP.
-Ben
P.S. thanks BretM |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter)
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 9:41 pm: | |
There isn't really a problem with Euro cars in the US (and up here in Canada too). These Gray Market cars are unique, but they are around. It takes alot from someone to import and federalise, that the majority of people do not want to go through the hassle of doing. I was in this position before I got my GT4. There was this beautiful Lancia Montecarlo for sale in Switzerland that I was interested in. It would've been no problem to import into Canada (more on that later), but I had to all the leg-work to view it, ship it and register it. Whereas a few months later, I see this GT4, which I had known its previous history. I was able to touch it, sit in it, look underneath it and speak frankly to the salesman about it...all of 45 minutes away from home. Done deal. To each his own. I'm not saying that I would never import a car, in fact I'll be going to England this Spring and if something catches my eye... But I wouldn't suggest this to everyone.
I've been made aware by another person here, that we Canadians have a little bit better. Any car 15 years old and older can be imported WITHOUT ANY MODIFICATION. No smog, no bumpers, no daytime running-lights, nothing. All pure. |
BretM (Bretm)
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 9:05 pm: | |
Before we go on an ego trip about SoCal, I live in the 7th wealthiest town in the nation, and next to mine is the 2nd richest. Everything is expensive here which is why there is a Ferrari dealer like ten minutes away, and Ferrari North America is based like twenty minutes away (Mercedes-Benz's and BMW's headquarters are like ten minutes away) and the only authorized Ferrari body shop (Classic Coach) is like thirty minutes away. But where I live doesn't matter, it's who I am that counts. If anything it is a pain living around here because most people from other towns think you're a prick. I would be sweet to live somewhere where Ferraris were cheaper and I had the only one around (the first decent weather day we had this year around here was saturday last week and I saw four Ferraris in a twenty minute ride).
I am still hesitant of buying a Euro car because of the whole anti-Euro thing by Ferrari. I don't understand why they are weird like that, go figure. What I plan on doing as I get older is to always buy used Ferraris. Like getting a '96 355 right now would be a good buy, or a 92 or 93 TR, and early used 456s and even 550s.
Take it easy on Ben, he didn't mean any harm. Sometimes things come out a little wrong when we type them and they intonation can't be heard. He has contributed to this site and I'm sure he didn't mean to get you upset. |
Eric Ferrari Lover (Ericf355spider)
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 8:32 pm: | |
I don't know what planet you live on Ben, but out here in civilization (or the lack there of), where there is lots of money and we don't date our cousins, no body gives a city rat's ASS about MSRP!! Here in Southern California dealers are getting $185K for 1999 F355 spiders with F1 transmissions, in mint condition (like mine) all day long. And according to most people in the know out here, dealers don't have to negotiate squat, cause they won't have any inventory by summer time. MSRP means Zip - Zero - Nada to those of us out here sport.
I know 4 or 5 people that would love to by a 360 or a 550 Ferrari at MSRP, LOL, you have to be joking!!
So if you live in some back water lagoon or some hole in the wall place, where you are the only person with money, for miles around, well I guess you can get your Ferrari car, your magical MSRP, and a wad of toilet paper to plug your "know it all" condescending pie hole all at the nearest Walmart!!
Eric (Oh, and I hope I didn't FLAME anyone?) |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 7:20 pm: | |
I've said this before and I'll say it again. On a local dealers comparable car (and I am in the higher priced area) a 1999 F355 F1 Spyder with about 5k miles the ASKING price is $170k. I did a quick look around and found many online for sale at $160-200k. When I bought my car I got it for ~%20 less than asking OUT THE DOOR (not to mention the last NEW car I bought I paid %30 off the MSRP). If I could negotiate about %15 off the $170k asking price that'd be about $145k. I would glady fork over the extra $5k or more (you claim to have paid about $140k) to buy a local car which I would have already inspected (including service documentation), driven, and conversed with it's only other owner.
And that is just me. Your Mileage May Vary.
-Ben (not trying to flame anyone) |
Eric Ferrari Lover (Ericf355spider)
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 5:44 pm: | |
Hey Rob,
Well that is what I don't get, the dealers here in So. Cal. don't have a problem working on the car, I have taken the car to two Authorized dealers and they both said they would be happy to work on the car, the cars are virtually identical to the US spec car, and the warranty on my car is expired anyway, so why not seriously consider saving $30 to $50 thousand on a car while the strong dollar allows you to do it?
What I am finally coming around to realizing is that perhaps the Ferrari N.A. doesn't like to extra cars over here? But I don't understand why not, I mean all the new cars over here are back ordered for 4 years!! And at my local dealer they had a BB Euro version on the show room floor? So I still don't really make any sense of all this, but it is helpful to hear what you all have to say on the subject.
Eric |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 4:16 pm: | |
Only bad thing I've heard about Euro models are that autorized Ferrari dealers aren't supposed to work on them and the waranty goes bad. Although I doubt this is enforced that much. |
Eric Ferrari Lover (Ericf355spider)
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2001 - 9:43 am: | |
Hey guys,
Well I honestly felt like I was rolling the dice until I saw that red Beauty, It was like seeing your baby for the first time!! But really the cards we stacked in my favor. I am posting my first message to all of you, but it was a first response to a posting on "Prices for new Ferraris around the world". I hope this modest contribution from a non Ferrari expert is helpful.
I will do some of my American Ferrari loving friends one better, I just bought and registered, and now legally drive a Euro version Ferrari, and damn I saved ***BIG MONEY***!!!!!!!! I feel so guilty! Well sort of.
I had a very experienced buddy of mine buy me a 1999 F355 Spider, red/black, F1, Big Sound System, red brakes and drilled rotors, 5100 miles one it, one owner, and the Damn car is perfect!!
I had a pre-purchase inspection done in Europe at a Ferrari dealer, then I had a pre-purchase inspection done at a Ferrari dealer here in California, and the car is virtually identical to the American version (they said Ferrari now days makes a world car basically) and the service department said they won't have any problem servicing the car in the future, that was a relief!
My buddy charged me $5000 for managing it all and I am out just under $140,000 for the whole "out the door" process. That is about $40 to $45 thousand dollars less than the same car would be out here on the west coast. Is an American version Ferrari really worth that much more? Where is the difference, I just don't understand.
Well I feel bad for the guys in Brunie at half a million per car, although the only guy that can probably afford such a car is the Sultan over there, and I did envy the prices in Europe too, but I am happy that my mighty Dollar let me taste, drive, an own what the Euros have enjoyed at such good prices!!
But what I don't get, and maybe you guys can help me understand this is, what is all the paranoia about owning a Euro version of a Ferrari that was built in the same factory as the America version, and is dealer serviceable, and for all practical purposes is a world car? Why wouldn't more people be comfortable owning such a car, and enjoy the savings? I mean this isn't the 1980's gray market crap anymore, what gives?
Damn this is fun talking to you guys!!
(Then Peter responded to my and I wrote back to him, what is below)
Hey Peter,
No My guy is a local guy, right imagine the French helping us? LOL! I have a good St. Topez story about the French helping me and a friend one summer, LOL, now that was funny!
Anyway my guy is at www.ameristarcapitalwholesale.com , you can even see my car there, he has it listed "for sale", just as an example but I know he will do the same for other people for about the same price, most of the pricing just depends on the exchange rate, and he loves getting back to Europe as much as possible. That is part of the reason the service is so cheap.
But Peter tell me this, why do you think American Ferrari folks now days are so stand offish when it comes to Euro versions? Or is that just my impression?
What about all the Euro BB models over here? We never got any US delivery on them did we? They are quite popular, no?
Eric |
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