| Author | Message | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 110 Registered: 5-2002 |
Good advice Dr.T any car I look at I will inspect first and then if it passes my inspection I will bring it to a pro it is always good to get an unbiased opinion. I am passing on this car not because I think it would be a bad move necesarily but my original goal for purchase was late next winter/early spring I have not found storage yet either. The price was what grabbed my attention on this car but I feel it is fair market for what it is. I have set goals to make 2 toy purchases one this fall and one next year and buying this car now would throw that off. Thanks again to everyone for all the input. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Junior Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 185 Registered: 5-2001 |
Robert, Why don't you just keep it simple. Before you close the deal on any 308 at least get a compression and leak-down test. This alone can be the best overall indication of the general condition of the motor. I did and I bought my car knowing it was in good shape with 56K on the clock. It just rolled over 80K this past weekend (five years later) and is still a strong running car. A $26k car with a bad motor is suddenly a $40K+ car. Remember this is more money then most people make in a year. At least where I am from. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 177 Registered: 1-2002 |
Robert, I have some experience buying 308's. One thing I have learned is that if these cars sit for an extended period, even if they have a lot of miles previous, they will be expensive to sort. Even at 25K, you could quickly be at 35K or more to sort out. 16 inch wheels became standard late in the 83 model year. 16 inch wheels should be figured as a 1500. or more plus. Like someone mentioned, this car is a euro or someone changed the bonnet. Neither is a good scenario. Euros sell for much less. A PPI is essential, but even if it's decent, 25K sounds like too much for this car. a 13 second 308 doesn't exist without extensive mods. 355's don't do 13 seconds. Dave | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 377 Registered: 3-2001 |
I think Tom brings up a good point about the top end rebuild. Usually 308s need a top end rebuild (heads) around or slightly before 100K. It is your opinion on the purchase but that is a good point to take into consideration. It doesn't make sense to dwell on the PPI if you aren't concerned about records and you plan on having it serviced right after you get it as well as not being concerned about the higher mileage. It just doesn't make sense. The PPI doesn't tell you about the tranny, the clutch, the electrical, etc. etc. It will tell the compression results and the variance between the cylinders and if a leak down is done where the loss is, intake/exhaust valve etc. Why worry if you are going to have the heads off anyway in a brief time period. Well you know with 75K on the clock that it isn't going to be flawless but you should be able to tell yourself if it is a beater. My point is by the time it is said and done you will be in the car more than what I would see as necessary. If you are trying to save money I don't see this as a wise move unless your are a complete DIYer. IMO needs 30K, most of the time you don't leave the shop with a $2,500 as more items arise when the car is closely inspected. A/C needs to be serviced. Well R-12 is around $100 per pound unless you have your license (3 lbs needed), plus if the compressor/clutch is bad that isn't cheap either, hoses, possible need to remove the gas tank to replace compressor hoses, seats look rather worn from the pics, etc. I am not trying to hinder your interest but I do want to try to show the other side of the coin. If you intend to keep the car removing the cylinder heads is an engine out job. I hope that this helps in some way. Again I am not saying that you may not enjoy this car I just wanted to portray another opinion/option. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 108 Registered: 4-2002 |
Im with Martin... records are great but an absolute make or break. Without records, you basically have to factor in a complete 30K service to be done immediatly. At $24K this seems to have been factored in to the price. Given that you will have a few other things done no doubt, you should expect to have $28K - 30K in the car when ready to drive but you will also know exactly what you have. Also, what everyone says about mileage is right on, forget about it. Have a complete PPI done, with compression test and leakdown test. As long as this is good, go for it. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 910 Registered: 9-2001 |
this may get some differing opinions but I would factor in a top end rebuild in the near future too. Check the paint carefully, looks like it was repainted - make sure its a quality job | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 183 Registered: 5-2002 |
