| Author | Message | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 464 Registered: 4-2001 |
Arnaldo is correct -- patience is something you must have with the TR. I have experienced everything he said. Yup, I have gotten the lambo question - never porsche though. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1659 Registered: 2-2001 |
I had a guy ask me if the 308 was a lambo at the gas station, he was nice though so I told him it was a ferrari and talked/taught a bit about Italian cars. | ||
| Lung (Lung7707)
New member Username: Lung7707 Post Number: 29 Registered: 1-2002 |
Arnoldo, at least people call your car a Lambo...I've had people comment about my TR, "thats a nice Porsche" | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 505 Registered: 8-2001 |
It's not just TR owners. All Ferrari owners should be patient with other drivers. I've had cars ahead of me deliberately slow down a lot and try to goad me to pass them in dangerous no-passing sections of rural highways. There are many people out there who'll try to mess with you. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Junior Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 240 Registered: 2-2001 |
I am not particularly up to date with the latest car values, but with regards to Michaels comments I have to add that sometimes TR owners also need to have a lot of patience with people. It attracts a lot of attention and not always positive. People constantly trying to race you, changing lanes inches from your bumpers, etc. just trying to get you going. One that is not so bad but it is definitely annoying is the question or phrase referring to the car as a Lamborghini. I am almost sure it is a common question for TR owners, and less common for the other Ferraris due to its outrageous design. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2001 |
The advatage of a V10 over a V12 is weight. You get, for the most part, about the same power output, with less weight to lug around the track. A V10 over a V8 the weight is a little bit more but not much, but the power output you get more than compesates for the little bit of extra weight. That is why for the last decade almost every F1 enigine is a V10. Another thing is with the V10 being a shorter block than the V12 you can get weight closer to the center of the car to get an almost 50/50 weight split. This is better for handling. There are lots of reasons for the V10 over the V12 and V8 setups. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1656 Registered: 2-2001 |
I alluded to this before in a post about this. I'm not sure that the V10 is the best set up for a larger engine. Example being the 4.7L F50. The even larger F60 would be another example. I really don't know anything about it (I don't have countless V12s and 10s laying around and a dyno to test them, etc), but it would be interesting to find some info on it. Plus, Ferrari became famous for the V12, I assume they like using it. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2001 |
I can't say this enough when are we gonna get to debate on a V10???????????? Ferrari is lagging they so badly need a F1 inspired power plant in a door slammer. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 572 Registered: 9-2001 |
On second thought, some of the 2+2s have fared well too. Take the 365GTC4. It sold new for around $20k and now sells from $45k to $65k depending on condition. Thanks not bad for an old 2+2. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 462 Registered: 4-2001 |
Peter, we are on the same page about the comments. Cool. I do agree about ther 512 BB. I would have bought one if not for the fact it is not really as good a daily driver as much as a TR. the 512 BB is always racing even at 40 mph. My favorite however is the 288GTO (maybe I should have saved my balls comment to describe that car -- a monster to say the least. Michael  | ||
| Peter B. (Gts308qv)
Junior Member Username: Gts308qv Post Number: 171 Registered: 5-2001 |
Michael! Never took your comments as a personal slight, but I still have a good laugh at your "balls" comment. All it takes to drive one is the love of a 'stand out' Ferrari and the money to buy one. My last comment on this post, all in good humour with no malice intended! | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 461 Registered: 4-2001 |
Peter, I did not take your comments personally at all. It is a truism that beauty is in the eye of the beholder -- it was not meant to be a personal attack. Plus you did say the car look dated -- which again is a truism in that it bold looks and wide stance tells of a different styling era. But I think that it has aged very well. I will let your •••• comment slide as I never meant anything personal so I feel no need to go there. I do stand behind my comment that it takes balls to be seen in and drive a TR simply because it draws so much attention and it does speak loudly as a design -- that was the intent and purpose and it succeeded well plus it has some pretty good performance to match. The 512TR is even more powerful and the 512M is just crazy. The TR is not a car for everyone, even among F-car lovers, as it is one of the boldest statements Ferrari has made. Like it or hate it, the TR has no equal in that invokes intense emotion. I hope you understand my comments now and realize that they were not meant as a personal slight in any way. Michael N. | ||
| Peter B. (Gts308qv)
Junior Member Username: Gts308qv Post Number: 170 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ferrari will always be sought after, because they cover a very wide spectrum. A one off special from the fifties or a 250GTO may be in the hundreds of thousands even tip the million mark in value. On the other hand a nice GT4 or 400 2+2 will be about 20-30K. They are all Ferrari and the owner is a member of this exclusive fraternity of car owners regardless of the entry price. This is part of the Ferrari exclusivity. So basically who gives a fukc which Ferrari holds its value better. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1941 Registered: 2-2001 |
