| Author | Message | ||
| Chris Pounds (Eggman)
New member Username: Eggman Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2002 |
In today's Wall Street Journal (6/26) in the "Personal Journal" section, on the last page (D8), there is an article entitled "Fiat Is in Talks to Sell 35% of Its Ferrari Unit." Decent discussion on the issue, plus GM's possible role. Chris. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 995 Registered: 9-2001 |
If GM bought Ferrari they could sell them as Pontiacs. Instead of producing a new model every few years they could just add body cladding like they have been doing for years with the cars they make now. ha ha | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 160 Registered: 5-2002 |
As of 1999 10% of all Ferrari profits came frommerchandising | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2908 Registered: 2-2001 |
You are right Bruno. Sadly it looks like they are trying very hard to keep their heads above water. | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 156 Registered: 5-2002 |
Even at 35% they would still have controlling interest left. For now. It is getting scary though. | ||
| RM Valher (Rmv)
Junior Member Username: Rmv Post Number: 64 Registered: 4-2002 |
Well I have just received word that FIAT's chairman and chief executive Paolo Fresco has announced that FIAT will sell up to 35% of its share in Ferrari in order to quickly raise funds to slash its AUS$10 billion dollars of debt (roughly halve that figure for US$). Hmmmmmm. | ||
| RM Valher (Rmv)
Junior Member Username: Rmv Post Number: 63 Registered: 4-2002 |
whoops, sorry. See above | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 96 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bruno I had seen that 82 308 advertised in Hemmings for 19k as well and was curious about it. I know that they did have a 2 valve 308 at the museum but I couldn't figure why the low price. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 95 Registered: 5-2002 |
Four years ago I had to buy the first PRACTICAL vehicle of my life, I wanted something reliable that I would have to spend the least amount of money on I chose a 94 toyota p'up. Out of the 40+ vehicles I have owned it is undeniably the most reliable, when I first bought it I repeatedly checked the oil and was amazed that it was always full. I also happen to have a new 25k chevy van co. vehicle which we have had many problems with and also a silverado which has been a moneypit. As someone who has experience with both these vehicles I would say Toyota has a definate edge over gm. As for Ferrari it should stay all Italian as it has always been. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2906 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mark, Don't get all upset here. If you notice I said if a big auto manuf. took over Ferrari. The take over would certainly make a difference as to who promotes the name of Ferrari. If Ferrari is backed by big money that is ok but to have it thrown into a large auto manf. it is labled at that point to be their product and it will lose its "Pedigree." That's how I see it. | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2001 |
Magoo- I don't understand why its so important who owns the company? What if MCI or Nike buys Ferrari? Financial ownership is just words on a piece of paper? Lets face it, even most MBA's fresh out of college are smart enough to let Ferrari be Ferrari. Lambo did fine while it was owned by a rich oil-man's son? (don't remember that whole story) buyers and owners change... the company is doing just fine. Or if you are worried about prestige what if Pricewaterhouse Coopers or Merrill Lynch decides to pick up a trophy asset and grabs up Ferrari if Fiat falls. Is it that GM or Ford just doesn't have rich appeal? Could Rolex buy Ferrari and it not lose any grace in the eyes of the Upper-class? Ferrari has choosen to stay small and spend all its money on racing. It is a naked child in the financial world, its name-brand alone (forget about small sales dollar volume of actual output)is worth the buying price. Without Fiat and the Italian government to sheild it...it will surely be snapped up. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2904 Registered: 2-2001 |
RMV hit the correct word when he said "Pedigree." You can hang your hat on this word and that sums it up. Granted when compared to others it may be expensive to maintain and certain mechanical designs are not what we think compared to other sports cars. Given all that it is the name Ferrari, the passion, the great feeling of owning one of the untouchables. It is special to own one. How many people do you know who have owned a Ferrari in their lifetime, excluding F.C. members? If a big auto manuf. took over the co. I can envision the car becoming a knock off image and not having the personal touch of the Enzo legacy. I would lose all enthusiasim for the car and I think a great piece of sports car history would be tarnished for ever and eventually lost. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2002 |
