| Author | Message | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 208 Registered: 11-2001 |
Thanks Art I think that kinda work on my car is gonna be last on the list. I got such a lemon, and I'm currently in the process of make lemonade out of it. It's gonna need alot of sugar, cause at this point it sure is sour, hahahaa. When I do get to the point I'll get the info from you of who to talk to. But that is a long way off, as in years. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 295 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernie: I just noticed you note about porting your 348. The guy quoting you 2k for the job will probably hurt your performance. My guy, who flows the heads, thinks that the bottom of the ports are too low, welds up the ports to raise them relative to the valve seat, making the curve from the port to the valve more gradual, thus increasing the flow in and out. The ports are more than large enough for the displacement and rev limiter, so the velocity needs to be increased to help the performance. That type of work is very, very expensive, however if done right, could bring the performance of your 348 up to that of a 355. Art | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 199 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well at least the head work was pretty much on par. But they sure didn't think of ease when it comes to other things on the car. If only I had a car lift in my garage, I would do the work my self. I am tepmted to try it with out the lift but that will take too long, unless any of you know how to take the engine out that way with no engine stand. You can't even get to the alternator with out a lift. So for now I have to take it to the mechanic, or until I get irritated enough to do it my self. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Junior Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 61 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ernie, the biggest hit was the valves and related hardware, nearly $7,000.00. The porting and machine work was only about a $1,000.00. The other $4,000.00 was labor to remove the engine, remove the heads, build the heads, assemble the engine, put the engine back in. It adds up fast! As I said earlier I probably did not need to replace the valves, it was a judgement call. I would not do it that way again, I wasn't ripped off, it was my decision, I just did not want to take this motor apart again any time soon. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 197 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hey Art thanks for the info. But geese Cmparrf $12K for a head rebuild, that's is such a burn. I talked to a guy that does porting for race cars, and dragsters and his highest price for a port job, you bringing the head already off, was $2k and that included the pollish. I guess I can't say it enough, when you have a Ferrari people will try to rip you off every chance they get. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Junior Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2002 |
Art, thanks that explains the difference. We were not as aggressive on the porting job as you. If I am ever in this situation again I may ask for your advice, Thanks Chris | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 281 Registered: 6-2001 |
Chris: My mechanic who did my motorcyles, is known for increasing HP with port work. He just finished with a Yamaha dirt bike, a 428cc single. It has a 5 valve head, sound familiar? He got an extra 10% more power from it. We used his valve seats, and the slight porting work on the car, and I seem to have no problem driving around 360s on acceleration. Essentially, he uses what is called a venturi port, and because the port is low on the exhaust, uses his skill to raise the exhaust port slightly, and that seems to make more power. Using the Yamaha engine makes this an easy way to see if the porting works. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
New member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2002 |
Art, I have made the exact changes to my F355, what prompted the valve work on your car? I have a 95 F355 and was concerned about rumors of valve guide wear on early F355's. At the time of a major service at 12000 miles I had Chris Hill at Autosport remove the heads and send them to Ferrari of Houston / Risi Racing. I put all new valves in and brought the heads up to '99 specs, including new steel valve guides and new retainers. This turned out to be a very expensive fix to an issue the car had yet to develop (about $12,000 parts, machining, labor), The biggest cost being new valves that probably didn't need to be replaced, but as long as we were there.... I have not noticed any change in performance as new ecu's and Tubi were already in place. Your thoughts? Chris | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 280 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernie: Sorry to get back to you so late, but the changes are: 1. ECUs have been changed, a tubi exhaust, and a very careful valve job, with minor porting. 2. handling: careful settings to ensure that it is exactly what was designed, checking all the measurements, etc., and it made a big difference in the handling, car is no longer twitchs when driven hard and is sliding. Art | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 167 Registered: 11-2001 |
Art, What changes did you make and what kinda power gains did you get? Did you do any handling modification? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 239 Registered: 6-2001 |
There is nothing wrong with pushing a Porsche off a cliff. My neighbor with a 2001 911, has been buying part after part to make it as fast as my 355. Still hasn't gotten there yet (I've made a few changes to the engine on mine). | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1795 Registered: 2-2001 |
There's a commercial for some candy bar thing in Europe, they had it on Fox's funniest commercials (yes, I subjected myself to this brainless entertainment for almost an hour while waiting to go out on Friday night) where they push a Porsche off a cliff. Apparently others agree with you Manu. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2002 |
I'd rather push my Porsche......of a cliff, than drive it. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 258 Registered: 3-2001 |
This thread is like Porsche's design... it's endless.... (or is that timeless???). | ||
| Robert Davis (H2oquick)
Junior Member Username: H2oquick Post Number: 95 Registered: 8-2001 |
I would rather push my Ferrari than watch this thread go any further................. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 342 Registered: 2-2001 |
I can live with that. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2002 |
Guys - I think this is getting a little silly now. Lets accept that Ferrari is the ultimate road car manufacturer/race team and that Porsche is NOT. MOVE ON. If you disagree then go to Porschechat or something..... END OF STORY. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 231 Registered: 6-2001 |
Nick: I'd ride push my Ferrari than drive an NSX. | ||
| nick l (Nsxnick)
New member Username: Nsxnick Post Number: 25 Registered: 7-2001 |
this thread is beginning to sound like one of those "my supra is faster than your rx7" threads common on the import sites. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member Username: Boozy Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2001 |
To me there is only one Porsche. They all look alike. You have to read the bumper to tell them apart unless you really know Porsches. YAWN!! | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2001 |