Rrm-I would prefer the lower price car and do or have the work done by some one.Now you know what you got.If you are not a wrench turning kind of guy then you would be better payink $30k+ for a car.But I would want full documents on it. Also I think everybody I know unhooked the odometer on their 308 as soon as they got it. Seems dumb.Nobody believes it.I had a guy try to sell me a 78gts with 15k original.Yar right.The pedals were worn out.The tires were worn out.And where a 75k car cant hide from a 30k car is if the original rotors are on.Measure them.You cant hide rotor wear. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2311 Registered: 5-2001 |
e-mail me the vin and I will run acarfax for you. if it is a euro it will get no results back. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2310 Registered: 5-2001 |
This car sounds like a winner. I will say this: This is a Euro car, it does have Miles and they are likely correct stated miles, which makes the car worth more to me. The QV for $ 24K is a steal. Forget the service history. Get a full service with belts done. On the 308 that is somewhere $ 2500 in total, add this to your purchase price and you are sitting in a great 308QV for less than $30K, which is a good deal. All that service record sh*t is a hype. Once you do the full service everything is new. New oil, new belt, new everyhting. Who cares if the car had an oil change in 10 of 1985! | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 477 Registered: 3-2001 |
I've heard of Bugwhistle, it's right outside of Moosefart isn't it? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bugwhistle is my generic term for a one horse town that does not stock metric Ferrari tires. Toad Suck is a legitimate locale just outside Conway. I don't think it has a Ferrari dealership or a place to buy metric tires! | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 314 Registered: 2-2002 |
Bugwhistle, Arkansas? Is that anywhere near Toad Suck (apparently outside Conway)? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks for all the wheel info. Looks like an 83 with the 16 inch wheel option or an 84 up with standard 16 inch wheel would be the one to look for. I sure wouldn't want to pay big bucks for oddball sized metric tires if I had the choice for a more common size. That's one of those small points that could bite you at a bad time. Imagine trying to find a metric tire if you were broke down in Bugwhistle, Arkansas. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Junior Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 184 Registered: 5-2001 |
Thanks for the update. I did not know that 16' wheels were ever an option. I guess the only reason anybody would not get the 16' is to save money on the standard wheels. Back in 83 nobody could have guessed how inconvenient a metric wheel could be years down the road when picking out new tires. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 162 Registered: 7-2001 |
One other point to think about on 83 is the drive belts drive the water pump and alternator. The later Qv's have separate belts for this. Overtensioning of the 76-83 system can wear out the pumps early. That plus the other differences do add up. Id take an 84 same good condition as an 83 if I had the choice. The small but important improvements would be worth the money. The true dual exhaust on the 83 makes for great sounds though. That kinda would be fun too. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 376 Registered: 3-2001 |
Great point Paul. I forgot about that. Mine does have 16 in. wheels there too. Thanks for the info. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 364 Registered: 3-2001 |
I have an 83 QV and the 16" wheels were a factory option, look on the back side of the drivers sunvisor and there is a sticker from the factory giving you tire inflation recomondation for the Goodyear 16" tires. It also gives tire inflation #'s for the metric tires that were the standard eq. Options in 83 were: tires, rear airfoil, metalic paint, euro chin spoiler and AC. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 375 Registered: 3-2001 |
It is July of 1983. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 374 Registered: 3-2001 |
Positive is in on all of the records (tire changes) and on the original info that came when the car was new. I have seen many other 83's with 16 inch wheels too. It is fairly common to see them with 16 inch wheels. It is even in the 83' owners manuals if you look at them so it was definitely an option. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Junior Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 183 Registered: 5-2001 |
Maybe it's a late 83. That would explain it. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Junior Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 181 Registered: 5-2001 |
Greg, Are ypu sure your wheels weren't swapped by a previous owner? I cannot find any mention of the factory equipping the 83's with 16' wheels. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 372 Registered: 3-2001 |