Interesting that you mention the Toyota 4runner. That's a decendant of the Toyota Landcruiser which was basically a total ripoff of the Willys Jeep. Check the Vintage Four Wheel Drive book and see the photos of the Japanese 4wd vehicles produced at the end of WWII. They just copied the success of the Willys Jeep design. So the Toyota 4WD's total lineage is based on a U.S. manufactured 4WD vehicle. "Everyone I know with GM products (including trucks and SUVs) says they are crap" Well that's just not true we me or anyone I know. I drive a GMC and it's not crap. A friend of mine who could afford any nice Ferrari drives a '97 GMC pickup and is about to order a new Suburban or Tahoe. If GM vehicles are unreliable, why do the rental fleets use them? | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 171 Registered: 1-2002 |
89 Toyota 4runner sitting in my garage with 140K hard miles on it (lots of offroading, used mainly in winter) Very little highway miles. Repairs so far: 1 clutch slave cylinder at about 125K, cost about 200. I think. Still has original brakes, clutch and shocks and light bulbs. I did replace exhaust (lots of salt on roads. The little truck is still very tight, feels like it could go a million miles. I have driven, ridden GM products of similar vintage and miles and they are ready to come apart. Everyone I know with GM products (including trucks and SUVs) says they are crap. Lots of recalls, stuff wears out fast. Of course, they do cost less than Toyotas initially. So I will take horsefly's wager, hopefully he will live to pay and I will live to collect! Everytime I get a GM car at a rental counter I can't believe anyone would buy one. Of course, without fleet sales I guess no one does. Dave | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks for the tip Bruno, but at that price, I'm sure the locals have already jumped on it. Wish I was closer. You're correct, some greedy low life would probably buy it to part out on e-bay. | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 147 Registered: 5-2002 |
Horsefly-Cheapest one I know of right now. I have never seen it. But you might want to check into it. It says obo. At this price it is geting near part out value of 15k. FOR SALE FERRARI: 1982 308GTSi, red, ZEFAA02A3C00399, previously displayed at the Yankee Candle Car Museum, $19,000 obo. Barre Tozloski, 413-548-9802 or 413-626-2222, MA. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2002 |
I will also agree on the boring part. Reliable yes, exciting, not so good. To me, GM has a history of designing very exciting concept cars, and then when their production models come out, the concept ideas must have hit the trash can because the production cars are very ho-hum. And very few cars actually have the V8 and full perimeter frame that makes for a very long lived vehicle. Most everything nowadays is unibody construction. Great until you have a wreck then a pain to repair. I heard that the Camaro is now down the drain. Of course when I finally do locate that bargain priced 308 Ferrari needing restoration, I will use the GMC to trailer it home. So everyone will be happy then. Now the problem is finding the 308! | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 144 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sad and Boring !!! | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 440 Registered: 2-2001 |
GM is still making cars? I thought people stopped buying those years ago. Seriously, you can't compare a GM product with a Toyota/Lexus. GM's overall product line is sad... Ernesot | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 467 Registered: 3-2001 |
Horsefly, as I mentioned earlier, it's great to see there are still some people out there like yourself who perceive GM as being a good product. That's great! I know GM has lost a lot of it's loyal customers over the last 10-15 years. And to read Consumer Reports on GM, they paint a pretty ugly picture. You'd think the things were made in the old Yugo factories. I guess Consumer Reports must be in bed with Toyota because they sure praise the Japanese cars. Anyway, back to Ferrari.... enjoy your pick-up! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2002 |
Yes Bob, that's what I am saying. I'll buy a 2002 GMC/Chevrolet pickup truck today and someone else can buy a 2002 Lexus/Toyota/whatever and lets see which one is still running down the road 15 years from now. And we'll also compare repair costs and see who got off cheaper. My money is on the GMC/Chevy every time. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 466 Registered: 3-2001 |
Horsefly, correct me if I'm off base here... are you stating that "wimpy vehicles" (I assume that means Lexus/Toyota?) won't last as long as GM products? You are right... you ARE from the old school, aren't you? Where've you been for the last 15 years? I'll bet GM wishes they had more people like you still in their camp! Actually I think it's great that there are still some people out there who feel GM makes a good product. GM is certainly an important part of the world economy. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 170 Registered: 1-2002 |