I talked to ART at Cavalinno this year after the racing was done (Friday evening). Was having some pictures taken and talking to a few of US. He is a nice, down to earth guy. Very knowledgeable and good to talk to. He is in the electronics business and lives in San Francisoco. He says the car sits in a garage/warehouse somewhere all year and only gets taken out 1-3 times a year. He says he rarely ever sees the car although he owns it. Parts are very difficult to get. He also owns other exotics. Seeminly good friendly guy who knows his sh*t and enjoys his life. The car looked like a F50 coupe(not spyder) w/ the ram air on top as Gt1 car. Other than that, looked like stock F50. rims were black , but I am still wondering ig that was brake residue. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 224 Registered: 6-2001 |
Nobody is talking about thde 333sp? I am wrong, but isn't that one of the fastest sports cars around. Sure looks like it in the American Le Mans series. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 471 Registered: 4-2001 |
Bret, F50GT serial #1 was at Cavallino this year. Talked to the mechanics for a awhile and they were very friendly and showed me a lot about the car. One hell of a machine. You are correct in that the mechanic said serials 2 and 3 were actually made from spare parts and only #1 is at full race specs. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 161 Registered: 11-2001 |
Andrew there were only three F50 GT1's ever produced. They where built to race and win in the World Sports Car Championship and Le Mans 24hr, agaist the likes of the McLaren F1 and the Porsche 911GT1. That is why the street version of the F50 was produced to accomodate the FIA rules for sports car competion. If I am correct the reason that Ferrari never raced them, was because they got the contract to get Schumacher in 1996, and they dropped everything else to focussed on the F1 title. Three Manufacture and Two Driver World titles later, I think that they made the right choice. | ||
| Erich Walz (Deleteall)
New member Username: Deleteall Post Number: 45 Registered: 12-2001 |
I've always preferred the phrases "Ferrari: The finest Fiat money can buy" and "Porsche: The finest VW money can buy." Todd: If by "dote" you were referring to Homer Simpson's exclamation whenever he does something stupid, it's actually D'oh. Believe it or not its in the Oxford English Dictionary(latest edition). | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1777 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferrari made 3 F50GT1s to possibly reenter sports car racing, in particular LeMans if I remember correctly. Only serial #1 is set up for full race specs though. It is currently owned by Art Zarofoulo in the United States. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1776 Registered: 2-2001 |
If we're gonna arbitrarily pick cars to compare. The 2001 Ferrari F1 car will sodomize any Porsche. Please tell me of a Pcar that will beat it. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 533 Registered: 8-2001 |
Let's see, a Porsche GT1 and GT2 LM will "smoke" a F40. Hmmm...the Porsche is a fully developed race car against a street-legal F40. Like that's even a fair comparison. A streetable Porsche GT1 cost about $1 Mil. So against a $300K F40, it better be quicker and faster. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 445 Registered: 6-2001 |
I think 3 F50 GT1's were ever made. Ferrari made the buyers sign a contract saying they wouldnt race it. | ||
| Andrew (Enzo250gto)
New member Username: Enzo250gto Post Number: 5 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ernie, What is this F50 GT1 you speak of? Is this something a raceteam did to a F50, I never heard of Ferrari producing this. Also the 959 is not the fastest Porsche. Both the 911 GT1 & GT2 LM editions would smoke your F40 and keep up with the F50 GT1 you described(which I'm skeptic of its A.existance B.the numbers you posted). Please provide me a link so I can learn more on this F50 I'm interested in learning more about it. Thanks | ||
| Andrew (Enzo250gto)
New member Username: Enzo250gto Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2002 |
"I rather push my Ferrari than drive a Porsche" I don't understand this mentality at all. Why limit yourself to just one aspect of life or one thing? You should own both and a NSX to have a Japanese car a Viper to have an American car and a Lotus or Austin Martin to have a British car. But I will admit the joke was funny and made me laugh but German engineers are some of the best in the world. ------------------------ Another great Ferrari forum www.ferrariforum.net | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 209 Registered: 6-2001 |
Todd: You can't win with a Porsche on a FerrariChat thread. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1772 Registered: 2-2001 |
So that's what the back of a Pcar looks like. Godo to know, I'll try and remember the next time I'm passing one, they go by so quick though it's hard to tell. I will admit that this is the best Pcar vs Fcar debate, usually they get all serious while this one has remained quite amusing. | ||
| DHutchison (Hutch308)
New member Username: Hutch308 Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2002 |
Thanks for posting that picture of a Porscha's rear end. I am quite certain that most of us have never seen one through the windshield of our Ferraris (and never will!!). I usually see those bug-eye headlight front ends disappear in my rear view mirror. By the way - Magnum P.I. was offered several 928 Porshas, and A BLANK CHECK from Porsche. Their offer was declined and the Ferrari stayed on the show. Several free Porshas, and lots of $$$$$. Nahhh, I'd keep my Ferrari too!!! Ha Ha!! | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Junior Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 204 Registered: 10-2001 |
As the Lotus Lurker here, the F vs. P car cracks me up. All those statistics are rediculous to me as they're so close and at levels most of us never drive at, they might as well be the same. Most drivers should spend a few bucks and time on race driving lessons instead of big bucks for an extra 200-300 hp a supercar will deliver over an 'average' street F or P car. I bet a pro driver in my 117 hp Europa would kick most weekend warriors butts in an average parking lot auto cross in almost any street Ferrari or Porsche. So, you're left with style and mystique, which Ferrari is SO far ahead of Porsche it's not worth talking about. Ferraris are magic and that's all there is to it, P cars are boring. My Europa is magic too although it seems to be the best kept secret in the exotic world. As far as reputation for breaking/absurd maintainence and the evil midget syndrome in home repairs, my L car stands proudly with Ferrari at the head of the line. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 49 Registered: 11-2001 |
Too bad we didn't take this to the "where did you come from" post. Could have broke 400 by now.. Anyhow, I'm outta here.. Happy driving, and DON'T forget your AAA card and toolkit! ;) | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2001 |
Art..That "no hard feelings" was meant to go out to you too... "Just admit it: the Porsche is inferior" Art, You spelled ^errari wrong.. Dote!! My F key on the keyboard broke. Figures.. After taking such a good beat'n I have persevered, but am tired. I'm heading to other posts. See you in another room. Todd...signing off this post till next P-Car argument... It's been entertaining LOL | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 191 Registered: 6-2001 |
Todd: Just admit it: the Porsche is inferior. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2001 |
LOL oh that was funny Todd. It does have that feminine shape to it I must say, Hehehe. Todd your a good sport, and it was fun. Porsche is a well made car. But this is the Ferrarichat site. You have to admit that if a Ferrari owner went to a Porsche chat site, that he would get poked fun at too. With my saying "I rather push my Ferrari than drive a Porsche", I got the idea from the Ol', "Chevy vs Ford" thing. It is funny how that arguement is still going on, just the same way the "Ferrari vs Porsche" is still going on. So for kicks I changed a few words and presto a new twist on an old saying. It is only to antagonise, the stuck up Porsche drivers that get on alot of peoples nevers. I'm no better that you just because I drive a certain kinda car, and vice versa. I said it just to ruffles some feathers. Some like their coffee with cream, and others like cream with their tea. I happen to like Ferrari better than Porsche thats all. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 530 Registered: 8-2001 |
