| Author | Message | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
New member Username: Rampante Post Number: 1 Registered: 4-2002 |
other than a change in engine size(4.2 liter?), what other changes are upcoming to the modena? i.e. style or suspension/wheel changes? | ||
| Erick Gravel (Erickg)
New member Username: Erickg Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2002 |
Steven: 360 modena can be had right now for about 150k pre owned.. seen many going for that price, us spec as well. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 240 Registered: 6-2001 |
I happen to love the 550, but I cannot fit in it comfortably. I am 6'5" and 250 lbs., and have test driven the 550, 456 and the 360, as well as almost every model made during the last 20 years. Only a few models accomodate my frame with a reasonable level of comfort. The 550 and 456 were VERY uncomfortable, being made for mid-size European people. The seat rails cannot be moved back on a 550, despite what I was led to believe. Surprisingly, my Dino, small as it is, has plenty of room. The 360 also has plenty of room. While the 550 may ultimately be the more coveted car, and while it is well priced in today's market, I wanted a ragtop, not a coupe, so my choices are very limited. I have not driven a 550 Barchetta, but I assume it is tight also, and it is almost impossible to buy anyway. With a new 360 not due until 2005, and then probably just as a modification of the current 360 (4.2 litre engine maybe??), the U.S. version 360 spiders will remain rare and keep their value IMHO. The problem with the Euros (and I have thoroughly researched this), is that you cannot sell them easily if you want to. The market is limited, and the prices they command are far below the US version (that's how your friend got one for $190k). So in terms of depreciation, both the US and Euro should sustain similar depreciations in value in terms of a % of buying price. My US 360 will probably be worth 150k in 4 years (according to the leasing companies I spoke with), for a net depreciation rate of 40%, while the Euro will depreciate by at least the same %, and possible a higher percentage due to a low demand on the buyer end. Net result is we both lost $100,000 (and the Euro may lose up to $120,000-just visit the Auto Toy Store in Ft. Lauderdale and see how many Euros are sitting around waiting to be sold). The only difference is the starting point; I pay more up front, but get more back on resale. With a wait list of 5 years for a Spider, and only 1,000 uniots a year coming to the US, demand should remain strong. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Junior Member Username: Dave Post Number: 71 Registered: 4-2001 |
Well I may be bassakwards, but I will never buy a new car again... I let someone else make the major purchase, and deprecate the car over a couple of years. To me buying new just makes no sense at all, especially if your paying more than msrp. That just screams Screw Me! I have no will power, I can't wait... By the way, 2 of the 4 360's I have personal knowledge of have problems. The F1 spider has shifting problems and is in the shop, and a 6 speed coupe has clutch problems and is in the shop... You might want to do a little more research before you let emotions steer you into an overpriced ride with problems. | ||
| Robert Jude Klein (Rjklein4470)
New member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 14 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have a freind that just picked up a Euro spider converted, loaded, for $190k, and at that price I do not think he is upside down in the car. The issue with MSRP, and Market, is feeling like you are upside down in the car. This is a feeling that I would rather not have. For me it would take away the fun of having the car regardless of what make. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 244 Registered: 2-2001 |
The 360 engine does not have to be removed for service.. all the belts and accessories can be reached via a compartment that is removed behind the seats. Anyway, 550 is a great car and beautiful car. And I agree that it will hold its value better and be more of a collectable in the future. But more fun than a 360 it is not. Ernesto | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 682 Registered: 9-2001 |
I agree with that sentiment . The 550 is the best buy in the exotic car market IMHO. And I think it will turn out to be worth more in the future than the 360. If you will recall, when the 308 first came out they were selling for much more than a used 365GTB/4 . But since the Daytona was a front engined V12 and much rarer than the 308 they have appreciated much more from their $17,500.00 MSRP. The 550 is much rarer than the 360 and is a front engined V12. So if the past is an indicator of the future, and it almost always is, then a used 550 is where to put your money for fun and potential appreciation. And the sound of that V12 is music to thine ears. Plus, I understand from the dealer in Atlanta that the 550 is less expensive the service than the 360 because the engine doesn't require removal. A big advantage to someone who is going to put some miles on the car. While the 288GTO is still my favorite Ferrari, the 550 will be my next Ferrari. | ||
| christopher byrne (Challenge360)
New member Username: Challenge360 Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2002 |
For less money you can buy yourself a very nice 550 Maranello, which I feel is superior to the 360. For the money it is the best deal that is out there currently on the Ferrari market. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 339 Registered: 5-2001 |
Solly, I shipped my A.M.Vantage on the QE2 in'85 and drove it throughout UK,FR,And Germany.Great fun especially with 007 NY plates.At that time Cunard charged $2500 r/trip.It must be much more now. The only pain was Customs in NY on return.Had to wait 4 hrs while they took the car apart looking for drugs.Happily they put all the panels and parts back together. | ||
| Frederick Klorczyk (Fjk)
New member Username: Fjk Post Number: 20 Registered: 12-2001 |
