| Author | Message | ||
| Luigi Gatti (Luigi)
New member Username: Luigi Post Number: 23 Registered: 10-2001 |
Ernesto, could you elaborate more the differences in sound and performance between the 360 with Tubi and how it is without cats and the Tubi exhaust. Loudness difference, tone of the sound,etc... TIA | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 217 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yes, they are the Tubi straight pipes, no catalytic present. I'd be interested for any other 360 owner to check how many sensors their cars has. Ernesto | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2002 |
Sorry my mistake; they look like your Tubi cat-bypass pipes. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 10 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hmmm.... interesting..... You WOULD need to test air before the cat and hence have 4 sensors. The honeycomb 'filter' in a cat, that actually does the cleaning of emissions, can degrade rapidly if the exhaust manifold is providing excessive (-ly dirty) exhaust flow. You'd need a pre-cat sensor which would feed the ECU info, to change fuel injection etc mappings (sapping power etc) to make the engine burn as cleanly as possible tidying emissions (and, at times, necessarily slowing or modifying exhaust flow) before they reached the cat at all. Hence you get flat spots in engine power and torque curves where despite having a cat the car, in certain inefficient rev-ranges can't meet emissions regs and has to change its fuel injection mapping to tidy emissions BEFORE they reach the cat. This necessarily means having a sensor before the cat itself. However, using my line of logic... you perhaps would NOT need a post-cat sensor, given that the cat was reliable enough to clean up emissions provided that the ECU controlled engine didn't overstress it...........ah ha! Ernesto, my friend, to be honest, I don't even know what I'm looking at....I take it those are pictures of your car with Tubi cat-bypass pipes with the sensors plugged in....or are they pics of the exhaust BEFORE where the cat or cat-bypass goes...... | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Junior Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 247 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ernesto, thanks for the info. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 215 Registered: 2-2001 |
Arnaldo: The Ferrari dealer in on the Kennedy Avenue, all the way at the end with Porsche, Audi, Bentley, and Land Rover. Right now they have NOTHING in the showroom, but there are always cars in the service area :-)... Sure, send me a message when you come down and we'll get together... Ernesto | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Junior Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 243 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ohh, I forgot, the sensors on my TR are also before the Cats. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Junior Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 242 Registered: 2-2001 |
My TR has only two O2 sensors as well. I do not know about differences between TRs (and much less between TR and 360), but my stock exhaust and my borla exhaust both have a single O2 sensor hookup per side. Ernesto, where in P.R. is the Ferrari dealer? I am planning a trip there this summer and would like to see what they got. I will be spending a lot of my time in the West coast, mostly Boqueron area. If you are close by perhaps we can catch lunch someday. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 214 Registered: 2-2001 |
Well, I dont know what is before the cat pipes because we really didnt explore what was under that head shield where the headers/manifolds are. There could be another catalytic and O2 sensor in there. We were too tired to check! Anyway, some 360 must four O2 sensors because the Tubi pipes had the holes for four of them. Ernesto | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
Junior Member Username: Vikenb Post Number: 119 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ernesto, I think I may have been confusing the temperature sensor for another 02 sensor. Also, the '00 models received pre-cats in the exhaust manifold. There's probably another set of sensors after those???? Something to look into. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 213 Registered: 2-2001 |
Funny thing is, the two that the 360 have are BEFORE the cats.... | ||
| Harlan Mott (Hmott3)
New member Username: Hmott3 Post Number: 29 Registered: 12-2001 |
Why would you need 4? I think its a much cleaner design to have 2, less to go wrong. If you have 2 after the cats you can simply check if the air meets certain criteria, if it doesn't toss out a cats failed message. There is no reason to test the air before the cats, unless government regulations state you must which I doubt. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 212 Registered: 2-2001 |
more pics     There is one O2 sensor per side, plus one temperature sensor. There is another pair of (nonworking) sensors which I placed just to block the hole intended for the second O2 sensor. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 211 Registered: 2-2001 |
Well, it must make sense to Ferrari because my 360 has just two O2 sensors. Ernesto     | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 8 Registered: 2-2002 |
It doesn't make sense for the the car to have 2 sensors. You need two on each of the two exhaust lines; one fore, one aft of each cat for the ECU to see whether the cat is actually cleaning up emissions. How else would it work..... You can see the 4 pick-up points on that pic of the 550's cat bypass. | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
Junior Member Username: Vikenb Post Number: 116 Registered: 5-2001 |
>> My 360 is a MY 2000 car, so it is not an early model (as far as I know). << Mine is also a 2000 model (9/00 production) and I'm going to take a look and see if I have the other two sensors. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 210 Registered: 2-2001 |