Steve McQueen also owned a few Ferraris. I bet James Dean would be a Ferrari owner too if he had survived that Porsche accident. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2001 |
"Porsches are fast, soft, transportmachines made in enormous numbers with a total lack of charisma compared with Italian cars, especially Ferrari. Just so boring." James Dean, Steve Mcqween...thats charisma OH YES! I will say it again, "I would rather push my Ferrari then drive a Porsche". And I will say it again . You won't have to push a Porsche, it will still be running I do hand it to Ferrari and their marketing. Stratigically placed cars on the side of the road w/ Engine bonnetts up showing that indy car look 8/12 cyl engine. Like a moving showroom LOL Some say the only real Ferrari is a 12cyl. and that's a whole 'nuther discussion. "Todd no hard feelings, I'm just a Ferrari kinda guy." Same to you and Bret. All in good taste. Getting tired of this discussion, moving on to other posts. But , how can you not like this ASS??  | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2001 |
Ernie, you have my vote and you have also killed the P vs F-subject. From my point of view Porsches are not better cars than Ferraris, otherwise I would have bought one, right? Porsches are fast, soft, transportmachines made in enormous numbers with a total lack of charisma compared with Italian cars, especially Ferrari. Just so boring. Ciao Peter | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well, I did read that report about a year ago. all true what you say. BUT, then the 959 went OFF_ROAD and cleaned up there winning the rallys!!!!! OFF ROAD TOO!! And, if you want to get into GT1 cars fine. I'll break out the Gt1 specs. Ferrari charges 140-200K for a car and STILL can't keep afloat. Needs Fiat to bail them out. Funny thing though, I actaully like Ferrari better...just Porsche is the better car. So, my foot stays where it is...on the gas | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 157 Registered: 11-2001 |
Ooooops hit enter twice. But hey that makes it twice as nice, LOL. Todd no hard feelings, I'm just a Ferrari kinda guy. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 156 Registered: 11-2001 |
Todd, Be ready to eat your foot. First I will disquallify my favorite Ferrari to be fair to you. I don't wanna embarase you that much. The F50 GT1 puts out 750 BPH @ 10,500 RPM, its 0-60 time is 2.9, oh and the top speed 236 mph. That is just way too much for the poor 959, so we will use the F40. Now with compairing apples to apples. You have the Porsche twin turbo 959 vs the Ferrari twin turbo F40. Well boys back in 1988, Autocar did this very test. They performed it right in Enzo's own back yard, the Fiorano track. For starters lets do the good old 0-60 times. The 0-60 time for the 959 was 3.6 seconds, and for the F40 3.9. I will give you the joy of having 0-60 best time. Ok now.... 0-100 times. For the 595, 8.3 seconds, and for the F40 7.8. Oh this just isn't right of me but hey Todd you asked for it. Now on the track down the short straight the F40 was cracking off 160 mph, the 595 at the same marking point only managed 138 mph. All the way around the track the 959 was at least 10 seconds behind the F40, but the 595 owner would only admit to six seconds. They did trade cars and the 959 owner was clicking off relatively the same times in the F40. Ok I can't take it any more I'll stop there. Sorry Todd ol boy but, looks like your turbo bettle still couldn't keep up. OH YES! I will say it again, "I would rather push my Ferrari then drive a Porsche". | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 155 Registered: 11-2001 |
Todd, Be ready to eat your foot. First I will disquallify my favorite Ferrari to be fair to you. I don't wanna embarase you that much. The F50 GT1 puts out 750 BPH @ 10,500 RPM, its 0-60 time is 2.9, oh and the top speed 236 mph. That is just way too much for the poor 959, so we will use the F40. Now with compairing apples to apples. You have the Porsche twin turbo 959 vs the Ferrari twin turbo F40. Well boys back in 1988, Autocar did this very test. They performed it right in Enzo's own back yard, the Fiorano track. For starters lets do the good old 0-60 times. The 0-60 time for the 959 was 3.6 seconds, and for the F40 3.9. I will give you the joy of having 0-60 best time. Ok now.... 0-100 times. For the 595, 8.3 seconds, and for the F40 7.8. Oh this just isn't right of me but hey Todd you asked for it. Now on the track down the short straight the F40 was cracking off 160 mph, the 595 at the same marking point only managed 138 mph. All the way around the track the 959 was at least 10 seconds behind the F40, but the 595 owner would only admit to six seconds. They did trade cars and the 959 owner was clicking off relatively the same times in the F40. Ok I can't take it any more I'll stop there. Sorry Todd ol boy but, looks like your turbo bettle still couldn't keep up. OH YES! I will say it agian, "I would rather push my Ferrari then drive a Porsche". | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 154 Registered: 11-2001 |
OK your on. But lets use the correct F50. That would be my favorite, the F50 GT1. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2001 |
"One other thing why is it that the best Porsche is compaired to the above average Ferrari. If you are gonna compair "best" then put the GT2 up agianst the F50." Na, that wouldn't be fair. I mean the Gt2 is brand new and F50 is 5 years old.... So let's even the bases. How about taking the 15yr old 959 and putting it against the F50/F40.. ;) | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 185 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernie: YOu're right. I'd love to meet up with a non-turbo porsche on my favorite road. Art | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2001 |
One other thing why is it that the best Porsche is compaired to the above average Ferrari. If you are gonna compair "best" then put the GT2 up agianst the F50. Yeah the Ferrari is "very expensive" to keep up. But the way I look at it, is it keeps the "less dedicated" away. Only the Hard Core stick with Ferrari, no wussies. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2002 |
I remember when I borrowed a 355GTS for my cousins wedding...... I was driving down the A40 in London and became aware the clutch wasn't engaging properly, and was slipping quite badly. I foolishly ignored this hoping the car would make it until I gave it back to the owner (who had warned and reassured me about this worn clutch). On the return journey the clutch pedal went to the floor and left me stranded on a v.busy set of lights. I felt very, very embarrased. My passenger and I pushed it to the side of the road and called a breakdown service. Many passer-bys were grinning. SCHADENFREUDE all over their faces. I was furious. Small price to pay when its howling away down your favourite road on a sunny day...... | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 497 Registered: 1-2001 |
Joren, A correction to your correction if I may. There are 2 Fiats, one should not get them confused. Fiat network/group/auto is Fiat, Alfa and Lancia, of which GM owns 20 percent or so. Fiat Spa. is Ferrari and Maserati (and I believe formula one/racing as well). It's my understanding that this spinoff happened a few years back. Correct me if I am wrong. -Ben | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2001 |