God Forbid, that prices get too ridiculous then the car becomes something less of a sought after automobile. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Intermediate Member Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 1105 Registered: 12-2000 |
I think an important point and angle that James Gardner at Norwoods discussed with me is how Ferrari prices are relative to each other. The overall market reacts mainly to the American economy, but most models hold a relative position to the perceived "one step down" or "one step up" within it's cylinder class. For example, 308/308i to 308qv to 328 to 328 ABS to 348 to 355 to 360. Then the 12's are definitely not on a consistent curve, but still very relative. A TR is a step down now from a BB, but a 512 is probably 2 steps up from TR, and then the M is another step and then the 550 is another step. I think the only model that seems to be trying to find it's relative position is the TR. It wasn't long ago that it was a step up from a BB. Although the 12's are more complex and volatile, the 8's will probably always hold this relative position. If in 3 years you can get a nice QV for $20k, then the others will probably follow... $30k 328, $40k 328 ABS, $45k 348, $60-75k 355, and $100k for 360. I think maybe the 348 prices already show a tie with the 328 ABS or even a half step down. | ||
| Peter B. (Gts308qv)
Junior Member Username: Gts308qv Post Number: 169 Registered: 5-2001 |
Michael N. I think you missread my comment with this thread and took things far too personally. The TR's are an awesome super car and I think it is a shame they don't hold their own in the market. This does not diminish their beauty or standing. The comment "it takes balls to be seen in and drive a TR" smacks of smalldick/bigcar syndrome and not worthy of a TR owner. If I could afford one, I would also consider a TR, especially as they are such good value at the moment. Although as a driver's supercar, I do prefer the 512BB. As I commented in my previous post, the Ferrari market is very fickle but for true Ferrari enthusiasts like "US", it really shouldn't matter. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 564 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think the V12s have fared better than the V8s. Two seaters have always done better than 2+2s whether they were V12s or V8s. Look at the 250 2+2s,330 2+2s, 365 2+2s, 400 2+2s, 456 2+2s, 308GT4 2=2s and Mondial 2+2s. None of them have done very well, although the V12s have still held their value better than the V8s. | ||
| Lung (Lung7707)
New member Username: Lung7707 Post Number: 20 Registered: 1-2002 |
U are rite Michael about people flocking to the TR. Everytime we have a club outing (Singapore), all the passerbys wanna take a photo with the TR. They will bypass the 355s and even the 360s. However, having said that, no one wants to buy the TR because of the high road tax (US$600/month). Well, I guess you can't have the cake and eat it. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 52 Registered: 12-2001 |
To Tino, re the boxer: i had a later injected one that was, in many respects, the best of the six ferraris i have owned so far. i bought mine as a garage queen and had to sink some money into to it so i could drive it. i probably put 10k miles on it in the first year, soley in pleasure driving. Since it is not easy to find a good one, since the carb cars are scarce, and since you have owned it since new, i would encourage you to keep it. The market is not great for selling boxers and has not been for a long time. you will not find something else, so easily, that is as cool to look at, and as much fun to drive. (And mine was quick! Sorry i sold it. Got a 550, which while way more civilized, is less involving: power steering, electronic suspension, production quality build, compared to the boxer with its quasi-handbuilt quality-and original factory glue drips on the leather). | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 460 Registered: 4-2001 |
Beauty is definitely in the eye of the beholder. I think the TR has aged very well for what it was suppose to be -- a super car. The 8's are nice but they are no supercars and that's the big difference. Anyone can easily drive an 8 -- it takes balls to be seen in and drive a TR. Just go any parking lot where all the 8's and a TR are parked and look to where the people go first. The TR was meant to be big, bold etc, Not a 90's Clinton wimpy car. No Peter, I am not calling you a wimp, I am just saying the culture fell behind the car. Being PC and whiney to me are not improvements to our well being. I think the TR is bolder and better than the rounded, wind tunnel look-a-likes of 80's. Then again Reagan was an 80's President -- worthy of a TR. How's that for mixing F-cars and politics... | ||
| Peter B. (Gts308qv)
Junior Member Username: Gts308qv Post Number: 168 Registered: 5-2001 |
No real difference whether it's 8 or 12. Depends how the shape and look of the car has aged. TR's are sinking fast as their looks have aged badly plus high maintenance costs. GTB/S are all over the place. Although they are one of the most beautiful Ferrari, they are not a collectible and price depends on condition and originality. It's an unpredictable market out there for the relatively mass produced Ferrari's of the '70's and '80's . | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1933 Registered: 2-2001 |
This may be a unfair comparison but if you are looking at value and how it holds, look at the 400 series Ferraris. A great car but went no place. Then again I guess the styling has to be taken into consideration here. It really is a tough call just shooting from the hip. But I would say the 8 cyls have the edge. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1631 Registered: 2-2001 |