The price on dealer owned used 360's sort of depends on whether the dealer bought the car pre- or post-9/11. That was a definite line of demarcation according to a secondary market friend of mine. He has sold some of his pre-9/11 cars (360 coupes) at a loss but has made decent change on the used spiders. The guys who were "in-line" and sold them quickly are the ones who made the big money of course. I was due for spring 2003 delivery - that has slipped to late 2003 due to the 20% decrease in spider production. I have been "on the list" for over two years now. Also, my dealer requires a contract on right of first refusal to purchase the spider back should I decide to sell within the first two years. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 200 Registered: 6-2001 |
Oh do I wish I lived in Europe. No limit autobahn, beautiful fraulein, springtime in Tuscany, cheap Ferraris, great food, Maranello just a day's drive from most places. Too bad I got the kids, the mortgages, the business/family obligations, blah, blah, blah. Anyone ship their Ferraris to Europe for vacation? Cost? Is it safe? Worth doing, or a hassle? If I can't live there I can certainly visit for a while. SEE MY POST ON THE SPRING RALLY IN NY!! | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 80 Registered: 12-2001 |
Gustaf: not to mention that fabulous hot dog stand in the middle of Stockholm, as well as an endless supply of blondes, yes? | ||
| Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
New member Username: Gustaf Post Number: 18 Registered: 9-2001 |
I'm sorry to do this to you guys but you really should move to Europe and get your 360s for around 110-100k and your F355s for 90-65k(not in Britain). Plus its nice to be able to drive to Maranello without the need to ship your car. What is the average cost for changing timing belts for a F355 in the states? Here its around 2-2.5k. | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 468 Registered: 4-2001 |
Well said Solly. You live only once!! The one thing I would do is just for peace of mind investigate quickly the private side of the market. Is it possible the same car is available privately at 40 - 50K less? If you have looked at those already and see no advantage plus you plan to keep the car as long as you say and can structure a good leaseback writeoff, then ask Bud for the keys.......... | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Junior Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 104 Registered: 7-2001 |
Wmhart, that was a good post. And Solly, I definatly did not mean to offend you in any way by calling you a poseur. The fact that we all read this message board on a daily(sometimes hourly for me) basis makes us the furthest thing from poseurs. I guess the point I was trying to get across was that poseurs have been notorious in the past fews years for buying 996 turbos and 360s at big premiums, only to park them in front of Starbucks and bench race with other poseurs in regards to whose expensive new toy is faster. Good luck in your purchase James | ||
| michael (Scmguru)
New member Username: Scmguru Post Number: 43 Registered: 3-2001 |
Congratulations on your decision Solly. Let us know whhen your new baby arrives. Life is short, enjoy it. mc | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 197 Registered: 6-2001 |
Isn't every Ferrari purchase an emotional decision? Certainly few people buy them for grocery runs or family trips to Wally World. Is a 20 year old 308 "worth" 30-40k as transportation? I think a new Subaru at 18k fits that bill better. So the price of entry to the Ferrari mystique is really supply/demand driven, and always will be. I want it now, so I have to live with this basic capitalist fact, or I have to take some risk, in the form of an unwarranteed, used, unknown-history Euro model, with no dealer backing it. I have given this much thought, and would rather not risk the hassle and down-time of shipping a Euro back to the country of origin for warranty repairs, and lose 3 months of a short driving season at the same time. It might be different if I lived in Florida or California where the season is year-round, but in NY I put the good cars away from November thru April. I also don't want to wait 4 years, and don't want to drive a coupe. Best thing would be a Euro spider with a US warranty, even thru an independent, but such a thing does not appear to exist. I don't think I am a poseur, but I do spend money for luxury items, and items of convenience. I always fly first class, and pay a $1500 premium for the pleasure of doing so every time I go to Florida. Is this wrong too? Where do you draw the line between items you desire that make life easier, and outright foolishness? I have friends on this very chatroom who fly chartered jets whenever they travel, at a cost of $11,000 one way to Florida, and do it often. Is this an extravagance that is ok? Bottom line is each person must decide for him/herself where their break-point is between foolishness and desire. It is a very personal decision, and as long as we go into these things with our eyes open we have only ourselves to blame if it doesn't turn out well. Now that I have pretty much decided to buy the spider, it's time to set up our spring NY rally. I'll start a new thread on this subject. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Junior Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 116 Registered: 12-2001 |
Well said William | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 79 Registered: 12-2001 |
SteveF: the reason why i said coupe prices are not indicative of the spider is simply one of supply and demand. If spiders were as easy to get as coupes, you're right, the price would come down. But, and i may be wrong here, if you walked into a dealer today and asked to be put on a "list" for a spider, i would think you are looking at 2 years minimum, assuming they even bother to take your name. I'm not condoning the practice, but i also disagree with James Dixon's statement that only yuppie poseurs pay over list. Assuming solly has the bucks, and wants the open car, why is he a better person for buying a coupe and waiting? Strikes me that alot of the views here are well-meaning, but expose more about the poster's own views of money than anything else. Who knows what will happen to this market? I hope Frank Parker is right, and the prices do drop. But i don't think that will put a spider into solly's hot little hands very soon. Do you? | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 337 Registered: 5-2001 |