But, yea the argument gets old.. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hey wasn't it back in 1987 when they held a top speed test? It was the Porsche 963 (dunno if the number is right) the one the was "dominating" Le Mans, against a Chevy Monet Carlo NASCAR. The price at that time for the Porsche was around $250,000, and for the Chevy $75,000. The highest speed the Porsche cranked out was 227 mph, guess what the "Good Ol Boys" ran??? 240 mph!!! that poor lil beetle couldn't even keep up. BUT, The nascar now needs a rework, and the POrsche can keep doing the 200+ test over and over again day after day..... I hear what you are saying. The only point I have trying to make through all of this( and we all get off on tangents)is that the appealing thing about Porsche is that is can be pushed and pushed and pushed and still want more. Sure there are cars which can beat it at top speed. But, how many times in a row? Sure there a Vettes that can run with it at the track, but how many track days before a rework. Porsche makes car which perform incredibly, AND are still reliable enough to use everyday as a primary vehicle. If they only wanted the car to run top speed I'm sure Porsche would have wasted the Nascar, but they are also interested in longevity. I think the 993 ans 996 4S and carbriolet are beautiful cars. But, overal I agree they don't compete very well w/ Ferrari in looks area. as far as the food chain coment it depends on what your after. Striclty looks, Yes Ferrari, Performance and realiablility Porsche, ultra exotic, Lamborghini. "Porsche is at the bottom of the top" Maybe in looks area in your opinion. Definately not in reliablility, performance, or price. not in part availability. it's all relative. The thing which pissses us off(POrsche owners) are that because people don't like the car they think it is "bottom of the top" or "sucks" or a "beetle". Just because you are not into the car does not mean it is any of those. facts are simply facts. I mean, if you talk about food chain Ferrari is at the bottom of the WHOLE thing for price and parts. Rediculously expsensive and hard to find. Hyundai is better at that. fact are facts. Cars are better than others in diffeent areas. The thing that you get attitudes about and the "holier than thou" is when people say "I think Ferrari looks better and gets more chicks, therefore it's better than Porsche" Maybe, maybe not in THAT area. All relative. Maybe when I get the Fcar this summer I will feel different "emotinally" but facts are still facts. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 181 Registered: 6-2001 |
Joren: thanks for the correction. | ||
| Joren Remans (J_remans)
New member Username: J_remans Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2002 |
Art355; one correction I would like to make. Fiat isn't partially owned by Ford at all. It's GM that has a partnership with Fiat. Fiat owns Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Ferrari and Maserati. Speculations are going around that GM would sooner or later buy Alfa Romeo or even the entire Fiat group. Also Toyota is looking at Fiat. We will see. Joren REMANS | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 180 Registered: 6-2001 |
Good job Ernie. That is the main complaint: the people who own those cars. Most of them figure they are at the top of the food chain, but they are really at the bottom of the top, and they don't realize it. When it finally dawns on them where they really are, they get huffy. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Junior Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 119 Registered: 12-2001 |
Amen Ernie! | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 151 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hey wasn't it back in 1987 when they held a top speed test? It was the Porsche 963 (dunno if the number is right) the one the was "dominating" Le Mans, against a Chevy Monet Carlo NASCAR. The price at that time for the Porsche was around $250,000, and for the Chevy $75,000. The highest speed the Porsche cranked out was 227 mph, guess what the "Good Ol Boys" ran??? 240 mph!!! that poor lil beetle couldn't even keep up. Listen it's not that I dislike Porsche. I dislike the "holy-er that thou" attitude that quiet a few Porsche drivers have. Another thing is, you see Porsche's all the time. Especially now that they have marketed them to the soccer mom's. They are getting to be the mini vans of sports cars. How often do you see a Ferrari on the road??? Not very. I had my choice of just one sports car to get. The Vett, Viper, Mustang, Porsche, NSX etc. I went with the Ferrari because plain and simple, the first time you saw one you couldn't stop thinking about it. The stylish looks, the sound, speed, history, exotic and eliteness of the car. Above all the others, when the time came that I could afford one, My first choice was the Ferrari. Now when the time comes that I have the means to get as many cars as I wish, and if I chose to I would have one of each. But the Porsche still wouldn't be on top of the list, it would make the list, but not the top. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1750 Registered: 2-2001 |
My one friend that I am pretty close with had a 99 turbodiesel (the only way to go IMO) in the truck set up (the most common, 4 doors one) with the short bed. All he had was constant problems. Brake lines blowing, trans problems, etc. It was actually faster than my jeep (doesn't say much). No problem would prevent you from driving home (ridiculous amount of redundance, probably because they knew things would break all the time), but they were all annoying. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 176 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hummers have no room, but they take up a lot of room. Hummers have less than 250HP and weigh in excess of 3 tons, gives a whole new definition of SLOW. Look good though. the new Hummer looks good and has a better interior with more power. Looks like a great improvement, for less money. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2001 |
"While I don't have one, I do have a license to fly helicopters, and have about 60 hours in a Robinson 44. You don't want to ride in one of those, they suck. Same thing for the Hummer" "You don't want a Hummer, two of my friends have them. They are the only vehicle I've ever found to be higher maintenance than the Ferrari." Even the diesel? Geez. what else is there?? Remeber that arcade game Moon Patrol? Who made that little buggy?? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 174 Registered: 6-2001 |
Frank: If Porsche decided to get into F1 again, they would have to find an established team whose chassis technology they could use, and perhaps after a few years, they might be competitive. Look at how long BMW took before they started getting close. Without Williams, I doubt they would be close. Same thing would apply to Porsche. In the 80s Porsche didn't build a car. They built a motor, and used other chassis. It is my understanding that the Ferrari F1 is a Ferrari, although a lot of the chassis technology is British and the engine technology is Japanese (the 5 valve configeration is a Yamaha patent). Also since F1 is no longer a small manufacture's playground, it would be very difficult from Porsche to enter into this playground without the financial backing of Audi. Ferrari has FIAT (which is partially owned by Ford) for its financial backing. Jag has Ford behind it, Williams has BMW, etc., etc. It is my understanding that a competitive F1 car without driver cost, runs about 60 -80 million per year. Indy Cars are far cheaper at about 9 - 11 Million per year, without driver cost (in most CART rides, the driver pays somewhere between 3 to 6 million per year). If a manufacturer wants to be competitive they need 3 cars: two for the races and one to be used for testing. That means that the minimum needed for a competitive team is in the range of 160 - 200 Million per year. A sh*tload of money. | ||
| Tom Antal (Intenso)
Junior Member Username: Intenso Post Number: 66 Registered: 5-2001 |
AMEN Bret...well said. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 637 Registered: 9-2001 |