Viken, My 360 is a MY 2000 car, so it is not an early model (as far as I know). I wish I could offer another explanation for the O2 sensor problem... Anyway, the O2 simulators should solve the problem of the Check Engine lights from aft-cat sensors on the OBDII cars. Ernesto | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
Junior Member Username: Vikenb Post Number: 115 Registered: 5-2001 |
>> My only explanation is that since the dealer here in Puerto Rico does not deal with Ferrari NA but with Ferrari Spa in Italy, the cars may not be US cars (I was under the impression that OBDII is a US-only system). << Ernesto, If you look at the parts manual again, you'll see that all cars have the four 02 sensors. However, it is possible that some early ROW cars did not have OBDII but you'd expect the early parts manual to say so. Anyway, consider yourself lucky that you don't have to deal with the check engine light. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Junior Member Username: Whart Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2001 |
Couple of questions: what other impact does removal of cats/change of exhaust configuration have to overall performance, given design parameters from factory?In other words, should you be increasing air intake,how does computer remapping get determined, etc. Are you guys capable of doing this yourselves, and if not, who would you rely on. I know Al Burtoni (sp) has some experience with this, at least as applied to Lambo's, but how would you get it done? I am assuming that it would require some creativity to get the car passed for inspection,too. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 208 Registered: 2-2001 |
My Tubi cat pipes did not have any mechanism to "fool" the ECU. It just had the brackets for the four O2 simulators (two of which I did not use). I purchased the O2 sims but as I said, never used them. Ernesto | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 7 Registered: 2-2002 |
I think (!) these are the infamous de-cat pipes installed on a 550 and a pic of them with tubi mufflers along with a pic of a stock 550 exhaust to compare and show how/where they all fit. I still cannot figure out where the hell they've been fitted...before or after the mixer node...very confusing! O2 simulators?? Don't all de-cat pipes have some kind of output to 'fool' the ECU? I'm fairly sure the Koenig de-cat pipes do exactly this without needing O2 simulators. P.S. BOTTOM PIC IS NOT MY CAR!    | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 207 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have a conventional Tubi muffler plus the Tubi cat-bypass pipes. Before I just ran the Tubi with the factory catalytics, and the sound was veyr nice. But with the cat pipes the car is LOUD. I would be surprised if I got pulled over by the police because of it. Although I can quickly upshift of shift in neutral and coast by, it will still attract attention. Ernesto | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ernesto, Do you have a conventional Tubi sports muffler? Or do you run Tubi straight pipes out to the back. When you say loud do you mean, "118db, police pulled me over Loud" or just loud? I suspect that the 550's engine is quieter in itself and I personally know, there's quite a bit of soundproofing around the engine bay which I don't think the 360 has. In answer to your question Bret, the car and the proposed set up is primarily intended for weekends and the occasional track day. Effectively road use. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 206 Registered: 2-2001 |
That is why I am still confused. My parts manual says the same thing - two O2 sensors per side. I was surprised to say the least when I discovered only one per side. My only explanation is that since the dealer here in Puerto Rico does not deal with Ferrari NA but with Ferrari Spa in Italy, the cars may not be US cars (I was under the impression that OBDII is a US-only system). I thought they would be since all cars here have to be Feralized just like in the mainland USA and must follow the same Federal laws and regulations. Maybe the local dealer found a loophole to bypass FNA. Maybe that is why we can get the 360's with the four-point seatbelts and other Euro options... I am going to stop by dealer to ask them this week... Ernesto | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
Junior Member Username: Vikenb Post Number: 114 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ernesto, That is interesting. According to the 360 parts manual, all (worldwide) 360's have an 02 sensor before and after (total of 4) each catalytic converter. This is typical of OBDII cars, BTW. | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 204 Registered: 2-2001 |
That is one question I wanted to ask other 360 owners: My 360 has only one O2 sensor per side, before the cat. As far as I understood it, all US OBDII cars had two O2 sensors, one pre-cat and one aft-cat. The Tubi cat pipes I ordered came with two sensor mounts each, because I ordered them for a US car. But, upon installation, I found one one sensor per side. So, I did not need the O2 simulators I had purchased and just plugged up the two extra holes on the Tubi cat bypass pipes. The cars runs great so far, no Check Engine lights..... Ernesto | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
Junior Member Username: Vikenb Post Number: 113 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ernesto, Hasn't you check engine light come on after removals of the cats? | ||
| Ernesto Sgroi (T88power)
Junior Member Username: T88power Post Number: 200 Registered: 2-2001 |
I just finished installing the cat bypass pipes (along with the re-installation of the Tubi) on my 360 last weekend. The sound is simply incredible, VERY LOUD. As it approaches 8,000 RPM it sound just like a motorcycle or an F1 car. I am beginning to think that it is TOO loud, but I am keeping it for now. I haven't had a chance yet to fully test it out, but from what I can tell so far, there is a slight by-the-seat-of-my-pants improvement. I'll have pics and more info up soonn Ernesto | ||