A couple of two cent pieces: 1. When Fiat bought most of Ferrari, they were smart enough to let it be independent. True, there is some fiat stuff in Ferraris, but so is there bosch stuff and a host of others. 2. As long as Ferraris (or any cars) are very limited productions, quality and reliability will never be Toyota-like. There simply aren't enough units to amortize high development costs, even at 150K per copy, and Ferrari can't simply modify an existing "platform" to develop new models. 3. Hopefully, any future owners will be smart enough to leave Ferrari to the Italians because no other country can build cars with the Italian flair and passion that makes all the shortcomings possible to forgive. Dave | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2002 |
I guess that I don't worry very much about resale value because when I buy a GM vehicle, I naturally assume that it will last for so many years that it won't have any resale value by the time it finally wears out anyway. Of course with other more wimpy vehicles, you have to assume after 2 or 3 years that it is about to fail, so you will naturally want a big resale value when you unload, er, resell it. I guess I have old time thinking. I think when you pay $15,000 or $20,000 and up for a vehicle, then it should last 10 or 15 years like they use to. Of course I will definately admit that a 20 year old Ferrari is alot more desirable that a 20 year old Chevy. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 296 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ed, you are certainly more qualified to matters relating to GM than I am. My experiences with the 3 corvettes I owned and a Z28 Camaro were vastly different than yours, but anybody can build a POS every once in a while, and I must admit, I loved my 'vettes. I certainly like the new C5 Vette, I think it is one of the best buys on the market, and I like the styling. Again, my argument is that there is probably no company that would make a good parent for Ferrari other than Fiat. I do agree that GM has an excellent racing history, but I noticed the majority of individuals you cited as an example of a potentially good steward for Ferrari are either dead or have left GM... This is a problem for many car manufactures, the men of vision are just not there anymore, or are stifeld by "committee" engineering and styling. This is not only at GM, but Ford and Chrysler as well. It is my hope that Bob Lutz can turn GM around, it is important that he does, for everyone, GM fan or not. Thanks, Ed, I certainly respect your opinion. Chris | ||
| Mark (Study)
Member Username: Study Post Number: 275 Registered: 10-2001 |
As the Big 3 have lost market share to the global economy, they have switched stratigy from trying to beat the Lexus to buying car companies like Ford did with its ownership of Jag. Ford can take Jags image and add some quality and tooling and compete with Lexus. But they don't do it from the drawing board any more. It has gotten so bad that most can't tell you who owns Lambo? Audi, but VW owns Audi and doesn't BMW have a share of VW? GM bought Fiat to help their Euro business...but now I"m sure they are looking for a way to spin this loser into a win. Getting Ferrari would be a nice little prize. So the question now is not about the name. But the odds of Ferrari going public, or being sold to the highest bidder. WHO KNOWS WHAT FERRARI HAS TO DO TO GO PUBLIC? Do we have any Investment Bankers lurking???? motorsports may have built Ferrari, but it will be the nerds in accountanting and finaince (not daring engineers or racers) that decide where it ends up next. When Timex buys Rolex.... people will still lust after Rolexs. | ||
| RM Valher (Rmv)
Junior Member Username: Rmv Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ferraris are worshipped not because they are "quirky" or expensive. In my opinion they are worshipped because they have a glorious history of achievement in motorsport that trickles down to the road cars. Because the road cars of today are seen as descendents of the true greats of motorsport (250 TR, 250 GT SWB, 250 GTO, 250 LM) they are seen as being that little bit more special than other sports cars. If Corvettes had the motor sport history of a Ferrari (and I'm not just talking about racing at LeMans, I'm talking about winning there numerous times during that great era of the Sportscar Championships), they'd be considered sacred also, regardless of being a GM product. Look at the Ford GT40; they are just as worshipped and vaunted by wealthy collectors and race drivers as any Ferrari of similar vintage. Pedigree is what makes a Ferrari a Ferrari, not quirkiness. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 465 Registered: 3-2001 |