After looking it up, I was wrong. The McLaren team won the F1 championship in 1984(Lauda), 1985(Prost) and 1986(Prost) using Porsche turbo engines. It was the only three years Porsche was involved in F1 and it won all three years. Porsche stated that it got all it wanted from F1 and quit to concentrate on sports car racing which it has dominated both before and after its 3 F1 Championshps . I wonder what would happen if Porsche again decided to enter F1 ? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1749 Registered: 2-2001 |
And I didn't mean to be personal to you in particular Todd. It's just that everyone that agrues for the Pcars acts like they are Gods gift to the automotive world. Can do no wrong and perfect, which is not true. Call it like it is. No one here is gonna try and argue that Ferrari's are reliable overall. There are downsides to BOTH cars, it just seems that only Fcar owners are willing to acknowledge this. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 171 Registered: 6-2001 |
Frank: I wasn't old enough to read in 84, but is that the only time Porsche has done anything in F1. I know they tried to build a CART engine, but it was gutless and they never won anything with it. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1748 Registered: 2-2001 |
You guys say our heritage/racing argument is getting old. When are you gonna come up with a new Porsche argument? Come on already. This topic comes up like once a month. We know that Porsches are more reliable, blah blah blah. There is just something about Ferraris that we at FERRARIchat enjoy. I mean, it makes sense to me that people on a site named this would be somewhat partial to Ferraris. Maybe this is the wrong place to make the Porsche argument, for the 10th time this year. You should know by now that Ferrari owners are stubborn and obviously not rationale. You don't want a Hummer, two of my friends have them. They are the only vehicle I've ever found to be higher maintenance than the Ferrari. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 170 Registered: 6-2001 |
Todd: While I don't have one, I do have a license to fly helicopters, and have about 60 hours in a Robinson 44. You don't want to ride in one of those, they suck. Same thing for the Hummer. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2001 |
"Hey Todd, I am not surprised your girlfriend pick the Porsche over the Ferrari. I've always considered Porsche's design somewhat feminine, ha!" LOL Yea, it's got curves just like her!! I don't have male identity issues, so it doesn't bother me. I could even drive a beetle, although ART already says I am... But, can't get more manly than Marlboro if that's what you need to prove it to yourself... This is getting fun | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 635 Registered: 9-2001 |
Further, Arthur, the Ferrari F1 cars of the late 1950s and early 1960s were entered as Lancia-Ferrari, not as Ferrari. Ferrari continued to make drivetrains for Fiats and Lancis up through the 1990s. Ferrari is a division of Fiat. Ferrari is to Fiat what Pontiac is to GM. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 634 Registered: 9-2001 |
Arthur, In 1984 the McLaren team with Tag-Porsche engines won both 1st(Nikka Lauda) and 2nd(Alaine Prost) in the F1 Championship . And, Fiat first purchased most of Ferrari's road car company in 1969 with the first option to buy the rest if Enzo and/or his heirs later decided to sell the rest. Enzo maintained control of the F1 team and concentrated his efforts thereto since 1969. The fact is Enzo never cared a darn about road cars and only started building them at Chinnetis recommendation to pay for F1. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2001 |
Art: I agree w/ that. Of course the "true" racers are torn aprt and such w/ blueprinting. They even do that w/ racing jet skis. The point I was making is that for the most part you can go buy a stock GT@ from a dealer, race it as is. It will be sold, fast, and reliable, and still do very well. AND, then you can drive it home and use it as a daily driver. Then head back to the track next week. Simply not so w/ Ferrari. BTW: A Porsche or Ferrari isn't really the car here, although we have dealers. What we need is up here is a damb HUMMER, w/ a hell of a climate control system, auto-inflate tires for the potholes, and some kind of GPS to steer us away from the construction. Mayber a helicopter is best. of which there is NO dealer I am aware of. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Junior Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 244 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hey Todd, I am not surprised your girlfriend pick the Porsche over the Ferrari. I've always considered Porsche's design somewhat feminine, ha! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 169 Registered: 6-2001 |
Todd: Are you saying that the winning cars haven't been worked on? If so, I beg to differ. Everytime, I've seen a car with a serious team, they are taken apart, and reassembled to ensure that they are as close to prefect as possible. That includes engine blueprinting, chassis measurement, and so on. You're comments about the Porsches being showroom stock are telling. The reality is that Porsche is a souped up VW, they were created from VW. Fiat on the other hand purchased the stock of Ferrari in the 80s. The only FIAT connection was the Dino engine which was used in the Fiats when Ferrari wouldn't manufacture enough to qualify for the FIA. Those engines which ultimately powered the Dino (which never did carry the Ferrari name) were used for hill climbs in competition. I think that Ferrari hill climb vehicle dominated that segment of the sport over Porsche until the formula was changed. I notice that you live in Detroit. I can see why you need something like a Porsche with the weather there. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 35 Registered: 11-2001 |
Just asked my girlfriend which LOOKS better a 993 or a Ferrari. She said the 993 is the best looking car there is.....So, thats solves it!!! LOL ;) | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Junior Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 101 Registered: 7-2001 |
Frank, They won the French Grand Prix and the Solitude Grand Prix in 1962. Dan Gurney came first in both of those Formula 1 races.  I guess they were too busy preparing their 30 year dominance at LeMans to really succedd at Formula 1. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2001 |
" I have been in the business of racing and know that what is on the track bears little resemblence to what we buy at the show room" I disagree. As James stated, you can go to a dealer right now and buy a GT2 (if you can find one) and take it home and park it in your garage. Tomorrow you can enter and race it at leman, daytona, sebring whatever and smoke almost everyone (if you know how to drive, call yourself "team prove my point") 95% of a dealer Gt2 is a straightup race car. THen, you can drive the thing home ON THE ROAD and use it to go to work everyday. Now, you can go to a Ferrari dealer and buy a car (again, if you can find one) and race that. Good Luck!! Ferrari highly modifies their racing/challenge cars and they STILL do TERRIBLE!!! That's if they even finish! AND, you will have to trailer them home either because they are broke, or NOT street legal. So, a street legal Ferrari isn't even in the ballpark...Some may say what about the F40 and F50. Well, we will see when the Carrera GT comes out which will not only compete with them, but is also a daily road car. As far as viper and Checy and Ford. Yes they have times they did well. Gm used to do great in Transam. But, the Detroit tigers won a few games last year also...they are no where NEAR the top. I'm not really coming down on ferrari, they are gorgeous cars. I watching them race at cavalinno was a hell of an experience. But, I feel their strengh is primarily in their looks, and pretige(mainly because they are so expensive..although POrsche has expsene and prestige as well) Which brings me to another point. Why is expensive always associated with pretige.? There are plenty of hideously