Solly, I know the feeling of wanting something (always a car) so much that one's hair hurts.It certainly is easy for all of us to give you advice.It seems to me you have put yourself in a no -win situation.Reading your posts it seems to me if you go for the 250k you will always be looking back at the 70k you could have saved and will feel "exploited" As I have shared I would not go the euro route as I did. So, when in such a conundrum my advice would be to do nothing now. Remember just a few months ago US spider prices were over 300k.Since 3 out of 4 360's coming in are spiders prices will come down.Can you wait? If not go for it! Give my regards to Bud Root-he's a straight shooter. | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Junior Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 102 Registered: 7-2001 |
Solly, There is a lot of good advice on here for you to contemplate. For me, the deciding factor is the Time Value of Money concept. By going on the waiting list, you can invest that 70 grand in a medium to high risk stock and use the profits to pay off the car. It doesnt sound like the value of your Dino will go down much in the next year, so that shouldnt be a problem. Only yuppie poseurs pay over MSRP. Real car enthusiasts buy cars based on emotion, but also know when to let a deal pass. That is what separates us from the rest. We have all been in situations where we overpaid a little for a car, but that usually happens with used cars as two used cars are never identical. Dont support this shameless practice of charging premiums for brand new vehicles. It just encourages the greedy, materialistic car brokers to continue, and prevents the financially poor car enthusiast from realizing their dreams. James | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
New member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 2 Registered: 2-2002 |
I agree with William and Frank. The bottom won't fall out of the market, but we will see an adjustment to levels more like those seen in Europe. Spiders will always cost more, but they will come into line also. Those who pay tens of thousands for the privilege of owning the latest and greatest do so knowing that they may never see that money again, and who's to say they are wrong? It's their money after all, and if you have to spend it, why not spend it on a 360 Spider? | ||
| SteveF (Stevef)
New member Username: Stevef Post Number: 32 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hmmmm...let's see the exchange rate is something like 1.4225 so that translates to 149k and 82.5k. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 640 Registered: 9-2001 |
I have a copy of the Jan 2002 issue of the UK magazine AutoItalia in my hand and it has a 2001 360F1 with 3000 miles for sale at 104,950 pounds and a 1997 355 spider for 57,995 pounds. I think that those are the prices we will see in the upcoming year for such cars. | ||
| SteveF (Stevef)
New member Username: Stevef Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2001 |
why shouldn't coupe prices be indicative of spider prices ? the coupe has had the benefit of a couple more years of production to satisfy more of the demand. It seems like a useful barometer of what may happen to spider prices when it reaches the point in the cycle the coupe is at. I also don't think the floor is going to fall out on the 360 barring some unforseen event but it should depreciate like the other mainline v8 cars. And as pointed out before, the important data is not the asking price but the price it actually sells at. I've always been suprised at how long some dealers will hold onto a car trying to find the right buyer (sucker?). | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 77 Registered: 12-2001 |
I am not sure Modena coupe prices are indicative of spider prices. Even though the coupe version is always supposed to be more rigid (i know, i know, the aluminum thing is different here), most U.S. buyers of the 8 cyl. car have bought open cars.I'm sure somebody could verify this based on actual production numbers and the styles delivered here. As to what's happening in the market in the U.S., i'm sure the economy, 9/11, etc. have had something to do with it, but to answer Solly's question that started this thread, i don't think it is realistic to assume that the bottom is going to drop out of the market for 360's in the near future, to the point where Modena coupes or 360 spiders will be chump change. Of course, if the whole economy craters (i do not want to speculate here), everything, including your money, is worth less. | ||
| Erick Gravel (Erickg)
New member Username: Erickg Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2002 |
Tim: I've seen a few around that price range.. lowest was 139k im just hoping that i see a few more in that price range in a year or so. Erick G | ||
| SteveF (Stevef)
New member Username: Stevef Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2001 |
I think the issue is not about free markets but the efficiency of the market. The fact that virtually identical products vary widely in price from region to region suggests that the market is not operating efficiently...and FNA helps maintain that state. what's the current production numbers for 360s ? It must be getting up there. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 638 Registered: 9-2001 |
FNA has always had a hand in keeping the prices for Ferrais high in the USA. In europe, Ferraris tend to depreciate rather rapidly like most other Italian cars. I remember in the 1970s 365GTS/4 Daytona Spiders sit at the daelership here in Atlanta with prices under $20k and they couldn't give them away. I wish I would have had the money to buy one then. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 428 Registered: 6-2001 |
140k is low, maybe in 3 or 4 years. There are 99 F355s still selling in the 140k+ range (mostly spiders) You will probably have to wait longer to find one for 140k than u would if u got on a list and payed 145k for it. At most dealerships the wait is ~2 years. | ||