Horsefly, one of the reasons people like myself buy Toyota/Lexus or Honda/Acura is resale (obviously in addition to reliability/quality). Here's an example: You pay $50,000 for a new Lexus or you can pay $42,000 for what appears to be a GM equivilent. In 3 years, the Lexus is worth $40,000, the GM is worth $22,000. So which is the better value? Which costs less to drive? Ed, it's probably because of GM products that you're driving a Ferrari. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1505 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have owned GM cars all my life and I also specialize in them and am also a grad of the General Motors University. I currently own a 1996 Impala SS as well as my old trusty Corvair. I trust both of them over my Ferrari. Does GM ever make a bad car? Sure they have, when you make as many cars as they do then some will slip out but by and large they make some of the best for the money cars in the world. You also have to give them credit for trying new things that even though they don't work out at least they have the foresite to experiment. You can just read the threads on this site and try to decide which Ferraris are the "good" ones. It is full of threads saying not to buy this or that year or model because all the bugs were not worked out. If I spend $150,000 for a car I expect ALL the bugs to be worked out no matter what year or model it is or who made it. GM has heritage just as Ferrari does with great names such as Duntov, Cole, Delorean, and Mitchell so Enzo's baby would be in good hands. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 28 Registered: 5-2002 |
Cmparrf40, You must have gotten a bad Corvette. I drive a 1995 GMC pickup that I bought used in 1997. Over 120,000 miles on it and I have never done anything major to it except change the oil. I drove a 1979 Pontiac for 12 years with no problems. How could any vehicle be more reliable than a GM product? The standard American GM car with the Chevrolet designed V8 engine will easily last 150,000 miles or more with very little maintenance. Just think of all the GM V8 powered cars that receive major abuse and no maintenance from their owners but the old clunkers still keep moving on down the road. I don't think a twin cam engine with timing belts could ever be the American workhorse that the Chevrolet designed V8 engine has been. Anytime some average working person asks my advice on automobiles, I tell them to buy an American V8 powered GM product. Of course most everyone nowadays is enamoured with Toyotas or Hyundais or whatever and they ignore my advice. So I laugh a little when they have to pay big bucks to have a timing belt changed before it snaps and blows their engine to shreds. For a daily driver, make mine a GM V8!!! | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 295 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ed, let me add, I think your concept is understandable, but imho GM is the wrong company (is there a right company?). It is kinda like the old saying: " I'd never belong to a Country Club that would have me as a member" If it is not difficult to obtain, it loses its value, kinda like a Timex, great watch, but not something you strive to own. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 294 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ed, have you ever owned a General Motors product? I have, my Corvettes would pass everything but the Service Department. My 355 has been far more reliable than anything GM ever dreamed of building. The average American may expect more, but they certainly do not get it from GM. Without Bob Lutz in control, I doubt GM will survive the next 10 years against companies such as Toyota. Even Ford with its current problems has a brighter future than GM. GM could not even save Olsmobile, can you imagine what they would do to Ferrari? As Magoo said, this is scary! While I do agree that the Corvette is a nice car... it will never be Ferrari. Remember, GM owned Lotus? Remember the immediate improvement in quality? Neither do I! | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1504 Registered: 2-2001 |
It is not a sin to make a good product and give the customer his moneys worth. They can still make the Ferrari a limited production car with the dependability that you should expect to receive for an insane amount of money. If the Corvette was rebadged as a Ferrari and lowered the production there would be buyers at $150,000 waiting in line. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 484 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ed: I've got to agree with you, BUT one of the reasons to own a Ferrari is their exclusivity. If GM turned Ferrari into a mass produced car, the ownership demographics would change. For the worst in my opinion. I'd like the quality, like that timex, but I love the nature of the car. A corvette may be faster, more reliable, cheaper, and easier to maintain, but it isn't a Ferrari, does feel like the Ferrari, and certainly isn't comparable to Ferrari, other than the numbers put up in a road test. An example of what I mean is that the new BMW bike makes the same numbers on a road test as a Ducati. They are totally different vehicles when you are riding them. Same deal with the Corvette and the Ferrari. Art | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 105 Registered: 8-2001 |