expensive things out there that are simply junk. I do however feel the 996 4S and the 993 are everybit as beautiful as Ferraris and sound just as good. But overall appearance wise, I'm with you, most every Ferrari made had been a looker (mondail eww), even the outdated TR still looks superb to me. BTW: Porsche seperated from VW in the mid 60's. Although the roofline still resembles the bug it in no way at all is the same car "souped up" Franks Fiat statement is right on. I am not partial to Porsche. I just defend facts. When i get my F car this summer, who knows if the Porsche will go. Something about the little sunroff in a 911 that bothers me. Who knows, maybe I have bad taste, I think Lamborghinis are ugly. To wild and crazy, and rediculous. But, I have friends who drool over them. AND, Porsche does this all on theri own completely independent company. No backing from FIAT. There is a saying (although it does not pertain to the 996 4S and 993) "If you want a good car, buy a Porsche, if you want to look good in a car, buy a Ferrari" Some vague truth to that I suppose overall. THe 959 wasn't so pretty but smoked everyone and still won Parker Davis OFF-ROAD. The lowly 944 was the best handgling car in the world for 8 years. 49% 51% split. I still think the 993 is one of the most beautiful cars ever made, but I sure as hell wouldnt take it over an F50 no matter how much my towing/pushing bill would be | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 168 Registered: 6-2001 |
Frank: What year did Porsche win F1? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 633 Registered: 9-2001 |
I'm not a great Porsche fan . But, I have to admit that since 1965 or so Porsche has dominated any type of racing they decided to enter world wide. Ferrari is not even close. And, if a Porsche is a souped up VW, then Ferrari is a souped up Fiat. | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Junior Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 100 Registered: 7-2001 |
Ernie, Porsche dominated LeMans in the 70s, 80s and 90s. That is 3 decades of victory. Didnt Audi (Porsches sister company) win the prototype class last year?? At least Porsche was there racing last year, I didnt see too many Ferraris on the grid, and I definatly didnt see many of the ones that started, finish. James | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2001 |
I LOVE IT!!!! Mix it up fellas. Porsche Smorsche. Go on and toot your horn about Datona 24hr. How is it that the Vipers beat the sh!t out of the Porsche's at La Mans 24hr for the last few years? Now it isn't a Ferrari but it still spanked the Porsche. If you wanna add American cars to the mix lets included them all. Oh and let's see if I recall correctly the C5R did win the whole enchilada at last years Datona 24hr. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 165 Registered: 6-2001 |
Todd: I was talking about cars we can drive, not race cars. I have been in the business of racing and know that what is on the track bears little resemblence to what we buy at the show room. If you are going to compare Porsche's racing, look at Ford or Cheverolet, both of them, when they wanted to dominated racing. An example Ford at Le Mans, Ford in Formula 1, etc. Apples to apples, the Ferraris are faster for the average driver, they are easier to drive, and they are almost as reliable. I've had grief with my Porsche and no grief with the 355. Last point: Porsche doesn't even come lost the image of Ferrari. Remember it is a souped up VW bottom line. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
Member Username: 4re308 Post Number: 423 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hmm, interesting topic. If I may be allowed to chime in....I had an 84 911 Carrera coupe before I got my 308 QV. The Porsche was SO entertaining to drive, I just loved driving the crap out of it. It was so reliable I never did a thing to it, except oil. It was KINDA fast, it was mildly breathed on and had 260 HP. It was a blast, and was loud as any RSR. I sure did like that car. But guess what? Its night and day difference between a 911 and a 308. So far, my 308 is just as reliable as the 911. The 308 is just as fast, if not faster. I think the 308 is a million times more beautiful than the 911. The 308 sounds better, looks better, is faster and people tend to smile a bit more when I fly by them in the 308. I still have a place in my heart for Porsches, but my heart rightfully belongs to Ferrari now. | ||
| bob snow (Resnow)
New member Username: Resnow Post Number: 16 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bad news is I had to push my 250 once in a huge traffic jam when the ignition coil fuse opened up. Good news is that the cop directing traffic called a buddy cop over and helped me push it through the traffic into a parking lot. Bad news was that I had a fake license plate and no insurance. Good news is the cop was so interested in the car he didn't notice, even though he was pushing on the plate itself. More good news is that he actually went to his patrol car to get me a rubber band to help hold the fuse clips tight on the fuse so I could drive it home. Pushing Ferraris can be exciting! | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hey Bret, I think this will be my last reply as you got personal. I am not naive, maybe you are? Check YOUR facts. Porsche has 23,000 victories. How does that make Ferraris 5,000 more?? And, the 962( I don't know how many it won, but it beat everyone for so many years it was ditched, so that 23,000 would be higher). No I dont work for Porsche, think I'm really a CEO of Porsche?? give me a break. And, I'm obsessed? You just posted 4 times in a row!! I didn't say they were a flawless car. but facts are facts. Talk to people who KNOW! I know Vette owners and and Ferrari owners who race, as well Porsche. This is what they tell me, and it is what I see at the track. And this garbage about, mytique. sure there is a mystique w/ Ferrari. But what about James Dean Ever heard of him?? So let me get this straight, Porsches will never break down and are better than Corvettes and Ferraris on the track, day in and day out. Alright... Do you work for Porsche? How come you're so obsessed with them. One thing is to objectively view a car's pros and cons, when you think a car only has pros though it is often referred to as being naive. Of course they break down from time to time, but Yes in the long run they are more reliable tha Crovette and Ferrari on the track. Objective?? Why is Joe blow the name of evey mechanic? Think you are an expert mechanic, and the other hard working guys are just Joe Blows?? After all maybe your right, maybe I am naive and know nothing, and you know everything. But, Ferrairs sure do look and sound good. they definatley beat Porsche there (my personal view) with the exception of the 993 and 996 4S. All in good fun a susual | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Junior Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 99 Registered: 7-2001 |
I really dont understand why many of you feel that because of Ferraris success in F1, you somehow share all of that racing prowess in your street cars. Very little of the technology finds its way into the street cars Ferrari produces. Sure the 5 valve heads and the F1 style shifters are amazing technology to say the least( and there are probably a few other things also) but unless you have a 355 or 360 that is really where it ends. Many of you like to use the F40, F50 and Koenig cars to bench race against the turbo porsches. But it is obvious that those cars are few and far between, whearas there are many mega horspower porsche owners ready to race at any time. I am not going to explore the racing heritage of Ferrari. The are obviously the best when it comes to F1 racing. The best there ever was and probably the best there ever will be. But the racing history of Porsche is nothing to be ashamed of. In fact, Porsche dominated in most of the sports car races and Le Mans for 3 decades, using factory based street cars with racing parts. Any ordinary fellow can buy the racing parts from Porsche for their 911's and essentially have all of the race technology in their garage. This whole "Ferrari racing heritage" line is wearing a bit thin in all of your arguments. Especially when you are talking about F1 race cars. James | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1742 Registered: 2-2001 |