Regarding other thoughts between the QV's here are some differences. It is really up to personal choice. The 83' is purely mechanical FI without Lambda sensor. 84-85 use lambda and now the car carries an small K-Jetronic ECU which can cause lots of issues if not grounded properly etc. There was thread about chasing this a while back The 83' has a true dual exhaust and external smog pump where as the 84-85 use pulse air injection that utilizes exhaust back pressure I believe. Pulse injection is regulated by a valve with a vacuum signal from the intake. There are other small differences but the ones that were just mentioned are what swayed my decesion. IMHO 83' was the perfect year for me because it incorporated all of the features I wanted and I was lucky that Ferrari made one with these features. As far as finding a 308 QV with complete records, low mileage; you will pay much more than $25K for a US spec QV with complete records regardless of year. It took me a little while to find a Mint QV. I looked for a while. Now the only problem is driving it since the mileage is so low. HTHs. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 371 Registered: 3-2001 |
Actually US spec QVs in 83' did come with 16 inch wheels. Mine came stock with 16 inch wheels from the factory. It may have been an option in 83' like metallic paint was. | ||
| Robert Rothschild (Rothschild)
New member Username: Rothschild Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2002 |
Really is a rush isn't it Robert? I'm sure you probably saw this one too but just in case, it's also in your neck of the woods (littleton, MA)...not quite as much of a bargain compared to the one you found but generally speaking looks like a good value and well cared for.  http://adcache.collectorcartraderonline.com/10/0/8/28274408.htm I concur with everyone's comments about the 84-85 QV, couldn't be more pleased. In terms of mileage? low mileage ferraris scare me. These are automobiles that were built to be driven and do not behave well when neglected. When left to sit for long periods of time in a garage, or otherwise abused by thier previous owners they die slow agonizing deaths and require large quantities of cash, sweat and tears to resurrect (think about the effects of oil, gasoline, trans and brake fluid, etc. sitting in an engine for months or years on end without use). Do not worry about mileage, worry about how it's been cared for over it's lifetime. As long as the PPI checks out and, more importantly, you can verify the service history. You're best bet is to find the nicest, cleanest, most well cared for example that you can afford...even go a little beyond that last factor if you can, there's nothing more expensive than a bargain ferrari. Good luck and happy hunting! | ||
| Vince Canipelli (F308vc)
New member Username: F308vc Post Number: 29 Registered: 2-2002 |
My 80 308 GTBi, came with 14"x7.5" alloy wheels and Michelin XWX 205/70 VR14 tires. I still have the new car window sticker showing this as standard equipment. So metric wheels did not come on the 1980 models. by the way, the sticker price on my 80 was $48,185.00 PLUS a $300 gas guzzler tax!!! | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Junior Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 180 Registered: 5-2001 |
Horsefly: The wheels on the pre-84 injected 308's were 390mm x 190mm and were factory equipped with Michelin TRX 220/55VR-390. My 84 308 has 16' wheels with 205/55 front and 225/50 rear. That is another reason to search around for an 84 or 85 308. You have many more choices of tires when you wear them out. Like Bruno said the milage on 308's is a joke. The speedo sending unit breaks. My car has had two. Not only that but you can reach under the car and unplug it if you want to. Takes two seconds. You think nobody ever did this this back in the 80's to keep "low milage" cars? Sure they did. I know people who did it. I have been following used 308's closely for 20 years and they all have 30K on the clock. Most had 30K back in 85 and they still show up for sale with 30K nearly 20 years later. Something is fishy there. The point is just look for one that you can get the most history on and one that has been driven somewhat regularly. Don't let the higher milage cars scare you. Nothing, and I mean nothing, is worse then a car that has been sitting for years. You get one with 12,000 miles and you may as well memorize your credit card # and have T. Rutlands on speed-dial when you start putting miles on it again. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 107 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bruno, one of the thoughts that crossed my mind about this car was if I was an average car enthusiast who didn't know much about Ferrari's I would check the body and drivetrain out and make sure they were clean,straight and strong and not give too much care about a sevice history but on these cars so much damage can occur from a broken cam belt and you also have to factor in the price of the service it comes down to a debate do I want to purchase a 24k car and put upward of 10k in it or do I want to purchase a car for 34k and put maybe 1 or 2 k in it. It is a roll of the dice either way and I don't think one way is necesarily better than the other. | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 175 Registered: 5-2002 |