| Erick Gravel (Erickg)
New member Username: Erickg Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2002 |
do you think it will be common to find 360 coupe's for 140k or less in a year or so? that is right around my price range.. (give or take a little) I dont have the patience to wait on a list. hopefully this next year will be good to me, just found out my house will be completed way ahead of scheduled time. thanks Erick G | ||
| Joren Remans (J_remans)
New member Username: J_remans Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2002 |
Gentlemen Good Evening!!! Yes, it's evening already here in Belgium. First of all I wanna say how great I think it is to follow all those interesting Ferrari facts from 5000 miles away. I don't know of any other car make that shares so much of worldwide passion. That's also why I wanna say mille grazie to all of you. Thanks to this kind of enthusiasm the passion will go on forever!!! I am in the 'Ferrari mondo' for several years now but never I really understood Ferrari prices in the States. Same scenario with the Spider right now. Last year I was used to work for a well-known Lexus dealership in the Midwest, USA. We sold many SC430's for prices far above the MSRP. There is nothing wrong with that. It's just the law of demand and supply. Shortage always bumps up the prices, the only question we have to ask ourselves if this is acceptable. It certainly is so for the salespeoples, of course, but seemingly also for the customer because the cars get sold!!! Opinions on this will always been divided, but we all live in a free market system and yes also Ferraris are big money making business. You want it, you buy it, easy as is. Is it all rational business from a customer's point of view, no certainly not, but some people are willing to lay down that 'little' extra to get that 'little' extra. That's it. Should I ever buy a car or even a Ferrari for investment purposes??? No, not today and not tomorrow. The past is over and so are the extravaganza prices. But still if I read $250,000 for a spider, it's far too much!! My suggestion on this is to buy right now an imported Euro-model for 70 grand less or to put yourself on the list and wait 1 year or whatsoever for the one with the US-specs. What makes the US-one $70,000 more expensive??? I don't get it, it's simply a too big difference and 250,000 is far overpriced. Don't forget that for that kind of money you buy a brand new 550 in Europe and still get greens left!! And of course the value for the Dino will be the same next year so that doesn't make a difference anyway. Anyway, and yes also I have to agree that once you have the Ferrari fever it can reach skyhigh.... Sometimes you just can't explain everything, that's probably why it's a Ferrari. Btw, why don I read so little about the 456??? and is there anyone familiar with the Midwestern Auto Group in Dublin, Ohio?? Great dealership though!! We keep in touch, ciao, Joren REMANS | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
New member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2001 |
Arnaldo, The only reason you see 360's around is because they are wonderfully easy to live with and drive everyday. The fact remains, as my F dealer confirmed this morning to me, they are trickling in and now, with the grey market in limbo again, demand will catch up with supply. Consider this: FoOC (one of only three socal dealers) did not recieve a SINGLE 360 coupe so far this year. They get 3-5 spiders a month and that's it. I believe that for every 360 you see on the road, there are dozens of TR's and 348's parked in garages. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 523 Registered: 8-2001 |
I certainly drive my 360 as often as I can. It's a very usable car (in the utility sense as well as performance) so I would think that owners are using them more especially in sunny SoCal. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Junior Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 245 Registered: 2-2001 |
There is something funny about paying over MSRP for any car! I don't know how many 360s have been produced so far, but it seems that they are becoming as common as Porsches, at least here in Southern California. Over the past few weekends I have seen 360s of every kind and color, everywhere. Last sunday I saw two on a single hour. I rarely see 355s, much less 348s, and very rarely TRs, 550s, or 456s. 308/328s are also a common sight. Anyway, my point is, it seems that 360s are flooding the market (or their owners love/drive them more) and that will definitely have a negative impact on their future prices (value retention potential) specially when a succesor comes online. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1522 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have seen 2000 Coupes for as little as $ 140,000. That is more a reasonable number if you ask me. Spiders are $ 230K and up sometimes. Totally nutz if you ask me. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
New member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2002 |
I'm new to this forum. I'm a long-time Ferrari nut who has been involved on the peripharies of the auto and racing scene for decades. I was Director of Marketing for CART in it's early days and some of you may remember my brother's from their days writing for Autoweek. James D. Sawyer was Managing Editor and Christopher A. Sawyer was Senior Editor. Am I imagining things, or are pricing levels on the 360 Modena about to crash? Prices listed on the Internet are in the $170-$190K range for coupes, but I don't think they are selling very quickly at that price. I check dealer inventories and prices regularly, and it seems that the cars aren't moving. In some cases the same cars appear month after month. If the market is truly able to demand $180K for a used car that had a list price of $144k they should be moving faster. Case in point: Michael Sheehan has what appears to be a very nice coupe on his site. It's a 2000 360 Modena, US model, 1450 miles, shields, seats, challenge grille, CD changer, etc. Originally it was listed at $186,500, then it went to $179.450, now it's listed at $166,500. I see thge same behavior on other sites. It appears that the current pricing is being held up by artificial means. Part is probably due to the popularity of the Spider, but if the coupe falls the Spider will eventually follow. Dealers seem to be willing to take their time to sell cars at the higher price because it contributes to the 'fever' and to the aura that surrounds all of their models. This would explain why FNA is adamant to stop the influx of European cars into our market. They don't want to spoil a good thing. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 75 Registered: 7-2001 |