So let me get this straight, Porsches will never break down and are better than Corvettes and Ferraris on the track, day in and day out. Alright... Do you work for Porsche? How come you're so obsessed with them. One thing is to objectively view a car's pros and cons, when you think a car only has pros though it is often referred to as being naive. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1741 Registered: 2-2001 |
And, I never said a Porsche was a bad car. I may not like them, but I do respect them. Not once will you ever find a post of mine that says that are a bad car when it comes to performance, mechanics, etc if those are the criteria that are used to evaluate. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1740 Registered: 2-2001 |
Porsche did much better than Ferrari at Daytona, they did real well back in F1 too. Remember that. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1739 Registered: 2-2001 |
Last time I checked my stats (maybe you should recheck yours) Ferrari was the most winning race team with over 5000 wins, this is per Enzo Ferrari's biography. I really doubt the 962 singlehandedly won over 5000 races. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2001 |
"And when all is said and done, it's still a Porsche. Buy a Ferrari and you get a piece of the most famous (and most winning) racing team in history." You get the mystique, the wild side, the Ferrari lifestyle, etc Uh, check the facts. Most winning?? I don't think so. Ever hear of the Porsche 962?? The Ferraris sure did good at the daytona 24hr last month NOT. And, Porsche set two more records. Lifestyle. Many consider Porsche a very classy name, and classy crowd. Different from Ferrari, but not worse. "And more reliable horsepower." That is key. Ferrari will give you a hell of a run for a few days at the track, then it's repair time. Porsche will let you push to the limits day after day and still beg for more. All the time not needed a bit of repair. REliable power. and, all from a 6cyl. Wait until the Carrera Gt is out next year. Oh boy. 10 cyl "In the hands of equally skilled drivers, the Ferrari is faster. That is my experience. The Porsche has its points, but when you eliminate price as a criteria, it loses to the Ferrari every time." Everytime?? No Sure didn't lose at Daytona this year. they even put a bigger wing on one car and raced in a class they weren't even set up for and still did well. The Vette is not faster than the Porsche period. Drivers make a huge difference. The Corvette is a great car, especially for the $, but it is not made to last at its limits. You can push it hard a few times, and thta's it. Same w/ Ferrari. You can push a Porsche everyday and it justs asks for more. Yes, some older porsche have happy rear ends, but they still outhandle about any car on the raod. A 1969 Porsche will outhandle most cars on the road. Not every Ferrari handles like an Indy car. not to knock Ferrari because I very much like them, an intend to buy one this summer, but in calling Porsche a bad car does not make a Ferrari a better one. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 162 Registered: 6-2001 |
James: If you recall, Car & Driver tested the 360, 550, the Boxter, the Turbo, Corvette, etc. in a test done at Thunderhill. That test was done in 2000. The fastest car was a 360, with the Corvette second. The test was done with a professional driver and several amateurs. The 360 turned a lap time of 2:06, and the Turbo 2:11 (this is from memory, not the Article). Interestingly, in 2000, at a 4 hour endurance race (which we got 2nd) I ran 1:55s on a Suzuki 750. In the hands of equally skilled drivers, the Ferrari is faster. That is my experience. The Porsche has its points, but when you eliminate price as a criteria, it loses to the Ferrari every time. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1729 Registered: 2-2001 |
And when all is said and done, it's still a Porsche. Buy a Ferrari and you get a piece of the most famous (and most winning) racing team in history. You get the mystique, the wild side, the Ferrari lifestyle, etc. If we're gonna debate about cars that can be made to go fast and be serviced easily, but a Corvette or a Cobra and modify it, which still could be serviced at every joe blow gas station in the country. Up here in sticks CT they'd laugh at you if you wanted to get a Pcar serviced, and we're only like 30 minutes from Hartford. | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Junior Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 96 Registered: 7-2001 |
"If we want Saturns fine, but if you want performance then why a Porsche?" 1. Because the 996 twinner is faster than the current 360. 2. The 911 Turbo can be made to have lots of horspower for a lot less money than Ferraris. And more reliable horsepower. 3. The Porsches with big horsepower can be serviced at many Porsche dealerships (who is going to service your Koenig Testarossa???), and the tuner companies have big service networks (RUF, Techart, ANDIAL, Bob Holcombe, Powerhaus). 3. They are more reliable, which means the they are more practical for racers to own who actually want to race their cars and drive them hard on the street. They will not have to worry about them being in the shop for 6 months waiting for brake pads and cracked headers. 4. The back end kicking out on the older 930's is actually not a bad thing in the hands of a skilled driver. Have any of you seen the video with the RUF CTR yellowbird going around the 'ring'?? It is amazing to say the least. Art, I know you race your 355 Challenge car, but you cannot deny that the 911 turbos make a good stock race car, and when they are tuned for racing, dollar for dollar they beat the Ferraris without question. James | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 161 Registered: 6-2001 |
As an ex-porsche owner, I'd still rather push the Ferrari than drive the porsche. I had an 86 turbo. Every time you started to go fast, the back end would remind you that the Porsche was unwilling. While the Ferraris had trouble, driving one was a much better experience. If we want Saturns fine, but if you want performance then why a Porsche? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 160 Registered: 6-2001 |
As an ex-porsche owner, I'd still rather push the Ferrari than drive the porsche. I had an 86 turbo. Every time you started to go fast, the back end would remind you that the Porsche was unwilling. While the Ferraris had trouble, driving one was a much better experience. If we want Saturns fine, but if you want performance then why a Porsche? | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
New member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2001 |
"I rather push my Ferrari than drive a Porsche" At least w/ the quality of a Porsche you have the opportunity to drive it, not just push it!! Sorry, had to do it ;) | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 618 Registered: 9-2001 |
Per his biography Enzo Ferrari was an American country music fan. So I guess that would make him a "redneck" too. | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Junior Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 116 Registered: 7-2001 |
Louis, that is a dreadful story. A $1200.00 bill and 8 hrs. of country! I would have needed a tall cool one after that. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 140 Registered: 11-2001 |
Oh thats funny Frank. After I had a new clutch and fly wheel put in my car, it was like I had never driven stick before. Haha, I wasn't used to how quickly it engaged and on the way home from the mechanics shop I stalled the car a few times, cause I was so used to the old clutch slipping so much. Try that at a busy intersection, during rush hour, not once but a couple of times, that is embarassing, LOL. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 603 Registered: 9-2001 |
