| Author | Message | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 450 Registered: 10-2001 |
Terry I agree it is a non-issue. Arlie, My statement was simply that Germans where Christian just as many Allies were Christian. It is well documented that during WW2 the churches blessed soldiers on both sides. Catholics (and others) on both sides prayed to God for victory. Who will he listen to? It's just like athletes who pray for victory over another team. Does God concern himself with the NBA finals? Instead of remaining neutral Religion became just as bloodguilty as those who did the killing. Religion should not get involved in Politics. Period. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 111 Registered: 4-2002 |
Of coarse it does not mean the German soldiers who participated in the atrocities are not guilty. All of the SS Einsatzgruppen soldiers who served on the eastern front along with the SS troops who manned the concentration camps should have been executed in my book. Same to everyone in the Nazi Govt who knew about it. As far as Im concerned, we did not go anywhere near far enough at Nuremburg. However, to think that some Waffen SS trooper serving in the 2nd SS Das Reich division was automatically a rabid jew hating monster soley devoted to ridding the world of jews is crazy. Most were just young men wanting to serve in an elite military unit, just like someone in the rangers from the US. Dont forget... the 5th SS Panzer Division, the "Wiking" Division was made up of volunteers from Denmark, Holland and Belgium who wanted to fight communism. There was also a French SS brigade. Anyhow... complicated times are too often simplified in history. Good example is the point made about the US founding fathers. I read a letter written from George Washington to Martha written in July 1776. It devoted 6 paragraphs to discussion of a new stud horse he was buying and made no mention at all of the events in the first continental congress. Funny what was on his mind as such historically significant events were unfolding. Oh yea, I really dont think Hitler and his boys were driven to a hatred of the jews by any religious motive. He viewed Jews not as a religious sect but as a seperate race. He cared not for what they believed in, but more that they were of an inferior blood line / race and were thus "sub-human". The Nazi's did not base a judgement on whether you were jewish or not on what you believed... but on physical characteristics or lineage. You could be a devout catholic but if your grandmother was jewish... you were on Hitlers hit list. What a total moron. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 493 Registered: 6-2001 |
Arlie: More than the soldiers knew what was going on. I lost an entire side of my family to that lunacy, and I'll bet that everyone in the town they lived in knew what was going on, and no one complained. After they had been defeated, of course there were no Nazis, no SS, no one was involved except those evil people. NOT! The war didn't start over the executions, but the 12,000,000 that Hitler and his boys killed, rank right up there with the all time horrible things people do to each other over religion. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 492 Registered: 6-2001 |
My understanding of this case is that an athetist with a 2 year old daughter didn't want his daughter to have to say the pledge, and he sued. Given that history indicates that a good many of the founders were athetists, I'm sure they would have rolled over in their graves when this phrase was added in 1954 by congress. If you look at the bios of a good many of the founders, you will see that their religion was listed as "deitist" (phonically spelled) which was a code word for non-believer. Specifically, Jefferson and Paine were non believers, and a good many others were also. The various claims by some that this country (USA) was founded by the deeply religious is not supported by the facts. Having said that, there is nothing wrong with one expressing their religion, it becomes wrong when we make others without our beliefs, express our religion, when they don't believe as we do. That is not freedom, and is expressly what the founded did not want when they seperated the Church and State in our constitution. We forget that the U.S. was started because people came here because of religious persecution in their homelands. Some of those people were non believers. If we truly love our country (the US, for those of us who live here) then the deletion of that clause from the pledge should be meaningless. As to the comments about California, yep we did provide all those things, but we also provided the following: 1. transistors, making current technology possible, 2. Genetic engineering (Herb Boyer who got a Noble and started Genetech) which has made a good many modern drugs available. Remember that California, if it were a nation, would be the 5th largest economy in the World and would have the highest standard of living in the World. The derogatory comments about California are just jealousy, in my humble opinion. Art | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 47 Registered: 5-2002 |
"but dont think it started as a save the jews crusade or that the average German soldier was doing anything other than his duty as he saw it." I guess this means that the German soldiers who herded the Jewish people into the cattle cars were just innocent "good guy" soldiers who had NO IDEA what was going to happen to them and that those soldiers were just "obeying orders"? I thought that excuse was ruled invalid at the Nuremburg war trials. That's why all those Nazis ended up dancing at the end of a rope. Except Goering, who took cyanide. The Jewish people were not rounded up into the Warsaw ghettoes overnight. I'd bet my non-existant Ferrari that plenty of German soldiers knew what was going on in 1939 because of the all-present anti-Jewish activity throughout the region. The average German soldier may have been doing his duty as he saw it, but I'll bet plenty of them only saw what they wanted to see. Kind of difficult to see anything when the air is cloudy with the smoke and ashes from the crematoriums, eh? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 110 Registered: 4-2002 |
Uhhhh WWII was not waged to stop Nazi Germany from oppressing European Jews. When the war began in 1939, it was because of Germanys invasion of Poland and the French / English pledge to defend Poland by declaring war on Germany. The USA came in against Germany when Hitler declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor. True, Germany was an evil power under the Nazi's but it was not the jewish issue that lead to war. It was military aggression. German soldiers did not fight and die because of an overwhelming hatred of jews. They did so because their country called on them, just like American, British, Canadian and all of the other allied nations. The average soldier fights and dies when his country calls. Politicians decide why, when and where. True that history has correctly judged Nazi Germany to be one of the all time great evil powers and WWII being one of the greatest triumphs in history for "Good"... but dont think it started as a save the jews crusade or that the average German soldier was doing anything other than his duty as he saw it. Next you will believe that the US Civil War was fought to free the slaves. As to the court ruling... what a bunch of baloney. I am a Christian and a patriotic American but I find the entire issue relative to God being mentioned on money or in a pledge such an amazing non-issue. It makes me angry that our court system is wasting time and money on such meaningless issues. Really, does this have a serious impact on anyone one way or the other? I wish the courts would simply refuse to hear such cases on the grounds that it does not matter. Politicians and the courts waste time on things like this when there are so many REAL issues. I dont care if they remove it or not. Just stop wasting my tax dollars ruling on it, evaluating it ect. ect. and start doing something useful. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 163 Registered: 7-2001 |