Edward, If your logic was good, we'd all be wearing a Timex ! | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1503 Registered: 2-2001 |
If GM owned Ferrari they would make it a better car. They would have to because the average American motorist expects as much from GM. Fiat failed in the US because of the indifference of the Manufacturer and Ferrari does the same, yet the small faction of buyers put up with it as that is the price of admission. The Corvette is made better and more durable than any Ferrari ever made and you can own one and drive it forever without having to refinance it every 30,000 miles for service charges. You see a Vette on every street corner for a reason. Ask an owner and you will understand more. Would I buy a Ferrari made by GM? You're damn right I would and it would be better and be backed better if a problem should arise. $200.00 for a cheap glove box hinge, give me a break. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 1771 Registered: 12-2000 |
Coachi, I would be very interested and I think you are very qualified to talk about the 3 generations of Ferrari V12's you have. Maybe start another thread on it and we can get others with 250/275's to talk and then the late models 12's. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
New member Username: Coachi Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ferraris these days are far more expensive than they were when they were very limited productions. What a bargain a 512 BBi or a Testarossa, or even more so a 308. For less than 30 grand you can drive a beautiful car that turns heads after 28 years...and you can pamper it and love it and be proud that you own a unique automobile. The new Ferraris to me are more or less glorified Fiat, sorry to say, no disrespect intended. Yes, I wish I had a 288 or an F40, but for that money I can have several Boxers and keep the change. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 293 Registered: 3-2002 |
Magoo, I have to agree with you again... Lexus builds a fantastic automobile, excellent quality, superb fit and finish. On paper they are the perfect car... I will never own one. I do not want a perfect car, I want a hand made, unique car. I do not want it so perfect that it is boring and without character, like a Lexus. I like the personality of my Ferrari's, if they get too refined, they become boring. Porsche has gone too far with the 911, great car, but it has lost its personality. I love the handmade look of a 308, the picture of Doc's 308 with the new interiior reminds you that it was not designed by a committee or reveiwed by a focus group, it was sculptered. The 360 is a fantastic car, but it is getting very close to perfect, maybe too perfect. Just my opinion, I hope Ferrari stays Ferrari, with all of its quirks....... Chris | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2001 |
I am proud to say that one of my buddies here in the US provide Ferrari's F1 team with some very important components for their F1 drivetrain. I know of at least one other US company that does that too. USCANDOGOODTOO !!! | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 136 Registered: 5-2002 |
I lived with no 12 cyliner. I lived with Fiat buying it in 72. I wont live with an American mass producer doing it.If it happens only existing cars will have any value,Then pre 72 cars and then only pre 72 -12 cylinder cars for the true purist. Talking myself into another car fast. JMO | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2899 Registered: 2-2001 |
Art, I agree with you except I think the car would not be as special and interesting. Many things would be better I'm sure but the whole meaning of what makes it a Ferrari will change. Which is more important to the true Ferrari enthusiast? I for one would not have the interest in the car I now have. JMO | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 481 Registered: 6-2001 |
THE ONE GOOD THING THAT WOULD COME OUT OF ANY PURCHASE WOULD BE MORE MODERN TOOLING. WHEN FORD BOUGHT JAG, THEY UPDATED THE MACHINE TOOLS, AND THE QUALITY SHOT UP. I DON'T KNOW HOW MODERN FERRARI'S TOOLING IS, BUT AN INFUSION OF CASH AND NEW MACHINERY WOULD RAISE THE QUALITY OF THE CARS. IF THEY LEFT IT AT THAT, IT WOULD BE A GREAT DEAL, IF THEY DECIDED THEY KNEW HOW TO DESIGN THE CARS, WE'D ALL LOSE. ART | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 292 Registered: 3-2002 |
Magoo, what floor mats? whose wife? Luckliy, I forget things quickly and know a good person when I meet them, truce? absolutley... friends in the future, I hope so.... Chris | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Junior Member Username: Modman Post Number: 235 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well, Ferrari did use some American parts for at least one of their cars- Delco Remy... | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 60 Registered: 3-2002 |
I would be happy if GM bought them. As long.. as they don't ruin anything about my favorite cars. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 173 Registered: 2-2001 |