I bought my 330GTC sight unseen and had it delivered from Pa. to my office near Atlanta. The delivery driver started the car up and backed it out of the truck and I took over. I drove it around a while and then parked it at the office to finish my day at work. After work I went out to the car to start it and it wouldn't start. I was pissed! Everything was closed by then and I had it towed to my body mans shop who had an ex-FAF mechanic doing service work there. I just left it in front of his shop and got a ride home. The next morning I gave him a call to see if he found out what was wrong. He said nothing was wrong that it started right up. When I went to pick up the car I again couldn't get it to start. The tech came out and started it right up. He then showed me what I was doing wrong. On a 330GTC you have an electric fuel pump with a toggle switch on the dash that you have to turn on a few seconds before you start the car to fill the carbs and prime the mechanical fuel pump. After the car runs a couple of minutes you turn it off and the mechanical fuel pump takes over. I was embarrassed to say the least. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 602 Registered: 9-2001 |
Louis, what country was the music tapes from ? | ||
| Louis Bevilacqua (Toby91)
New member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 8 Registered: 4-2001 |
I never had to push my 328 but when I lost my water pump seal at a track event at the Glen I sure didn't like sitting in a flat bed with the car in back for a 400 mile run back to Cape Cod (at $3/mile!!) The worst part however was listening to 8 hrs of country music tapes. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 138 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well just talked to the mechanic and the rebuild on the alternator is complete. I also had him put in a set of new plugs while he was at it. Let's hope I don't have to push it anymore, but if the time arises I will proudly do it again, but then call AAA after it is parked, lol. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 153 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernie: My 348 Syder would constantly show the slow down light, and then stop running on one set of cylinders. One time, both sides quit and I had to park it. After about 10 minutes, it started right up and I drove away. Within a month, I had a 355, and never had that problem again. It was the ECU units that were bad. I've been told that sometimes it is the oxygen sensor that fails, causing the ignition to turn itself off. There is a certain symbolism in pushing your Ferrari. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1697 Registered: 2-2001 |
Only twice have I lost power (one fuel related, or a lack of it, the other a blown fuse) both were on the same road that my street is off of which is small and I just coasted to a stop on the side. After the electrical problem everytime I was in the fast lane of the highway I could only think of one thing. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 336 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have had to push my 308 and it is embarrassing. | ||
| Mark C. Gordon (Markg)
Junior Member Username: Markg Post Number: 122 Registered: 2-2001 |
Edward - my 308's death was also fuel pump relay/fuse related; new relays, glass fuses and cleaning fuse block solved issue; to avoid having to push it ever again I spent last weekend hot wiring the fuel pump from battery -> switch -> fuel pump. Now if I loose a relay or fuse I just flip the switch and have emergency direct power to the pump! I also added a manual switch to my fans. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1574 Registered: 12-2000 |
These cars ain't light either. I needed help pushing my car off onto the shoulder once (Alternator... what else?). | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1685 Registered: 2-2001 |
That's a great quote Ernie. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 137 Registered: 11-2001 |
Ah yes the joys of ownership. Enzo was a smart cookie he was. Make a car that looks great, is fast, expensive, unreliable and a pain to work on. You'll make a fortune on the parts and repairs! Non the less "I rather push my Ferrari than drive a Porsche" | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 829 Registered: 2-2001 |
When mine quit with a bad fuel pump relay and I had to push it out of the road it was super embarrasing. I was in my work uniform pushing a Ferrari. That was real good advertisement. | ||
| nick l (Nsxnick)
New member Username: Nsxnick Post Number: 24 Registered: 7-2001 |
there is nothing that gives jealouse onlookers more pleasure than seeing a ferrari owner push is car. | ||
| Mark C. Gordon (Markg)
Junior Member Username: Markg Post Number: 121 Registered: 2-2001 |
I had similar situation to Ernie - when my 308 'crossed over' in traffic there was no shortage of willing helpers....but I share Magoo's opinion - I did not find it a bit funny! | ||
| NGSVDO (Azspider)
New member Username: Azspider Post Number: 37 Registered: 6-2001 |
I can relate. I just picked up my 355 on Saturday from the dealer for an annual service, went to the golf course on Sunday, stopped for gas and when I went to leave the battery was dead. The guy next to me gave me a push to get it started and I went home from there. I think I may have an alt problem too. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Intermediate Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 1993 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ernie, I don't think I would have been that understanding about the entire situation. I would have been more pissed off then having a grin on my face. I gotta hand it to ya. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1680 Registered: 2-2001 |
Nice Ernie. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 132 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well turned out just as I figured the alternator was bad. The mechanic is rebuilding it. About my mechanic, shop it is in the next city from where I live. Actually I was about 5 mile from the shop, but alot of that was down hill, so I coasted quite abit. I could have called AAA but I was having too much fun watching the reactions on peoples faces when they saw me pushing it. What is even funnier is how helpful people become when you are pushing a Ferrari. "Do you need a jump" or "Should I call somebody for you", oh man the grin I would get on my face. They thought I was nuts. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Junior Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 241 Registered: 3-2001 |
Too funny Ernie... patient bunch, ain't we? Hope there comes a day when you can drive further than a block away from your mechanic's shop! :-) | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Junior Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 151 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernie: Better your pushing it than me. Let us know what was wrong. Art | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1498 Registered: 5-2001 |
Good for you! Keep up the spirit. And let us know what the problem was. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 131 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hey fellas, The other night I was out for an evening cruse in my 348, when the radio cut out. Well soon after that the lights went dim, then the car shut off. Yes the mechanics in the house are starting to analize this problem, lol. My self I think it was the belt or alternator. Any how, I was relatively close to my mechanics shop, so I decided to push it. Yes thats right push it. I do have AAA towing but you know what, here was a rare opportunity to live a saying, "I rather push my Ferrari than drive a Porsche", and I proudly did so right to the mechanics shop. |