Just buy it or let it go. Life goes on..Ferrari's still get built and you arent getting any younger. Its just a car and its not worth losing any sleep over at all. Buy it now or let it go. Ultimately it matters not what any of us think here. Do it or keep the Dino and just go have fun driving. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1520 Registered: 5-2001 |
...and Solly can stand tall LOL  | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1519 Registered: 5-2001 |
Solly, to me there are two objectives why not to buy a. over MSRP and b. not to pay over especially at a offic. Ferrari dealer a. paying over MSRP means you will be the a*s loosing the money down the road just because you could not wait! b. paying a premium to a Ferrari dealer means that you condone the practice of FNA and their dealers to circumvent their own pricing and then turn around and infringe into Free Trade policies. This is as rediculous as condeming Irak for their politics and civil rights violations and then buying their oil because it is 5c cheaper. There is times when you have to stand tall and say: Screw that! | ||
| Patrick S. Perry (Psp1)
Junior Member Username: Psp1 Post Number: 57 Registered: 3-2001 |
With the $80,000 difference in price between Euro and US models, it would almost pay to buy spare parts that are likely to be needed and everything required for a couple of major services upfront. Or I guess you could always ship it back to Europe for major servicing | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 195 Registered: 6-2001 |
I'm still going nuts that the Euro spiders can be had for $170,000 with full EPA/DOT papers, shipping, conversion, etc. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 72 Registered: 12-2001 |
Bret: i was actually thinking of an even less subtle approach than:"psssst, hey buddy, wanna sell me a ________?" One guy i met said his kid brother wanted a spider and when told he would have to wait three years or whatever, offered to buy a barchetta and something else, so long as skip could get his spider sooner. i think the dealer bit. So my suggestion to Solly was talk with the dealer who is offering him the spider now, and say, if i buy it, when will you deliver another one, at MSRP, possibly with the understanding that Solly would "trade" the old one in, or let the dealer sell it, or gosh, if solly then decided he wanted the dealer to sell the other one, well, may be they could may a deal..., but let's get the car first! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1727 Registered: 2-2001 |
I'm pretty sure like wm said that they aren't supposed to buy cars for themselves, so if that's the case they would be looking to fill vacancies because they could then probably get that car back eventually when the customer gets a new car. Go to the dealership, pick out who looks the most sketchy or willing to bend some rules and talk to him about it, allude to the fact that the wait is long and that you have the money today, etc. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 71 Registered: 12-2001 |
I'm sure that a certain amount of finagling goes on with respect to these lists. It is my impression that if somebody at Ferrari in Italy wants to make sure that somebody gets a car, it happens, nothwithstanding allotments, prior commitments to existing customers, etc. The same is probably true, to a different degree, at the the dealer level(eg. the dealer really doesn't have much to say until it is informed that Ferrari is ready to build the car; at that point, alot could be changed; until that point, the color, transmission, etc., while ordered "on paper" don't mean that much). I assume that a dealer that wanted to get you a car could bump somebody else to do it, although that may mean fucking over another customer. Yeah, there may be some non regular customers who are also on these lists, and i suppose if somebody declined to build a car when their slot comes up, the dealer could easy sell the car to someone else; i doubt this happens too much, cause the customer just gave up a premium. i am sure this is something that is not openly discussed by the dealers 'cause it is tough enough to get any of the cars to begin with, and there will be no shortage of customers for them, even if somebody on a list flogs out. Talk to your dealer.I don't think they are supposed to order the car for their own account, and then flip it for a premium. i think the premium sales come from customers who at least nominally own the cars after delivery but just leave it with the dealer for resale or the dealer goes through the fiction of buying the car from the customer, yet manages to cut the customer in on the extra profit. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 194 Registered: 6-2001 |
How do you go about taking someone else's place on the list? Surely the dealer would give that place to a friend who can purchase it, resell it back to the dealer, who can then sell it again on the used market for a huge premium? Is there anywhere I can go to find out about taking someone else's place on the list? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 70 Registered: 12-2001 |