Keep in mind there was (is?) a school of thought that maintained the last "real Ferrari" was pre-Fiat. Would suspect that any future suitor would realize the value inherent in the brand and wouldn't tamper. And if that suitor turns out to be GM, would have faith in Bob Lutz (if he sticks around a while) to go to bat for a hands-off approach. Seems the one advantage to a healthy parent company in this scenario would be an extra dose of R&D dollars, IMO. That said, I agree with those who think that, with astute management, Ferrari could go it alone. It's a unique brand that's probably rarely cross-shopped. A few successful companies have grown and prospered with less. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2896 Registered: 2-2001 |
Peter, I think you are correct because they would be the last of the real thing. | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 210 Registered: 4-2001 |
Doody, i just believe that the value of all "real"-Ferrari, i.e. nonGM-Ferrari would probably go up. Ciao Peter | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 172 Registered: 2-2001 |
Nice. Would seem a bit of a shame for one to go meet their maker (God, Buddah, Allah, L. Ron) leaving behind an unresolved grudge. Met Chris in Century City and he was a thoroughly likable guy. Probably still is. Glad to see he's off the hook. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2893 Registered: 2-2001 |
Chris, I think that Ferrari can and for the sake of all of us Ferrari owners they better. Incidentally thanks for the response to my post. I have cooled off on the floormat issue at this point. Just one thing that puzzles me. You are obviously a successfull business man and a intelligent guy and not someone who would purposely try to create a problem by saying what you did. Anyway I consider it a oversight on your part at this point and I now accept your apology. Over and done with. I probably have a few years on you but one thing I have learned is that you don't bring up a guys wife in a heated discussion. TRUCE???? | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2891 Registered: 2-2001 |
The bad part about that break down is that Fiat has the controlling interest. As shakey as they are anything could happen. God Forbid..... | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 132 Registered: 5-2002 |
The last report shows Ferrari (son)10%, Pinnafarina %10, Fiat %80 in ownership of Ferrari. This was a while ago but it could'nt of changed all that much.But maybe it did. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 418 Registered: 3-2002 |
One thing to remember about Ferrari is that its target buyers (new models) are less affected by economic ups and downs. It's the secondary buyers (like me) who are more likely to feel the hit. Ferrari make a profit while turning out a limited number of cars, and there will always be enough buyers out there. The waiting lists may shorten, but that's about all. If they need to save money, they can always trim back on their racing expenses. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 290 Registered: 3-2002 |
Magoo, I agree, but can Ferrari stand alone and survive? I do not know.... | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2890 Registered: 2-2001 |
I feel as Rob does that Ferrari should remain independent and private. Imagine trying to promote the legacy and Enzos life with another auto manufacture behind it such as Ford or G.M. All of the unique things Ferrari is would be gone. The name might still be there but the image and mystic would be gone. It would make the car a car such as a Vette, and you would more than likely in time see one on every street corner. I feel the quality would improve but then what would happen to its image? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 1759 Registered: 12-2000 |
If I had my choice, this would be my work. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 169 Registered: 1-2002 |
Bottom line is Fiat is in trouble and Ferrari is not. But since Ferrari is one of Fiat's best assets, it is clear that Ferrari is on the block and will be either a publicly traded, stand alone company or a subsidiary for someone other than Fiat. Either way, things would change and I would wager the first thing would be the 100's of millions plowed into F1 every year. The 2nd thing would be a production increase for Ferrari as well as Masers. Probably all current Ferrari owners would bemoan the changes, but I'm not so sure about future buyers. If Ferrari were to double production, lower the price some and improve quality (especially initial quality) then the cars might be hotter than ever. But the company would not be the same IMO. Dave | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 130 Registered: 5-2002 |
And yes Tim now I am going to WORK !!!! | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 129 Registered: 5-2002 |
Harlan, Last I heard 40% went back into F-1. I might be able to get the number for this season? If I do I'll post it. | ||
| Harlan Mott (Hmott3)
Junior Member Username: Hmott3 Post Number: 144 Registered: 12-2001 |