| Luigi Gatti (Luigi)
New member Username: Luigi Post Number: 21 Registered: 10-2001 |
Ernesto, were you able to de-cat your Modena? If so, what are the differences in performance and sound? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 1715 Registered: 2-2001 |
Just out of curiosity, where are you going to drive? From my experience it might just be a little loud. I'm not complaining though by any means, the louder the better. If I could I'd be running just headers out test pipes. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
New member Username: Manu Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2002 |
Following on from my post about aftermarket exhausts for the 550 under Technical Q&A I have done some very serious phoning, talking, researching and found out the following. The Maranello has a VERY complex stock exhaust; From each bank of the V12's 6 cylinders you have two exhaust lines which feed into two MASSIVE catalytic converters. These two lines then meet in some kind of mixer node, where they come out again and end into MASSIVE (once again) silencers. Ferrari are talking BS when they tell us that the servo operated valves on the silencers improve torque.... They DO NOTHING of the sort. They simply quieten the car for EURO homologation purposes. Exhuaust flow is obstructed at two points. The cats near the beginning of the exhaust and the enormous silencers at the end. For a truly discernible power increase the following measure have been recommended to me: 1. De-catting the car. The cats on a 550 are huge and sap a hell of a lot of power. De-catting the car alone, will transform the sound and deliver a substantial increase (the largest) in grunt. 2. Change the silencer. The power increase will depend on what make of muffler is bought. The tubi muffler is a third of the size of the stock muffler hence the improved exhaust flow leading to power increase. Personally I think you should junk the muffler altogther and fit straight pipes to maximise any power increase. I believe fitting a Tubi or Koenig sports muffler, would be, in this case, a half measure. I intend to have NO MUFFLER. Namely fit straight pipes. (see picture, under my other post, of Tubi straight pipes). This will maximise exhaust flow - make full use of the de-cat pipes and deliver the largest possible increase in grunt at this stage. (DON'T confuse this with fitting cat-replacement pipes. Here we're junking the silencer at the end of the exhaust). 3. Change the air-filters for high flow ones. Doing these 3 mods will utterly free the V12 to exhale optimally. There will be no obstruction to exhaust flow at all. Fitting the filters will improve engine 'inhalation' etc and complement the new exhaust. Total power now - upwards 520bhp. Bear in mind that tubi say that fitting their sports muffler alone gives a 10% increase - it doesn't - max it gives maybe 20bhp. Should you now go to a specialist and remap the ECU (increase octane sensitivity and fuel consumption) and you're looking at an optimistic best of around a max of 550hp. In addition, junking all the cats, silencers etc will also mean a not-negligable weight loss. Needless to say the car will sound utterly, utterly, magnificent - (I briefly heard a similarly equipped Koenig 550 and was left literally speechless). My only problem with this set-up is whether it will be too loud...this is where I need someones very subjective input. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Junior Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 162 Registered: 8-2001 |
Rob, any picture? That is definetly my favorite Porsche in the world... Such much more flair then the new 996 | ||
| Rob W. (Wolfturbo)
New member Username: Wolfturbo Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2001 |
I didn't go full disclosure with you guys. My Porsche is a 993TT modded out to about 480hp. While I didn't expect my 550 to be AS QUICK, I had at least hoped it would be in the same ballpark. I'll be happy if I can just get a little extra punch out of the 550. Any tips are welcome! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 614 Registered: 9-2001 |
I know bypass pipes made a noticable seat of the pants difference in my 328,TR and 348 so i assume it would make a similar difference in a 550. | ||
| LWR (Lwr)
New member Username: Lwr Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2001 |
Wow... what kind of Porsche do you have? I had an '01 996 C2 Cab and I'd say that the diffrence in acceleration is night and day. My 550 would leave the 911 for dead. On twisty roads that I am familiar with in both cars, I'd say that I could average 20mph more in the 550 purely down to better handling and more power. I'm based in the UK, so maybe its a Euro car thing. Going back to a 911 would be difficult now. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
New member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 24 Registered: 1-2002 |
I have never used them...but remember that the 550 weighs 3700+ pounds, and Porsche 996's weigh 2700-3100 pounds depending on model variant. Tough to fight the laws of physics... | ||
| Rob W. (Wolfturbo)
New member Username: Wolfturbo Post Number: 4 Registered: 12-2001 |
Has anybody out there who owns a 550 installed cat bypass pipes? I continue to be underwhelmed with the acceleration on my 550 vs my Porsche, but I was told over the weekend that cat bypass pipes will net about 40-50 additional hp and add some much needed midrange punch. I'm simply interested in talking with anybody who may have already done this so I don't have to be a guinea pig. For any tree-huggers out there, my interest is solely limited to offroad use, thereby saving the environment for all future generations to enjoy. Thanks in advance! |