One other question i forgot to ask, at least rhetorically: how much do you really have in the Dino. If you bought it, for say 50k, and never had to sink substantial money into it, unloading for 80k now, after i don't know how many years of enjoyment(and mileage) already puts free money in your pocket when calculating the difference you'll have to pay to get the spider now. Although i have made out ok on some of these cars(and i switch them more often than most), sheer depreciation, alone, will bite you as much as premium paying; to wit, bought a used Maranello a few years ago, pd. in the neighborhood of 190, drove the car 10k miles in a year, and by the time i dumped it, the maranello market had depreciated significantly. with the "high" miles i put on the car, i "lost" money, but, was i a sucker? Maybe, but then, if i looked at it from that perspective, i wouldn't drive an exotic car to begin with. What's to prevent you from buying this one, in exchange for getting a real commitment for an MSRP one, from the same dealer. Surely, that would offset the pangs of fiscal guilt.... | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 193 Registered: 6-2001 |
Yes, I have driven both the coupe and the spider, and absolutely think they are the best Ferraris ever made, and I have driven every model from the 308 through the 355 as well as the Dino, Daytona and the 330GTC. The only thing that is similar in terms of exhiliration is the 550, but that is not nearly as much fun. Losing an additional 70k in depreciation (over the normal depreciation from MSRP) over 13 years doesn't really bother me. That is an annualized loss rate of about $5,000, certainly not a huge hit. Also, if I can structure a leaseback correctly, I can use pretax dolars to pay the lease fee. There are other ways to mitigate this overpayment, and I will check with my accountant and let all of you know if I come up with some novel approach that can work for you too. | ||
| Chris Tanner (Ctanner)
New member Username: Ctanner Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2001 |
The comments on cars depreciating have been covered very well below. However, I would like to add a comment concerning an ad of interest on FerrariAds.com as a chance to learn from history. A 1989 Testarossa. The ad says the owner paid $220K in 1989. Sticker for this cars was $158K in 1989. Car is probably worth $75K today. If looking at this ad makes you cringe, don't buy the car. If you think, "so what", then go for it. Last October I went to a party where one of the guests showed up in his new 360 spider (sexiest car ever made imho). He wasn't even on the waiting list for the car. The dealer (FLG) called him because the guy who was on the list was struggling coming up with the money and time ran out. My friend had cash ready and jumped to the front of the list. I have no idea if he paid msrp or not though. He didn't say what he paid and I thought it was rude to ask. I have a question for you. Obviously, you are a serious buyer and a current owner. Did the dealer let you test drive the car? | ||
| Bill Michaels (Billm)
New member Username: Billm Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2002 |
Right on, Solly! I couldn't agree with you more. Go for it, I did. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 192 Registered: 6-2001 |
Every one of you has some valid points, and I am going to give this a lot of thought this week, though I'm leaning toward doing the deal even knowing I am overpaying. How do you put a price on fun and enjoyment? If a few weeks a year of pure good times are worth $180k, why are they not worth $250k? I'm definitely not buying this as an investment. But being the pragmatic businessman that I am, I'll find a way to do a sale/leaseback and still get some positive tax treatment out of it. Unfortunately I'll have to sell the Dino. What really convinced me was taking my kids to dinner with my parents tonight at a typical Florida old age restaurant and realizing that I am not getting any younger, and how fast time has passed from when I was a little boy eating out with my parents and their parents, and that in 11 more years I will get a postcard from AARP and my life will be pretty much early-bird specials from then on so I better enjoy it now. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
New member Username: Hugh Post Number: 19 Registered: 1-2002 |
If I may chime in. I would never encourage anyone to pay over MSRP, and if I were a salesmen, would not be able to honestly sell a car at close to a 100K premium. It's one thing to splurge on a vacation, or meal, or maybe even a Ducati, but to pay THAT much over MSRP is not rational at all. Let's face it at the end of the day you have to forgive the fact that you paid WAY too much for a car, for no good reason other than the fact that you just had to have it now. Even if you have the money to burn, agreeing to be gouged just encourages the propogation of greedy, sleezy tactics on behalf of the dealers/brokers. If you want a 360 now, find a nice clean coupe, get on the waiting list, and enjoy the coupe, when the spyder comes in, trade-in/sell the coupe, and think of how relieved you'll feel not being suckered into giving a dealer more than they deserve! And, let's not forget, "having" to drive a 360 coupe, while waiting for your spyder to arrive, is a burdon I'm sure any of us would galdly bear. I know I would. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1710 Registered: 2-2001 |
They had two new 360 spiders (red one and a silver one) when I went to WWoC on Friday. Solly maybe you can find one that someone ordered and gave up, or better yet someone ordered and can transfer over to you. There are some good guys at WWoC that can be very helpful. On a sad note, I missed a set of used rims that I wanted to get, sons of bitches. I went there last sat and no Fcar guys were around (usually they are in the morning) I come back a week later and they're sold. Damn. I too am not big on paying over MSRP. There are a hell of a lot of 355 Spiders for sale, I would think a steal could be found with enough looking. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 68 Registered: 12-2001 |