The price seems inline for everything I have read. Mileage on a 308 is a joke. They all can not be proven without end to end receipts. Those cars are rare.I had 1 of my cars sitting for 10 years where the mileage was frozen and obviously the receipts and records stopped too. But it is a true 72k mile car. Buy condition.And I never use my air. It is a sports car.top off windows down.GO | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 473 Registered: 3-2001 |
Some late 70's and early 80's cars came with metric sized wheels... the 308, the BB... and yes, the Ford Mustang. Michelin TRX tires were the most common if I'm not mistaken. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 106 Registered: 5-2002 |
The metric wheels for Ford cars were from Michelin and were trx wheels you would have to get special tires such as 55 series instead of 50 series I had them on a 82 5.0 capri and they also came on Mustangs thru MY 1984 if I remember each tire was about 125 dollars as opposed to a higher performance tire of that era which would be cheaper. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dr. Cosgrove, When you say METRIC wheels, do you meant that they are a METRIC diameter and not a traditional 14 or 15 inch diameter wheel? My reason for asking: I once found a set of 4 brand new aluminum wheels at a flea market for $50. The guy running the place said that a previous "would be" customer wanted to buy the wheels so he took one down the block to the tire store for them to check out the price of the proper tire. The tire shop informed the guy that those wheels were for some oddball metric tire that came on some Ford or Mercury vehicles and that Michelin was the only tire company still making the tire. The price per tire was around $200. Needless to say, the guy passed on that set of wheels and so did I. Are you saying that the pre 1984 308s use a special METRIC wheel that requires a METRIC tire? Of course, I am aware that practically all tires today are sized in a metric manner, but they are still 14, 15, 16, or 17 inch diameter for American tires. Can you elaborate on those 308 wheels and tires? | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Junior Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 178 Registered: 5-2001 |
The metric wheels were standard issue on 308's up to 84. At least on the injected cars. I am not as sure about the carb cars. That goes for both US cars and the ones overseas. Ferrari contracted with Michelin back then which resulted in the metric tires until swapping to Goodyear and non-metric ones in 84. The 5 extra louvers longways across the rear bonnet was added in 78 to vent the extra heat from the cats which are just below them. That's why the pre 77's and Euro 308's don't have the extra ones. No cats on them. If the 83 car you looked at was a US model then the bonnet was replaced by a previous owner. I guarantee you that car had a different bonnet if it was sold here in the US new as a US spec car. Of course you could always just look for the cat sticker in the door jam. The bumpers are US so that makes things interesting. Maybe a former owner just liked that look on the bonnet OR it was replaced after an accident. Who knows. You're probably wise to keep looking, especially with that missing piece of history for ten years. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 103 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well I checked the car out today, the exterior looks a lot better in person the bottom of doors look like they will start to bubble soon and the chin spoiler has a small crack but other than that the paint looks good.Car has records from 83 to 92 same owner in mass. last documented 30k was in 92' and the car had 52k on it then that turned me off right there no record of service for the last 10 years. Car has 390mm rims speedo reads in mph but I noticed the earlier service records mileage was listed as km's exhaust was louder than any U.S. car I have heard and car had substantial power by my seat of the pants meter I would say 13 sec.1/4 mile car.Drove it hard for 20 minutes no leaks or smells after and car didn't get hot, checked all electrical componets and they all worked car also has owners manual jack and tool kit and odo shows 75k. It is tempting for me but I will most likely pass due to lack of service and also this is the first one I have driven so I have nothing to compare it too. Gee I guess that means I will HAVE to drive more of them! | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 101 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks all for the input. As far as the a/c goes I was thinking this dealer is probably not familar with these cars and maybe it is just a little weak. I base my info on 83 being the weakest year from the Forza mag. article on 308 buying + maint. article which states 84-85 have significant upgrades which set them apart from the 83 qv, but by no means do I think any 308 is weak and they are referring to durability issues not power as it is the same through the qv years.Having a ppi done is excellent advice and I will have one done on any car I consider. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 369 Registered: 3-2001 |