Isn't a great deal of F1 money coming directly out of Ferrari's bottom line as well? I can image how shareholders would feel about billions of potential profit dollars going into F1. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 865 Registered: 9-2001 |
Rob I think they are talking about only a small %. And also not a US listing which means Italian laws and accounting can apply - we all know about that  | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1138 Registered: 6-2001 |
Every 5 minutes there are 3 new posts on this thread. Shouldnt you guys be working? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 1758 Registered: 12-2000 |
What scares me is Ferrari going public. Priorities change when you're a public company. I think a company like Ferrari is better being somewhat independent and private. Thousands of little share holders will pressure the board for the bottom line and not quality cars like Ferrari is known for. 2005: Ferrari announces the new Ferrari 914. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 980 Registered: 9-2001 |
GM has done a good job with its Holden brand in Australia as well. And, while you may not like some of GM designs, I know I don't, it is giving us Americans what we ask for, SUVs and trucks. The biggest fraud in history was done to us in the 1970s after the gas crutch. The U.S. auto makers told us we needed SUVs instead of station wagons for our growing families. What they didn't say was that SUVs were cheaper to build, were unsafe and didn't have to meet the dreaded CAFE standards as they are trucks and not cars. We bought on hook, line and sinker and now are getting what we then asked for and now deserve; ugly, gas guzzling, unsafe, poor handling SUVs and trucks. Just like what we asked for and got from FNA/Ferrari in the 1970s, V8s rebadged from Dinos to Ferraris. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 289 Registered: 3-2002 |
Bill, thank you. With that thought in mind, it is conceivable that with the consolidation in the automotive industry that Frerrari could have new ownership. Time will tell, GM has done such a poor job in europe, I can not imagine what the benefit to Fiat is going to be other than a quick influx of cash. GM has lost more market share percentage than any other car company in the world, so maybe GM is trying to buy market share. GM is certainly not known for there leading edge engineering or great styling (Ponitac Aztec or those god awful P/U things they are selling), however they are doing a good job with Corvette and Cadillac is starting to set some styling trends that are unique. Audi has done a good job with Lambo, so there is hope. Chris | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 126 Registered: 5-2002 |
Years ago Ferrari threatened to sell to Ford and the Italian govt. Stepped up to the plate and stopped it. Ferrari will go under befor a US automaker owns it. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 299 Registered: 2-2002 |
You're right Chris. We've been through that many times before on this forum. I think this thread is more about 'if' than 'will'. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 296 Registered: 2-2002 |
Good point Nick. Both Jaguar and Aston Martin would be dead today if it weren't for Ford. They certainly haven't done everything right, but people tend to forget the vehicles they turned out before Ford. GM/Lotus would be another good example. GM pretty much left Lotus alone, didn't they? I think that was an anomaly, though. In this brand conscious world executives follow the Disney formula and wring every cent out of the brand image like Ford is doing with the X-Type and the new Land Rover products they are discussing and like Porsche is doing with the Cayenne. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 288 Registered: 3-2002 |
Gentlemen, Fiat Auto does not own Ferrari. While General Motors owns a 20% stake in Fiat Auto, it has no interest in Fiat Holding, the company that does own Ferrari (Maserati). The initial public offering is a defense mechanism against any takeover from General Motors (or anybody else). I believe it is more likely that Ferrari and Maserati will become more independent from Fiat Holding if there stock offerings go well and Maserati sales bring volume sales. As it currently stands, even if GM purchased controlling interest in Fiat Auto, they would not have any ownership in Ferrari or Maserati. If Fiat Holding did sell it's interest in Ferrari, pray to god they sell to Ford and not GM, Ford is the only big automotive company that has demonstrated they can improve the companies they purchase (Jaguar, Volvo, Land Rover, Aston Martin). Chris | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1134 Registered: 6-2001 |
I think Lambo/audi-vw is a good example. | ||
| nick l (Nsxnick)
New member Username: Nsxnick Post Number: 36 Registered: 7-2001 |
jag/ford is not a good analogy for ferrari/gm. aston martin/ford would be a better one. i've maybe seen 5 aston martins on the road in the past 5 years. big parent company does not equal mass production. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 295 Registered: 2-2002 |