Solly, if the question were about a good investment or value for the money, you should be looking at used Mercury Marquis. I would not go for a Euro largely because of the DOT/EPA issues and the risks incident to bringing one over now. I am less troubled by the warranty issues, since the savings will make up for alot of paid fixing. (I am not so sure about F1 transmissions, but don't mean to create a false suspicion about their reliability, either). Having said that, if you have the Xtra cash, and you like the car, knock yourself out, for the following reasons: some people (you may be one) like an open car, and buying a modena now, and just getting on a list for spider may not make you happy. Unless the dealer puts you into somebody else's slot, you will not see a spider at MSRP for a good while. While i appreciate the principled statements of those who would never pay over list, do what makes you happy. If it is a legit. U.S, car, being purchased directly from an authorized dealer, you could drive the car for a year or two, and probably still get rid of it for a decent price. In the meantime, unless your Dino has been rebuilt by master craftsmen, is it really worth a whole lot more than 80k? i know Dinos fetch big money these days, but there are alot of them around, at big prices. While it may be worth keeping the Dino if you collect, you may be like me: i can't afford to have alot of F cars (maybe i could, but they would be more mediocre ones), so i buy and drive one good one at a time, and enjoy the hell out of it. That it costs me money to do so is the price of admission. That i am not being fiscally prudent in doing so is not really on point, unless you are buying these things as an investment, which is, in this day and age, virtually impossible, unless you get an MSRP delivery, which sounds pretty unlikely. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
New member Username: Boozy Post Number: 47 Registered: 11-2001 |
I'm willing to take the minimal depreciation hit from owning a car purchased at or near sticker but paying over sticker is completely unnatural to me. I just couldn't do it. I think Acw's advice is perfect: get a used coupe and get on the list for a Spider. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2001 |
I agree that most (all?) Ferraris hold their value pretty well. Particularly when compared to other brands. Recouping a gouge on a regular production model, on the other hand, is unlikely. Unless, of course, the plan is to hang on to the car through a couple of generations of inflation. Further, based on current economic and social climate, the gouge may be going away shortly. | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
New member Username: Boozy Post Number: 44 Registered: 11-2001 |
Original window sticker on my 1994 348 Spider is $117,400 plus $3000 gas guzzlertax. Currently they sell for $80-90k in the condition mine's in. The car is 8 years old and still holds 77% of its value. I've never owned a car that holds such a high resale value. It's 2 models behind and still holding a good value. I think it's because it is a very attractive looking car. I think the 355 and 360 will hold onto their value for the same reason. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 609 Registered: 9-2001 |
Tyler, the many lawsuits filed against dealers and resellers after the Ferrari bubble burst in 1990 proves the ones who paid way over MSRP for an F40, TR, 328 and 348 regreted it ! That's right folks, people paid way over MSRP for a TR and 348 too in 1989, the cars that have now became the red headed step children of Ferrari ! That's how I truly believe the 360 will later be considered with its non-traditional front in. A friend of mine who has recently been to Italy to train on the new Maserati says the word is that the new V8 Ferrari will go back to the traditional egg crate front end. Complaints will cause that change just like they did in the side strates on the 348/TR series to the 355/550. That will place the 360 between the new car and the 355 just like the 348 was between the 328 and 355 ! What does that mean ? I don't know for sure, but it didn't bode well for 348 prices did it ? | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Junior Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 114 Registered: 12-2001 |
I don't think it's crazy to pay over MSRP. It's not great business decision, but this is a purchase of passion not business. Solly, you know what the cost is for having the car today, you just have to decide if it's worth it. It was mentioned earlier that the people who paid a million for an F40 all regret it. I don't think that is true. I know of one person who has payed what are deemed insane prices for the cars he wanted at the time(F40, Continental R, Azure, DB7 Vantage, 360 spider). He has never regretted the prices he paid to enjoy the cars when he wanted them. Anything for sale is only worth what someone will pay for it and if it worth the premium for you to enjoy it now then go for it and don't look back. Today is the only day you can be certain of. | ||
| acw (Acw)
New member Username: Acw Post Number: 3 Registered: 2-2002 |
I think it really depends on whether you really want to get a spider. I have been tempted by similar deals, but instead decided to buy a used modena and get on the list for the spider. I requested to get on the list for the spider as part of a 00 360 modena deal. I plan on recovering some of the modena over MSRP depreciation by having the opportunity to get a spider at MSRP in a year or 2. I will then use the spider for a year or two and should be able to sell it almost at cost. When I get the spider, I'll likely get on the list for another model, etc... Keep in mind that it is easier to get on a list once you own a ferrari. Once you are in the loop, you can enjoy these cars with minimal $ loss. $70K to get in the loop is a lot, and only makes sense if you must have a spider. ACW | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2001 |
If value and/or return on investment are priorities, I wouldn't pay over MSRP. As nice a car as the 360 Spider is sure to be, being a "volume-produced" and "entry-level" car, it is destined to be a future 308 of sorts in the Ferrari food chain. Additionally, the IPO's of the 90's have essentially become tantamount to the junk bonds of the eighties (the only other occasion when new reg. production F-cars sold above MSRP, BTW) and wouldn't be surprised if the wait lists shrink significantly as more people have to work for a living and new F-cars lose a bit of the social appeal desired by some of the potential owners. As a result, the new Ferrari market may be similar to that of the early-mid nineties. Specifically, if the car you like isn't on the floor (@ MSRP or less) it can be ordered and delivered in three months, or so. | ||