If you don't have to I would say keep the Boxer. Then you have a nice 12 and 8, what more could you ask for. It's especially cool that it's a one owner car after 20 years. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
New member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2001 |
No I've never posted much about it. I bought it in May 81 and shipped it to CA where I registered August 81. Since I got my 360F1, it's been sitting at FoOC while I ponder if I should sell it. I can't get myself to do it at a give-away price since it is one of the best ones I've owned. | ||
| C. Smith (Italianauto)
Junior Member Username: Italianauto Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2001 |
Tino.....you have had your boxer since NEW?????!!!!!!.....There has got to be a story to tell here...(or maybe I missed it since I am kind of new here)..... | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1629 Registered: 2-2001 |
What I have gathered is that (excluding all inflationary figures, so we'll figure a few years after a new model comes out) 8s tend to depreciate steadily, whereas 12s seem to get kicked in the balls in the first couple of years and then don't depreciate at all (relatively). At least this is what I have noticed. A 550 depreciates like $75K in the first two or so years but then levels off. A 355 depreciates lets say $7K a year steadily. The other part though is what has been said, the market is a buyers market and can vary greatly. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
New member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2001 |
Dave, ...except for the poor BB. One of the best. I've had mine since new (1981)and it can barely fetch a third of what a Chevy Chevelle has fetched at a recent auction ! Think about that ! (the gurus of the Ferrarilist seem to think the Chevelle is a true classic while the BB is a grey market don't-touch-it item) | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 51 Registered: 12-2001 |
For regular production models, they depreciate the moment you take them out of the dealership. I don't know that you can compare depreciation of 8 v. 12, since some regular production 8's are holding up quite well:look at the price of late, low mileage 328's, when the testarossa from the 80's is pretty darn cheap. Why the question? From an investment standpoint, you will not find too many bargains. Over the long haul, its probably more about enjoyment than anything else: having gotten a great deal on a 456 is not a great deal if you don't want a big, 2+2; on the other hand, there are plenty of people i have met who have held and driven the same F car for a decade or more; those people get their money's worth. So, asking a question like: is it a better investment to buy a 330 gtc or a 355 berlinetta for the same money is more a question of personal taste, and what you are looking for in the car than a question of depreciation, per se. (although i would think the 330 would probably not nosedive, whereas the 355 might in the next few years). The other question i would ask is parts and service availability and cost; i don't know that i would like to go hunting for 330 gtc parts. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
New member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2002 |
It seems to me that you can only compare 12 cylinders made from 1975 on. Except for the limited production 288, F40 & F50, all these cars have depreciated somewhat. Early 308's have held up the best compared to MSRP. If I had to guess, I would say the 8's have held up better, particularly in the 90's. Early 456's can be bought for about 100K and I have seen even 550's offered in the 140K range lately. One thing is for sure, whether it has 8 or 12 cylinders, 2 seaters have held up way better tha 4 seaters. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Junior Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 188 Registered: 10-2001 |
Some 12's like the 400i haven't fared well at all although the old 12's from the 50's can sell for millions. The 246 Dino is a 6 and it's done really well. I can't think of any 'older' 8's that are worth a bundle though except the F40 and as stated below, it used to be a lot higher. 8's are relativly recent; the first production was the 308 GT4 I think, which may be the best 8 investment of all right now. It seems Mondial 8's are quickly becoming low man on the Ferrari totem pole. Bottom line: buy the Ferrari (or any car) you love, don't think about investment value except as a function of your buy price. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 494 Registered: 8-2001 |
It's more like "flavor of the month" kind of deal. Prices take off on feeding frenzies. Remember that some F40s sold for over $1 Mil during the craze and are now offered at A more reasonable $300K-ish (near MSRP). | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 304 Registered: 9-2001 |
Not sure how you can calculate since orginal price is such a variable. I guess you could use MSRP but not many get that. Just look at a 360. if you bought at MSRP and sold a few months later you probably made out. If you bought used at inflated prices and held for 5 years you might be in bad shape | ||
| Harlan Mott (Hmott3)
New member Username: Hmott3 Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2001 |
How is this even calculated? I know we can take guesses, but does anyone have any solid data on this? How do you even do something like this? Take the original value - current value including inflation, but what about the fact that the 8's haven't been made as long as 12's? Do you have to compair like year cars to get real useful data? But if you use like year cars you don't have a lot to go on, and production numbers are different on the two. Do you also have to factor in the number of auto's producted? Anyway anyone have any answers, or better yet numbers? |