GM would have to be insane to buy FIAT, which means it may happen. Why let a broken down, inept company weigh you down while you are fighting to resurrect yourself? Ferrari probably wouldn't be part of the deal, but if it were, the Americans could provide some uniformity in parts sourcing and distribution as well as much needed quality improvements. What has Ford done for Jaguar? Quality is WAY better today than it was pre-Ford. The XK8 may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it sure beats the Camaro-clone XJ-S it replaced. Yes, the X Type is silly, isn't it? The Germans aren't what they used to be, either. Mercedes is on the downswing, Porsche is building SUVs, and the BMW 7 Series is the best Buick I've ever seen. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 979 Registered: 9-2001 |
It is my understanding that Fiat is in dire straits financially and GM may exercise its option to buy the remaining 80% it doesn't already own. And, while I agree that American auto makers are not known for quality as compared to German and Japanese cars, they do compare well up against Italian cars including Fiat/Ferrari. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 430 Registered: 2-2001 |
I dont think US auto manufacturers are known for their high-quality products. I dont think we'd see better cars. I for one would be greatly disappointed ..... Ernesto | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 464 Registered: 10-2001 |
If a US producer bought Ferrari you'd see better cars. They'd have fewer defects and design flaws because there would be more money for testing. New Ferrari models are always a 'beta version' as they let their customers discover the bugs. I would hope Ferrari would continue to be innovative and exclusive. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2293 Registered: 5-2001 |
I guess right now Ferrari is pretty stable. They made a huge $40 Mil profit last year (just imagine with Billions gros). They are not in any trouble at this point. Eventually I wills ee them running into trouble again, unless backed by a bigger Auto Maker, that would like to use the image. Lamborghini did not hurt because of the Chrysler take over. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 255 Registered: 11-2001 |
peter - why would the future value of 308s and 328s change substantially if ferrari were to be sold to some big soulless american conglomerate? i don't grok. doody. | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 209 Registered: 4-2001 |
I belive that the mass produced Ferrari already exist in the group. It's called Maserati. I do not think that Ferrari will increase the production number since that would dilute the brand. Ferrari(& Maserati) group will probably make money from Maserati, which is a damn good car, and t-shirts and similar stuff. If Ferraris will be mass produced the value of T-shirts, shoes and Maseratis will decrease and profit go down. I believe thats theire strategi and I also believe it will be successful. If GM buys Ferrari, start buying 308 and 328's. They will be very valuable in the future. Ciao Peter | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 73 Registered: 4-2002 |
No | ||
| RM Valher (Rmv)
Junior Member Username: Rmv Post Number: 54 Registered: 4-2002 |
If Ferrari was to be taken over by a US automotive giant, I would sincerly hope that they would not 'mess' with the formula at all. I share your concern that the 'mass producing' of Ferraris would affect their mystique. Ifit ain't broke, don't fix it. As for Ford and Jaguar, I think that Ford has been the best thing to happen to Jaguar in a very long time. Jaguar was in an absolute mess during the 70s and 80s. I personally believe the rot set in with the departure of Sir William Lyons. Ford has given Jaguar a reasonable amount of autonomy although I'm not to sure if having the X-Type based on a Mondeo chassis is the greatest idea. As for the style, I think the X-Type, S-Type, XK8's etc do not look like Fords at all; they are very, very 'Jaguarish', the S-Type especially. Moreover, the XK8's are quite reminiscent of the E-Type. Remember what Jaguar produced as its top of the range sports car during those 'dark' years: the XJS. I know a number of diehard Jaguar owners and fans who were mortified when it was announced Ford was taking over their beloved marque. Those same people today love the new Jags more than ever. This is only my personal opinion of course! | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 2889 Registered: 2-2001 |
If a U.S. auto manufacture took over Ferrari I think the uniqueness of Ferrari would be lost. The life story of Enzo would have no meaning anymore. Are we there in these uncertain times? Could be, Look at what Ford has done to the design of the Jaguar. This is scary when you think about it. Can you imagine mass producing the Ferrari and seeing as many Ferraris on the street as Corvettes. Something to think about. Any comments?????? |