| TWA (Exoticars)
Junior Member Username: Exoticars Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2001 |
The prices will not drop as significantly as mentioned here thus far in my opinion. I mean, 5 year old 355s still sell for 110-125k. What makes anyone think that 360s will get anywhere near these numbers? By the way, MSRP is just that,,,,, 'suggested retail price'. It really means nothing. Market demand determines the price, not the factory's suggestion. I've been in the business quite a long time and have seen everything from the stupid PT Cruiser to GMC Yukons demand well over sticker. there is nothing wrong with paying over sticker if that's what you want and that's what the market demands. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 191 Registered: 6-2001 |
I wasn't around to see the premiums for the 328. I had no idea people paid $150,000 for a 328. Do all new Ferrari models command this kind of premium? If so, for how long? | ||
| SteveF (Stevef)
New member Username: Stevef Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2001 |
I also would never pay over msrp. But then again I think ferrari dealers are not allowed to take orders outside their area otherwise I'd call around for the place able to deliver quickest. anyway, my take is that by paying over msrp I'd be helping to maintain the current prices. I think ferrari is producing primarily spiders so I expect the spider prices to come down to where they should be relative to the coupe. It seems to me price and production are both close to their peak. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 608 Registered: 9-2001 |
I would never pay over MSRP for any automobile. Period ! A lot of people paid a million dollars and more for F40s back in the late 1980s. They all regret it now as they are selling them for $300k or so. People paid up to $150k for 328s at that time. I'm sure they regret it too. The 360 is a production car that will depreciate down from MSRP once the fools that are paying over just to get them without waiting get them and then start trying to unload them. Be patient. 360 spiders will be selling for $100k or so in a few years. As the cajun chef said, "I gua-ran-tee it " | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 189 Registered: 6-2001 |
According to the dealer (whom many people on this website seem to trust), the following is the status of the 360 spider as of today: 1) No replacement for the 360 coupe until 2004, and the spider in 2005. Replacement will most likely use same body, and be a "modificato", (maybe with the bigger engine?) since tooling for this body was all brand new, and they need to recover their development costs and make a profit. 2) Wait list for a new spider is 4-5 years in the US. I don't think the 575 will have any effect on 360 prices either-different buyer group. This is a boatlooad of money, so I am trying to cover alll bases. Still can't get over a Euro spider being $100,000 cheaper though. It makes me nuts to part with that kind of money for the privilege of owning a US version. | ||
| Jason (Jason)
New member Username: Jason Post Number: 15 Registered: 11-2001 |
The rumor is a 4.2L (hence 420) V8. There was a thread recently about what the badge numbers represent, usually engine liters or cc's per cylinder (456=456x12). I'm sure someone with more knowledge could elaborate. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2001 |
I gotta say it LOL. Naw the best car Ferrari has ever made is yet to come. It will be reliable, and with not timing belt. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Junior Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 159 Registered: 8-2001 |
Isn't the 4 and 5 series Ferrari's 12 cylinders? Its possible that they would bring out the 420, but unlikely without a V12, right? w | ||
| Jason (Jason)
New member Username: Jason Post Number: 14 Registered: 11-2001 |
I don't see the 575MM release causing the 360 prices to lower at all. It won't cause the demand for the 360 to drop. If/when the 420 Modena is released (rumored for announcement Geneva show March '03) then I would suspect the 360 prices to lower. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Junior Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 158 Registered: 8-2001 |
I am told that the 360 Spider is the best car Ferrari ever made- between the amazing engineering of the actual car to the aurora of it. 250k is a lot though. Seems like you are set on buying it- so go for it. I am sure if you wait about 6 months, prices will fall significantly- (do you need this Ferrari for the winter in NY?) I would say- wait until the end of April- when they unveil the 575 to the dealers- so prices can fall. | ||
| Louis Bevilacqua (Toby91)
New member Username: Toby91 Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2001 |
If you must have it now, thems the prices. I don't see a rapid fall until a replacement model arrives. You could order one, wait your turn (1-2 years I guess) and save 70K like I did. Just got my spider at MSRP. You could buy a new 745i or whatever with the savings. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Junior Member Username: Solly Post Number: 188 Registered: 6-2001 |
Just returned from a morning with Bud Root at Shelton Ferrrari. Have a contingent deal on a 2001 360 Spider, yellow/black, 400 miles, US version with 3 year warranty at $250,00, with my Dino taken in trade. Dino value not yey specified, but I told him I'm looking for at least $80,000. I have been following Spider prices, but there are so few around for sale that there is no consensus on market price. I have seen US prices from $249,000 to $290,000. Euros are much cheaper as I have posted earlier, but it seems everyone is warning me away from them. Please give your opinions on this deal, as well as opinions on where the market is heading over the near future. I'm still trying to convince myself that it is ok to spend this kind of money on a car. |