One doesnt need to be a hard core christian to defend liberty and risk ones life to serve our country. This is such nonsense. The pledge does not make me a better Naval Flight Officer or operate a weapons system more efficiently to kill the enemies of our country. I could care less about all this as it doesnt affect how I fly or when I fly. It doesnt affect my life at all. I love what I do and I love my country that I fly for. If you are more holy than me so be it. God or whatever created the mess of our world here has better things to do than to worry about this little blue marble. Just pay your taxes so we can build the best weapons so I can fly them with my friends to defend our oil supply and fuel our fun exotic cars.  | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
New member Username: Arlie Post Number: 46 Registered: 5-2002 |
U.S. soldiers (of all faiths) killed German soldiers (of all faiths) because Adolph Hitler was an insane dictator who orchestrated the murder of 6,000,000 Jewish people and attempted to enslave the continent of Europe under his power. It doesn't take a rocket scientist (Werner Von Braun?) to figure out who had the moral high ground in World War II! | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 449 Registered: 10-2001 |
Can someone explain the reason for the pledge to me? What is the purpose? I think as long as you are a law abiding citizen and pay your taxes that is enough for your country. I'm not American so maybe I don't get it, but it seems to me that Nationalism combined with Religion will be the downfall of all Nations, not just the US. Israel, Saudi Arabia, Rowanda, Malawi... look at all the trouble in the world because Religion has not stayed out of pollitics. I'm a Christian and as such I follow what Christ said "My Kindgdom is no part of the earth" so why are so-called Christians getting involved in pollitics? Look at WW2. Christians from the US killed Christians from Germany, both thinking God was on their side. The same churches blessed soldiers on both sides of the war. Makes no sense! Please don't flame me I don't have a license plate frame on my car! | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1163 Registered: 6-2001 |
This is going too far! | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 437 Registered: 3-2002 |
I was under the impression it was "under god" with a lower-case g. That way, all gods are included, nobody gets left out. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 468 Registered: 4-2002 |
LETS TALK ABOUT WAXES AND POLISHES BECAUSE THIS THREAD WILL ATTRACT OVER 300 POSTS AND ROB LAY WILL HAVE A MELTDOWN WITH THE FERRARI-CHAT SERVER.. | ||
| bruno bandaras (Originalsinner)
Junior Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 184 Registered: 5-2002 |
It seems this is all I get from that County in California.Gays,Liberals,American Taliban,Gay adoptions,Aids,ETc. ETc. ETc. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Junior Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 59 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mitch, So what caused the change for these words to be put into the pledge and onto money? anyone? | ||
| Eric Eiland (Eric308gtsiqv)
Member Username: Eric308gtsiqv Post Number: 310 Registered: 11-2001 |
Frank: Right on...couldn't have said it any better!! | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 67 Registered: 4-2002 |
The pledge did not contain the words "under God" until 1954. Our money did not contain the phrase "In God we trust" until 1956. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1012 Registered: 9-2001 |
If you will read history you will see that the seperation of church and state clause was meant to keep the state out of the church's business, not to keep the church out of the state's business. It was understood that the church would be active in the formation and running of the state. The trinity of God ,guns and guts are what founded this country and made it great. The outlawing of that trinity is what will be the failure of it. The courts are outlawing God, the state is outlawing guns and the political correct society is outlawing guts. | ||
| Nick Iliff (Nickdtm)
New member Username: Nickdtm Post Number: 6 Registered: 6-2002 |
I have never had anything against any sort of religion but have always believed that the government claiming to have a separation of church and state was a bald-faced lie. How can they claim such a thing when, as mentioned below, our money and our Pledge of Allegiance contain religious language, and the church system is not taxed? I'm sure there are other things I have not noticed as well. Especially with our new President, who I have no other problem with, who seems to take every possible chance to promote religion in the US. | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 318 Registered: 12-2001 |
Russell, LOL! | ||
| russell rosenblum (Rosenblumr)
New member Username: Rosenblumr Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2002 |
How about a new bill which says "in Enzo we trust." The new $100 bill will cost $140 used, or you can get it at face value but not for 4 years. The cost and denomination of the bill in 4 years has yet to be determined. But a $10 deposit is required now. For the impatient, you can get a Euro note which has been dyed Green, with handwritten words saying "In Enzo we Trust." This costs $90 + $30 in dying and handwriting fees, and can be yours in 60 days. Banks will not except them, but individuals will. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Junior Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 225 Registered: 1-2002 |
Remember, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals (based in S.F., of course), the nations most liberal, is also the nations most over-ruled... | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 308 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have often wondered why they allowed that language. I suspect the term "In God We Trust" on our money will be next to be challenged. It does seem that it is wrong to claim we have a seperation between church and state and have "In God we Trust" on our money. Now if we can just get government to tax churches, (they are a business) then we will have a true seperation of church and state. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 919 Registered: 9-2001 |
just saw that - the case was based in california. Here we go again - we made it a week without one of these | ||
| billy zissis (89tr)
Junior Member Username: 89tr Post Number: 200 Registered: 4-2001 |
According to http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56310,00.html The pledge is now considered unconstitutional because of "under God" What is this country coming to? Our enemies and allies must be laughing their heads off. |