Doug makes a great point on the A/C. The clutch assembly can be very difficult to find on the other hand the compressor is a york style and can be purchased at NAPA. If it has a leak in one of the two lines that connect to the compressor then the gas tank needs to be removed to change them. The $$$ can get high especially if it needs a service. If you do the work yourself you should be ok. It would make a nice driver but as the mileage gets closer to 100K it won't be an easy resale due to the higher mileage and being a Euro spec car. I would disagree about 83' being a weak year I am not sure if you mean power wise or function. If you plan on keeping the car then it may not be a bad choice but if you plan on driving it for a year or two then selling to get something else, it may be best to look around. | ||
| Doug Meredith (Doug308)
Junior Member Username: Doug308 Post Number: 173 Registered: 2-2001 |
Have a PPI. If it needs a major service and the AC fix is probably more than throwing in some R-12, you could very quickly be into the car for close to $30k. With any older sports car such as this, make sure you have an extra $$$ for potential maintenance. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 368 Registered: 3-2001 |
Any US spec 308 in the 80's came with cats. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 367 Registered: 3-2001 |
When I wrote connected my intention wasn't the louvers but the Red rear cover that connects to the rear bonnet. Greg are you sure that the red portion in between the louvers isn't connected? (is yours similar to the one pictured at the bottom of this thread) If it is Euro is should be. On US spec cars the Red section is seperated by 5 or so black louvers behind it. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Junior Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 174 Registered: 5-2001 |
The connected louvers are on any car with cats. No connecting louver out of the factory, no cat out of the factory. | ||
| Neville Pugh (Nevpugh68)
New member Username: Nevpugh68 Post Number: 42 Registered: 7-2001 |
Agree with Greg .... spend 200 for a prepurchase inspection by a professional, best money you'll ever spend (might also bring up good bargaining points with the seller) | ||
| Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member Username: Owens84qv Post Number: 442 Registered: 10-2001 |
I have a '84 Euro and the decklid isn't connected. The front bumper, turn signal lights, mirrors, and configuration of the exhaust system indicates euro. You'll want a Ferrari-type shop to do a prepurchase inspection just so you know what things need to be fixed and replaced. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 366 Registered: 3-2001 |
The rear deck lid would be from a Euro since it is connected. My 78' isn't connected and it is a US car. If it isn't a US spec car then it is connected. It has Euro front turn signals too. If it has 390mm wheels, this would also point to Euro. (hard to tell from the pic) It appears to have dual dists. though. There was another Euro QV about 2 months back that sold for 25K that was appeared nicer than this one. | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
New member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2002 |
Robert: My main concern would be to check to see if it has had a rear hit. The rear deck appears to be from a pre 80 car: the rear cooling louvers are in two separate banks. All QV's had the last 5 rows continuous to increase cooling surface. Asides from that, could be a steal if the PPI turns up clean. Remember to get the exact date on the timing belts! I agree that the miles are not a problem if it has been maintained. Good Luck. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 100 Registered: 5-2002 |
I found this 83qv online tonight at www.carrollstauto.com if I can I am hoping to take a look at it tomorrow. Price is cheap and in looking at the pics interior looks worn engine needs detailing and mileage is high (compared to other cars advertised) mileage dosen't scare me anyhow. The mirrors look to me to be euro but the rest of the car dosen't show any signs of being euro, I also know 83 is the weakest of the 3 years but I guess to be honest the price is what is grabbing me so I would like the opinion of my fellow F-chatters. |